I want remodel my master bath
jlreber
July 11, 2013 in Design Dilemma
My master bath has a huge jaccuzi tub jutting out in the middle of the room. The tiny sinks are down narrow aisles on either side of the tub and the room for the stool is so small my feet hit the door if I close it. The setup is very odd and not user friendly.
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Emily Hurley
I bet there is a better way that can be laid out for sure. What if the bathtub was against one wall, then you'd have room for a nice large double vanity maybe?
July 11, 2013 at 3:44pm     
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Carolyn Albert-Kincl, ASID
My first question is does anyone use the huge jacuzzi tub? If not, then removing it would free up a whole big area for a shower, and possibly to expand the area around the toilet. I can't tell what is where from the two photos, so we would need a sketch of the bathroom layout to assist you with a redesign of it. Dimensions with doors and windows marked could help us perform miracles for you! Well almost miracles!
Carolyn Albert-Kincl, ASID
July 11, 2013 at 6:16pm     
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beachrunner5
do you use the tub? if not, can you just get rid of it? I've seen that posted in other places, that the tubs are not as in style anymore because they aren't being used.
July 11, 2013 at 8:50pm     
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N.O.R,LLC
wow!unusual design,it worth if you move the tub against the wall,I do staging all the time and i m going to open houses and I see how home buyers think about unusual lay out ,if you remove the tub and some one come to master bathroom with tun that would be an issue for your house.
July 11, 2013 at 9:01pm     
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Elisa Paramo Interiors
If you don't need the tub it is worth gutting the bathroom and coming up with a completely new layout. Think about what you don't like about your current bathroom and what you wish it could be. It's best to meet with a designer to help you make your vision a reality. I will say one last thing. Most people tend to keep only on tub in a house for bathing children. I hope this helps!
July 12, 2013 at 1:49pm     
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mmmmk
Can I ask if anyone really uses a tub in a master bath. Thinking of just putting a shower in as tub takes up too much space.!
July 13, 2013 at 2:03pm     
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indianpatti
I love my jetted tub .. use it 2x week .. getting ready to enjoy a lavender Epsom soak right now!
July 13, 2013 at 2:05pm     
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Carolyn Albert-Kincl, ASID
A few people I know use a tub daily, and others almost never.
July 13, 2013 at 2:32pm     
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Elisa Paramo Interiors
Most of my clients do not use a tub. I can't tell you the last time I used my own tub.
July 13, 2013 at 9:03pm     
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libradesigneye
I'm a tub fan - and my husband, who generally prefers the shower, wanted a tub large enough for him when we reworked our bath. This is a layout that seems organized more for first impressions than for function. If you post a jpg of the entire layout, you will get some good ideas that don't require extensive / expensive plumbing.
July 13, 2013 at 10:52pm     
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victorianbungalowranch
How about putting a shower in the huge linen closet and tearing out the door and wall around the toilet? Then add an armoire or cubbies for linens. Some mirrors and glass shelves and lights above the sinks would be nice. Lowes has some nice ones that are reasonably priced:
http://www.lowes.com/pd_320996-69133-5079_0__?productId=3148517&Ntt=oval+mirror+and+shelf&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Doval%2Bmirror%2Band%2Bshelf&facetInfo=

I've been very happy with the one I bought--going great for 5 years in my powder room, which gets a lot of use.

Not sure if there is room, but might be possible to rotate the toilet and put in a smaller linen closet or cubbies, add a halfwall. At least add some fabric shower curtains by the window and around the tub, sort of like a canopy bed. Then add his and hers storage by the sinks.

I wonder if it is possible to antique the shiny brass finish. Saw Martha Stewart doing it on TV to something like hand-rubbed bronze using a chemical solution. Would need to be disassembled, but worth a try if you are thinking of replacing anyway. Or play it safe and work with the brass--it isn't too bad.
July 14, 2013 at 12:34am     
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hilltop1155
One challenge, it appears to me, will be rerouting the water and drain. A lot of cost may depend on the orientation of the joists underneath and how difficult it will be to accomplish this (which may be no problem if it's on the first floor). I'd want to know that before involving a designer (a good idea, IMO) and it might help make the decision as to how/where to move things. I'd recommend keeping a tub in some form if you care at all about resale.

