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goodguy000

Old kitchen renovation - need ideas

goodguy000
9 years ago
Hi there, I have old kitchen from 1976 as per pictures I am attaching here. I've made 3d design of how new kitchen will look like, which I am also attaching. Note that I am not including picture of the pantry wall for my old kitchen however 3d design will show how it will look like.

I would like to get second opinion on 3d design and see if you can something wrong with the way it will be made. If you like it, it's great, if you don't then let me know what is it.

Unfortunately, kitchen itself is small and layout is very odd. There is not much can be done. I am trying to create L shape vs. U shape it was originally.

One of the dilemmas I have is the railing area which oversees the play room. I plan to install 44 inches bar counter-top there to add some function. That's the area I am struggling for ideas a bit.

Thank you for your help.

Comments (86)

  • boundsgreener
    9 years ago
    Hi. Great comments and suggestions here. The only suggestion I have to add, which was mentioned by Renovation Planning, is whether you have thought about tiling the entire walls? I don't just mean the one behind the cooker, but around the window walls, too. It looks really good with open shelving and solves the problem of working out where to end the backsplash. When tiles end at different heights around a kitchen it looks choppy and distracting. Here are a couple of pics that I hope help you decide.

    Contemporary Kitchen · More Info

    Riverfront · More Info

    Cow Hollow Residence · More Info

    Urban Farmhouse Kitchen · More Info
    goodguy000 thanked boundsgreener
  • Sunny K
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago
    What are the dimensions of this kitchen? Like emilyam819 mentioned, posting the dimensions of your room will help gather useful suggestions. I am redesigning a kitchen with similar layout but it has enough width to add a small but functional island with 42" clearance.
  • 4wksnwks
    9 years ago
    Your 3D renderings look really good! I noticed in the before picture that you have a toaster oven on the counter. You may want to consider a stove with a double oven (one small and one large). Another good solution would be a convection microwave on the pantry wall. We used to use a toaster oven all the time, but we like the (Panasonic) convection micro that replaced it just as well, and we love having the counter space back.

    I agree with the poster who mentioned that you may want to wrap the lower cabinets around the corner beneath the open shelves so that no one will bump their head.

    Do you have enough storage for pots and pans, cooking utensils, and commonly used seasonings and oil next to the stove? It wouldn't be fun to have to go across a walkway (where people might be coming through) in a hurry to get to the spatula or the salt while using the stove.

    Regarding the island discussion: You would need at least 3 feet of floor space for a walkway on either side of the island, preferably 3.5 feet, plus your island will probably be at least 2 feet deep to be useful. Without knowing the exact dimensions in your kitchen, it looks like the island would be in front of the doorway. People love islands these days, but sometimes they don't make sense in the flow of a space and therefore add more clutter than comfort. Form follows function, and all that. Your kitchen will still be beautiful without one!

    Good luck with your kitchen, we'll be anxiously awaiting the final pictures!
    goodguy000 thanked 4wksnwks
  • everdebz
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago
    Hi.... butting in to say if you have reached a plateau of sorts, what about this houzzer,who is 'starting over'? :) https://www.houzz.com/discussions/starting-overneed-help-dsvw-vd~1333061
  • goodguy000
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    Happy New Year everyone ! This is tremendous amount of feedback. Thank you all. I am trying to wrap my head around all the ideas you guys post here. The layout that er612 posted won't work because the jog area is too small. The indent is only 18 inches deep. I do appreciate your effort in drawing it. Thank you for that.

    I am also posting few more pictures of my old kitchen here. Please excuse the mess !! Some mentioned not having measurement of the kitchen. I will try to post measurements shortly.

    I am working on another design idea including some of the feedback you posted here. I will be done with this one within next 2-3 days. Will include redesigned pantry wall that will look more like the old one in terms of layout. The counter space is scarce therefore need more of it.

    Comments about island are valuable to me because I will try to incorporate island this time and see how it looks, if there is enough room and if it creates nice flow. If I go with an island then perhaps you could justify having an entire wall of pantries.

