New kitchen
The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
December 28, 2013 in Design Dilemma
We're getting ready to build and here is the kitchen layout as it stands. I'm stuck, though. The raised counter will have bar stools and that's where everyone hangs out so I don't like the idea of it overlooking a sink especially if it's full of pots and pans, etc. But I'm not wild about the idea of the sink being up against the wall as it's shown here either. Any suggestions?
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Dytecture
Can the doorways be moved at the lower left corner of the plan? Would be helpful if you show more of the adjacent rooms.
December 28, 2013 at 10:20AM   
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Northshore Kitchens Plus
Can you show more of the plan behind the wall of where kitchen sink is shown? Thanks, Ken
December 28, 2013 at 10:25AM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Here is a bigger pic. The kitchen opens up to the great room on the right.. A morning room opens to a screen area. "Behind" the kitchen on the left is a stair case...and across from the stairs are some bedrooms and baths. The "lower" part of the kitchen (the bottom of the picture) leads to the dining room. Let me know if you need to see even more of the other rooms.
December 28, 2013 at 10:38AM   
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alfredof
do you have an elevation drawing to get a better idea? Is the raised conter area you are talking about the 5'-9 5/8" area? the area where the sink is now, is that a lower and upper cabinet? are you able or willing to to move the sink plumbing to another location?
December 28, 2013 at 10:53AM   
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Lynne Mysliwiec
I put my sink on my peninsula and the sink is an extra deep kraus stainless steel rectangular undermount. Unless piled HIGH with dishes, it's possible to cook a meal, rinse and stack in the sink and no one seated at the bar really notices the dishes. The sink is large enough to keep my dish drainer in it.
December 28, 2013 at 11:01AM     
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alfredof
Just saw your latest floor plan post so now I have a better idea, an elevation drawing of the kitchen if you have one would help and also if you are able to move the sink plumbing for the idea I have in mind
December 28, 2013 at 11:02AM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
This is all I have at the moment. The raised counter is the curved portion that is a continuation of the counter where the stove is currently. That is a full wall behind the stove. Around the sink area, there are lower cabinets for sure. I need upper cabinets on that wall, but I don't want to feel closed in, so I was thinking about splitting them up on either side of the sink. I'm willing to move anything at the moment. I was also thinking about having the raised counter come off the other side instead....make it a continuation of the counter that currently has the sink. I keep thinking I'd like the kitchen to open up more on the great room side so you don't have to walk around that counter to enter the kitchen. Does that make sense??
December 28, 2013 at 11:05AM     
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
I considered moving the sink to that "corner" portion of the peninsula but I've always heard that sinks in corners are awkward.
December 28, 2013 at 11:07AM   
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alfredof
ok thanks for the info, I'll work with that
December 28, 2013 at 11:09AM      Thanked by The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
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kao7
I wouldn't worry about the sink in the peninsula. We are at the end of our build and we have a huge copper apron front single bowl sink in our island and I actually love it. The majority of the time it will be our three girls sitting at the island and it's nice to be able to chat with them while getting dishes done. During entertaining, unless you have an enormous kitchen, guests are going to see dishes no matter where the sink is. If they don't like it, have them clean them!! ;) I like the layout!
December 28, 2013 at 11:14AM     
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Northshore Kitchens Plus
Definitely would reverse sink & DW so DW door does not restrict the flow at the penninsula area, if it were to stay in it's current location. I don't like the stove being on the opposite side of the room from the sink. Could move sink to where the stove is and move cooktop/ slide in range to the penninsula. This will give good flow to taking food from the refrigerator, cleaning it at the sink, prep it between sink and cooktop and then cooking it! Love the pantry idea. It certainly is the storage solution for this space.
December 28, 2013 at 11:15AM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
LOL..thanks kao7. The thing is, we have a tremendous mountain view out the back, plus the great room is to my back so I hate to miss out on both of those things. Wish the kitchen was a little bigger so I could have an island and a prep sink, but I opted to have a morning room with built ins instead. There comes a time when a kitchen can be too big and it's exhausting to work in if you cook a lot....like I do.
December 28, 2013 at 11:18AM     
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Northshore: this will be a gas stove and since I don't care for the ones with the back draft, it will require a hood. That's why I have it on a solid wall. That was an excellent catch on the DW!! How do you feel about putting the sink on the "curve" of the peninsula?
December 28, 2013 at 11:32AM   
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Lynne Mysliwiec
Definitely a standard hood rather than a downdraft -- I have never heard good things about downdraft hoods and I did a LOT of research. The sink on the curve or the straight of the peninsula and the dw under the peninsula will give you a very efficient work triangle that is completely out of the traffic lane.

