Would 36" clearance around island be too cramped?
mshutterbug
April 12, 2013 in Design Dilemma
We are completely remodeling the kitchen on a home we just purchased. At the moment all demo has been completed so it's just a big empty room. It measures 11.5 feet wide. Went to a big box store today to draw up a cabinet diagram. I had already researched and learned that absolute minimum clearance around an island is 36", but 42" is more comfortable. The salesman helping me insisted that the clearance be no less than 42". So on the inner side of island, closest to the sink it is set at 42". On the outer edge he has it set to 47" because it's a main walkway from garage to other part of house.

This design only allows a 2 foot wide island. I was hoping to make it 3 foot wide. (It's intention is prep and serving space, there will be no appliances installed in it.) If I do the math correctly, I could have a 3 foot island with 36" on one side and 41" on the other, or 38.5 on either side.

It is typically only myself cooking, so I don't think there would be an issue of other family members trying to move about in the workspace very often, though I could see them on the opposite side of the island, walking through.

What do you all think? If you've installed kitchen islands with less than 42" walk space, did you regret it? Would it just feel too cramped at only 36"?

Thanks!
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Norm Walters Construction Inc.
Are you taking countertop overhangs into consideration?
April 12, 2013 at 9:16pm   
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Ironwood Builders
I've done it under duress. The dishwasher barely has room to open as does the refrigerator. The space is uncomfortable and the island ends up looking too large for the room. I never used the kitchen, so I didn't regret it....but I heard they remodeled the kitchen again just a few years later and reduced the size of the island.
April 12, 2013 at 9:18pm     
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mshutterbug
Yep, the clearance numbers take into account countertop overhangs. (No seating, just standard 1.5" or whatever it is)
April 12, 2013 at 9:21pm   
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zennifer
We just finished installing our cabinets, with a 39.5" space n one side of the peninsula (and 45 on the other). We did it knowing it would be tight, but balancing our needs. It IS tight. I don't regret it for our particular situation, but would try to figure out other ways first. Does your 38.5 include the countertop overhangs on both sides?
April 12, 2013 at 9:23pm   
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mshutterbug
Hmmm, thanks for the feedback Ironwood. I wonder...I could maybe split the difference and do a 2.5 foot countertop. Again, if I've calculated correctly (which I'd obviously check before moving forward lol) that would give me 40" clearance on each side (if I take into account the 3" of overhang). Maybe that would be a good compromise. Would I really feel much difference though with 4 more inches of walk space? I suppose I could just go with the 2 foot island and it would be sufficient. I'm just not sure which would make me happier in the long run...more prep space on counter or a wider walkway...hmmmm....
April 12, 2013 at 9:27pm     
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kimdee24
I have 36" and... yeah, the dw door blocks the path. Fridge has French doors so it's not so bad. It works okay for me but more space would be nice.
April 12, 2013 at 9:28pm   
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Norm Walters Construction Inc.
Four inches doesn't sound like much, but on holidays when two cooks are passing each other, old dance moves come to mind.
April 12, 2013 at 9:35pm     
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mshutterbug
Ok, so if most dishwashers stick out about 26" when the door is open...a 40" clearance would give me about 14" to squeeze past. hmmm....
April 12, 2013 at 9:36pm   
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mshutterbug
Norm Walters - thanks! So, what are your thoughts? What would you recommend? Obviously you wouldn't recommend bumping up to 3 foot countertops, and I can see why. So, would you say go with the 2 foot to get the full 42" or bump it up to a 2.5 foot counter leaving 40". Now I'm confusing myself, not even sure if that math works out lol...I think it does... the space between edge of counter and wall is 113", so with a 30" countertop, plus 3" total overhang, that leaves me with 80" of space, or 40" on each side of island.
April 12, 2013 at 9:40pm     
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Norm Walters Construction Inc.
If you are using a big box store, did they come out to measure, or are they relying on your meausurements as they tend to make you sign off if they order cabinets without doing a measure so that your are responsible if there is a problem?
April 12, 2013 at 9:46pm   
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Cindy Quinton
The back side of mine is 36, but the only thing that opens is the oven, and it is on the far end....almost not even in the path. For me, it was totally worth it, because it gives me so much more workspace, and it gave me an overhang for my family to sit at, and they sit there while I cook dinner and tell me about their day, which is, well, worth it... :-) But the reality is my sink, cooktop, and fridge are all on one side of this massive island. So once I get cooking, so to speak, I don't go around there much.
April 12, 2013 at 9:50pm   
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rouxb
Do you have to have an island? Can you gain the prep space you need with a peninsula? Not every kitchen is meant to have an island.
April 12, 2013 at 9:50pm   
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mshutterbug
We went mostly just to get a quote, but it's not a good enough deal so my husband will be building the cabinets himself. He did this in our last house when we remodeled (added to existing) the kitchen, and frankly his cabinets were more solid than the half that were existing. He'll verify all the measurements again before proceeding....
April 12, 2013 at 9:53pm   
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Norm Walters Construction Inc.
Without seeing a drawing it makes it difficult to give a valid opinion.
April 12, 2013 at 10:02pm   
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mshutterbug
I should note too that just looking at the new cabinets you couldn't tell that half of them were not original :)
rouxb - I did give some thought to doing a peninsula but the layout seems to make the most sense with an island... I don't have a diagram handy or I'd attach it, but basically the room is 11.5 x 20, with wall space only on one side, the pathway past den and dining area on the long wall. Not sure if that makes sense, but it just didn't seem to work with a peninsula..
April 12, 2013 at 10:03pm   
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mshutterbug
I'll try to attach a drawing tomorrow. Would love to hear your opinion :)
April 12, 2013 at 10:04pm   
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Norm Walters Construction Inc.
mshutterbug, I just realized (duh) that you are also the one doing the bathroom remodel. Your husband is going to be a busy guy.
April 12, 2013 at 10:07pm   
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rouxb
A sketch would be great!
April 12, 2013 at 10:08pm   
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Ed
mshutterbug, another idea: in addition to doing all the calculations and drawing accurate, scaled diagrams, I've found it also helps a lot to actually go to your kitchen space, and use paper or cardboard paper to do mock-ups of your island, and see how you feel to physically move all around it, imagine you doing your normal activities in the kitchen. Similar for choosing shower door sizes, dining table sizes, etc. :)
Numbers and diagrams on paper (even 3D renderings!) are one thing. Actually physically moving around the space is another all together. :) Please post photos of your progress. Good luck.
April 12, 2013 at 10:19pm     
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kathy
How long will your island be? If you really want some storage and some seating, what about having cupboards that are only 12" deep along main part of the island? Plus your 12" overhang for seating gives a 2 ft deep island, but still has seating. If the island is long enough, one or both ends could be 24" deep - perhaps with doors opening pependicular to the main run of the island?
April 12, 2013 at 10:25pm   
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kathy
eeks! mshutterbug is tied up for sure! I just posted on your bathroom dilemma, as well.
April 12, 2013 at 10:35pm   
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kathy
If your island isn't very long, then what about open shelves below the counter? Storage for mixing bowls, some larger pots, baskets holding tea towels and napkins....
April 12, 2013 at 10:39pm   
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mshutterbug
Thanks guys! Gonna come back to this tomorrow to read the remaining comments and provide a diagram... yep, my husband is going to be busy with this remodel. It's pretty crazy... he's done almost all the demo at this point. We sold our old house last month and are living temporarily with my parents.I'm scheduled to be induced with our third child on Tuesday morning. Umm...yeah, a little craziness around here. But he's motivated to get all the work done. And I'm motivated to get him plans for what he's going to be doing LOL!
April 12, 2013 at 10:50pm     
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Stamps Design Services
The problems come up when you are trying to load the dishwasher, open the fridge or oven and someone wants to pass through.... with an 11'5"width , I would recommend a galley kitchen set up....
April 12, 2013 at 10:56pm   
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mshutterbug
PS. We aren't going to rush the design decisions... The bathroom is not yet demolished so we are going to put it on the back burner... I'll keep working on it until we decide what to do. The kitchen, on the other hand, is an empty space. He has to install all the flooring though before he can start on the actual kitchen itself so I've got some time to get the layout right. Once I've settled upon the layout, I do want to get over there and tape out the floor and put some boxes etc to get a feel for how it will be to move about the space.
Thanks again and goodnight :)
April 12, 2013 at 10:59pm     
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onthefence
I really don't think I'd do 36". Day in, day out it IS cramped.

