Venting for a gas cooktop
mccdisco
March 12, 2014
We am thinking of changing out my downdraft electric cook top for gas. Our kitchen and dinning room combination is 23'x19', 12' vaulted ceiling, ceiling fan in the dinning room, 2 large windows and a door to the backyard. With a room that large and the natural ventilation plus the fan, do we need to install a hood or find a downdraft gas cook top? We have found that downdrafts with are gas basically useless. All the do is suck the flame from under the cookware.
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PRO
Ironwood Builders
Look for a pop up down draft, like the Viking VIPR162SS, it rises almost 8" above the counter top. Natural ventilation plus a ceiling fan do not rid the home of excessive heat, odors, gases or steam. Exhaust fans are code required for residential kitchens just like bathroom and laundry exhaust fans and for the same reasons....excessive humidity in a home causes mold to proliferate and mold can cause life threatening conditions. Do it.
2 Likes    Bookmark   Thanked by mccdisco    March 12, 2014 at 4:55PM
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PRO
Dytecture
A downdraft is still better than just relying on the ceiling fan only.
1 Like    Bookmark   Thanked by mccdisco    March 12, 2014 at 4:56PM
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mccdisco
Thanks for the info. i understand about the exhaust fans...not much humidity in Vegas though....thanks again!
    Bookmark   March 12, 2014 at 6:52PM
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PRO
Ironwood Builders
In Las Vegas you close up all the windows and doors in the summer and turn on the AC. When you put a pot of water on the stove to boil for pasta, the steam goes into the air...what happens to that moisture? Sorry, you asked for advice and two professionals have given you an answer you don't like....why ask? An exhaust system is required by law to vent your cooking gases.
1 Like    Bookmark   March 12, 2014 at 7:39PM
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Fred S
Ironwood, do you really want to go through this again? Mccdisco, there are other ways to ventilate a house than with an exhaust fan, even where ironwood lives. Bathrooms don't even require an exhaust fan in most of the country. There is still free will to use a window if you don't live in California. There are none of these codes that ironwood mention in Vegas. https://www.lasvegasnevada.gov/files/2009_International_Building_Code_(IBC).pdf

1203.4.1.4 Bathrooms, water closets, laundry rooms and similar rooms in R occupancies. Bathrooms, water closet compartments, laundry rooms and similar rooms in R occupancies, when provided with natural ventilation by means of openable exterior openings, shall be provided with a minimum ventilation area of 1.5 square feet (0.14 m2). 1203.4.1.5 Toilet rooms. Toilet rooms, when provided with natural ventilation by means of openable exterior openings, shall be provided with a minimum ventilation area of 3 square feet (0.28 m2), or a vertical duct not less than 100 square inches (64 516 mm2) in area for the first water closet plus 50 square inches (32 258 mm2) of additional area for each additional water closet.

1203.6.4 Group R Occupancies. In Group R Occupancies, in lieu of required exterior openings for natural ventilation, a mechanically operated ventilation system may be provided. Such system shall be capable of providing two air changes per hour in guest rooms, dormitories, habitable rooms and in public corridors with a minimum of 15 cubic feet per minute (7 L/s) of outside air per occupant during such time as the building is occupied. In lieu of required exterior openings for natural ventilation in bathrooms containing a bathtub, shower or combination thereof, laundry rooms, and similar rooms, a mechanically operated ventilation system capable of providing a minimum of five air changes per hour shall be provided. Such systems shall be connected directly to the outside, and the point of discharge shall be at least 3 feet (914 mm) from any opening that allows air entry into occupied portions of the building. Bathrooms that contain only a water closet, lavatory or combination thereof and similar rooms may be ventilated with an approved mechanical re-circulating fan or similar device designed to remove odors from the air.
https://www.lasvegasnevada.gov/files/2009_International_Residential_Code_(IRC).pdf
IRC
R303.3 Bathrooms.
Bathrooms, water closet compartments and other similar rooms shall be provided with aggregate glazing area in windows of not less than 3 square feet (0.3 m2), one-half of which must be openable.

Exception: The glazed areas shall not be required where artificial light and a local exhaust system are provided. The minimum local exhaust rates shall be determined in accordance with Section M1507. Exhaust air from the space shall be exhausted directly to the outdoors.
http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2012/icod_irc_2012_3_par083.htm
    Bookmark   Thanked by mccdisco    March 12, 2014 at 8:53PM
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Fred S
SECTION M1503 RANGE HOODS
M1503.1 General.
Range hoods shall discharge to the outdoors through a single-wall duct. The duct serving the hood shall have a smooth interior surface, shall be air tight, shall be equipped with a back-draft damper, and shall be independent of all other exhaust systems. Ducts serving range hoods shall not terminate in an attic or crawl space or areas inside the building.

Exception: Where installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions, and where mechanical or natural ventilation is otherwise provided, listed and labeled ductless range hoods shall not be required to discharge to the outdoors.

M1503.3 Kitchen exhaust rates.
Where domestic kitchen cooking appliances are equipped with ducted range hoods or down-draft exhaust systems, the fans shall be sized in accordance with
Section M1507.4.
M1503.4 Makeup air required.
Exhaust hood systems capable of exhausting in excess of 400 cubic feet per minute (0.19 m3/s) shall be provided with makeup air at a rate approximately equal to the exhaust air rate. Such makeup air systems shall be equipped with a means of closure and shall be automatically controlled to start and operate simultaneously with the exhaust system.