Am imagining kids and guests circulating around kitchen & see a person standing at sink in that lane while people and pets walk through -- could be a very unhappy pinch point in the kitchen -- and with the dishwasher door down, that corridor would have to be at least 5 feet wide to have door down and traffic.
December 28, 2013 at 11:44AM   
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Lynne Mysliwiec
with no sink or dw on that wall, you could put floor-to-ceiling storage on that wall which would offset the loss of storage from moving dw and sink into the U.
December 28, 2013 at 11:49AM   
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Lynne Mysliwiec
If you want to see sink in peninsula, here is link to my kitchen
December 28, 2013 at 12:01PM   
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Northshore Kitchens Plus
I like a bowl & 1/2 with the small bowl on the left and the dishwasher on the left. That way, the smaller utility/prep bowl can be used by the cook and assuming that the 2nd person is not the same person as the 1st- then the 2nd person doing the cleanup can work to the left. It is important to stay away from conflicts in the space as much as possible. This keeps the triangle working well on one side of the kitchen without having to go across the room. Don't worry about the people sitting at the bar stools watching you do all the work- just throw an apron at them and put them to work. When it comes time to drink the wine, the mess will be cleaned up and you'll solute each other! After all, that's what kitchens are for, aren't they? Looks like a wonderful home. Enjoy and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!
December 28, 2013 at 12:09PM   
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sstarr
The kitchen appears to be positioned as all-interior, no windows; I have a similar kitchen and do not like it. I would rework the plan to allow the kitchen to be oriented around the windows, allowing the stool seating to face the view through the kitchen.
December 28, 2013 at 12:17PM     
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
starr...you are right that it is an interior kitchen. I have struggled with that as well, but there will be a ton of windows and I've always wanted a morning room. At this point, I'm afraid a major redesign of the kitchen would mean a redesign of the whole house.
December 28, 2013 at 12:19PM   
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marthak99
I suggest moving the cooktop to the wall where the sink is, and moving the dishwasher to the place where the cooktop was, then put the sink in the curved portion of the peninsula to the left of the DW as was suggested by another post. That was just about the configuration for my last house. I liked it because I spent a lot more time at the sink than at the cooktop during the course of the day (washing hands, rinsing things, filling glasses and vases), and I could enjoy my view of the woods behind our house. I also had a sitting bar on the opposite side of the sink, and no one ever said anything about dirty dishes in the sink! I think you would enjoy your view more often that way.
December 28, 2013 at 12:26PM     
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Lynne Mysliwiec
marthak99 - but then the cooktop will be in the traffic lane...
December 28, 2013 at 3:00PM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Well, this is sort of a galley kitchen so I do see how to avoid something being in the traffic pattern.
December 28, 2013 at 4:19PM     
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Kathryn Peltier Design
I would completely change what you are doing here. I would put the refrigerator and the pantry on the stair wall, making that a full cabinet wall, floor to ceiling (with perhaps a counter space either side of the refrigerator for a landing surface). Now you have continuous counter space overlooking the great room. Putting your sink on the angled portion, looking into the great room, is a good location. Although it would take up more space, I think it would be a nice design element to angle your range in the opposite corner (where the pantry is now). This layout gives you good counter space on both sides of both your sink and your range, and it keeps ALL of the major working area of the kitchen on one side. The refrigerator works best on the back wall by itself, too, because this will be accessed all the time by people other than the cook, so they can do so without tripping over the cook! If this entire back wall is cabinetry, you will probably find that you can do with even fewer wall cabinets on the great room side, and open it up even a bit more. I don't know if I can draw this for you - my computer and printer/scanner do not seem to be communicating at the moment!

Think of your back wall as the right hand portion of this photo
Cubbage Kitchen 5

Contemporary Budget Kitchen

J. Hirsch Interior Design Portfolio

Angled island with sink
Pulling it all together
Schnicke Gallery

Range in corner:
Paragon Kitchen
Kitchen remodel island
December 28, 2013 at 5:03PM     
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Kathryn Peltier Design
Here is a photo which is fairly representative of what I am talking about, if you can imagine the range in the corner instead of on the back wall

December 28, 2013 at 5:11PM     
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Wow does that give me something to think about! Options I hadn't even considered. Seeing the picture of the sink on the curve convinced me that that is a good idea. And I actually do like the idea of the range on the back wall. Just not sure how I feel about a whole bank of cabinets on one side. The design of the house is modern farm house. I had actually extended the wall past the range in order to give myself more cabinets but to give myself some wall space in the great room for art work, etc. Geeze....so much to think about now. Great ideas.
December 28, 2013 at 6:54PM   
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mkmort
You might want to look at some of the wall pantries that are posted. I know there have been several dilemmas on what to do about the door. And I think you would probably enjoy more continuous counter work space.

December 28, 2013 at 7:24PM     
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Kathryn Peltier Design
ncclayteam: I think the full wall of cabinets would fit very well with the modern farm house look. It doesn't have to be just solid doors. Mix it up: glass doors, open cabinets, a counter space or two. You could even have the interior of glass/open cabinets done in a different finish which might match the sink wall. Look at the photo of the J. Hirsch kitchen with the little display cabinets along the top. You can even mix your hardware. Make it an interesting, eye-catching arrangement, not just a slab of doors. I really do think it is the answer, however, to making this kitchen functionally work in the best way possible.
December 28, 2013 at 7:26PM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
Look at some of these cabinets. This one - to the right - has a combination of drawers and display cabinets.
Crisp Architects

A MUCH more contemporary kitchen, but interesting use of full-length frosted glass doors
Electrolux Inspiration