We too have a narrow kitchen. I've been planning a remodel longer than I care to discuss ;-) However, we tore out a badly placed peninsula. I measured out 36" walkway on one side and 40 on the other. It seemed do-able. Since we are pre-remodel though, I wanted to test it IRL so we got an Ikea portable kitchen island.

With most normal activity we're OK. There are times though that I need to get into the lower cupboards and either have to crouch down or get on my knees. Thankfully with the Ikea island, I can just push it out of the way. A built in island wouldn't give me that flexibility.

If your intention is only prep and serving space, perhaps a movable island would give you a bit more flexibility? I know after living with our current setup for a while that the allowances that looked OK on paper just aren't as functional as I need them to be.
April 12, 2013 at 11:44pm     
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feeny
If I were in your situation I wouldn't do a built in island, but I'd build or buy a movable one in a size that offered a bit more clearance. That way if you end up feeling it is cramped you don't have a demolition job.
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April 13, 2013 at 4:45am     
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songster54
36" is the minimum required space. 42 is better. You could add counter top space, in the form of a drop leaf. running the entire length of your island. It would provide the serving space and work space you need, while not depriving you for the 42" between counters. They did this all the time in the 30's and 40's. when kitchens were tiny and it worked great
April 13, 2013 at 5:06am   
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soberg
The big box salesman is absolutely right on the clearances, good for him! Don't skimp on your kitchen clearances, it will be an eternal irritation if you do. I like feeny's idea of a movable island as it can be wider, and you don't want appliances in the island any way.
April 13, 2013 at 5:18am     
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Norm Walters Construction Inc.
Considering the big box stores use 2020, it's not rocket science since the red light comes on when you attempt to negate NKBA guidelines.
April 13, 2013 at 5:21am   
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Peggy Corrigan
mshutterbug...Love your ambition good luck with choices and new "addition" to the family. We are also doing a big remodel and addition to a little cottage.. Thinking of a moveable island in my Kitchen...more flexiblility.
April 13, 2013 at 5:35am   
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zennifer
Movable island sounds great! Best of all worlds. Or, a2' with flip up counters at the ends...
April 13, 2013 at 6:08am   
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onthefence
The pics Feeny shows above are great! There's a movable island for just about any kitchen style.

The other great thing about a movable island is that it can be whatever/whenever you need. If you have a gathering and want to clear the center of the kitchen, you can locate it somewhere else or at a different angle in your kitchen and still have the serving space.
April 13, 2013 at 11:37am     
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mshutterbug
Those are lovely images :) My preference is still a fixed island, but I'm going to give that idea some thought! Got totally sidetracked working on bathroom layout...which is pretty silly considering we can move into house without getting the bathroom layout figured out. Even if we demolish that bathroom (which it hasn't been yet) there is another full bathroom we could use. LOL! The kitchen, on the other hand, is completely demolished. So, we need to get that figured out... husband is still working on demo and then will be installing the floors, so I've got some time to work on it (as if I'll have time after Tuesday! lol)

To recap - the kitchen is essentially shaped like a wide U, at 20' x 11'7". To the right is the family room and a hallway to the garage and powder room. To the left is an open area, that is dining room, living room and hallway to bedrooms. I could have kept the walls in place and put counters on both sides of the 11'7" space, but I wanted to open it up to the dining room, which means we really only have one wall for cabinets. I like the idea of an island in the center to use as a prep and serving area. Or maybe I just want a big shiny surface to clean ;)

I'm attaching some pictures of the current kitchen as well as a diagram of what I have in mind. First is the kitchen pre-demo, then the view from living room pre-demo, next is the same view after demo (but before the ceiling was removed, and floor not yet raised). Finally a diagram showing the dimensions and proposed layout. (I know the range is a little outside of the ideal for the work triangle, but it seemed to make the most sense there even if it is a couple feet further than ideal. And I know I could have put a cooktop on the island, but I don't think we have the width for that, and I also want to get a freestanding range/double oven).

Would LOVE any feedback!
April 13, 2013 at 5:01pm   
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April 13, 2013 at 5:10pm   
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mshutterbug
Just now seeing the other replies from last night.

Awww Norm... I didn't see any red lights or anything. He seemed to know his stuff...then again I got the impression he did it day in and day out. I've only just started researching and I know the official clearance requirements ;)

Peggy - thanks :) good luck on your remodels! At least these projects are a good distraction from worry over the upcoming induction, recovery, lack of sleep, etc lol!

Hmmm... Y'all are making a good case for a moveable island. I do like the idea of moving it for a gathering etc...

I think even if it's not moveable I could get away with a 2.5' wide island and not feel toooo cramped. Gonna have to look over my plan and give it some more thought :)
April 13, 2013 at 8:16pm   
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Norm Walters Construction Inc.
shutterbug, post a pic of your plan
April 13, 2013 at 8:21pm   
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rouxb
The plan is posted up a few
April 13, 2013 at 8:22pm   
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zennifer
Why not counter depth fridge? It looks like it might save you precious inches for the island you want?
April 13, 2013 at 8:26pm     
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mshutterbug
Husband doesn't want to spend the extra money...and I don't like the idea of losing storage space. He says "I don't want to spend more for less" lol :) I've heard you can sink a standard a little bit into the drywall but I don't know how feasible that is. I'm not sure if my diagram is an accurate representation of how far out the fridge will stick (that's the only element on the drawing that isn't precise. But I think I've overestimated that if anything.)
April 13, 2013 at 9:13pm   
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Ed
mshutterbug, I agree with zennifer. you may want to shop around and look for good deals on counter-depth fridges. If you're lucky to find a good deal, you don't necessarily have to pay more. "spending more for less" is not exactly correct -- the counter depth fridge gives you a bit less storage, but _more_ space in the kitchen, plus a _better_ look (more flushed) with your counters. With a standard depth fridge, you'll see some of its two sides, and usually the side is not very pretty (grey, or black? I've not seen stainless sides). With the counter-depth fridge, you would see less of its sides. Of course, this is your kitchen -- you should do what you like. But from looking at that plan, the standard-depth fridge sticks out like a ... :)
April 13, 2013 at 9:37pm   
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Wow Great Place
Here's my two cents.
I would forget about the "U" shape, and not have the cabinets return on the far right, (the wall with the doorway in it). I would then swap the fridge and oven positions, and make the pantry a 30" deep pantry, with a 30" deep panel beside the fridge so that a standard depth fridge will LOOK built in.
You have tons of room for an island on the width of the room (139" wide room leaves plenty of space for a 30" wide island, IF you leave 42" for traffic on either side. If you reduce the traffic path to 40", it gives a wee bit more overhang for the island, if you do decide you want barstools.)
By swapping the fridge and oven, and removing one arm of the "u", you have no issue with the length of the island, and can take it to 90" or so. (Your only tight spot would be from the corner of the island to the corner of the fridge, depending where you put fridge)
I'll scan a napkin sketch and post it in one sec.....
April 14, 2013 at 5:53am   
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Wow Great Place
Here you go....pardon the messy sketch. I assumed the fridge would be about 36" deep, with doors and handle, but usually having a pantry beside it at 30" deep covers the black sides of the fridge so just the stainless doors poke out past the cabinets.
April 14, 2013 at 5:59am     
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zennifer
Price out counter depth and sales before saying no. We just bought a counter depth that had only .5 cubic foot less of storage space than our old standard, in the same width. It's taller, but that's ok. We bought it as a floor model for $1100...and it's a mid rabgeC not the bottom if the counter depth price range. Our whole kitchen to the studs remodel is $10k and we are building those cabinets, etc; we decided that in our small space those 4 inches were very precious.
April 14, 2013 at 6:46am     
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zennifer
You are paying for floor space; that's worth something. You aren't paying more for nothing, but more for clearances and floor space.
April 14, 2013 at 6:47am   
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mshutterbug
Thanks everyone!