Never once does the code say that a kitchen range SHALL HAVE an exhaust hood.
    Bookmark   March 12, 2014 at 9:12PM
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Fred S
http://m.subzero-wolf.com/oven/dual-fuel/30-inch-dual-fuel-range/specifications-downloads

Wolf design guide

ALL dual fuel ranges
Without ventilation hood, 36" (914) minimum clearance countertop to combustible materials, 44" (118) for charbroiler

ALL Gas ranges
Without ventilation hood, 42" (1067) minimum clearance countertop to combustible materials, charbroiler and GR488 require non-combustible materials.
    Bookmark   March 12, 2014 at 9:32PM
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Fred S
Neither kitchens or ranges are mentioned by name in the entire "required ventilation" section.
http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2012/icod_irc_2012_3_sec003.htm?bu2=undefined
    Bookmark   March 12, 2014 at 10:06PM
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PRO
GN Builders L.L.C
Fred, I don't know what you do for a living, but you sure are a text book wiz. Ironwood is right, most places will not issue certificate of occupancy without having a hood installed. It is not based on the code book or what ever stove manufacturer suggests.
If the weather outside in the single digits, people will not keep the window open while cooking pasta of frying sausage. If they will, not only the smoke will go out the window (slim chance in that) but your hard earned money will for sure when you're cooking every day. Same goes in the summer especially in Las Vegas when temp hit 100+ on any summer day with stove going, nobody wants to keep the window open.
Each town is different and it is not based on the code book, building department or Municipality has the jurisdiction to change the rule.

With that said, I don't know anyone in the right mind not having exhaust fan installed over the stove. I been in this business almost 30 years, I have never seen a kitchen without a fan, whether being installed in the wall (older homes), microwave fan, hood vent, or even recirculating fan.
We all know that range hoods help keep a kitchen looking nice and fresh, they help to prevent cabinets and walls becoming coated with grease etc. Face it, code or no code, it is necessary to keep the kitchen and indoor environment healthy and free of all that grease, smoke, steam, and all kinds of other cooking pollutants.
So if you have a window located 3-6 feet from the stove it will not remove all that grease and all the smoke and build-up of all of these pollutants. if you have it open, it will only blow around the house, it will stay in the air and one way or another doesn't have a healthy effect on adults and children... and that is the reason why most towns will not issue certificate of occupancy.
I will add one more thing... If someone is giving someone a good advise based on theirs experience, or just based on common sense, or even for the Homeowner sake and well being, I don't know why you always try to knock it down and bring the Code book into this. We just had the same thing with the glass, should it be safety or not a week ago.

Before you give advise on the code, you should learn how the code is being interpreted. The exceptions that you see in the code book, they just say that you can get away with it, that you will still comply to a minimum. In other word, if you have a room with no window, you need a fan- That is the code. exception: If you have a window in that room, you don't need a fan as long as you keep it open and there is air circulation. Which will not get nothing out 90% of the time, just move the air around the room.
Same as Code says you can have 2x10 span almost 16'... sure you can, it will not break and it will support the 40LB load, but when you load the room, you will have a bouncy floor and being a builder and building custom homes, you should know this better then anyone.
You should also know if you built a house just to meet the code minimum, you will have a pretty s*^tty house, period. How many custom homes you built without a hood fan? Probably none.
So please, do yourself and everyone a favor and cut people some slack when they try to help someone make something to function better and for theirs own good based on our professional experience.
1 Like    Bookmark   March 12, 2014 at 11:11PM
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kmkane
Fred, you're nuts. Ironwood and GN Builders are absolutely correct. @mccdisco, you need to vent your cooktop and it needs to be vented well. Moisture, oils, smells, etc need to get out of your home, and fast. A ceiling fan will just swirl them around. A window won't do a thing. @mccdisco, either redesign your kitchen so you can place a good quality. less expensive hood on an outdoor wall, or be prepared to spend more money on a downdraft. Or see if an inspector will sign you off on something less, then live in an oily, smelly house. Think of that stuff all over your walls, in the fabric of your furniture, permeating the wood of your cabinets/molding, etc.
3 Likes    Bookmark   March 12, 2014 at 11:23PM
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Fred S
GN, I have been in the business 40 years, so don't try to tell me your experience. Show me the laws you speak of or admit you are as big a fool as you sound. Las Vegas interpretations are just as I explained. You are just showing your lack of knowledge claiming otherwise. Highly unprofessional.
    Bookmark   March 12, 2014 at 11:27PM
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Fred S
kmkane, all that comes directly from the Las Vegas govt. web site. Go tell them you know more than they do.
    Bookmark   March 12, 2014 at 11:30PM
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GN Builders L.L.C
I don't know Fred, I met a few who been in the business as long as you have and they still didn't learn anything.
I am not worried about my knowledge on the code, having Inspector's license certification, and being a member of ICC I know my way around code book better then you do and have them all here.
We are not here to discuss or re-write the code. We are here to help each other and others to achieve theirs goal, share ideas, learn from others, etc.
People here are smart and educated and 99% will install a hood fan above the stove even the code dictates otherwise.
As being unprofessional goes, I won't even touch this issue, I'm sure everyone can draw theirs own conclusion who is and who is not.