    There is no better way to start brand new year with the bang .. i.e. renovating entire house !
  • Lynn Baldwin
    9 years ago
    Your plans for your kitchen look very nice. There are a couple of things you need to consider before going ahead. One, your eating area above your playroom. Looks really nice, but unless your kids are angels, food is going to fall into that room! Even if you completely wall in behind the counter, food will fly down those stairs. Also, try to figure out an arrangement so you don't have to eat on stools, I currently have only stools in my kitchen, in a house I recently purchased and while they look great, they are beyond annoying. The kids fall off the stools, knock them over, and spill things. My kitchen is arranged in such a way that I have no choice but to have the stools. Do your best to ditch the stools; otherwise it looks lovely.
  • danamatzner
    9 years ago
    Loving the first and third new ideas for your kitchen!
  • nikitasmom
    9 years ago
    I found the way they centered the stove interesting in this kitchen as it allowed a cabinet to go onto the left side and the layout made me think you could possibly do something like this.
    Schoen: A House in the Hamptons · More Info
  • goodguy000
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    1. Not everybody is sold on having tiles on the floor vs. laminate. Laminate will be much cheaper vs. tiles. Both have equal advantages and disadvantages. I am leaning towards gray patterned tiles. I found some at home depot, attaching picture of some tiles I liked. I do not believe there is right and wrong here.

    2. Unfortunately layout is so that I can't move the door going to the formal dining room, and thus can't move the stove anywhere. It stays where it is AND if I move sink to the right then it won't be symmetrical to the window. I will not be able to install 12 inch cabinet to the left of the range. Perhaps there is a way to move the door, knock down walls and so on but I am not going that route.

    3. Simple range top would be great, clean solution but unfortunately it's expensive. Considering the age of the house I am trying to balance the budget with brand new stainless steel appliances but not going over too much. I am renovating to sell.

    4. Traffic when two people cook will be annoying, I agree, because range and sink are too close, but there is no way around it. It is also not a bad idea because everything is close i.e. fridge, range, sink and dishwasher. Everything is within a step or three.

    5. Landing spot near refrigerator. This can be achieved by 2 options:
    a. stick an island somewhere and have entire wall of pantries. (Still debating about an island)
    b. No island but redesign pantry wall to include counter-top space. Basically use pantry wall layout as it is now. See the picture of my existing old kitchen.

    6. For the kitchen space I plan to do 8 pot lights for sure. Maybe 10. It depends on the cost. I will check with electrician to see what's best in this case. I want to ensure the room has enough light.

    7. Room behind the stove is formal dining room. I have posted better pictures of my old kitchen right now. I was thinking to create a more open kitchen by knocking that down but decided not to, to keep cost down. I am not knocking any walls that's for sure. I am renovating to sell.

    8. Will post better measurements of the layout soon.

    9. cassbert. Moving stove won't work because I would have to re-arrange all the intake pipes. Right now intake pipe goes straight up and out the roof. Otherwise moving it to any other location then it is now will incur more cost, and perhaps complications, delays and so on. I have to sacrifice some clean look. That's for sure.


    10. In my next design I will do similar to what user phoebe3 mentioned. I will still incorporate cabinets along that indent with the 9 inch overhang. Counter top is going to be 24 inches deep + 9 (or even 12) inches overhang. This way you could put bar stools underneath, as well as have useful storage space. Let's call that area peninsula with 9 (or 12) inch overhang.

    However this won't be one nice seamless line counter top going from the range to the far right of the peninsula. It will still have a transition where indent starts of about 9 inches. The total indent depth is only 18 inches. Depth of the cabinets is 24 inches. It shouldn't be bad.

    To avoid transition overhang must be 18 inches ! Is that too much ? What do you think ? It's debatable I guess.

    I will not be installing blind cabinet/lazy susan in that far peninsula corner.

    Pony wall will still be built. In that space I will place a small but high 42-44 inches square table with 4 chairs. Nowadays people like to have quick breakfast/lunch or whatever in the kitchen and less so in the formal dining room. Attaching picture of the 5 piece high table/chairs

    11. Sue Levine. These are great suggestions indeed. Thank you.

    12. boundsgreener. I was also thinking what you are thinking. I will have to tile the whole area up. Thank you for posting some great splash wall ideas. These high gloss glass subway tiles would work nicely. Counter top is going to be grey with the sparkles similar to the picture you posted.