Yeah - I've made the case to him, and if I really pushed it I'm sure we could make a counter-depth work. But after reading some reviews and looking at specs I really don't want to give up the space inside if I can avoid it. I love to cook and use a lot of fresh produce. I've read (could be wrong and I'm sure it depends on the model you buy) that you lose precious space in the produce drawer (which makes sense since - if the fridge is shallower the drawers would be as well). Having said that, I obviously don't want to get the deepest fridge possible and have it stick out looking ridiculous.

Thanks zennifer - I will definitely have to shop around!

In my drawing I wasn't sure what depth to make the fridge (it was the only item I didn't have an exact measurement to use), so I made it 36" deep, based on the dimensions of a bestselling fridge in the style I want. It says the depth (WITH handles) is 35.625. Would you use this measurement or the without handles measurement where the majority of your body would bump into?

Wow Great Place - thank you!! That's a really intriguing idea! Now, what would be the benefit to moving the fridge to the other side, rather than removing the right side cabinets and doing the same thing with the fridge/pantry where it is? I actually think I prefer your idea, I'm just wondering what the reasoning is behind moving the fridge vs. just taking out that right side counter.... What's cool about your idea is I was originally trying to figure out how to put the fridge on that far right wall in order to provide a little more clearance on that left side where we walk in from the bedrooms and living area. And because I like the idea of bringing the groceries in through the garage and being close to the fridge to put them away. It puts that "leg" of the triangle even a little further than the range was originally, but I actually think the range is a more important part of the triangle from a cooking perspective.

Obviously there wasn't enough room to put the fridge on that wall without creating a weird corner. But your idea solves that problem, and puts the deepest cabinet in an area of the kitchen where there won't be as much traffic. (Maybe I just answered the question I originally asked? lol). And I would only really lose about 3 feet of countertop. Is POT "pullout" or a cabinet for pots? :) I'm going to plug this into my grid and see how I can make the island work, but it definitely looks like a good solution! I would LOVE to be able to fit barstools for my kiddos to sit at while I'm prepping food. I just haven't been able to make the width of the island work for an overhang large enough. Isn't the minimum comfortable overhang about 12"?

One final question/request for opinion... The salesguy suggested cutting the window down to 5.5 feet instead of 6 so that I could fit a 15" upper cabinet next to the sink instead of a 9" cabinet. While I like the idea of the wider cabinet (I don't think I could even fit my spices in a 9" cabinet LOL), I hate to give up even more window space. We are already taking out almost 4 feet of window, in order to get sufficient upper cabinet space. I was willing to do that in part because I really want that cabinet space and in part because I don't think it will make a huge difference. The kitchen will get terrible natural light no matter how many windows we have because there is a very wide overhang at the front of the house and it's facing west (it's the only exterior wall in kitchen). We will get some through from the windows in the dining/living and family rooms. Trying to talk hubby into putting in solatubes at some point in the future, but that's definitely farther into the renovation ;)
April 14, 2013 at 9:30am   
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Wow Great Place
Hi again!
Reason I would put the fridge over there is to avoid having a big dark mass of pantry and fridge blocking the light from the living/dining/family room.

As for the overhang, 12" is quite generous. I have taken the overhang down to about 8" when space was tight, and once down to 6" (though the knee space under the counter got a little snug in that scenario)
If you are doing granite or quartz counters, you can always decide on the overhang at the time they come to measure for the counters, just use a big piece of cardboard to see what "feels" right for you!
And yes, "pot" refers to pot drawers, so one shallow drawer at the top, with two deep drawers below for pots, storage containers, dishes, etc. the shallow drawers become the perfect depth for cutlery, spatulas and spices. I have several images on my profile that reflect this....look through "Champlain kitchen" and "Jill & John kitchen" to see pot drawers as well as standard depth fridges that have extra deep pantry beside them! And my project "Westmount kitchen" was done in a kitchen that was 11'4" wide, WITH an island AND barstools!

Oh and keep your window big! You'll still have plenty of wall space for upper cabinets!
April 14, 2013 at 9:53am   
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mshutterbug
Thanks Wow :) So, you'd suggest keeping the 6' window or actually bumping it up even bigger...? We are replacing two windows (one is just under 6 feet and the other is just under 4', but one is a couple of inches too low to put a counter there. I like the idea of one big window with cabinets on either side. Since we're replacing all the windows anyways, we can basically just put in whatever makes the most sense.

You make some excellent points and I really appreciate the idea! Like I said, it hadn't even occurred to me to take out that far counter, but it makes perfect sense to do it that way!
April 14, 2013 at 10:11am   
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Wow Great Place
I wouldn't go smaller on the window, 6' seems like a nice size! Once you map things out with the upper cabinets, you may decide to go even wider, as I think this will be a great kitchen, with ample storage!
April 14, 2013 at 10:21am   
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mshutterbug
Thanks Wow! I'm really getting excited about it... I think it's going to work out really well. Need to just fine tune a bit and then lay it out on the floor to be sure it feels right. Thanks again - I love the change you made :)
April 14, 2013 at 1:28pm   
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Norm Walters Construction Inc.
shutterbug, just a little tip about installing two lazy susans between walls, you are going to need an extended trimmable stile on one of them, or on the cabinet next to one of them.
April 14, 2013 at 2:36pm   
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mshutterbug
Love the photos Wow Great Place - thanks for sharing :)
Don't know exactly what that means Norm...There will be one lazy susan in the left corner for sure, but I'm leaning toward the idea of removing the counter space on the right. I'm not sure when else you'd install one but in a corner...At any rate - thanks for the tip! I'm sure my husband will know what it means better than I do :)
April 14, 2013 at 2:48pm   
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mshutterbug
Quick question Wow - on your Westmount project, do you remember how wide the island was and how much of an overhang? Looks like you used the space really well!
April 14, 2013 at 2:53pm   
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Wow Great Place
Thanks! I love doing kitchens!!
The Westmount island was 33" wide (countertop), which included a 1" overhang at the sink side, 24" wide lower cabinets, and an 8" overhang for the barstools. We had 36" from counter to counter between the island and the cooktop wall, though the cooktop wall was 27" deep to accommodate an issue we had with the wall ovens. This left approx 40" on the barstool side (from memory)
April 14, 2013 at 3:42pm     
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mshutterbug
Awesome - thank you :)
April 14, 2013 at 9:10pm   
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soberg
In evaluating fridges, usability of the storage space is also a factor. Counter depth fridges make the food in storage more visible and accessible and there is less digging for items.
April 15, 2013 at 5:43am   
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mshutterbug
Hey guys - I'm back to this... as mentioned on another thread, my induction turned into an emergency c-section and it's been taking me longer than expected to recover. But husband is back at the renovations and we need to figure out what he's doing with the wall in the kitchen - whether and how much he needs to extend it to accommodate layout. I could really use some more sets of eyes to look at these two layout options. I threw in the clearance paths just to visually see how it would flow. (I do intend to tape off/place some boxes before making a final decision.) The cabinets are all flexible...I just kind of put in sizes that seemed to work for the space. Mainly I'm trying to figure out placement of fridge, dishwasher, range to figure out what will give me the best flow and workspace.

I moved the window from the center of the wall to the left cause if the window is centered one of the arches would cover half the window. Eventually we hope to eliminate the arches, but we aren't going to design the kitchen with that in mind because the arches are part of the support structure and if we get rid of them it will be a very costly project. (I'll attach a picture)

I've been playing with two layouts - one that puts the fridge, sink, and range on the same (lower) wall, and one that puts the range on the left -hand wall. Also - trying out a 6 ft window in one set and a 7 ft in the other. As you can see, if I put in a 7 ft window I'll have an awkward space to fill between the sink and the lazy susan corner in order to center the sink under the window. I tried with an 8 ft window as well, but I just don't think it will give me enough upper cabinet space. I can move the window down further on the wall, but I don't want to move it too far or like I mentioned, the light will be blocked by the beam from the arch. To place it in the center of the arch I would start a 6' window 28" from the left wall, or 22" from left wall for a 7' window (if we did the math correctly lol). As shown, it starts 18" from left wall, which should be fine. It doesn't need to be centered in the arch since it will extend beyond the edges...I just don't want the center to be blocked by the support beams...