At first look, and assuming the door is opposite the left hand sink, then turning the toilet, removing the closet, and putting the tub on the far wall and sinks on the left wall might work. You don't mention a shower either, so this assumes a combination tub/shower. If the shower is in another area already, though, that could change things.
July 14, 2013 at 1:02am     
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JAN MOYER
These situations always amuse me. Two lonely pictures, no dimensions, and a free for all of advice likely to follow which should come down to only this: Get some local design help,( which should foremost include a very good contractor) to help assess the layout possibilities/need of fixtures, the overall feel you would like in the bath, what is actually possible given underpinnings of your home, and your budget. Any attempt to answer the question without a lot more information is to spit into the wind. A hard measure, a peek into your basement, your house plans if they are available..... all of it is necessary to make any assessment of how to correct an awkward space that is more complicated than simply..."lets put that here, and that over there" : )
July 14, 2013 at 3:47am     
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Promethean Remodeling, LLC
I am in agreement with others that Jaccuzi type tubs are rarely used if ever. Most people don't know that after using this type of tub you are supposed to fill it again, add some ant-bacterial chemicals, run it for a few minutes and drain. The pipes below the tub always hold water and the chemical after each use prevents harmful bacterial growth. Huge waste of water. There are a few of the bubble type units that have warm air that passes through after each use to dry the standing water which prevents the growth and makes it unnecessary to fill with the chemical solution. There will be other rooms in the home that have a tub which is important for bathing children. Other than that, people rarely use tubs. I am completing a master bath renovation now where the tub was eliminated and the money that would have been used for a whirlpool type or slipper soaking tub was reallocated to create a huge 6 x 6 shower with multiple shower heads, body sprays and a steam unit. This also made room for two 7' vanities, one for him and one for her. The owners are ecstatic with the decision. I will post pictures when this awesome bathroom has been completed.
July 14, 2013 at 5:02am     
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JAN MOYER
No offense meant, "space is limited, so add a laundry?" As a designer, I can say there is nowhere near enough information here, to hazard a guess at any best possible solution. Tub, or no tub , laundry or none. One good plan with good design/contractor advice is worth far more than any amount of idle conjecture. A designer will simply help to maximize the possibilities within space and budget........and needs of the homeowner. Nothing more, and nothing less.
July 14, 2013 at 7:06am     
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makeup_mirror
DEF! You've one ODD MB! I removed my jacuzzi
& replaced it with a glassed-in shower. Long, narrow, with a wooden bench,
It's far more spa-like than my huge tub. Look online Baha resorts!! Have fun,
BTW~ I like your WC & sinks. You may want to save space, by a double sink
counter~keeping just the sink bowls~ they're lovely.
~a tub to shower convert!!
July 14, 2013 at 7:08am     
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catieb
Jlreber.....one example of why you need an on site designer: someone suggested changing the "huge" linen closet to a shower. I can tell you that (assuming it were built correctly) the final shower would have an interior foot print of less than 3'x3'......hardly an acceptable master bath shower. Especially not acceptable given the money it would have cost to create it. I strongly reiterate what others with professional experience have said: you need to bring someone in who knows what they are doing.