    13. Starting over is not an option for me :) I feel that I am very close. It's a small kitchen thus solutions are limited. It's either this way or that way. There could be infinite amount of options if I knock down a bunch of walls but not going that route.

    Thank you for all your comments ! It's more then I have ever expected. Will be posting new 3d design in 2-3 days or so.

    Cheers.
  • goodguy000
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    Ops, mixed up one image for the tiles above. Here it is.
  • goodguy000
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    Here are measurements. Not sure if you can see well with my handwriting
  • Sue Levine
    9 years ago
    I love my 42" table and my brown/grey tiles. You have good taste!
    goodguy000 thanked Sue Levine
  • emilyam819
    9 years ago
    goodguy, is that a real wood floor existing? Since you are selling (and if it is real wood), you might as well keep it. hopefully it runs under the peninsula.
  • emilyam819
    9 years ago
    Came up with some ideas.

    I think you need upper cabinets and a microwave hood with a cabinet above. So much less expensive than a hood, plus more storage.

    Also, I would try to keep the railing. Why do extra work unless necessary? Esp since you are selling.

    The round countertop plan could probably work with a square/rectangle, too.
    goodguy000 thanked emilyam819
  • Amanda Roderick
    9 years ago
    The floor, backsplash, & orange accent are too much. Tone it down. Also some kind of barrier to keep things from falling off the bar counter.
  • er612
    9 years ago
    Sorry. I should have clarified. My drawings were not at all to scale. 18" deep is perfect. In fact, I don't think the wall behind this example kitchen that I posted is more than 18" deep. Plus if you intend to sell, the size of this example would be perfect in your space because you would still have room for a table and chairs (although I wouldn't place a bar top table especially if you intend to sell as the higher table will visually take up more space).
    Craftsman Kitchen · More Info


    Since the bar area in this layout doesn't extend beyond the row of cabinets, you would still have room for an island. You would definitely have room for narrow island since it won't require seating.
  • er612
    9 years ago
    Again, not to scale:
  • Sheryl Horton
    9 years ago
    GoodGuy, your kitchen is one of the most expensive investments you will ever make. A pretty picture does not meant that your space is functional! The advice you have received is well intended, but please stop right now & consult a professional kitchen designer. Houzz should provide a list in your area or contact the NKBA a for a source. You will end up with a much safer & functional space for years to come. A Kitchen designer may find easily attainable ideas that you have never thought of.
  • Lisa R
    9 years ago
    Have you considered using the vinyl tat resembles laminate? The cost is comparable to laminate & most has an excellent warranty.
  • everdebz
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago
    Hi. I haven't read most, but here's how modern driftwood looks in a bedroom with grey throw, grey...
    SOUTH COOGEE - House · More Info
    Super Natural Classic Laminate Flooring 8631 Castle Oak · More Info
  • ahewitt402
    9 years ago
    I suggest taking out the wall between the kitchen and dining room, which I assume is the room to the left of the kitchen. Hopefully, that would give you room for a redesign with an island.
  • Anne Melanson
    9 years ago
    A few comments:
    Consider that with a tile floor every glass that drops is is going to break. Laminate floor it may not break.
    Consider rounding out every corner that is in the kitchen. Less painful bruising at waistline!
  • risaroos
    9 years ago
    My suggestion is to put an eating nook in the wall by the look over. Either a counter height or a bar height table would work - and allows friends to hang out or help with food prep. Put the table with the width against the look over and length jutting into the room. You only need space for four chairs or stools.
    To let light in, you could do the look over wall in frosted glass, or just make it a half drywalled wall.
  • ahewitt402
    9 years ago
    Since you are renovating to sel, I suggest that you explore the idea of selling your house as-is, subtracting the amount you planned to pay for your renovation and the amount of money you'd plan to spend eating out during the reno.

    We moved from the Midwest to California, where our housing dollars did not go nearly as far. We looked at hundreds of homes, and we wanted to redo them all. Our realtor suggested we look at fixer-uppers at a lower price point so that we'd have money for a reno. We bought one of those and turned it into a home that fits the way we use it.