Thoughts? My sleep-deprived, hormonal mind is probably missing something...what is it? Which layout makes the most sense? Or, something different that I haven't thought of?
April 28, 2013 at 2:45pm   
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Dullea and Associates Inc.
After reading through the first part of the tread I was going to suggest splitting the difference and go with a 30" island. Looks like someone beat me to the punch. I always recommend a minimum of 42" of clearance between the working counter and the island. You might want to push the island a couple of inches toward the wall.
April 28, 2013 at 3:02pm   
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Wow Great Place
I would stop trying to centre the sink on the window, and see what happens. There is no rule that says the sink MUST be in front of the window (though when possible, I do try to it it there) and there is also no rule that says it must be centered within that window!
I would try keeping the sink in front of the window, but push it closer to the fridge, while staying within whatever size window you plan for.
Reason?
Because in almost every kitchen I do, when I ask people about their habits, I have found that most people do their main "cooking work" on the piece of counter between the cooktop and the sink, regardless of how much counter space their kitchen may have! So whenever I design a kitchen, I try to make that chunk of counter as big as I can.
So, ignore the notion of centering the sink, and see what that gives you.....and I'll try to find you some off-centre sink pics to reinforce the idea for you! I noticed that in your scenarios, the sink and cooktop are very close, given the overall size of the kitchen.
And congrats on the new baby!!
April 28, 2013 at 4:17pm   
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Wow Great Place
In the first pic, the sink is under one of two windows, rather than centered between them.
In the second, the sink is centered on three of the four windows.
You could do a variation of the second scenario, perhaps splitting your six-foot or 7-foot window into two unequal parts, and centre the sink on the larger side....hope that makes sense?

Chestnut Street Kitchen
York Harbor Maine
April 28, 2013 at 4:26pm   
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mshutterbug
Thanks guys!
Wow - so you would advocate putting the range/oven on the left hand wall and pushing the sink down a bit to the right, as opposed to putting the range on the same wall with the sink and fridge? Cause I could push the sink right next to the lazy susan (eliminating the weird 6" cabinet) and make the cabinet closest to the fridge smaller, allowing a bigger cabinet between sink/DW and range for a nice long workspace there between sink area and range...

PS. Great pics. I hadn't considered the idea of breaking the window into multiple windows...again, an angle I hadn't considered :)
April 28, 2013 at 6:04pm   
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mshutterbug
PPS. This is what I mean about the (ugly) arches, and the reason I realized centering the window would be a bad idea. The window at the very far right is for the powder room, fyi, it's not part of the kitchen space.
April 28, 2013 at 6:06pm   
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Wow Great Place
Yes, keep the range on the left wall. Having everything on one wall, without anything on the island, makes the kitchen feel like a loft rather than a house, if you know what I mean?
As for the window, perhaps you could split it in two even sections, and centre the sink in one of the two sections? ( the one furthest from the range )
And kudos for considering the impact on the house from the exterior!
April 28, 2013 at 6:34pm   
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'Betty Bennett
Thanks for all the ideas We are opening a bungalow and making a large great room. We are looking at an 11 and a half foot wide kitchen space with about 16 feet length but two sides all open with no other walls to worry about and are considering an L shaped island. But I am getting so many ideas and so much help from reading your posts Good luck with your reno I am waiting to see what you end up with
April 28, 2013 at 8:58pm   
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mshutterbug
Glad it's helpful to you too Betty!
Wow - thanks! Yep that makes sense :)
Hmmm...gonna have to think about it some more and play around with the layout so I can finalize this plan!
April 28, 2013 at 11:23pm   
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baumer
I designed our kitchen for our home (we built) and something I did, was draw up the elevations showing the drawer or shelf lines. I looked at everything we had and labeled exactly where I would put everything and measured my plates and bowls to see what min width I would want. It seems silly but it really helped me. This way you don't end up with cabinets you can't use right. I also have a lot of leftover room to grow :-)

Also, I decided in counter depth for all reasons above. I went to sears bc they happened to have Bosch model I wanted on the floor (rare here in fairbanks) and I measured the depth if the shelf vs the standard depth next door... It was hardly anything. If you pick the right model, and the inside shelves, drawers etc were done well, you may find you don't notice loss of space. The French door counter depth would be an awesome way to go with smaller double doors.

Lastly, above my fridge I have the 24" deep cabinet for built in look. I bought the cookie sheet dividers and hubby installed in that cabinet. I see a log if 12" deep ones you can't make much use of at all and then people don't know how to use 24" deep bc it's high and deep. But using as your cookie sheet, muffin pans, cooling racks etc... I don't even have to stand on my tippie toes bc I just need to reach the bottom corner to pull it out! It's a great way to use that cabinet above fridge and frees up lower cabs for other things.

I don't know if this helps, but just advice and ideas up maybe help in decisions :-)
April 29, 2013 at 12:00am   
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Wow Great Place
Mshutterbug, it has been a true pleasure to help you with this dilemma. You have been polite, appreciative, responsive, and genuinely nice about this whole process! Other Houzzers (professionals and non-professionals alike) could take a lesson from you. I wish more people who post realized how important it is to acknowledge other people's efforts. Houzz could use more people like you!
April 29, 2013 at 4:03am     
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mshutterbug
Thanks Wow - that's really nice to hear :)

baumer - nope, doesn't sound silly at all! I'm sure I would be doing the same thing if all my kitchen stuff weren't boxed up! I may have mentioned, we are temporarily staying with my parents while we renovate the new house. (A little crazy with a new baby!) I've been measuring things in my mom's kitchen though lol! I definitely should try to map out where things would go. I wish I could get to my actual stuff, but I'll have to go by memory.

One more design I was playing with... originally I wanted a double oven. I love to bake and I like the idea of not bending over to get things out of the oven. And, I often find myself wishing I had a second oven, especially for big family dinners and holidays. To maximize the space in the kitchen and to keep the budget down we decided to compromise and go for a freestanding range with double oven. But looking at these layouts I wonder if I should reconsider and try to fit the double wall oven afterall.

If I did that I could put the cooktop along the same wall as fridge and sink. It would give me a 2 ft landing space next to fridge, then cooktop, then 4.5 ft of workspace (including the 2' on top of DW...would it bug me to have some of the workspace on top of dishwasher? I could see my workspace getting taken over by clean or dirty dishes being stacked there...) between cooktop and sink . I'd also have all the workspace on the island. Then along the L wall I'd have a landing area next to the double oven. Thinking the oven would reduce the "loft" feel of having everything on one wall. Only issue is would I not want the oven opening right next to the hallway where someone might turn into kitchen? I could push the island down toward the right wall to give more clearance for oven opening as well. (Oh, and I will definitely at least look at the counter-depth refrigerators. Not ruling it out at this point.)