This one may have more the feel you're going for
VP Interiors 2010

Chapel Hill Residence

Glamorous Four Square

Rather than tall cabinets, you could do base cabinets with cabinets sitting on top. That would give you a good way to incorporate an open counter or two and might make it less monolithic feeling for you.
Well-dressed Traditional Kitchen
December 28, 2013 at 7:39PM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Thanks...we need a lot of pantry space and I've learned from experience that I don't like deep pantries...unless they are large enough to walk into. I'll have to go look at some wall pantries and see if they'd give me enough storage.
December 28, 2013 at 7:39PM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
One more comment on this proposed cabinet wall: stepping the cabinets back a bit at one or both ends, or in the middle, is another way to create interest. For instance, the cabinets on each end could be a few inches shallower than the typical 24" depth. Also, if you go this route, pick out your refrigerator before making a final decision on cabinet depths. Even if you go with a regular depth refrigerator, you can pull the cabinets out to the same depth, making it appear to be built in. Let's say the refrigerator you choose is 32" deep - you can pull the cabinets on either side out to the 32" depth, maybe do one cabinet at 28"d and then do the rest at the standard 24". This doesn't cost anything more - you are simply pulling the standard depth cabinetry away from the wall, but it gives a very custom look.
December 28, 2013 at 7:43PM     
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sillegirl
Move the sink to the 5 foot wall on the peninsula, the DW in the angled portion. Tear out the pantry and move to wear the sink is currently located and then side the range down towards the corner a bit. Move the refrigerator down to the end of the wall or build around it with tall pantries on the existing sink wall. If you leave refrigerator as is, then the new pantry wall could have a nice staging area in the middle where the sink is now.
December 28, 2013 at 8:41PM   
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lefty47
HI -- Square off the peninsula and put the sink and dishwasher there . Get rid of the angled corner pantry and put the pantry cabinet on the smaller left side wall with the fridge and any other tall storage . That smaller wall where you had the sink shown should be all tall full storage with the fridge . Just have cabinets and extra counter space with uppers where the angled corner pantry was . No corner angled cabinets , that just makes wasted and awkward spaces .
December 28, 2013 at 9:10PM     
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Thanks for all the great suggestions. I think I'll the leave the pantry where it is for a couple of reasons. First...I calculated the amount of storage space in there and how easily accessible it all is and unless my math is wrong there is no way I could transfer that much storage to one long bank of cabinets. Even if I could, the build out costs would be significantly more. On the wall, it would require cabinetry, hardware, and some pretty snazzy whistles and bells on the inside to give me the kind of storage I'm looking for. The current pantry will be large enough to be almost like a butler pantry. But, I will be moving the sink to the penninsula and putting the range on the other side where the sink is shown now.
December 29, 2013 at 6:53AM   
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Mean Design
If I were stuck with the walls how they are, I would not do a built-in pantry in the corner, but rather do shallow (12"d) pantry cabinets along the wall where the sink is now; that way the cook can move freely between appliances/fixtures, and the traffic going through the kitchen doesn't affect the cook. You can use the space added from the removal of the built-in pantry for your sink and dishwasher. You may need to shift the frig to the right a bit, and remove the counter between it and the doorway. Or... you could put the frig where the sink is on the plan, and flank it with the pantry cabinets, and have that whole corner for your sink and dishwasher.
December 29, 2013 at 9:07AM        Thanked by The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
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alfredof
Here is my suggestion move the sink and the dishwasher to the opposite side that way is away from the passage through the kitchen and it gives you a lot of counter space, especially if you are having a group of people and you set up the food as a buffet (as we usually do at the family gatherings) this also hides the view of the sink from the people gathering around the bar and the morning room, also by moving the sink and dishwasher to the peninsula, it gives you a great flow, Pantry, fridge, stove, counter cooking space, sink, trash underneath and dishwasher all in flow and away from movement of the guest, by the way all the dimensions are in scale based on the dimensions on your floor plan
December 29, 2013 at 9:26AM        Thanked by The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
More and more I'm thinking this makes the most sense. Alfredof...what do you think about putting the DW on the right side of the sink instead? Not sure if it would interfere with the oven on the right...but worry about it being open on the left and creating a "road block". I'm on the fence. I also think my stove is going to end up being a 40" GE...the kind with a small oven and a larger oven. But...I've not decided which is more economical - a slide in or a range top with double wall ovens.
December 29, 2013 at 9:43AM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
Putting the range on the back wall (stair wall) means you will be transferring pots with water, etc. from wall to wall, and across the traffic pattern. Also, with the refrigerator on that end wall next to the pantry, you are guaranteed to have traffic walking diagonally through the cooking area all the time. You can build pantries on the back wall - they don't have to be cabinets. You can purchase cabinet fronts ONLY so that they would match the other cabinetry but the guts would be site built. You could flank your refrigerator with pantry units, even using different doors (which might be interesting, especially if could find some interesting vintage doors). Storage is very important - no doubt about it - but the traffic pattern is at least as important, if not more so in many respects. http://www.pinterest.com/pin/26036504065929680/

Vintage screen door as pantry door



If you really are set on keeping the pantry on the same wall, I would consider changing the shape a bit so that you can keep your cooktop on that wall and at least move the refrigerator to the stair wall.
December 29, 2013 at 9:54AM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
A range is usually a more economical purchase than a cooktop and wall ovens. However, when you are using a cooktop you need to tend to it; not so with the oven, so it is oftentimes good for the oven(s) to go elsewhere and to gain the storage underneath the cooktop where it is more accessible. You have the entire stair wall for wall ovens if you go in that direction.
December 29, 2013 at 9:57AM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
If you put the sink on the diagonal, keeping the DW at the end won't create the same kind of road block to the sink. Since you don't have any wall cabinets around the DW, consider where you will keep the dishes (I would assume this would be in the cabinetry on the stair wall). You want to make emptying the DW as effortless as possible (i.e. you don't want to have to unload the majority to one surface only to have to move them again to another location)
December 29, 2013 at 10:14AM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Kathryn - funny you should use that picture of the screen door. That is exactly what we plan to do. Not that particular one, but a screen door. Since it is currently a walk in pantry, I love the idea. But let me ask you this...the way I figure my current pantry, I have basically 2 walls that each give me me shelving that is about 4ft x 7ft. (figuring a 9 ft ceiling minus a foot at the top and bottom). There is a 5 shelves lazy susan at the corner. This doesn't even include a higher shelf on the left as you walk in. That's a lot of storage capacity. How can I possibly translate that to the "stair" wall without eating up nearly all of the wall?
December 29, 2013 at 10:28AM     
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Oh...as for the DW...my current kitchen is about this size and the DW is on a wall caty corner to where I store the dishes. Yes, it would be nice to have dish storage right next to the DW, but it's not a big deal for me.
December 29, 2013 at 10:29AM   
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Lynne Mysliwiec
BTW, a galley kitchen is a hallway with cabinets and appliances on both sides - it is a straight line. You have a u-shaped kitchen, which is not a galley kitchen.
December 29, 2013 at 10:43AM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
you're right Lynne.
December 29, 2013 at 10:44AM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
It will eat up most of that wall, since that wall looks like it is essentially 10' long. If you put a 2.5' - 3' refrigerator in there, that is it. You will, of course, gain the space from the original pantry location as extra storage on that side, but you are right: you are getting more storage in the total kitchen by using that corner than you will by putting it on the other wall. I know that the refrigerator next to it "fits" well, but I still think it is about the worst location - from a traffic pattern - that you could have. Normally you want the refrigerator closest to the main traffic pattern, on the outside of the cooking area, so everyone can access it without bothering the cook.