    I don't see that your reno plan is going to provide a kitchen large enough for a family larger than 1 person ... or 2 people who don't mind bumping into each other. It will be impossible for an adult to work in the kitchen and supervise young children at the same time, which is why we moved from our first home to our second.

    I think the best market for your home is to a family with tight finances who can envision a remodel that will work for them. You can provide their vision with a suggested layout where you take out the dining room wall. If we had been looking at your house to purchase, we would not have blinked an eye at taking out a wall and moving the intake pipe for the stove to achieve the layout we'd want.

    Not renovating the kitchen while living in your home is also going to save you tons of stress. It's possible to live in a home while a kitchen remodel is going on, but it's difficult.

    All the best!
  • apple_pie_order
    9 years ago
    What's your timescale for selling?
  • goodguy000
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    Thank you all for such awesome ideas and feedback. It's been tremendously helpful when coming up with the latest 3d drawings. These ones are more or less 90% confirmed.

    Please let me know what you think ?

    I have read more posts since my last message. I will comment on those shortly, as well as I will post some of my thinking behind latest 3d rendering, and several challenges that need to be figured out.
  • goodguy000
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    ahewitt402 - thank you for your post. I am located in one of the most expensive areas in North America, and one of the most expensive in Canada i.e. Vancouver. I doubt family who will buy this house will have tight finances .. :)
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    Lux Home
    9 years ago
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  • phoebe3
    9 years ago
    @goodguy000 - I don't think being in an expensive area guarantees that the buyers will have money. Along with ahewitt402, I moved from a less expensive area to a more expensive one and had to buy a fixer-upper in order to get into the neighborhood I wanted. Just sayin'...

    Also, you will need to check with your building department, but international building code is probably followed in Vancouver and it will require that the guardrail overlooking the lower level should be 42" instead of being at your counter height, which is probably at about 30", as I see it rendered in your drawings.

    If you are experienced at remodeling, you will know this already, but you may find other "gotcha's" coming from the building department. For example, you may find that you have to rewire the entire house to get the electrical permit for your remodeled kitchen. My neighbor found he had to hook up to city sewer (we are mostly on septic here and the hookup cost him $20K USD) before he could get the permit to rewire his house. Of course, you may not have any of those issues at all, but be aware of the possibility.
  • nagoose
    9 years ago
    Looks good! Your 3D renderings of your new kitchen look very professional and pulled together. I like the addition of the counter next to the refrigerator. It's very functional and opens up the space a little. I would add outlets for toasters and coffee makers, etc.

    I wonder about that weird, awkward corner where the window and counter are. To me it just looks like someone just wanted to flip the house and it was the easiest and most cost effective thing to do is to add a counter along the window. I like emilyam819's idea of adding a round or rectangular peninsula so that you can have more usable counter space or a place for stools (like er612's idea). So the peninsula would go around the corner and cut against part of the window. Imagine a nice stone countertop. And since you are just renovating to sell this scenario may make it more attractive to the new buyer. I am not sure why you rejected this idea. Not enough room?

    I also like your hood fan and shelves. Shelves and not having a microwave cabinet opens up the space.

    Whatever you decide, it will be a vast improvement over what was there before!
  • Fred S
    9 years ago
    Canadian codes are a little different than US. BC building codes don't allow horizontal (climbable) guard railing.

    9.8.8.3. Height of Guards 1) Except as provided in Sentences (2) to (4), all guards shall be not less than 1 070 mm high. 2) All guards within dwelling units shall be not less than 900 mm high. 3) Exterior guards serving not more than one dwelling unit shall be no less than 900 mm high where the walking surface served by the guard is not more than 1 800 mm above the finished ground level. 4) Guards for flights of steps, except in required exit stairs, shall be not less than 900 mm high. 5) The height of guards for flights of steps shall be measured vertically from the top of the handrail to a line drawn through the leading edge of the treads served by the guard.