Thoughts? Should I just stop and make a decision? I'm sure that's what husband's thinking ;)
April 29, 2013 at 4:40pm   
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Wow Great Place
You can certainly be happy with this layout, but my only cautions that I would point out are
A) the wall ovens would bring you back to a "wall" as you enter the kitchen (since the wall ovens would be deeper up top than a typical upper cabinet)
B) consider the elevation view with the cooktop in this new spot, as you need to factor in a range hood as well, which would mean less upper cabinet space.
If you go back to the direction you were headed before, I would suggest the uppers between the window and fridge be in glass ( does not have to be clear glass, so the contents would not be on display, can be a textured glass)
And as for making a decision, I would imagine your husband is anxious for a direction, but you are wise to consider all these options on paper, this is the cheapest time to make changes to plans!
April 29, 2013 at 5:56pm     
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Wow Great Place
Or, put the wall ovens beside the fridge! (Keep pantry on other side of fridge, too!)
Kitchen has double ovens
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Hamilton Kitchen 3
April 29, 2013 at 6:01pm   
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mshutterbug
Great points, thanks Wow! I was actually just thinking that...put the cooktop on the short wall and the wall ovens down by fridge with pantry on other side of fridge. Might really work well! Definitely need to map it out showing elevations to get a true picture of how it will look upper and lower. So if I go this route, the question is do I go for a true double oven with microwave over cooktop or a convection microwave/oven combo....
April 29, 2013 at 6:11pm   
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Wow Great Place
You could do the microwave over the wall ovens (though you have to check the specs of the wall ovens, as this can also yield a too-high microwave)
Kitchen

Or you could do the microwave under the counter, as a standard microwave, or as a drawer.

Westmount kitchen
Blue Kitchen
April 29, 2013 at 6:39pm   
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mshutterbug
Thanks Wow! Great example pics :)

Ok, so I think this is my "final" layout. I will tweak the window(s) to make it work. And I might swap the DW to the other side of sink. Need to play a bit and also look at the elevation, as suggested. I want to draw it out and finalize cabinets/drawers etc. But I think this may be the general layout of the major appliances. I decided to split the pantry into two 15" on either side of fridge. I'm concerned that if the oven door is open and someone opens the fridge it would possibly dent the oven door if there wasn't a buffer there. Though if I think of it, I can't think of why someone couldn't wait two minutes for me to close the oven before opening fridge LOL! So, maybe that's a non-issue? My other issue is that the fridge is soooo far from the cooktop. But I don't think that can be helped. And for something to be farther away, the fridge is probably the best thing to be outside the suggested 9ft (or whatever it is for the triangle rule).

So, how does this look?
April 30, 2013 at 10:11am     
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Dullea and Associates Inc.
I have one additional suggestion. You might want to consider going with a super Susan instead of the Lazy Susan. A Super Susan has two independent shelves which eliminates the center bar. They provide a whole lot more storage space for the minimal additional cost.
April 30, 2013 at 11:02am   
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mshutterbug
Thanks Dullea! Super does sound better than Lazy :)
April 30, 2013 at 8:09pm   
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Denise Storm
We are in the middle of building and while we have plenty of space around our island (9' x 6') 47" we decided to recess the standard refrigerator between the studs (it is a trick a lot of builders use) so that it essentially looks counter depth but you don't lose the storage and you save about $6000. See the space where the ladder is sitting in the attached picture.
May 1, 2013 at 5:40am   
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'Betty Bennett
This might not be practical on an outside wall where insulation is also an issue
Do fridges still need plenty of air circulation? Might be an old fashioned worry.
If air circulation is not an issue, it might work well for me on an inside wall, thank you for the suggestion
May 1, 2013 at 7:07am   
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'Betty Bennett
PS I would love to see pics of the finished result Denise, it looks to be amazing!!
May 1, 2013 at 7:11am   
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mshutterbug
That sounds awesome Denise! I have also heard of this technique. But, like Betty, I wonder if it can be done on an outside wall...? I second that - would love to see pics of the finished result - it does look amazing :)
May 1, 2013 at 7:24am   
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mshutterbug
Couple more questions for you guys if you happen to see this... now that I've settled upon a basic layout with all of the appliances - yay! - I'm trying to narrow down exactly what types of cabinets I'll have. I'll attach the layout again for your reference. So far, in my layout I have a 36" cabinet to the right of the cooktop, then a 36" super susan on the other side. This leaves room for a 24" cabinet, then my 36" sink base, the dishwasher, another 24" cabinet, and the two 15" pantry pullouts.

So, my first question is, would there be a better solution than the super susan or possibly a different size for this corner with some other type of cabinet, which would allow me to make the 24" cabinet to the right of the sink, something more like a 30"...? Second, what size cabinets would make the most sense in the island? I'm thinking two 36" with a 24" in the center. I would like a good place to store things like cookie sheets and racks, and I'm debating how best to do that. Third, I was initially planning to do a lot of pull out shelves, but I wonder if drawers wouldn't make more sense. Maybe even just make all base cabinets pot drawers??

Beyond that, I am wondering what to do for upper cabinets in relation to the corner... I find that upper corner cabinets are particularly awkward, but I don't have a ton of space for uppers to begin with. So I want to maximize it. Ideas for the upper configuration? It looks like I have 30" between the full-wall items on the right (oven, fridge, pantry) and the start of the window. So I guess a 30" cabinet there or whatever size ultimately fits once the window is in. But on the other side of the window and on the wall with the cooktop....what to do there?

Thanks!
May 16, 2013 at 1:35pm   
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'Betty Bennett
I have been working with much the same size in an IKEA kitchen My layout is reversed but very similar in size I am just not sure how to send it to you
May 16, 2013 at 1:52pm   
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'Betty Bennett
Trying to send it now
May 16, 2013 at 2:06pm     
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'Betty Bennett
Anyway my version uses pullout features in the pantry height cupboards beside the fridge Which makes the deeper cupboards accessible and using space above for trays with tray racks You might be doing the same but I can t read the lighter lettering beside the fridge and double oven They also have a pullout for a corner cupboard you might want to explore
I dont particularly like pull out shelves because of banging into the doors, which because I am such a kluz I always do. And I have ruined the inside of hubbys oak armoire that way
So of course I would go for the drawers or cupboards.
I have a friend with a mega loft kitchen and she has all her dishes in drawers, which rather startled me. I am so pedantic!!
I am putting in an upper corner unit with shelves not a susan because of waste space. you can fit a lot into those corners!! We seem to collect tons of glasses and cups so I end up using all of that space for them and on the top shelf I pack in all the stuff I rarely use
May 16, 2013 at 2:18pm     
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'Betty Bennett
You can probably see why I have been following your layout with such interest!!
May 16, 2013 at 2:20pm     
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feeny
Definitely large drawers on the lower cabinets are the most useful.
May 16, 2013 at 4:27pm   
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mshutterbug
Thanks Betty! Wow that is similar - I see what you mean!
May 16, 2013 at 4:36pm   
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Dullea and Associates Inc.
There have been a number of good suggestions made thus far. I would like to add that you need to consider the type of cabinets you intend to use as they will play an important role in function and usable storage space. By this I mean are you using a framed or frameless cabinet?

Cabinets with a frame can reduce the clear opening of a cabinet by up to 3 1/2". This would be a considerable amount to lose in the 15" wide cabinets you show flanking the refrigerator. On top of this the cabinets are shown 24" deep thus making it extremely difficult to get to anything in the back of the cabinet.

Betty's design is almost there but might I suggest moving the refrigerator one cabinet to the right. Doing so would allow you to have a wider cabinet on each side of your refrigerator. Each could have a pair of doors which would allow for a much wider clear opening and easy access to items in the back of the cabinets.