I am currently remodeling a master bath that had been "remuddled"......which left it with an equally uncomfortable master bedroom sleeping area. We actually took in some of that space to create two spaces that are more pleasing, AND more functional!
July 14, 2013 at 7:26am     
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JAN MOYER
@catieb,
I would assume that as well, and it's always nice to shower in a phone booth huh? : ) Good design help pays for itself ten time over. No offense.
July 14, 2013 at 7:34am     
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Blinds Direct Canada
I would definitely recommend a Plantation Shutters for this space its works great in a bathroom and will not warp or chip from the humidity in the bathroom.
http://www.blindsdirectcanada.com/shutters-toronto/pvc-polysatin-shutters.html
July 14, 2013 at 10:04am     
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Pam Ozment
You rock Jan Moyer! Always love your total common sense advice. Your clients are lucky to have you.
July 14, 2013 at 10:14am     
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misstommie
7 years ago we bought a '90's home which had a big oval tub and a separate shower. Since we never ever want to soak in a bath full of dirty, tepid water....we removed the tub and added 120 sq. ft. to the master bath - space for a 6x6 shower with vaulted ceiling and luxurious add'l space to the two closets. Then the existing shower became space for a full size stacked washer/dryer. The shower has a rain head, regular wall shower, a hand held shower and 4 body sprays. There's no door - you just walk in! Having the w/d so hear to closets and dresser drawers save millions of steps carrying our socks and underwear across the house (through the formal living room!) to the laundry room (the house has over 4000 sq. ft!) Oh! and the laundry room next to garage became a charming home office with custom computer center, cabinets and book shelves. After friends saw what we did - at least 3 other couples remodeled their master baths as well.....removing the stupid tubs that they had never used for years and are dangerous when older! Now we are custom building a new home and have again planned the new master bathroom to have only a huge walk in shower and laundry center. Our Realtor was dubious that anyone would want to buy a $600,000+ house that did not have a "proper master bathroom with tub".....well our house sold in 1 week.....the buyers thought our improvements were "spot on"! Be brave!
July 14, 2013 at 2:51pm     
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mbbgill
So glad that You do not need a Designer, but many people are not blessed w/ you creativity & intelligence! As a professional Designer in Naples, I agree w/ Jan that an objective third professional party adds value to any project & also helps save a client from making expensive mistakes:) I am in the beginning stages of remodeling my Master Bath & am replacing my 25 year old tub/shower combination w/ a fairly new product, a heated air jetted tub! Alleviates the bacteria problem that the older jacuzzi tubs face. Both my Husband & myself enjoy nothing more than a relaxing bath & glass of wine! Good luck w/ your dilemma & I also highly recommend using your local professionals to help you make it functional & beautiful....
July 14, 2013 at 3:27pm     
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JAN MOYER
I do believe if money were the heart and soul of what designers do for a living, none of us would do it., and certainly not for very long. Having said that, did the poster mention a need in this room for a laundry? Does she perhaps have one she enjoys on another floor, or even on THIS floor? What are the dimensions of this room? Does she perhaps need a larger linen closet, or desire a large vanity? What, beyond these two photos, and a very brief "I'd like to remodel" comment, has made any aware of her needs in this space? What does her master bedroom look like? Does she have the best location for this bath? The only location for this bath? If a potential client sent me two photos, and a two line wish list, my prompt answer would be..." I would love to meet and see your home, talk about what you like and what you NEED, and how you'd like your space to feel. Let's see what is possible, and what dollars you had in mind to accomplish your goal, and possibly I will have an idea or two that you have not considered" Btw.......that meeting is free.
I will take the liberty of speaking on behalf of us all. You are correct. Not everyone, or every situation requires a designer. Only those where you feel you may like help. For those who want to go alone in their journey, ALL of us are fine with exactly that. We don't knock on doors, we are INVITED, and with only one good reason. Someone desires a result and the most for their money in that result. I would say that covers it. And good for you if you don't need help : ) Implications that any of us are job searching, ( hah!) while trying to encourage a client to seek LOCAL help for their project is......not a pretty face on any of our good advice or intentions, or the comment above. Despite our often pretty faces.... we work hard, we earn our results for clients, and the financial fruits thereof.
July 14, 2013 at 3:39pm     
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hilltop1155
I'm not a designer and have never hired a designer for kitchen or bath, but I have seen that many can benefit from the input of professionals. For example, whoever did this poster's bathroom design could have certainly used some advice. Some people can organize and visualize, some can't.

I do wish folks wouldn't be disrespectful of others who are trying to help the poster. No, there wasn't enough information to make a concrete judgment, but it doesn't hurt to start with some ideas to open the conversation. Hopefully the poster won't be put off by the interpersonal nonsense and will simply post more information so more substantial assistance can be offered.
July 14, 2013 at 3:46pm     
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lindalldoberdogs
Just saw Bath crashes last Saturday, and they took out tub, turned it around, took out sinks, had a curved wall and shelf for the tub, put huge rain shower where one of the sinks was. And put in a sky light. It was totally awesome. Put in a huge two sink vanity on other side of tub, with integrated tv in the mirror!!!
July 15, 2013 at 9:40am     
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mmmmk
misstommie- Thanks for the insight. I think we will not add a tub to our remodel after much consideration It will just take up money we could spend on cabinets and a walk in closet.! was worried as had a few people tell me it wouldn't sell without a tub. Will put plumbing up to a spot where a tub could be just as a precaution for future sale. That won't cost much.!
July 15, 2013 at 10:36am   
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Judy M
This thread could have been started by a contest entry, (as many of the recent laundry/bath posts seem to be.