If you put the sink somewhere in the peninsula, it doesn't leave a lot of work space if the cooktop is also in the run before the corner pantry. You might have enough room to the right of the pantry, but it would be tight and there would be not contiguous counter space. On the other hand, putting the cooktop/range on the stairwall means you are crossing a major traffic pattern to get to it. This is a case of priorities I think these are your best choices:
1. Move pantry on to stair wall along with refrigerator.
2.Keep corner pantry and move refrigerator on to stair wall.
3.Keep corner pantry and move cooktop/range to stair wall.

Since you want to keep the compact storage that the corner pantry provides, I think you have to decide which is more important to YOU: a) having the cooking space on the sink side, without traffic invading the work area (but also means more restricted counter space); or, having the cooktop/range on the stair wall, which allows more counter space on the sink side but also makes traffic to the refrigerator walk diagonally through the cooking space.

Do you have children? How old are they? One thing that can work pretty well is to build in a small snack refrigerator somewhere else, so that that traffic can pretty much bypass the main refrigerator!
December 29, 2013 at 10:51AM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
This seems somewhat counterintuitive because it adds yet another entrance to the kitchen, but I think you would have room to make the open peninsula an island instead, rectangular about 4' x 7' (the long side at right angles to the stair wall). The sink and dishwasher could go in the island. There would be an opening behind the island, essentially where the range is shown now. The cooktop/range would then go in the stair wall and the pantry and refrigerator stay in the corner/back wall. What this does is create a more circular pattern through the kitchen. Most of the refrigerator traffic would then be funneled off the hallway going to the back door (I assume that's where it goes) rather than between the sink and cooktop. Just something else to think about!
December 29, 2013 at 11:00AM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
Note: an island 4' deep would not have a raised bar height counter shielding it from the family room but it would still provide seating space on the outside, a lot of workspace and/or serving space.
December 29, 2013 at 11:03AM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
That's the thing. It's just two of us. No kids so the whole issue of traffic through the kitchen is a non-event. The issue I have right now with my kitchen is not enough prep space on either side of the stove and I'm afraid that putting everything on one side, I'll be right back to feeling squeezed. I was just looking at prices and realized the range I wanted is $11,000. OK, that's not going to happen. So I'm comparing a 36" 5 burner gas cook top plus a double wall oven. I wish there was such a thing as a double oven that is two sizes....a large one for turkey dinners, and small one for just baking a casserole or a couple of potatoes. But I don't see that. So then, factor back in the micro. UGH. I need a bigger kitchen! LOL I might look at moving the fridge over to the stair wall and building cabinets around it so it's built in. Then I could use that back wall where the fridge was for the two wall ovens. Would that work?
December 29, 2013 at 11:06AM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
PS...since wall space is a premium....do you have any experience with these microwave drawers that I see??
December 29, 2013 at 11:07AM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
A friend of mine who oversees construction for a builder also suggested an island instead. Gotta think about that a minute. Her point was to open the kitchen up more to the great room.
December 29, 2013 at 11:09AM   
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Lynne Mysliwiec
I have friends with the microwave drawer & they like it. I know what you mean about having prep space on both sides of stove (and both sides of sink, for that matter). My u-shape is in the same order that alfredof recommended for your kitchen -- dishwasher to the left of sink, which allows for space for dirty dishes going into dw or into sink, then into dw. Sink, then the space between sink and stove for staging items that have been prepped in sink (like peeling potatoes & filling pot with water), then moving clockwise to stove to cook. prep area between stove and fridge is great - when I made cookies for the first time in the new layout, I took the chilled dough from the fridge, put it on the space between fridge and stove to roll it out and cut it and load the oven. Top of stove and space to left and space on dishwasher used for cooling racks. VERY efficient. In my old kitchen it was a lot more steps with the refrigerator on the flat wall like yours against the stairs, and the sink/stove opposite.
December 29, 2013 at 11:18AM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
I give in. After reading everyone's suggestions, which were very similar, and seeing alfredof's drawing, I went to my kitchen and did some measuring. I taped off the dimensions of the pantry on the plan and realized just how small it really is by the time you put even 14" shelves in there. So................shoot. Now I'm looking back at all the options that everyone has already mentioned, including moving the pantry to the stair wall. I'm concerned about also moving the fridge there because of the depth. But at this point, I'm going back to square one so anything is possible.
December 29, 2013 at 1:08PM     
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Kathryn Peltier Design
Ahhh, ncclayteam, I think we've confused everything for you - sorry. You don't need 14"D shelves in your pantry! You may want a few that are deeper, but on the whole, you can get by with a much shallower shelf. Measure the items that you buy regularly and work backwards from there. Small appliances can either be kept in your pantry or can be put on pull-out shelves on the stair wall for easy use. I don't have a photo of my cabinets open, but in this photo, the wall with all the cabinets on it is only 12"D (a bit deeper in the center just for design sake) but the cabinets either side of the MW are pull out shelves with flip up doors. I have a toaster, coffee grinder and blender on one side; a stand=mixer and small food processor in the other. Furthermore, I keep all of my crystal and china, spices, serving pieces, a large coffee percolator, George Foreman grill, waffle maker, candlestick holders, miscellaneous serving pieces - all in 12"D cabinets. So, my point is, you don't need a lot of depth (my pantry is a 24"D x 27"W cabinet with roll=out trays).



The fact that it is just two of you in this kitchen certainly does change the traffic issues, and yet a well-designed kitchen is still a well-designed kitchen.

I do kind of like the idea of an island which would give your kitchen much more flexibility, but it does change the feel of it, being open to the great room. You have to be OK with that.