I prefer pullout shelves in these full depth pantry cabinets as they allow for easy access to items. You will lose space due to the hardware but I feel the loss of space is out weighed by the time saved looking for the item(s) you need. I also personally like a Super Susan as they provide much more usable storage space over a regular Lazy Susan. You can also store those items you use less frequently on the side of the shelves, outside of the swivel tray. Doing so makes good use of the entire corner.
May 17, 2013 at 5:43am   
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'Betty Bennett
Thank you for your input the 2 15 inch cabinets are both pullouts on the lower end with the deep cabinets at the top for storage of larger less often used items such as turkey roasters, angel food and bundt cake pans etc. (I wont have a basement to keep things like that)Anyway there are the two 15 inch on either side (the plan is for these to be my pantry items) and then a 30 inch which I am still deciding whether or not to keep it as it really intrudes slightly into the breakfast area My plan was for 15 - 16 feet of kitchen and this would actually be closer to 19 feet
My cabinets would be frameless I do not like the appearance of the framed cabinets when the door is open but they are quite nice when the door is closed
IKEA doesnt offer the super susan but has a quite nice pullout type half susan which gives lots of access into the back of a corner cabinet.
Again I appreciate any and all input.
MsShutterbug you mentioned cookie trays etc, I am planning on using the deep cupboard above the double oven for tray and sheet storage. it is deep and with a few metal dividers IKEA has it will keep them separate for easy removal
May 19, 2013 at 7:20pm   
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feeny
Just a quick tip. Our cabinetmaker lined the bottom of our vertical cookie sheet cabinet with a thin layer of Corian with a narrow groove in the middle to slide in a vertical divider. That way the cookie sheets, trays, and roasting pans that I store in there don't scrape up the bottom of the painted cabinet when taking them in and out.
May 19, 2013 at 7:44pm     
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mshutterbug
Thanks for the idea feeny!
The 15" cabinets flanking fridge are going to be pullout pantries, so hopefully the depth won't be a problem...
betty - so the trays with dividers will lay flat? Sounds interesting! I'm not tall, so I always have to consider that when putting anything up high :)

Ok guys, I'm at the point now of finalizing my design and would LOVE some feedback and thoughts on whether there's anything I'm overlooking..

We purchased all of our appliances Thur and Fri and picked out our granite slabs. What a (not fun) day that was! (Made all the more fun driving around with a fussy newborn. LOL! Thank goodness for grandparents who babysat the other two kids :) We ultimately went with a non-counter-depth fridge... I hope we won't regret it and feel it overwhelms the room, but we really wanted maximum food storage space. (unfortunately it's an exterior wall and husband says there's no way to recess it in our situation)

I've basically got the lower section determined, as far as where there will be counters and where the appliances will go. I'm trying to make decisions on exactly what cabinets/drawers to use there, as well as what to do with the upper portion. I'm going to attach the newest layout to see if anyone has any more thoughts or ideas??

We decided to do a built-in microwave next to the double oven. Debating whether to hide it behind a door or show it and use a trim kit. It's this panasonic microwave (or a model very similar...can't remember and don't have the paperwork) http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-NN-SD997S-1250-Watt-Microwave-Technology/dp/B000ON2TQG/ref=pd_sbs_k_6
I really wanted a smaller one since I basically only use it to heat up my coffee after I've gotten distracted several times from drinking it :D But husband really liked this one. And, it's still smaller than an OTR option.

I really don't like the idea of putting it there because it will eat up most of my upper cabinet space on that wall. I think the actual space taken with a vent kit is like 27" wide by 19" high. However, I don't want to invest in a microwave drawer and I don't want to have to bend down to use a standard microwave installed in a lower cabinet. That doesn't seem to leave me with very many options....thoughts? Putting it there though would give me MAYBE a 12" cabinet next to it for mugs and glasses. Definitely not big enough... I want the mugs and cups to be near the fridge where we'll be getting water etc. Anyone have any magical option that allows me to put the microwave there above the counter AND have a cabinet sufficient for storing glasses and mugs?? I could make one of the pullout pantries a cabinet with pullout shelves instead and put the mugs and glasses there, but I don't really like that idea. I'd rather they be on the other side of the oven.

Ideas on my microwave dilemma? Other thoughts about my latest layout??
Thanks in advance!!
May 26, 2013 at 4:40pm     
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'Betty Bennett
I still like the corner upper with shelves for glasses and mugs but that would be quite far from the fridge, but very close to the sink. Also since a corner upper is usually smaller (the IKEA one is 26 inches) than a corner lower . you might have more space for a larger upper beside the cooktop.
I am having the upper oven be a convection microwave so I wont run into that problem of where to put a microwave (fingers crossed) We are now talking with a new contractor as the last one wanted to start some of the work before our permits came through so he is gone
The tray divider above the double oven would hold the trays on their sides but put a bit of a divide between them so everything is not leaning at one spot In the past it has made it easier to remove and return my heavier cooking trays. I use a lot of stones and they are too heavy for me to lift and move more than one or two at a time. (I have RA and it affects my shoulders so heavy reaching is a problem) LOL unfortunately it is just not feasible for me to have ALL of my paraphernalia at waist height.
I do like the idea of having a thin sheet of Corian or something like that to make sliding them in and out gentler on the cabinets Thanks for the idea Feeny.
You mentioned spices I plan on having top drawers in all my lower cabinets and IKEA has a neat little holder to go in the drawers so you can put your spices on the side in the drawer and they wont roll. Will save moving dozens of bottles to find the ones you want. Also I am buying more of my spices at the Bulk Barn in smaller amounts and putting them in my own half size containers and labelling them They will not lose so much potency since I will use them and replace more often Besides that I wont be paying a lot of money for useless containers.
May 26, 2013 at 6:01pm     
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'Betty Bennett
By the way Talking as a grandparent....... we love to be needed and adore having our grandbabies (of all ages) with us. LOL My 26 and 24 year old grandsons spent last weekend here and I am flying to Vancouver to pick up my 8 year old granddaughter for a few weeks visit this summer. Nice to know that my kids still need me to help out occasionally and oh how I LOVE having a visit from the grands!!
May 26, 2013 at 6:18pm   
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mshutterbug
Thanks Betty! My kiddos love grandma and grandpa, and they love them right back. It's wonderful seeing them together :) Have fun with yours!

Yes, my original thought was to do a convection microwave, but husband really didn't like the idea of spending more for less. The microwave/oven combo was $900 MORE than the same model double oven. I've always wanted a true double oven so it wasn't hard to convince me. Of course, now we are left trying to figure out where to put the microwave! Basically I see 3 options...

1. Put the microwave in an upper cabinet next to the oven (this is husband's vote because he thinks all the appliances in a group makes the most sense). I prefer to have cups and glasses here because we would most often be getting coffee at that counter or getting a glass of water from the fridge.

For what it's worth - husband also said we should put cups in a corner upper cabinet. I just have a very hard time accessing corner upper cabinets and generally wanted to avoid having one. Even if we don't make it a corner, there is still about 24" of upper space that is difficult to access because it's behind the adjacent countertop (does that make sense?)

2. Put the microwave in a lower cabinet (could even put it in that same 36" area between DW and oven, just in the lower cabinet instead of upper). I just don't know about leaning over to put in and take out a mug of coffee or a bowl of soup, for example).

3. Move the cooktop over a smidge closer to corner and put the microwave in an upper cabinet to the right of the cooktop vent hood at the very end of that short wall....