It's a shame that so many people have spent time trying to help someone that might not be prepared to do anything to their bathroom, they are just hoping to win the contest. The poster has not even returned for responses.
July 15, 2013 at 11:05am     
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Pam Ozment
I don't understand what you mean by a contest entry...how does that work for those of us who don't know? Thanks!
July 15, 2013 at 12:13pm   
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Leigh
A couple of months ago I had this same discussion on Houzz. I wanted to remove my jetted tub & got soooo many people saying it will decrease the property value, blah blah blah. I didn't have one in the previous house we built & now have removed the one in the house we recently purchased. I love a big shower. I don't use the tub & it takes up valuable real estate in the bathroom. I say ... if you intend to use it & clean it fine... but I bet after you go through all that you won't find it "oh so relaxing"...just one more thing to take care of. Cleaning the shower is much easier. Not having a tub in the house we sold didn't impact the sale, in fact we got more than our asking price & the house sold in 3 weeks... I truly believe those jetted tubs were a fad ... along with the stupid windows they seemed to pair with them
July 15, 2013 at 12:13pm     
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Center Stage Design
Do you even use the tub? If not, I would recommend taking it out and replace with a doorless shower feature with a ceiling mounted rainfall showerhead. This would allow more room to expand the vanity areas.
July 15, 2013 at 12:25pm     
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Judy M
Lowes and Houzz have a contest going on.
July 15, 2013 at 12:26pm   
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Anne
Lots of hit and run posters over the last couple of weeks since the $50,000 contest started. This one is different in that there were actual pictures posted. Most of the others are just pleas for help and no pictures, no floor plans, and no response to input.
July 15, 2013 at 12:38pm   
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Emily Hurley
Hi Guys, Lowe's and Houzz partner twice a year with sweepstakes for room makeovers. We've got one currently going on for a new bathroom and laundry room, so there have been an influx of people asking for feedback on those spaces after they enter the contest. Their posts are not contest entries, they are just trying out the site. :) Let's do our best to welcome them and show them what a great community Houzz has.

For those that are curious, you can see the entry details here: https://www.houzz.com/lowes/s=hz
July 15, 2013 at 12:43pm     
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Stone Interiors LLC
Jlreber- It’s obvious the person whom designed this room must have loved bath time and that is why it takes precedence over the space. I think there is a good opportunity to turn this tired bath room into a gem without reconfiguring the space too much.

SIE is not an interior designer but we have seen this layout done & done well. Attached is a photograph that may give you some inspiration on your remodel.

If you have any questions concerning natural stone, please don’t hesitate to ask.