Good luck
5 Likes    Bookmark   March 12, 2014 at 11:45PM
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Fred S
Telling people BS and trying to tell them it is code is definitely NOT helping them. They are smart enough to make that decision on their own. Just because you dont agree with Vegas,does not make the Las Vegas code change.
    Bookmark   March 12, 2014 at 11:53PM
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kmkane
Fred, I don't care what Vegas or any other city code says. Fry garlic or bacon or sausage, or boil sauerkraut or venison guts or WHATEVER for months or years on end without venting it and your house, sofa, mattress, wall, etc are gonna STINK! They are going to be covered with a film. C'mon buddy, this isn't about government interference, it's about common sense.
    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 12:31AM
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Fred S
No, this is about Ironwood badgering the OP and telling them they have to do it because it is the law when, in fact, it is not.

Ironwood Builders; "In Las Vegas you close up all the windows and doors in the summer and turn on the AC. When you put a pot of water on the stove to boil for pasta, the steam goes into the air...what happens to that moisture? Sorry, you asked for advice and two professionals have given you an answer you don't like....why ask? An exhaust system is required by law to vent your cooking gases."

God forbid anyone has a different opinion, let alone the whole law making body of Las Vegas. Just because I post the facts, doesn't make it wrong. By the way, where did I give my opinion you seem to be so upset about?
1 Like    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 12:50AM
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Fred S
GN BUILDERS, you said;

"Each town is different and it is not based on the code book, building department or Municipality has the jurisdiction to change the rule."....." and that is the reason why most towns will not issue certificate of occupancy."

This is what your state of New Jersey has to say about it.

State of New Jersey
New Jersey’s Uniform Construction Code (UCC) adopts codes by regulation. The codes are administered by the Department of Community Affairs (DCA) Division of Codes & Standards. They are uniform state wide and local jurisdictions are not permitted to amend

State of New Jersey
Chris Christie, Governor
Department of Community Affairs Richard E. Constable III, Commissioner June, 2012

There is another more serious concern regarding code enforcement. Occasionally an official will require things that are clearly in excess of what the code says. Even if it is a "better” or "safer" way, unless there is a requirement in the code, you may not insist that something be done. Let's look at it logically. Forgetting code enforcement for a moment, if for personal gain you demanded that someone do something or suffer the consequences, i.e.; "give me your milk money, and I'll make sure not to punch you in the nose,” that would be extortion. In the grown up world, that's a criminal offense.


If a code official, or any government agent, requires someone to do something that is more than the law requires, that can be interpreted as a violation of the U.S. Civil Rights Act of 1960. The Act (42 U.S.C. 1974) reinforces the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution (Bill of Rights) that protects from unlawful taking of private property. The courts have ruled that withholding permission to occupy property that complies with the law (code) is a civil rights violation. Triple damages may be awarded."

Of course, New Jersey code is the same as I posted above. Surprise, surprise!! They do not require these things either.

I think I have proven my point as to why people asking questions on here deserve to know what the actual code is. People like you seem to think they know more than they really do.

Now, tell me again how well you know the codes.
    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 2:33AM
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GN Builders L.L.C
Fred, I said I know the Building codes I never said I know every statue about civil rights, and U.S. Civil Rights Act of 1960. The Act (42 U.S.C. 1974) is not part of IRC or IBC code book material and I'm not here to make a federal case out $39 Hood fan which plumbing inspector want to see being installed... your examples are not going to stop me making a suggestion to a Customer to do something that will benefit them in the long run, like a fan or changing regular glass to tempered glass if a window seat is being installed under it... but I know for a fact that they do appreciate all the suggestions they can get, being from a code book or simply from experience.

I am a professional Builder and this is my bread and butter, and my main concern is to look out after my customers best interest at the same time provide them with a better and safer structure.
I don't make money by wasting my time making Federal cases out of nothing, so I can get away without using a hood fan or see which part of the code I can avoid. I don't need a State or Federal law to tell me anything... I stick to common sense.

Now since you been doing this for 40 years, do you actually believe that one window located 2-6' away from the stove, is a better source of ventilation vs. a hood fan which is mounted directly above cooking surface?
Have you seen a kitchen without one? Or better yet did you ever build a house during your 40 years in business without a hood fan? Or better yet, suggest your customer that you don't need one, the window over the sink is enough?
    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 6:48AM
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mccdisco
@ironwood...I did thank you and and Dytecture for the information. I did not say I did not like the answer. Didn't mean to get ya'll worked up over a simple question. Just for the record...currently we have an electric Jennair 43inch module cook top with a down draft. The only time the vent is used is when the grill or griddle is turned on and that is only because it comes on automatically. We have been using this for 9 years now. It is true that when you cook, your home will smell whether you use a vent or not. I have lived in apartments in California where the stove vents are not venting to the outside. They just blow it out the top of the vent back into the room.

There is actually only three answers to the question..."Yes you need and exhaust vent", "No you don't need an exhaust vent" or "It's best to check with your local building codes".