I just can't decide and he needs me to figure it so he can run all the lines this week!
May 26, 2013 at 6:38pm   
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Wow Great Place
Me again....what about the microwave above the double ovens, to create one tower of appliances?
Bright & Crisp Kitchen
Traditional Kitchen
May 26, 2013 at 7:11pm   
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mshutterbug
Hey Wow! Thanks for coming back :) I had considered that actually and then I guess I sort of forgot LOL. My concern is whether I'd be able to reach it!
May 26, 2013 at 7:21pm   
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Wow Great Place
Depends on the specs for the wall ovens. Sometimes adding the microwave puts it at the same height as though it was over the stove.
You could also try combining the pantry units, instead of flanking the fridge, and add the microwave there....
Sleek new kitchen
White Small Kitchen
May 26, 2013 at 7:40pm   
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mshutterbug
Thanks for the idea! Husband and I were just chatting about combining them for another reason, but I think we need a minimum of 27" wide for the vent kit. If we eliminate the end pantry we'd still need to have some space between wall and fridge. We calculated we'd need about 8" (which would mean we couldn't get 27" in the remaining pantry) in order to open door greater than 90 degrees. Does that sound right? How close to a wall can you put a french door fridge and open that side wider than 90?
May 26, 2013 at 7:53pm   
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Wow Great Place
What if the pantry was the first cabinet, THEN the fridge, so fridge is beside wall ovens? (Make your pantry extra deep, like 30"!) OR wall ovens first, then the fridge, then the pantry? (Wall ovens can go outside the triangle, and this would keep the fridge a little closer to the work area)
May 26, 2013 at 7:58pm   
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mshutterbug
I wanted to leave at least a little room between fridge and oven so that no one accidentally dings the oven door by opening the fridge while oven is open...
May 26, 2013 at 8:07pm   
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Wow Great Place
Then you may start running out of room for all these appliances in that one corner...you could consider the wall ovens beside the wall, then the pantry with microwave (extra deep, remember), then the fridge closest to where the counter starts, but it may get squishy with the fridge in relation to the island......(and I would advise, if you go this route, to also have a panel beside the fridge, next to the counter, extra deep, like the pantry, so you hide the side of the fridge.)
May 27, 2013 at 3:27am   
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'Betty Bennett
MsShutterbug the reason I like the upper corner cabinet is because it eliminates that last cupboard over the counter which I consider unreachable ( I am average height 5' 5") since it brings it further forward the closest foot or so is reachable and then after that you need a step. but then you would need it if you had straight cupboards anyway plus if you used a susan, even if you did lose some of the corner space you would still be able to access most of the cabinet.
Wow Great Place quick question if you dont mind. I thought I read somewhere that you should not put fridge and ovens side by side...... is that no longer true? Probably an old fashioned notion and I never caught up with the times!
Also if you put a panel beside the fridge facing a counter. would it be a good place for a spice rack to be built? I am planning on using a drawer but this might be better.........
PS I love the micro over that shorter pullout cabinet, to my mind it looks a really good usable height
May 27, 2013 at 1:10pm   
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Wow Great Place
Having a fridge and wall ovens sit side by side is less problematic than having a fridge sitting beside a regular slide-in stove. The wall ovens get encased in cabinetry, and normally the fridge has panels flanking it to house the extra deep cabinet over the fridge, so the appliance sides aren't "touching" like they can in some scenarios.

And yes, adding a spice rack there could be rather clever! I am actually a fan of the spice rack on a magnetic board, with the spice "jars" being magnetized.....puts them all in your view, though purists would prefer their spices stay in dark places, for longevity, but some prefer them on display!

May 27, 2013 at 1:19pm   
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mshutterbug
My head is spinning from looking at all my options LOL! Betty - I was thinking more about the spice thing... all of my spice containers are different shapes and sizes, and I have considered buying uniform containers and doing what you describe. This new house/remodel might be the right time to do it. I guess I just need to decide how and where. Wow - I've seen those magnetic jars...pretty clever :)
May 27, 2013 at 5:38pm   
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mshutterbug
Betty - I've been thinking about your comment about the corner upper and I'm having a hard time figuring out how it's more accessible... I'm trying to picture it both ways. I also don't think I'll want an upper lazy Susan but maybe..do you think they work well in upper cabinet? Thanks!
May 27, 2013 at 7:23pm   
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mshutterbug
And...does anyone have a link to a good (free) online or downloadable planning software so I can make a better drawing? lol
May 27, 2013 at 7:28pm   
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'Betty Bennett
Wow Great place thanks for the answers I was avoiding that placement like the plague because of misinformation and I do like that spice rack idea.
Msshutterbug right now I have picked up small plastic salad dressing containers from the dollar store which are about half the size of normal containers and I can stack them It is inexpensive and will do till I find a more permanent solution for my bulk barn spices. they would for sure work well in the spice drawer but I also like that idea of having the spices on the magnetic board
May 27, 2013 at 7:34pm   
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'Betty Bennett
ms shutterbug go to the ikea kitchen planning site. Free and both floor plan and 3 d renderings They have all types and sizes of cabinets and shelves etc
May 27, 2013 at 7:35pm   
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'Betty Bennett
as well you can add floor colouring and different cabinet finishes different handles glass doors
oh and you can get drawings from different angles. and you also set in your walls and openings and windows
May 27, 2013 at 7:37pm   
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'Betty Bennett
They also give you a shopping list at the end so you know exactly what you need at the end in the way of cabinets and hardware. I think it is a great site. you just have yto sign up with a user name and password BEFORE you start LOL or you will lose all your work
May 27, 2013 at 7:41pm     
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PRO
Polski remodeling
it will be fine
May 27, 2013 at 7:46pm   
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mshutterbug
Thanks Betty!! Ok, so when you say "corner upper" I'm thinking you mean like the one on ikea,where it's got one door that is flat? Kinda like this?
Divine Kitchens LLC
(My lower won't be angled the same, so wouldn't that look weird?)

When I said I don't like corner cabinets on upper, I was thinking where two wall cabinets meet, kinda like this (2nd):
Kitchen has double ovens

Not sure how to embed these photos cause it didn't work lol...do the links?
Trying to finish up this layout on ikea and figure out how to share it. Thank you again for the tip!
May 28, 2013 at 12:39pm     
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'Betty Bennett
msshutterbug I had to save it and then share it..... cant remember what I saved it in Anyway I have had the lower not match the upper in other kitchens so I am used to the look........ and it doesnt look strange to me but that is not to say it wont bother you... You absolutely have to hit your comfort zone. The kitchen I have designed and the one I have in AZ both have a 45 degree corner upper and a 90 degree corner lower.
And yes that Divine kitchen upper is what I was talking about but without the glass for me
May 28, 2013 at 12:51pm   
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mshutterbug
Okay well that makes sense! I don't know why I didn't consider the 45 degree corner. I think that's what you meant about it being easier to access? I won't have the glass either, just grabbed a 45 degree photo :) Hmmm...ok, more to think about.

Alright, I've got it in the ikea software...a good approximation anyway. There were a couple things I couldn't figure out, but since I'm not buying it at ikea I decided not to worry about being too precise. I also don't show the island here cause I couldn't find the correct size. Wonder where I can plug the info in to make a more specific plan for husband (my photoshop diagram is precise in the measurements but not as easy to read I think)? There should be a 6" filler pull-out on the left of the fridge, but I couldn't quite figure out how to get it in there.

So, in this plan I have a 24" pull-out pantry to the right of fridge, a 6" filler pull-out to the left (what I'll do with it is TBD lol) just to provide a little extra space for fridge door. I also have the microwave just to the right of ovens. That would mean I'd need to put glasses/mugs either in that corner between cooktop and sink OR in the cabinet to the right of cooktop. OR, I could move the microwave into that upper cabinet to right of cooktop OR I could put the microwave above the pantry like the pic that Wow shared. My concern about this option is that it doesn't give me much pantry space since it's only a 24" cabinet.

So for the microwave...which do you think would be most user-friendly in the overall plan:
A. Microwave to the right of ovens
B. Microwave above 24" pantry to the left of ovens
C. Microwave in the upper cabinet to right of cooktop

My mugs/glasses would obviously move accordingly.
Thoughts?
May 28, 2013 at 1:37pm   
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'Betty Bennett
Have to dash but just a quick note... if you click on your selected items in the ikea program it will give you a list and also things like how many hinges legs etc you need..... this list will include all the cupboard sizes etc Also the top view (double square) left side bottom might be more helpful for hubby?
May 28, 2013 at 1:53pm   
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'Betty Bennett
Will look more closely tonight when I get back
May 28, 2013 at 1:53pm   
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mshutterbug
Thanks for the tips Betty!
So I'm trying to really plan out where everything will go BEFORE I give hubby the final go-ahead on the layout. (I'm such a perfectionist/planner, and I'm sure I'm driving him nuts LOL!) As you see in the photo, I really am quite limited on upper cabinet space, especially if I put the microwave next to the ovens there. I don't want to put any everyday items in the corner between sink and ct, regardless of how I lay it out (easy reach, diagonal, or single cabinet on the cooktop side with empty wall on sink side, or whatever) because I just can't reach. My mom has a similar layout with stove and sink. She has one cabinet on the stove side, with the short sink wall empty. I just tested it out and really can't reach the back half of that cabinet. I can't imagine trying to put dishes away in there everyday.

So, what I'm wondering is...what do people think of putting plates and bowls in a deep drawer? I've never even considered it until I saw a display using pegs. But then I was reading up and it sounds like if we have soft-close drawers we might not even need the pegs.