Best of luck in your remodeling!
July 15, 2013 at 12:57pm     
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victorianbungalowranch
$50,000! That is half the value of my house in small town America, nearly 2,000 sq. ft. and in pretty good shape. I could spend that money on way more than a bathroom and laundry remodel!
July 15, 2013 at 4:09pm     
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ccr1492
I just got rid of one of those white elephants What a space hog and so out of date. Made my bathroom so much bigger. Put in a sleek kohler tub undermount. Took out a shower enclosure and had new shower tiled. Laid new modern 12 by 12 tiles. It will cost you some (mine around $12,000) but worth every penny
July 15, 2013 at 5:56pm   
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OTM Designs & Remodeling Inc.
We would love to help you redesign and remodel your bathroom and turn it into a style that reflects what you deserve. Feel free to contact us www.otm1designs.com
July 16, 2013 at 9:53am   
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travisinteriors
First hire someone that knows what they are doing. Never pay all monies up front. Look at bath remodels on Internet. Get a idea what you want how much thou want to spend and go for it. Oh yeah be prepared to lose the use of bath rm for a couple of months. And it will be expensive. So choose wisely . Get referrals.
July 16, 2013 at 10:32am   
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travisinteriors
Lose the gold faucets dated. Get vanity with storage. Put other storage in bath for towels etc. I would remove the big tub and re arrange tub to run other way. A big shower with travertine and glass tile. A stream shower is nice. With multiple shower heads.
July 16, 2013 at 10:35am   
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travisinteriors
What do you mean by a contest.? To see how many comments they can get? Oh boy...If true Houzz should be able to monitor this.
July 16, 2013 at 10:37am     
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travisinteriors
I agree with the comments about bath tubs. I think they are on the way out. The last few new model homes I looked at did not have a tub in master. But did in the 2 nd bedroom bath. When I asked the builder about this, he said after a market research. Most people said they wouldn't use a tub. Unless they had very young children.
July 16, 2013 at 10:41am   
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travisinteriors
Houzz, if a contest is going on, the post should be marked as a contest. Don't waste my time.
July 16, 2013 at 10:44am   
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Klein Kitchen and Bath
Most Kitchen and bath companies offer free consultation and design. You may find its worthwhile going with a professional can actually save you money by designing it right - it definatley seems like a strange setup but there are many ways it can be made into a fantastic and user friendly room.
July 16, 2013 at 3:39pm   
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JAN MOYER
@travisinteriors
I do agree, if it's some sort of Houzz contest, it should probably be designated as such. But there is nobody forcing any of us to proffer advice , so I guess we (particularly those of us in the business) do it for the fun, even though posters vaporize, provide insufficient information etc., and the threads often get unnecessarily lengthy or repetitive. We jump in of free will, and no poster or dilemma can waste our time without our "permission" : ) It's like speed dating? lol.
July 16, 2013 at 3:51pm     
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Carolyn Albert-Kincl, ASID
Without the kiss! :)
July 16, 2013 at 5:45pm     
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JAN MOYER
@ carolyn albert Kincaid
TOOOOOOO FUNNY!!! AND TOOOOO TRUE!
July 16, 2013 at 5:47pm     
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marthawilliams
We rarely used the large garden tub in our 1990's master bath; our recent remodel included removing the corner garden tub and installing a large shower with a bench across one end. A frameless shower door and skylight above allow added light in the bath area. We did include a new soaking "bubble tub" which has a feature that dries itself after the water is drained out. I love it and this tub definitely is worth the money. Hand-held wands in the shower and on the tub are extras that also are wonderful.
July 17, 2013 at 3:22am   
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victorianbungalowranch
I wonder if huge showers for 10 will go out of style one of these days too. A decent combination tub/shower is good enough for me.
July 17, 2013 at 4:49am   
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Emily S
I also wonder about the huge shower trend. How many people do you need to fit in a shower? Nevermind, don't tell me. I have a soaker tub in my master bath which I use almost every day and love. Although I will admit at my last house we put in a jetted tub and I used the jets maybe twice. They were loud and hard to clean.
July 17, 2013 at 5:08am   
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JAN MOYER
The shower trend to gigantic, while impressive.....is indeed a tad over the top. Unless of course you work for a circus and must wash elephants. In other scenarios, 4' x 6' is plenty!!! darn generous, and more perhaps if there are disability needs. Other than that?? Too big to feel cozy!!
July 17, 2013 at 5:14am   
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indianpatti
Those elephant-sized showers are hard to clean .. unless you have a maid, I would not want one.
July 17, 2013 at 5:52am   
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misstommie
As Jan sez - a 4x6 / a 5x6 /or even 6x6 shower is plenty big! A BIG consideration for a walk-in shower is that it accommodates older folks in wheel chairs.....ours does not have a "lip" to step over. The shower floor was nicely designed with a slight slope to the center drain. Water does not collect in the shower area! No glass door needed.....so wonderful! Just another feature you don't have to clean! Regarding cleaning a big shower space depends largely on your water and the amounts of lime, calcium etc. is in it. Also, the way particular tiles react to the water. When our Realtor commented on the absence of a tub in the master bath....we simply fired back...."well there are other houses to buy"....make your home functional for you - especially if you plan to live in it for awhile. When we were "corporate gypsies", we always kept "resale" in the forefront of our updating efforts (10 major moves in 20 years!) .....but alas! Everybody has their own ideas and you can't always please the next folks who might buy your beloved home. So do what you want!