Thank you all for the information...
2 Likes    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 7:22AM
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Fred S
@ GN, you still have not shown me this non-existent code you keep claiming to know so much about. We know it isn't where you live or in Vegas. So far, that is two strikes for you, and a zero correct. It doesn't bode well for your knowledge of anything. Before you challenge me again, you had better check your facts. Your "inspector's license" is only of the rent-a-cop variety. When they give you the answers to the test, and you buy the licence, you may as well get it out of a gumball machine. Been there, done that. Member of ICC, wow, that takes all of 2 minutes. Until you start coming up with actual code reference and laws to back up your statements, I will consider that you don't even own a code book. You sure don't know it well if you think the inspector can make up their own codes.
    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 8:38AM
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GN Builders L.L.C
Regardless of what the building code is... you need an exhaust fan no matter how you wiggle this issue and that is one of the reasons why 99.9% of all houses have exhaust fans installed, even in the bathrooms when having a window or not.

Let me explain to you in a more technical term at the same time put it in a simple term to make sense of it all.
The reason building code exempts hood fans when having a window, because they want air movement in the room and they don't want smoke accumulation in the room while cooking is in process. Same as they allow not having a fan in the bathroom if there is a window, etc Fan or no fan with window present or not, most the moisture will remain in your bathroom and be all over the place and get into everything.
Now on a more technical terms. Grease laden air which rises
from hot cooking fat, extracts the grease
particles into filters to contain it and at the same time pass the cleansed air into
the exhaust system, or when dealing with re-circulating fans, it blows clean air back into the room.
The main goal of the filter is to trap
that grease, which is first released when it leaves your frying pan. The filter must be changed on regular bases because the more grease trapped the less efficient the fan is and that is being directly over the stove.
With that said, the one of the main reasons why every household should have a filter is because when cooking is in processes, all the particles which come from smoke, grease, vapors, etc they all contain aerosols of water vapor which are mixed with evaporated fat or oil. The vapors are carried from cooking surface by the moving air being drawn into the exhaust hood. Since each particle is small, they're much heavier than the air
molecules which surrounding it and it is the proven fact that the inertial force of the grease aerosol is much greater than air molecules, therefore by not placing a hood fan right above cooking surface, and using window ventilation, most of that aerosol will not make it out, and it will be all over your house and it will land on everything in its path.
You might not notice the build up at first because the lighter grease particles will remain in the air stream and some might escape to the outside with moving air, but heaviest aerosols will start the build up on all the surfaces which trap them, rugs, couches, general surfaces, and anything perpendicular to the air flow.

I hope that explains it all and I hope now you can see that Ironwood builder gave you a very good advise.

I will also clear something else up. People don't come here seeking Building code advise. Most of the people who come here to seek advise are Homeowners who rely on professional or any constructive advise from another homeowner.
Many professional contractors will use "It's the Code" terminology, instead of using "Industry standard practice". When that happens a Homeowner will take that advise as a remedy to solve an issue and be above the minimum code requirements, when someone like Fred will make a federal issue out of it because its in the code book.

I will give you a perfect example using a different scenario. Take a footing for a typical deck.
The code allows to have an 8" footing at the bottom of the hole to support a post which is supporting the whole deck structure, and the rest of the hole can be filled with stone or dirt instead of filling the whole hole with concrete to the top and set the post on top using special anchors. It will save you 3 bags of concrete $4 per bag and a $10 anchor per hole.
Some building inspectors who have field experience can request to have the hole filled with concrete based on theirs experience which is the way to go but (technically you don't have to do that per code and you will win if you fight it).
But this is an industry standard for many deck builders, because we all know that when a post which is used to support a deck is buried in the ground, it could rot there if the lumber wasn't treated right, etc and it happens all the time, or anything else can go wrong under there, like bugs will eat it... and we find these issues all the time when decks fail.
So when giving someone advise here or any other blog and using the term "its the code" it could mean this is our "code" or being the right and best way of doing something and being industry standard practice for most Professional contractors, ignoring the fact that Building code dictates otherwise. Not to mention as contractors, we can sleep good at night and not worrying that deck could collapse 5 years later while party is going on.

Now if someone like Fred comes along and digs out the minimum standard for this practice, and 2 will follow his opinion on the issue not knowing any better, but just going by looking at the code number and say yeah, this guy knows what he is talking about... and something happens down the line, they will regret not taking the first advise coming from a guy who I'm sure like Ironwood does this day in and out.

Good luck
    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 9:07AM
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PRO
GN Builders L.L.C
Fred the question OP posted was not about if Code exist or not, not to mention I never said there was a code so I don't know what answer you waiting to hear from me.
She got a suggestion from a professional who used the term "code" in there. My suggestion would be the same any given day or night, you need a hood fan in the kitchen... Period.
If you love living in a grease pan, or having a house reek like a grease trap, that is your problem. But being a professional don't be advising anybody on codes when they not asking about the Code on this or any other issue.
When she asked about the code in the last post, I gave her an answer and explanation based on my opinion, and if you have a better explanation for her, go right ahead, I'm sure she will come to her own conclusion here. Now we're done here.