Yes, prep space is very important. I do think that trying to get the sink and the cooktop on the same side, along with the pantry, is going to make you feel squished. I do like the idea of the wall ovens at the end. That would be a very good place for them - kind of out of the main work area but very convenient. They also wouldn't open into your traffic lane, coming and going from the DR.

I just had a client install a MW drawer, and so far she really seems to like it. The advantage is that you are standing OVER the food, so you can more easily check it and take it out. The disadvantage is that they are still quite pricey and that they are built-in (expensive because you must order special cabinetry and if something goes wrong with it/it needs to be replaced, it's much more expensive). I like to install MWs at counter height, and just make them regular sit-on-the-counter types (again you can see this in my photo). I think the worst place for a MW is over-the-range, especially if you are on the shorter side. It's difficult to check food and can be dangerous to take the dish out of the oven.
December 29, 2013 at 3:41PM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
Don't worry about depth - as I said, that's easy to do by just pulling the cabinets away from the wall to make a refrigerator look built in. Then step the adjoining cabinets back to 24"D or even less.
December 29, 2013 at 3:43PM   
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Lorri Maloney
Put the sink on an angle in the corner, that's what I did and I love it!
December 29, 2013 at 3:50PM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Kathyrn...confusion is my middle name right now! I did a search and found a ton of corner pantry ideas like this but I couldn't tell the size. But even if the shelves were 12 " deep, it still seemed really small. Here's a thought.....Leave the fridge where it is, but move it down a little bit. I need a landing zone next to it, but not a lot. In my current kitchen I don't think it's more than 12" and I have a wine cubby above it. Move the pantry to the stair wall. My current pantry is 4 ft wide so I could go with that with a standard cabinet depth. With the pantry moved to the other wall and the fridge moved a bit to the left, do you think there would be enough space on that wall to put the wall ovens to the right of the cook top and still leave enough prep space?

Still leaves the question of the microwave. I think I'll pass on the drawer version. I have my current micro built it at counter height and love it. Here are a couple of pics of my current kitchen. The fridge is on the hall, around the corner from the wine rack.
December 29, 2013 at 4:17PM     
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Kathryn Peltier Design
Wow, your current kitchen is lovely!

As for the refrigerator, yes, I forgot to mention that about the landing space - good catch. If you move the pantry, though, you would have counter space to the left of the refrigerator, which should be fine. Am I understanding you correctly?

If you are keeping the sink, cooktop and refrigerator on the peninsula wall, why not put your wall ovens on the stair wall? They would not take up as much space as the refrigerator, and could either be placed side-by-side or stacked.

Yes, I think the MW drawer is nice, but a counter style unit or even a built-in unit with a trim kit is much more economical way to go, and I really don't think you're sacrificing anything other than bragging rights to the latest and greatest lol.
December 29, 2013 at 5:37PM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Thanks....I really like this kitchen. We took it to the studs when we bought the house and completely redid it. It was entirely white with awful wall paper when we started.