July 17, 2013 at 6:37am     
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marthawilliams
We chose a 4 x 6 ft. shower with a shower head at one end and a wand near the bench across the other end. This is going to come in really handy when my husband has knee replacement next month! ( we're in our 60's, but still enjoy this size shower).
July 17, 2013 at 7:34am     
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vgunter
With all due respect to people that prefer taking a shower rather than tub baths. But nothing can replace being able to sit in a jetted, slipper or any other type of tub that is comfortable. Things have a tendency to repeat themselves so think twice about removing an exisiting tub or building a new structure without a tub would be worth considering. When I run a 5k, 13k or 26k nothing is more rewarding than to be able to soak in a nice warm tub filled with soaking salts.lol
July 17, 2013 at 11:12am   
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JAN MOYER
As they say .......to each according to their need, and WANT : )
July 17, 2013 at 11:45am   
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misstommie
Really? It's "rewarding" to sit in tepid water? Whoa! 37 years ago, my OB-GYN instructed me NOT to take baths - only showers. After some simple descriptions of what's in your own bath water, I NEVER wanted to take a tub bath again! Ha! We've lived 14 years (two different houses!) without a tub in the master bath and never missed it! EVERYONE who sees our space loves it and as I said before, several (friends) couples have re-done their master baths as well and removed the tubs and agree with us. We're all in our mid 60's and are more concerned about safety, efficiency and function. Oh! My husband says that there's no tub design that he can relax in....it's either too difficult to get into/out of or it's too shallow or too short or the slant back doesn't fit and then after using substances in the water the rings and gunk has to be cleaned.....no thanks!
July 17, 2013 at 12:05pm     
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Teri Fronabarger
To Martha Williams: My husband had knee replacement and we had put in a hand held sprayer. He found it easier to stand and take a regular shower. I wrapped his knee tightly with that saran looking box wrap. Worked great!
July 17, 2013 at 2:01pm     
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hilltop1155
We went with a 5x5 barrier free shower with no door because it is our retirement home and we were allowing for a wheelchair. We also put in an air tub, the type that will circulate warm air for 90 seconds after use to dry the pipes. Some people just like an occasional tub bath. Each must decide for himself. I guess people with strong opinions might not buy the house, one way or the other. (Like marthawilliams, I placed a normal shower head at one end and a handheld sprayer at the other.). If this were a resale house I would have installed a regular 5' tub/shower combo unless we had special needs that required something different. We live in our homes for 15-20 years, though, so we made it work for us. If your master bath is on a second floor I don't see much need to have a huge shower in the typical home. Just my opinion.
July 17, 2013 at 3:32pm     
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bulletjules
The real question is...how often do you use that tub or a tub in general? If not often then get rid of it and remodel a shower area instead. By getting rid of the but you can place a beautiful sink and cabinet combo against the entire way. The wall in your comode area isn't a load bearing way and can be taken down with a few blows of a good hammer. Think outside the box!
July 17, 2013 at 5:31pm   
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beverett1
What are the thoughts about floor materials for a master bath.... I see a lot of tile being used, but I wonder as I age whether it would be better to have a softer surface if I were to fall. Is there better resale value wit the tile floors?
July 17, 2013 at 6:06pm   
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JAN MOYER
@beverett
Tile prevails as it is so water resistant, and easy to sanitize. Nobody wants a fall, so sturdy grab bars in the shower, and even on a wall , or near the toilet are the best bet as folks age. In fact, assisted living facilities discourage scatter rugs, as elderly people tend to shuffle their feet, or have mobility aids which can tangle up in the rugs, and cause more harm than help. The firmer the surface, the more stability provided.
July 17, 2013 at 6:14pm     
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beverett1
Jan, thanks for letting me know. That answers why I don't see a lot of vinyl any more.
July 17, 2013 at 6:51pm     
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bevballew
Has the owner said anything? I don't see a response. Is there a shower in the room? I agree get a professional at least to look and give you a price and suggestions. I love tubs so I think to keep it but if other tubs in the house then a tub would not be necessary in the bathroom.
July 17, 2013 at 8:28pm   
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Urbanxt Design
This barthroom is laid out in the style of classic symmetry you would find in ancient roman bath houses. So I guess this stunning bath has to stay because it is an important element in your cleansing ritual. If symmetry is an issue because it fits in with your decor then perhaps locating it centrally against a wall might be the solution.
July 17, 2013 at 9:27pm   
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pao2086
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July 26, 2013 at 9:20pm   
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bevballew
If you need more storage replace the sinks with a cabinet with perhaps if enough of room storage above the sink with a mirror in between. I think the bathroom is nice and does not require a total redo if you do not want to,,,,but I am a bath person. I think the bathroom is luxurious and just needs color or wallpaper or,the finishing touch.
July 27, 2013 at 5:49am   
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jwhiteclassic
You may find the perfect tub at www.classicwhirlpools.com
July 27, 2013 at 6:00am   
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