Good luck
    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 9:19AM
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Fred S
GN, Certainly, you have a hard time reading English. ironwood said it is "code required" AND "required by law" And you said, most places "will not issue certificate of occupancy without having a hood installed."
You did not just simply refer to it as 'code'
Quit trying to weasel your way out of your BS. You sound worse than a car salesman with your double talk.
    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 9:22AM
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Fred S
GN, Why do you continually try to deny saying things that are right there in black and white? Are you still under the impression that a "jedi mind trick" is a real thing?
If you actually knew English, or the code, you would not need to refer to your opinion as 'code'.
    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 9:28AM
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mfwolfe
OP shut this down 14 hours ago. Let it be. I am sure some innocent will ask the same question in a few weeks and you all can get het up then.
1 Like    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 9:35AM
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GN Builders L.L.C
Yes Freddie, I still say that... they will not issue a certificate of occupancy if there is no range hood. So here is the code you been asking for, now you can go and learn something and you can thank me later.

SECTION M1503
RANGE HOODS
M1503.1 General. Range hoods shall discharge to the outdoors
through a single-wall duct. The duct serving the hood
shall have a smooth interior surface, shall be air tight and shall
be equipped with a backdraft damper. Ducts serving range
hoods shall not terminate in an attic or crawl space or areas
inside the building.
Exception: Where installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s
installation instructions, and where mechanical or
natural ventilation is otherwise provided, listed and labeled
ductless range hoods shall not be required to discharge to
the outdoors.

The only exception to the rule is, that if you have other means of ventilation, you can use a ductless range hood which is not required venting to the outside.
    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 12:16PM
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Fred S
ROFL LOL ROFL LOL It never says "a range hood SHALL BE USED"
I thought you said you knew how to read a code book. You sure are having trouble deciding what the code book says for someone who claims to know it so well. Here is one for you;

R1001.1 General,
Masonry fireplaces shall be constructed in accordance with this section and the applicable provisions of Chapters 3 and 4

According to you, I now must have a masonry fireplace in each room of the house!

Or this one;
R1003.9 Termination.
Chimneys shall extend at least 2 feet (610 mm) higher than any portion of a building within 10 feet (3048 mm), but shall not be less than 3 feet (914 mm) above the highest point where the chimney passes through the roof.

Please tell me where I have to put my chimney! Should it go over the bathtub, or shower? Clearly, I need to put it somewhere. They mentioned it in the code book, so you must have it?

Still confident you know anything about the code book? You can't even make up your mind whether a HOOD is required or not.

You say, "The only exception to the rule is, that if you have other means of ventilation, you can use a ductless range hood which is not required venting to the outside."

So, now you are telling me that if someone uses a downdraft exhaust, they still must put in an overhead range hood, but it can be recirculated.
WHAT A JOKE THIS CONVERSATION IS BECOMING!
    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 2:29PM
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PRO
GN Builders L.L.C
Let me clear this up for you, just because I find this amusing watching you try and save your face.
Now Freddie if someone uses a downdraft exhaust, why would they need an overhead range hood? If they could have an overhead vent hood, they wouldn't need a downdraft vent would they now? Get yourself a book Construction for Dummies 101 they put everything into a more simple language for people like yourself.

But since you want to learn, I will explain, after all is why we're here...

When you have a downdraft vent, the concept is the same, it should be vented to the outside and definitely not into the basement... But if there is no basement, then you must do the following:
Ducts for domestic kitchen cooking appliances
equipped with down-draft exhaust systems shall be permitted
to be constructed of schedule 40 PVC pipe and fittings
provided that the installation complies with all of the following:
1. The duct is installed under a concrete slab poured on
grade; and
2. The underfloor trench in which the duct is installed is
completely back filled with sand or gravel; and
3. The PVC duct extends not more than 1 inch (25 mm)
above the indoor concrete floor surface; and
4. The PVC duct extends not more than 1 inch (25 mm)
above grade outside of the building; and
5. The PVC ducts are solvent cemented.

Now if they don't need a vent at all, why would they have this here and why would anyone in the right mind would go through all that when you simply can open the window.

Oh Freddie and by the way if you look up the requirements for the dryer which is: M1502.1 General. Clothes dryers shall be exhausted in accordance
with the manufacturer’s instructions.
M1502.2 Independent exhaust systems. Dryer exhaust systems
shall be independent of all other systems and shall convey
the moisture to the outdoors.
Exception: This section shall not apply to listed and labeled
condensing (ductless) clothes dryers.

They also forgot to mention that the dryer vent is required, but the way you interpreting the code, if they don't spell it out for you, you don't need to have it... ? Then again, who needs a dryer vent, just open the window and let the breeze take care of all the dust.

If the creators of code book need to spell everything out for people like you, this book will have a million pages, so they figured people in the industry get the general idea and if they have it in the book, it means it should be there and this is how it should be done.

"Please tell me where I have to up my chimney! Should it go over the bathtub, or shower? Clearly, I need to put it somewhere. They mentioned it in the code book, so you must have it?"
If this wasn't an open blog, I would tell you where you can put the chimney up and it wouldn't be over a tub or shower my Friend...LOL

Ohh and by the way, there is something to comply with when doing alterations, or doing work like adding a window seats and taking out drop ceilings, etc... I knew I was right when we had that window discussion, its just been so long since I had to peek into a code book, so forgive me for being a bit rusty. That code requirement does not fall under IRC or IBC codes because this is fall under alteration and not new construction... NJ as many other states I'm sure adopted a rehab code, designed specially for that, because improper alteration work could create a safety hazards when adding something that wasn't there before, and now since the space or what ever is being altered it could become a hazardous location and you have to follow specific requirements following the sub-code or requirement which municipality adopted.