OK, so going clock wise, there is the sink, then the cook top, then the fridge at the end. That creates a lot more counter space and cabinets to the right of the cook top. Then move the pantry and the wall ovens to the stair wall. Assuming a 4 ft. pantry and 30" wall ovens, I've eaten up 6'6" on that wall...leaves about 4 feet of counter space and cabinets. Of course, if I did a slide in range, then I'd only have to have one wall oven on the stair wall and that could work well with a built in MW Hmmmmm
December 29, 2013 at 6:49PM   
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alfredof
Hello ncclayteam, ok here is the changes based on your conversations, for a perspective all the major appliances are KitchenAid products just because I happened to have the 3D renderings on file, they are a 30” range, a 30” oven/microwave stack, a 35” refrigerator, a 24” dishwasher, also I rendered a down view shot with the dishwasher door open and the three 5’6” avatars, as you can see the layout makes for a good flow of work, and by having the DW in that position someone could be washing dishes while someone else is cooking and not get in each other’s way, the Pantry is 4' wide. Hope this makes it a bit easier for you
December 30, 2013 at 9:22AM     
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
alfredof....has anyone ever told you that you're a wonderful human being? LOL This is fantastic. I have to admit that the wall with wall ovens seems so short, but if it to scale, then it is what it is. Not sure what we'll do next to the fridge, but I suspect I will have a small landing counter with open shelves above and below, unless I discover I need a little more storage, but either way, I'll need a small bit of counter space. Nonetheless, this is so great I don't even know how to thank you.
December 30, 2013 at 9:27AM     
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alfredof
oops, just noticed, the down view render had the cabinet next to the refrig. hidden, here is the corrected render
December 30, 2013 at 9:38AM     
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Kathryn Peltier Design
alfedof, I'm with ncclayteam! Fantastic! What program do you use?
December 30, 2013 at 9:38AM   
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bpadamson
Well, this is full of great ideas. Next year we start the planning for moving our Kitchen, so this is great reading material.
December 30, 2013 at 9:50AM   
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alfredof
Kathryn, Ncclayteam, thank you for the compliments, a little background about me, I retired last January after 40 years from a great career as a conceptual designer/ builder of the custom boat building and custom aircraft interiors industry, my son and his wife bought a home a year ago with the intentions of remodeling to their liking, so the whole thing started with them trying to decide which way to run the grain of the hardwood throughout the house, as I have several design and rendering software I went ahead and got the blueprints to the house and 3D model it and went from there, as they were getting the different quotes and drawings I would model it for them so they could see what it would actually look like, including when buying the furniture to see how it would fit in the room. Had so much fun with it and now that the house is almost done I went, Hmmm this could be a new venture, so her I’m, I also have the ability to do photo realistic renderings where it’s hard to tell from the real thing
December 30, 2013 at 12:01PM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Heck...I'll just send you my whole floor plan! LOL You really have no idea how much I appreciate you doing this. I spend a lot of time in my kitchen and want it the best it can be. This will be the last house for us so there is a lot riding on getting it right.
December 30, 2013 at 12:09PM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
Sorry to hijack your discussion for a moment here, Ncclayteam, but if you're interested in doing this professionally,alfredof, message me. I still draw all my plans by hand (been doing this way too long lol) and I've tried to get up to speed on the computer rendering, but definitely not there. On bigger kitchen projects, it would be nice to offer this to my clients, who - as you know - often not visualize well, even with elevations and isometric drawings. Nice work, and interesting background!
December 30, 2013 at 12:10PM     
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CoHo Properties, Inc.
Glad I read most of the comment thread...because most of my ideas have already been communicated by Kathryn Peltier Design and Alfredof. I think there are some superior alternatives to the original layout. Well done! This is why I enjoy this site....great exchange of ideas.
December 30, 2013 at 12:23PM     
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Have I mentioned how much I love Houzz!
December 30, 2013 at 12:32PM     
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samcdaniel
I am so glad I read all the way through the thread. Ncclayteam, as soon as I saw your drawing I knew you would hate the corner pantry once it got built...too small to be a proper walk in pantry and it impedes the long stretch of counter space that good kitchen design needs. I understood what you were saying about the deep pantries being difficult to work with as stuff gets lost in the back, but really, floor to ceiling cabinetry about 15 inches deep is way more useful. All the suggestions were a great example of crowdsourcing you to the right decision. And the only other thing I would add is that if you have not yet chosen the exact cabinet layout, you will be very happy if you make all of your lower cabinets drawer banks with full extension glides. You can store anything in them, including glasses/dishes/tubs of flour/sugar, and you can see everything at a glance without getting down on the floor and pulling stuff from the front to get to the stuff in the back. Alfredof's rendering shows all the lowers as drawers. This layout as he has designed it will make it so much easier for two people to work in this kitchen. Please do post pictures when it is all done for us! thanks!
December 30, 2013 at 1:21PM     
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Sam - that pantry was a good example of how something can look good on paper, but not in real life. Once we taped it off on the floor, we realized this wouldn't work. I much prefer the add'l counter space this gives me. I'm toying with the placement of the new pantry and the wall ovens and may flip those, but that is way down the list on the decisions at this point. I appreciate your comment so much. In my current kitchen I have one deep drawer with the pull out glides and love it. I have another with all my baking things and didn't put one in there so yes, if I need something in the back, I'm on my knees pulling things out to get to it. Lesson learned! Those glides are a must in this new kitchen. Thanks for weighing in. I'm so grateful for all this wonderful feedback!
December 30, 2013 at 1:28PM     
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samcdaniel
Oh, and one other thing. Since you don't really have any wall space for art, it would be great if the upper cabinets to the right of the wall ovens had glass doors and you put your prettiest things in them, maybe even painting the back of the cabinet a fun color (or the same idea but more easily changed, add a pop of color/pattern with removable wallpaper on the inside back of the cabinets).
December 30, 2013 at 1:29PM     
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Interesting idea. Opposite the peninsula is a small morning room and there will be a built in there....sort of a 'hutch' concept where I can put out my "pretty things" and have storage for the good china and other things I never use! : )
December 30, 2013 at 1:35PM     
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samcdaniel
And just because I am shopping for a house and can't wait to re-do another kitchen, and am vicariously enjoying yours I have one more idea that might or might not be relevant to you. I too am a serious cook, with a cookbook collection numbering in the hundreds. They will never all fit in a kitchen, but I am always trying to find a way to get as many as I can in there. So in looking at alfredof's drawing, I see one more possibility. The two angled pantry cabinets flanking the opening to the kitchen might be really expensive to have built. You might be better served with regular pantry cabinets (again with pullouts) that are slightly narrower and then put floor to ceiling open shelving (cabinet width of 24 inches, but fairly shallow at 9 or 10 inches for cookbooks and/or platter/bowl display area.
December 30, 2013 at 1:36PM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
I like open shelving a lot. I have two areas now that really add personality to my kitchen. That corner cabinet is sorta why I was thinking about moving the wall ovens there so it would be a flat wall on the side....then put the pantry more or less across from the cooktop. There will probably be some open shelving next to the fridge at that opening as well. A small landing counter, then open shelving above and below. That's how I have the cookbooks I use the most now.
December 30, 2013 at 1:45PM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
Some more good input! I wanted to add that for the stair wall, you might want to think about the visual impact of the cabinetry. For instance, you don't have to have your entire pantry in one area. It might look the nicest to put the countertop in the middle, balancing it between cabinetry and ovens, if that will work for your purposes. Making it look a bit like a hutch in the middle would be nice by pulling that section out slightly and even changing the finish, since you are going for a farmhouse look. I wish I could find a photo of a kitchen I have in mind which belonged to some NYC restauranteurs in their country house. I am going to keep looking! Maybe instead of the screen door idea for the pantry you could use screen set into an open door.

I can't find a photo of exactly what I'm thinking so these will have to do ;-)
Menlo Park Ranch Addition/Remodel
Woodinville Retreat

I know these are more traditional than you are looking for:
Divine Kitchens LLC
Country French Estate