    9.8.8.6. Design to Prevent Climbing 1) Guards required by Article 9.8.8.1., except those in industrial occupancies and where it can be shown that the location and size of openings do not represent a hazard, shall be designed so that no member, attachment or opening will facilitate climbing. 2) Guards shall be deemed to comply with Sentence (1) where any elements protruding from the vertical and located within the area between 140 mm and 900 mm above the floor or walking surface protected by the guard a) are located more than 450 mm horizontally and vertically from each other, b) provide not more than 15 mm horizontal offset, c) do not provide a toe-space more than 45 mm horizontally and 20 mm vertically, or d) present more than a 1-in-2 slope on the offset.


    http://www.rdosmaps.bc.ca/min_bylaws/building_inspect/forms/Guard_excerpt.pdf
  • mam1022
    9 years ago
    Agree with nagoose and others about counter along window - you need some space for seating in this kitchen.
  • goodguy000
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    risaroos - about eating nook idea. Do you mean something like this ? See attached image. Also, we will staging the house thus will place high table and chairs to show how to use the space. Attaching 3d rendering showing high table/chairs.
  • goodguy000
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    nagoose - I am not sure I can see why it would look weird ? We lived in this house for 3 years. That kitchen dent was useless to us, it was always empty. Right now, we are adding useful coutertop space and cabinets underneath, as well as opening up the whole kitchen so it looks good.

    Another idea is not to put anything there under the window, but still get rid of U - Shape. Although, this would, for sure, reduce valuable countertop space.

    I am against U shape but may explore what emilyam819 posted, except not the round one, the rectangular peninsula.

    The whole kitchen area is just not big enough. Placing U shape makes kitchen to look small vs making it L shape, will look like it's open and airy.

    phoebe3 - 3d renderings do not take into account code as it's made to look good only, give me an idea. My contractors have a good idea what's the right way of doing things such as the one you mentioned about railing, pony walls and so on. I am also doing house inspection before starting renovation to ensure I didn't miss anything, and to avoid nasty surprises when time to sell.

    Fred S - I appreciate posting information on railing. I will discuss this with contractor next time I see.
  • Sharon Kaiser
    9 years ago
    So, so many suggestions, many of which are really good, but how do you sift through them to actually decide? Beats me. But here is one more to chew on: how about take your design above and just stop the counter on the sink wall at the end of the dishwasher, closing that off with an end panel. Still put a narrow counter along the bump-out wall under the windows (maybe using wall cabinets as base?), but now use that big open space from the DW to the pantry wall to the railing/pony wall to create an island that has cabinet storage underneath it and enough of an overhang on one or more sides to accommodate seating. It can be put on casters and rolled over to the railing/pony wall when work space is not in use, but also can be centered better for entertaining and prep work. I can see this as being fairly functional and visually pleasing, but am not sure if I am describing it well enough for you to see my vision. Whatever you decide - GOOD LUCK! :-)
  • apple_pie_order
    9 years ago
    Might be useful to tape out proposed new layout with blue painter tape on the floor. Tape out a table, too, with realistic space for chairs. You might find a small bistro table with two or three chairs works better than a four-person pub table that puts kids way up high. Or use a card table as a guide. Or the ever-traditional cardboard boxes.
  • nagoose
    9 years ago
    What you said makes sense and now that you have added table and chairs that countertop under the window makes more sense. Without them the counter seemed like a separate space and seemed to just be floating there by itself. But the table and chairs is now connected to this window counter. You can imagine less-used items stored here. It looks really good.
  • goodguy000
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    Sharon Kaiser - thank you for your comment. Yes indeed, small kitchen but tons of ideas. You are referring to a butcher prep table/island. I found one at Ikea the other day. Attaching pictures. This is a large piece but it can be used for 2 people to seat on one end. This mobile prep island can be moved anywhere in the kitchen and be parked next to the railing when not used.