Now as the Joke conversation goes... the joke is on you Freddy I hope you learning something.
    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 3:34PM
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Charles Ross Homes
Hi,

Irrespective of whether your local code requires a vent hood, I recommend installing one. When used in conjunction with a gas range, the hood's key function is to maintain air quality by eliminating products of combustion, odors, and moisture. Depending on the vent hood's capacity, you may also need to install a fresh-air make-up system. Check with a local mechanical contractor in your area before making any purchases.

Good luck.
5 Likes    Bookmark   Thanked by mccdisco    March 13, 2014 at 3:37PM
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GN Builders L.L.C
CRH,

I couldn't agree more with you and I'm sure that is a requirement nation wide. I just did complete home remodeling on a house built in 1900's and it had a hood.
As make up system goes, it is in the code since I have it open here it is:
M1503.4 Makeup air required. Exhaust hood systems capable
of exhausting in excess of 400 cubic feet per minute (0.19
m3/s) shall be provided with makeup air at a rate approximately
equal to the exhaust air rate. Such makeup air systems shall be
equipped with a means of closure and shall be automatically
controlled to start and operate simultaneously with the exhaust
system.
    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 3:51PM
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Fred S
GN, let me put it in terms you can understand. SIMON DIDN'T SAY.
Show me where the code says you have to have a dryer.

IF you don't have a dryer, you don't need a dryer vent. If you don't have a range hood, you don't need to exhaust it either.

The code really doesn't contradict itself like you want to believe. It doesn't say you must have a range hood no matter what unless you have a down draft. If that is what it meant, it would say that. IT DOES NOT.
I posted the whole code you are trying to twist into something it doesn't say on my second post. Clearly, you are not even reading, or incapable of comprehending the words.

Now you want to claim there is another code book that applies that you just couldn't remember on the last conversation? What a Hail Mary! I can assure you that I am more familiar with it than you. I have already shown you the law that states you cannot require any more for a rehab or new than what is in the code for new construction. If it is not required for new construction, it is not required for old. The codes you are referring to explain how to meet the new codes 'half way' on old work, not make them more stringent than current new codes.

You are so dumb that you don't know you are always wrong. Go back to the front of your code books and learn what the use of the word "SHALL" means and what it means if it is NOT used.
Clearly English is not your language. Notice that Ross Homes never agreed with your interpretations of the code. He in fact said irrespective of the fact that it doesn't require them. He is not stupid enough to believe your interpretations either.

Repeatedly saying that things are in the code when they are not, does not make it true. The code is written as a legally binding document. You bet your *ss it is written to mean EXACTLY what it says. Otherwise, it would be as worthless as you are in this conversation.
    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 4:58PM
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mccdisco
Thank you Charles Ross Homes for your input and answering my question. GN and Fred, if you would like to continue this conversation, I would appreciate it if you not continue it on my "page".
5 Likes    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 5:43PM
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GN Builders L.L.C
Sorry mccdisco...
    Bookmark   Thanked by mccdisco    March 13, 2014 at 5:57PM
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ReSquare Architecture + Construction
@mccdisco: FWIW, this happens any time someone asks about venting a stove on this forum. Many of us bought season tickets years ago to come watch. Sorry it happened to you, but remember this is just an internet forum. If you want the only practical answer that applies to you in your locality, ask the building department, or if you don't like their answer hire a locally licensed design/code professional to help you sort it out a way that works better for you but keeps the municipality happy.

With respect to code: what most don't realize is that it is the legally required bare minimum of what needs to be done to protect life, health, safety and welfare when building an inhabited space.

It's worth asking yourself in what other scenario would you only do the bare minimum required to protect your life, health, safety and welfare?
8 Likes    Bookmark   Thanked by mccdisco    March 14, 2014 at 10:04AM
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feeny
Your inability to pay attention to the OP's request to skedaddle off his thread pretty much says it all.
4 Likes    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 1:56PM
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GN Builders L.L.C
mccdisco, in my better days I also liked disco and was pretty good at it, so maybe that will prevent you from killing me, but I have to add one thing and after that, stick a fork in me, I am done with it.

Fred, the only person who promotes BS here, that is... You told Feeny, that you defending the truth but actually you defending BS. Same as you said it to me "Telling people BS and trying to tell them it is code is definitely NOT helping them"

How you figure I'm not helping them by giving them a much better advise, which happens to be above the code ( But lets forget the code for now which is BS in regard to this issue anyway) not to mention a much healthier advise.
How am I not helping by advising them to do something that will remove airborne grease, combustion products, fumes, smoke, odors, heat, and steam from the air by evacuation of the air and filtration.? I am starting to wonder what is your definition of helping someone is... but we not gonna touch that one.

Your giving advise according to one article of the code book which also doesn't say that you don't need a hood fan... I guess this code is BS to everyone else in the business not excluding every human being on the planet because only 99.9% of all the dwellings in this country have a Hood fan installed.