I was thinking I could store them in the shallow drawers in the island (shallow front to back I mean, because I'll have seating on one side). Is that a bad idea?
May 30, 2013 at 10:03am   
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'Betty Bennett
Hi Sorry Have been away for the day. A really good friend of mine with a kazillion dollar 5000 sq ft loft and ....... well I wont go into it all... but she has ALL of her dishes in deep drawers...... And IKEA if you look through their stuff has dividers specifically for keeping dishes in drawers. I think if you are unable to access upper cupboards easily it is an excellent idea
Whatever you do should work for you and your family, regardless whether or not you do something no one has ever done LOL (After you do it you will find tons of folks have done it anyway )
As far as the shallow drawers........ it might work cus your hubby is building them and can make sure that your large dinner plates will fit. Some would be too big for a traditional 12 inch deep shallow drawer unit... because the drawer itself will not be 12 inches inside only the cabinet outside.
by the way I do envy you that, having hubby build your cupboards, when we had a kitchen redone by a cabinet maker.. he made all my drawers full length from to back and added about 6 inches more space per drawer!! Doesnt sound like much but it made a huge difference
May 30, 2013 at 11:07pm   
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'Betty Bennett
I am not sure of the look of the microwave right beside the double ovens...... but that is mainly because of the different heights..... also not sure how so much stainless all together will affect the colour balance of the kitchen.
What about on the other side near the cooktop?
May 30, 2013 at 11:12pm   
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'Betty Bennett
BTW we have been in several motorhomes with a 6 inch pullout and man it holds a whack of stuff!!
May 30, 2013 at 11:15pm   
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mshutterbug
Thanks Betty! Excellent point about the mw being at a different height. I was thinking I'd probably do the hidden option, rather than having yet one more shiny appliance to look at. But I couldn't figure out how to hide it with the ikea software (until I realized I could just stick a cabinet there to show how it will look LOL). The other biggie that I wish I could hide is the dishwasher, but we've already purchased it and I don't think I can convince hubby to switch to a different brand that would allow a flush panel ready option.
May 31, 2013 at 9:20am   
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mshutterbug
Oh! About the island base cabinets... I was thinking of doing maybe 18" deep. Trying to imagine if that's a good size for anything in a pull out shelf or a drawer. What do you think?
May 31, 2013 at 10:14am   
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'Betty Bennett
IMHO for space reasons go with drawer not shelf usually a pullout shelf will have a ledge to stop stuff from falling off so out of your 18 inches you have the original cabinets ..... probably 5/8 inch thick front and back so you are down to 16 and 3/4 and then if you lose that same amount again plus a little clearance you are down to about 15 inches When space is tight. 3 inches is a bunch!!
May 31, 2013 at 1:01pm   
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mshutterbug
Great point Betty! Thanks :)
Can I get some opinions please...? Back to my original question. I'm trying to finalize island size and resulting walkways. My question - given my layout, if you had to, would you skimp on the walkway between the island and sink/oven wall OR the side where I'll have stools and a pathway behind...? I originally had the same clearance on both sides. I'm thinking of making the countertop on island 30", moving it closer to sink so it's maybe 38" between and then on the outer walkway 45"...there will be plenty of clearance on cooktop end and the other end...
My thought is me at the sink needs less room than someone trying to walk past behind someone at island.
June 2, 2013 at 7:07pm   
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mshutterbug
Eek! Appliances are going in today. I have yet to give hubby a decision on island size/placement LOL! But it feels soooo good to see progress in this house we purchased 3 months ago. It's hard to maintain excitement during such a big renovation! I've been sidetracked by paint choices for cabinets/trim/ceiling. Ugh. But I guess I better just make a decision on the island question so he can build it!
June 6, 2013 at 12:37pm   
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Wow Great Place
38" on the working side of the island and 42"(or more) on the barstool side will be just fine! Mock up the size with cardboard or plywood, so you can live with it with the new appliance placement and pretend to test it out!
June 6, 2013 at 5:08pm     
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'Betty Bennett
How is this kitchen coming??
June 25, 2013 at 8:01am   
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mshutterbug
Thanks Wow! I think I saw this a few weeks ago and thought I replied. This is a great suggestion :)

Betty - funny you should ask, as we just moved in this week. Finishing the kitchen has sort of been put on the back burner while we just get the house into a more livable state. There's not a single room that hasn't been touched with this renovation, so it's been pretty crazy! (Try putting a toddler to bed in a room without a door where she can hear everything going on in the house, ha!) This is what the kitchen looks like at the moment... I have a LOT of work to do to get things cleaned up and organized (which is tricky when you have no cabinets to actually put things away! LOL!)

I already feel like the fridge is too far away from the counter on the short wall. However, my hope is that once the island is in, that's where I'll do most of my prep work. Right now to get cereal, for example, I get the bowl and spoon from that little counter, go to the fridge and back with the milk. In the future, I'll have the cereal in the pantry right next to the fridge, and I'm tentatively planning to put the silverware, everyday cups, bowls, plates etc in the drawers directly to the right of the double ovens and left of dishwasher. So, my workflow would be to grab a bowl, turn to set it on the island, get the milk, pour it, and put it back (and push it across the island to the child sitting there lol). I won't as frequently need to take things from the fridge all the way over to the cooktop. And at this point we're basically committed to the layout since all the walls and drywall have been completed. In my mind, the only other options for the fridge involved eliminating the island entirely. I guess time will tell if I made the right decision!
June 25, 2013 at 10:07am   
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nancypetalver
To your question of having drawers in the island for your plates- it seems like it would be very easy to unload your dishwasher right into the drawers. I imagine you would be standing in front of your sink, open dishwasher then facing the island pull out drawer in front on the sink or to the left of. It seems like there would be enough room for you to stand there and have the drawer open. As for leaving less space between the sink wall and island , you mentioned that there would room enough for you, but what about the kiddos also? My kids ( and the dog) all like to be right next to me. What about making a shelf for the microwave in the island? Then it would be out of sight, maybe facing the dishwasher?
June 26, 2013 at 8:59pm   
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mshutterbug
Just an update :) kitchen still not done...turns out that 3 kids + husband having full-time job + whole house remodel = a long time before a DIY remodel is complete! LOL

The counters are in though. 36.5" counter edge to counter edge on working side. About 46.5" from edge to wall on through-path side. Almost 10" overhang on that side, where we have our old (full-size) bar chairs at the moment. The 36" side is fine, no problem at all. Plenty of space, even at Thanksgiving when more than one cook were working.

Total honesty though....I hate the chairs on the other side. Our intention is to get the narrowest stools possible when all is done. Maybe I'll like it better then. The pathway is fine (works out to be about 36" when chair is pushed in...and remember, they're big chairs). But that space is rather unnecessary. I wish I had made the countertop a smidge wider (it's just under 32") and not done a seating overhang at all. I mean, hello, our dining room table is *right there* lol...the bar seating has been used maybe once or twice. The chairs just make it feel cluttered. Ugh.

So, I'd say that was probably my worst decision so far. If I could do it over I'd have made that all storage underneath and skipped the overhang altogether. Too late now though! Other than that, it's all coming together, slowly but nicely ;)
January 21, 2014 at 9:14am     
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Wow Great Place
Thanks for the update!
And if the overhang with barstools is REALLY bugging you, can you add more cabinets under the overhang, at 9" deep (so you have the 1" lip of counter at the top), and kill the barstools? Just a thought....
January 21, 2014 at 11:58am      Thanked by mshutterbug
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mshutterbug
Hi Wow! Somehow I didn't realize you had replied - sorry about that! Popped back on to post something else and saw you replied! My husband and I are chatting about that actually. We are debating how/if we can do that :) My thought was to somehow "punch out" the back of the island without negative impact on the structural integrity holding up the granite (lol) and make the existing box bigger. It is still literally just a box on the inside (well, a box with 3 dividing sections, if that makes sense). So there are no shelves or drawers or faces yet... I hadn't thought to add shallow cabinets to the other side. Will have to give that some thought. Thanks again!
March 5, 2014 at 9:56am     
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