    This is furniture piece that future owners can buy. Having said that, if I place this table then there is no room for high table/chairs. It's either high table/chairs or butcher island.

    apple_pie_order - Yes actually, I've already been doing a lot of that. There is tons of pencil marks in the kitchen walls, tapes and so on :)
  • Sharon Kaiser
    9 years ago
    Correct. I was suggesting one instead of the other, not in addition to. I tend to agree with another comment already made that quite likely too high of a table or whatever will visually take up more space, which will make your kitchen seem smaller. The lighter color of your example island will also open things up more than a darker or taller table, I think.
  • goodguy000
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    I believe emilyam819 is onto something. I will do 3d layout of that drawing, the rectangular version not the round table. I will make modifications to that but the layout will be U shape. I will create MORE space inside the U by pushing it further down that jog space with the low window.

    Some users suggested walk thru the steps of what's functional and we just did that. It makes perfect sense. That option might be a winner. Let's see. Will post it in 2-3 days. Thank you all for your support.
  • mam1022
    9 years ago
    Think you are wise to examine a larger U layout. If you look back in the posts er612 posted 2 plans and I think the second one (very similar to emilyam819 ideas) is a good starting point - of course the bump out as shown was too deep but the location of the peninsula is good or you could push it out towards family room even a bit further - you will gain at least 2 feet of space in the kitchen working triangle and that run of continuous counter space is invaluable and you can have people sitting and visiting with you while you cook. http://st.houzz.com/simgs/f6828de304a41a7b_7-0829/home-design.jpg
  • nikitasmom
    9 years ago
    If the U layout works you may reconsider the pantry layout to incorporate the microwave. Here are some various ideas next to the refrigerator. I know it is practical in some cases to put them over the stove but I am short so I would never buy a house with one there.
    Edina - Kellogg Avenue · More Info

    Kitchens · More Info

    Kitchen A · More Info
  • goodguy000
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    Guys, here's the U shape design option. Big thanks to all of you in helping me to figure out the right layout. Since I posted both versions of the layout here, so, what do you think ?

    Please excuse the scaling of this 3d, it's off, as you can see sink is not symmetrical to the window and there is only half a sink, but the point is to show how it looks.

    1. People sit facing the kitchen, meaning they can comfortably sit and sustain conversation with the cooking person, or just have a quick breakfast or a dinner. This is a big plus, as well as it's conventional to face the stove.

    2. Large countertop space. The space will be huge. I am gaining 24 (Dishwasher) +12 (Drawers) inches countertop space, to the right of the sink. Plus all the usable countertop space with the 12 inch hangover.

    3. Open up big space in the center of the kitchen since U will have more length. This means 2 people could cook in the kitchen and do their own business w/o bumping much into each other.

    To me this is more practical, functional, fun, and most important, not expensive to implement.

    My only dilemma right now is ... since I am installing shelves, where do I stop back splash tiles ? I have already picked nice Arctic Frost subway tiles 3 x 6 inches, and do plan to tile up the entire wall behind the stove, but what about the rest of it ? Do just up to the window ?

    Everything else has been picked and ready to go ! Hope to start demolition next week.
  • goodguy000
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    nikitasmom - Brilliant idea to modify pantry wall as per your suggestion ! I will heavily consider it !
  • apple_pie_order
    9 years ago
    Where are you getting cabinets from?
  • nikitasmom
    9 years ago
    I would probably tile the entire wall including the bump out. It could be a great focal, selling point for very little additional money. Hard to find images but here are a couple of ideas for you to see. Otherwise they should at least come up to right under the shelf and still be wrapped around the bump.
    Coastal Contemporary Kitchen Renovation · More Info

    Lady Fern Circle Kitchen · More Info

    Modern Riverfront · More Info
    goodguy000 thanked nikitasmom
  • emilyam819
    9 years ago
    Agree - tile the whole wall.
    goodguy000 thanked emilyam819
  • Dean Eshelman
    9 years ago
    Looks great!
    goodguy000 thanked Dean Eshelman
  • nagoose
    9 years ago
    I think the peninsula looks great! Much better to add more counter and a place for seating.

    I am not a fan of covering the whole window wall. But you could come up to under the shelves and just go around the corner bump out and not do the second window wall. You could stop there and see what that looks like and then decide if you want to continue up and cover the whole wall.
    goodguy000 thanked nagoose
  • nagoose
    9 years ago
    I guess there is no space to add a cabinet to the left of the stove?

    http://houzz.com/photos/20963548