Now lets get back to the code book, since you the only one who is being helpful here, why don't you add the following, while defending the truth and if you want to be helpful, that if you don't have a hood fan, the vertical clearance above cooking top, free-standing or built-in range shall have a vertical clearance above the cooking top of not less than 30 inches to unprotected combustible material. Also why don't you add, that when the underside of such combustible material is protected with insulating mill-board at least 1/4" thick and covered with 0.021-inch-thick or a metal ventilating hood, and the distance shall not be less than 24 inches and that is THE CODE. Go look it up 906.1 Vertical Clearance above Cooking Top.

So, you can wrap your 10-25k cabinets in steel and make it look like a taco stand kitchen, if not, like the code dictates you can have a nice hood fan installed and get certificate of occupancy not only in NJ where you live as well.
So after all this is the code, and this or that is a requirement in the rest of the country who adopts the code.
Fred, are you still wondering who is being helpful here and who promotes the BS? Because I think everybody already figured that out long time ago.
One more thing Freddy, you right I don't have the education and I don't have good language skills, unfortunately for not having that opportunity... but you know something, that is meaningless to me, especially and that is thanks to you, that I have more common sense than you with all all the education you had, at least when it comes to a hood fan and safety glazing which is also in the Rehab code for NJ ... look it up.

Take care and good luck, because now we're definitely done, and I'm going disco dancing LOL
1 Like    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 4:43PM
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mccdisco
don't go puttin' on your dancing shoes just yet. I'm getting a couple of pictures...
2 Likes    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 4:57PM
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Fred S
So, you admit you were wrong again. How much do you want to bet that those clearances aren't already taken care of? There is already a cooktop there. Being helpful would be mentioning that the clearances may actually be more than that as I already posted waaay earlier.


Wolf design guide


ALL dual fuel ranges

Without ventilation hood, 36" (914) minimum clearance countertop to combustible materials, 44" (118) for charbroiler


ALL Gas ranges

Without ventilation hood, 42" (1067) minimum clearance countertop to combustible materials, charbroiler and GR488 require non-combustible materials.

So, thank you for telling me how helpful I am. Sorry that you are a little slow.
    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 4:57PM
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GN Builders L.L.C
What if you don't have a charbroiler or GR488 which don't require non-combustible materials?
Without ventilation hood, 42" (1067) minimum... do you know what 42 inches is? LOL

I'll stick with slow any time of day....

Take care
    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 5:09PM
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mccdisco
here are a couple of pictures. the cook top is in the island 9'x5' which is 3.5' across from the sink with a 6'H x4'W operational window and 7' below the ceiling. i have a huge a@@ ceiling fan above the dining room table which is 7' away. you can also see another window about 4'H x 6'W next to the back door. The total area is about 23' x 18' of pretty much open space. And that is a quartz countertop
1 Like    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 5:10PM
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Fred S
Yep, pretty sure you have the 42" covered :)
    Bookmark   Thanked by mccdisco    March 14, 2014 at 5:13PM
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GN Builders L.L.C
Beautiful mc, love the island and the whole set up.
    Bookmark   Thanked by mccdisco    March 14, 2014 at 5:15PM
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mccdisco
so...without starting another war...should I just try and Google my local codes or am I covered with the windows, door, ceiling fan and A/C?
    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 5:17PM
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GN Builders L.L.C
The important thing to catch all that heat and all the grease particles, so if you have downdraft it will help accomplish that.
The down part not having a fan, is when you have climate changes like the temp in single digits, or 100 degress and you having a party, the windows obviously be closed, and the overhead fan will just blow the air all over the house and everything be landing everywhere. Every time I have a family get together I have min of 20 people (almost every weekend), I would die without a fan, especially for the last 25 years I been having a New Year party in my house and I have min of 40-50 people, so during winter you cannot have windows open, so you can imagine when cooking is going full force what would be without a fan.
    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 5:25PM
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Fred S
It is best, now that you know the background lingo, to call your local building department directly. :)
1 Like    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 5:27PM
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mccdisco
Thanks GN! you should have seen it when we moved in...pretty butt ugly
    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 5:28PM
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kmkane
Code or no code, it's up to you to do the smart thing. Do you want to live with cooking oil/smoke/steam? Or not? You certainly have all the info you need.
1 Like    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 5:31PM
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mccdisco
Fred, i will probably do that...thanks!
GN, we're in Vegas so the single digits aren't much of a concern and we have the doors open usually until late May, then it starts getting toasty. That's the time during the summer we grill so we don't heat up the house.
    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 5:33PM
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mccdisco
Fred, I just checked out the links you provided. the first one, flush mount is interesting and will keep that on in mind. the second isn't our style...
    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 5:37PM
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GN Builders L.L.C
I have a custom kitchen with all the bells and whistles, here is a few pictures... I have a microwave with a vent going out, and still it has to be cleaned every time you cook because grease sticks to anything, and not only grease, even from vapors.
I love the wood, but my better half loves contemporary style, so my house is all, tile, stone, leather and Lacquer furniture.
Here is a portion of my kitchen, sorry is the top picture, college kids just had a feast here, you can imagine what counters look like. LOL
1 Like    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 5:38PM
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mccdisco
very nice!! i like the glass cabinets. looks like we have the same blinds. i would like to replace the window over the sink with the blinds encased in the window.
    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 5:44PM
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Fred S
Lol, I didn't figure it was your style, just the first one I found. The point is that you can just have a round tube sticking down to whatever height you want.
So, if your original question was just whether you need a hood by code, then what the Vegas code says is no, but that doesn't mean the inspector won't try to nitpick other things trying to make you have one. Thus the need to talk to them directly. We only put them in about 70% of any duplex/ rental units.
If you give us your priorities on this subject, it might be easier to help find a happy medium. Do you just not want one at all? Do you not want to spend so much on something you rarely use now? Do you just think they are ugly? Etc. Etc.
    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 5:54PM
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GN Builders L.L.C
Thanks! By the way what is with Vegas, I can never win there... LOL