I happened to see this photo - quite similar to your kitchen
Gross Kitchen 3
December 30, 2013 at 3:00PM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
samcdaniel, is this what you had in mind?
December 30, 2013 at 3:06PM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
Sorry, didn't attach photo...
December 30, 2013 at 3:07PM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
This one shows the "hutch" pulled out a few inches.
December 30, 2013 at 3:14PM   
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samcdaniel
yes, exactly like that.
December 30, 2013 at 3:16PM     
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Interior Trends Remodel & Design
I would swap the sink and the cook top, that way you have the cook top and hood on its own wall which is a nice focal point and the sink isn't smack dab in the center of your entertainment area...
December 30, 2013 at 3:18PM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Kathryn I love the pic with the skinny bookshelf next to the ovens. Good idea Sam. I love little surprises like that. After looking at the other pics I also like the idea of putting the open counter on the stair wall in the middle. I've been studying these trying to imagine my life there, where I would put the dishes, etc.
December 30, 2013 at 4:59PM     
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Kathryn Peltier Design
I was going through my Pins, and I came up with these, in no particular order. Just thought different aspects of each might be of interest.
December 30, 2013 at 5:10PM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
Some more.
December 30, 2013 at 5:11PM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
And yet more (I'm on a roll...!)
December 30, 2013 at 5:12PM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
You'll be glad to know I'm done. ;-)
December 30, 2013 at 5:13PM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
You crack me up. I was thinking about storing dishes in lower cabinets like this. A lot easier to get to.
December 30, 2013 at 5:24PM     
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alfredof
Good morning ncclayteam, Happy New Year!! Ok back from the festivities, so I rendered my interpretation of your conversations regarding the stair wall area since my last renderings and this is what I came up with
January 2, 2014 at 8:37AM     
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Thank you so much! I really like the open book shelves and the ovens on that end. I have to think about whether I want the pantry at the end as you have it....or in the middle next to the ovens. Just not sure right now and it's really not something I have to decide at the moment. I'm still looking at this in terms of where I would store dishes, glasses, etc. This is so great! Thank you thank you thank you.
January 2, 2014 at 2:22PM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
One little tweak I would make if you keep the counter in the middle (which will look the nicest from the adjoining rooms): make the wall cabinets above the counter deeper than normal, somewhere between 15-18" deep rather than the standard 12". This will give you a softer and more custom look because the sides of the oven and pantry cabinets won't be as visible. You can either order cabinets this way OR furr out a standard depth cabinet and order a finished bottom to cover the extended depth. This might also be a location for some small detail piece: a cubbyhole shelf or drawers, cup rail, brackets at the corner, etc. Great visual, alfredof!
January 2, 2014 at 3:57PM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
I always prefer staggered cabinets. Makes it much more interesting. The challenge I'm having is where to put dishes. Since upper cabinets seem to be a premium, I've considered using the lower cabinets instead, but not sure. My current cabinet is 36" wide and standard depth and I need every inch. In the original plan, where those cabinets were adjacent to the sink, I could see that being a good spot. If that becomes the case, I would have to stagger either the pantry or the wall with the ovens. I have pics in my idea books....do you know if there is a way to attach those here?
January 2, 2014 at 4:26PM   
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alfredof
Here is a photo realistic rendering, not 100% yet but just to give you an idea, this works great when you are ready to pic colors, tile patterns, accent lighting (great for picking out dark spots), etc. I split the door to the pantry into two doors that way its roomy to open in the tight space and also a person can walk by with the doors open 90 degrees, on the 2nd drawing I have moved the upper cabinet from the 12” that is now to 18” so you can see the difference, as for the dishes, etc. what size, shape and how many? What you have in your ideas picture its standard dish storage in the galleys of the boats and airplanes custom interiors I use to build, I can lay that out and show how they will fit in the drawers just like they look in the picture. Kathryn, I reached out to via your houzz messaging don’t know if you received it or not
January 2, 2014 at 5:55PM     
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Alfredof - this program you use is so cool. It's hard to say "how many" of anything really. But I use it all and that 36" cabinet is full. And that's just dishes. I'm really have second thoughts about whether this kitchen is going to be big enough. You have a tall cabinet next to the fridge and I had planned on that being a wine rack on the top and open book shelves on the bottom, but with that corner shelf you have in there, I'm thinking that tall cabinet may stay for more storage. Can you tell me the dimensions of that?
January 2, 2014 at 6:52PM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
Yes, I got your message and responded alfredof! I looked for you on LinkedIn but couldn't find you. My LinkedIn is just under my name.
January 2, 2014 at 7:09PM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
ncclayteam, is there a reason that you want a counter on the opposite side? Really, I doubt that it will get used much other than maybe for a landing space for the ovens. Maybe an integrated cart next to the ovens could take care of that and the rest become storage.
January 2, 2014 at 7:11PM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
Go to your Ideabook, open the single photo in it's own page, highlight the URL and then copy and paste to this discussion. You can paste any photo from Houzz that way (just open it in another tab).
January 2, 2014 at 7:14PM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
One more consideration: I know that you have a concern about seeing dirty dishes from the family room, but making your peninsula all one level gives you MUCH more useable space. This doesn't address the storage issue but if you made the stair wall all storage, it would kind of replace that countertop.
January 2, 2014 at 7:16PM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
One more question: what is below the kitchen on the plan drawing? Is there any chance that you could steal a couple of feet there for the kitchen?
January 2, 2014 at 7:26PM   
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Mean Design
Just looking at all of alfredof's renderings... be careful about walkways and cabinets/appliances that have doors/drawers that open. Think about how the space will be used, the traffic, and the access to the cabinet/appliance. If the cabinet/appliance door/drawer is opened rarely, and it opens into a walkway, than it may not be a big deal. Also, check the specs on any corner base cabinet that you will put right next to the refrig; it may advise against that configuration due to the refrig's door swing (you may just need a filler). And the entry into the kitchen with the tall angled cabinets looks a little tight; does the clearance meet minimum standard?
January 3, 2014 at 5:27AM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Kathryn - Making the peninsula one level, doesn't really accomplish the same thing as having counter space on the stair wall. IMO. At this stage of the game, I think I need to get this to a kitchen company and get a handle on measurements...then compare them to what I have now. It doesn't look like enough space, but I may be wrong. The room "below" the kitchen is the dining room and there really isn't any room to spare in there.

Mean - I totally understand what you're saying. My original thought for the space next to the fridge was a wine cubby, a small landing counter, then either a small base cabinet or open shelving below that.
January 3, 2014 at 6:07AM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Kathryn - what would you think about simply squaring off those two angled areas by the fridge and the wall ovens? I was looking at the space next to the fridge and thinking if it were simply squared off, I could have a small landing counter with skinny upper and lower cabinets there. On the side of that (the view you would have walking in from that hall) would be the wine cubby like I have now. If that would work, I could use that for a partial pantry. Then I could make the pantry that is currently 4 ft on the stair wall, smaller....which would give me a bit more upper cabinet on that side. THEN, do the same thing on the wall next to wall ovens. Just square that off and leave the side as open shelving for cook books and such. This is why I need to get it to a kitchen place so I can see actual dimensions of the cabinets. What Alfredof has done is great and given me a much better concept so I can talk about options with the cabinet people.
January 3, 2014 at 7:24AM   
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alfredof
All the lower cabinets as rendered are 24” deep with the upper cabinets at 12”. Since you are looking for maximum storage I’ve rendered the column cabinet to the depth of the refrig. at 27’ but made the door open as rendered to give easy access to the items stored there, the walkway between the 2 angle cabinets is 34”, they need to be angled otherwise you wouldn’t have the 34” walkway. I’m also showing the drawer for the angle cabinet by the refrig open so you can see how it will clear the refrig, having drawers makes it convenient to get at stuff but you do loose storage space, that could be changed to double doors, it would give you a huge space that you could crawl into :-) If you can give me an email I can reach you at, I will send you jpeg files that you can print so you can take them to your kitchen cabinet makers
January 3, 2014 at 10:05AM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Thanks Alfredof. Since the opening is only 34", I was thinking if you cut the angle off of that cabinet by the fridge, it would give more breathing room and open that up for some shallow shelves on the side. My thought too for this, since if you do that, it would make the cabinet skinnier, it would be ideal for a multi level turntable system too. Should I leave my email here, or is there a messaging sort of system with Houzz like there is with Facebook?
January 3, 2014 at 10:13AM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
If you square off the corners, you will actually lose space because they would have to be cut back to the dimension of the flat side on the front in order to keep the clearance. Does that make sense? They could open from the side, but I'm not really sure what that gains you.

I know that making your peninsula area all one level does not exactly replicate the counter on the other side, but adding several more lineal feet of counter in that area probably almost makes it up, square footage wise. I guess my point is that if you need more storage space, that might be the trade-off, even if you just make the stairwall counter smaller. Even if it is just additional depth, it is staging space. How do you see yourself using the counter against the stairwall?

OK, another question: what is below the coat/powder room area? I am wondering if this area could be somehow flipped with the kitchen (making a butler's pantry where the refrigerator is now). Just thought it might be worth some exploration.
January 3, 2014 at 10:49AM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Hey Kathryn....actually, what I was thinking but chopping that angle off is that it would create the cabinet AND a flat wall for something interesting. Go back and look at the pictures I loaded from my kitchen and you'll see the wine rack. That was what I was thinking. Plus, I think the multi level turn table idea would maximize the narrow cabinet space and make it easier to get to things. This picture was my original inspiration for the pantry because of the turn table.
January 3, 2014 at 10:57AM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
OK, I went back and looked at your present kitchen. So, if I understand correctly, you would do a narrow cabinet facing into the kitchen and then a side-facing wine rack? The wine rack would be narrower than the depth of the cabinet side (which it backs up to) so that essentially you are creating the "angle", it just is empty space. Do I have this correct? If that is the case, you could also angle off the corner with a piece of cabinet molding, too. Is your goal to get something interesting to look at upon entering the kitchen, rather than just the side of a cabinet?
Yes, you could use a turntable pantry in one of the corners. You will need to check the diameter, though, to make sure it will work (or, in the case of the ovens, they could be moved down)
January 3, 2014 at 12:49PM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
I think I agree...LOL. What I don't know if how wide that cabinet would actually be if I squared it off. But the concept is correct...the narrow cabinet would face into the kitchen. The side of it would be a wine rack or something so it's not just blank.
January 3, 2014 at 12:56PM   
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Kathryn Peltier Design
It would depend upon the width of the cabinet it backs up to. In other words, it depends upon how much space you have from the side of the adjacent cabinet to the doorway - it determines the triangle, i.e. the clearance.
January 3, 2014 at 12:58PM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
alfredof - I have a meeting on Thursday to start talking about the kitchen. Could you possibly email those drawings you did for me? My email is ncclayteam@gmail.com. Thanks so much!
January 7, 2014 at 1:35PM   
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alfredof
just flying back from an out of town trip, I'll email you tonight
January 7, 2014 at 1:59PM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Wonderful....I sent you a couple of emails, but one came back.
January 7, 2014 at 2:12PM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Cute calmsea......but I think I'll pass. I'd feel like the great wizard of oz!
January 7, 2014 at 2:50PM     
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Kathryn Peltier Design
"Toto, I don't think we're in the kitchen any more"... :-)
January 7, 2014 at 4:03PM     
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
There's no place like houzz, there's no place like houzz......
January 7, 2014 at 4:25PM     
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alfredof
ok corner cabinet with wine rack, bottels laying on its side, correct?
January 8, 2014 at 8:48AM   
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The Clay Team - Looking Glass Realty
Not sure which corner you mean. My thought was next to the fridge....and yes, they would lay on their sides. I'll be out for the afternoon and unavailable, but I'll check back in later. Thanks
January 8, 2014 at 8:52AM   
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alfredof
yes by th refrig, just sent you an email
January 8, 2014 at 11:42AM   
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alfredof
ok here is a start of what I'm interpreting, I’m thinking the drawers with full extension guides will give you easily accessible storage where you can fully use the inside space
January 9, 2014 at 2:42AM     
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Kathryn Peltier Design
Geez, Alfredo: do you sleep? LOL. Looks good.
January 9, 2014 at 5:57AM   
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alfredof
Thank you Kathryn, as for sleep, that’s the beauty of not being in any type of schedule for having to wake up in the morning, I can keep going when the creative juices are flowing and then just go to sleep afterwards :-)
January 9, 2014 at 10:42AM   
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