I designed and build my house about 12 years ago. It's a California style home, probably something you see in Vegas allot or LA... the first floor is all open with 9 columns supporting the second floor (people making fun of it, saying it looks like a Vatican ) All vanities came from Spain and when I was on vacation in Italy I got all the tile there, a few friends of my do business there so they have containers going in and out... not to mention the $$$ rate was good at the time so it worked out nice.
My next house I started working on the plans now, I will definitely put some nice Cherry Cabinets probably Omega or Spazzi brand, they have some very interesting designs and styles.
    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 5:59PM
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mccdisco
we don't want downdraft if possible and don't want to break the line of sight in the kitchen so i'm leaning towards the flat one. i'll have to do more research on it. models, price, installation.
1 Like    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 6:00PM
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mccdisco
as one who works in a Vegas hotel...i thank you for your funds in helping us remodel our home! sounds beautiful and sounds like there are some advantages working in construction.
2 Likes    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 6:05PM
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GN Builders L.L.C
I saw someplace you wanted to change your electric cook top to gas... take a look at this one, It's an Induction cook top... we did my sisters in-law kitchen last year and she also wanted change to gas.. when she was looking for something she stopped at Miele showroom and fell in love with it, so she went for it and she loves it...

Here is the link: http://www.mieleusa.com/usa/cooking/cooktops/product.asp?cat=3&subcat=11&model=455&series=114&nav=&snav=&tnav=&oT=197&menu_id=16&active=Our%20Products&subm=Home%20Appliances&thirdL=Cooking%20Products&fourthL=Cooktops&fifthL=Products&
1 Like    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 6:29PM
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mccdisco
we thought about that also but if a magnet doesn't stick to your cookware you can't use it. we're not in the market to buy new cookware. I did look at the Miele website and saw this one. http://www.mieleusa.com/usa/cooking/cooktops/product.asp?cat=3&subcat=11&model=375&series=81&nav=&snav=&tnav=&oT=197&menu_id=16&active=Our%20Products&subm=Home%20Appliances&thirdL=Cooking%20Products&fourthL=Cooktops&fifthL=Products&
    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 6:38PM
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GN Builders L.L.C
Yes, I know, she had to change allot of cookware because it wouldn't light up.
I like this one you showed, you can do some serious cooking on 15-16k BTU burner, that is one thing I am missing in my house, because I love to cook and when you use larger pots, regular stove just don't cut it. If i didn't pay what I paid for my stove, I would have blown it up long time ago and change it to something like this in a heart beat.
If you get it, drop a note here, let me know how you like it.
    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 7:02PM
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Fred S
Given the lack of restrictions, you could actually put this in the ceiling. It is much smaller than the other one, but I think it only has one speed. http://m.grainger.com/mobile/product/BROAN-Fan-5C053
There are similar products that are just the grill and filter that you use with an external variable speed roof top motor. That would cut down the noise.
    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 7:59PM
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    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 8:03PM
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GN Builders L.L.C
I just got off the phone with a friend of my who does allot of construction in NY... have you ever heard about Italian manufacturer Futuro Futuro? He told me they have a ceiling flush mount hood fan/skylight combination. The only place as far as he knows that sells them its in Brooklyn NY. here is the info and a web site
8680 18th Ave Brooklyn, NY 11214
(800) 230-3565 http://futurofuturo.com

I just took a peek and they have some nice stuff but be ready to pay... Look under the Island hoods, there is a 38" skylight/ fan combination that might be perfect for you...I briefly looked around and they sure have some interesting models you not gonna find anywhere...

Good luck
    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 8:38PM
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okdokegal
I have heard of both Broan and Furturo and good things about both.

Read with interest as I have a raw kitchen space to plan the fine nits and picks of; though the basic layout, where the water and gas and electric need to go are decided and that is already stubbed and capped.

Code here? Unless I have a pro come to do the work I don't even need a permit as this is a remodel. However, I do like to follow code as it usually means you'll be safer and not burn the place down or blow it halfways to the moon or float it all down the curb. Or all of the above.

Good luck with your project mccdisco.
    Bookmark   March 15, 2014 at 2:51PM
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ReSquare Architecture + Construction
@okdokegal: where in the US do you live that you don't need a permit to remodel a kitchen?
1 Like    Bookmark   March 15, 2014 at 5:11PM
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Denita
Yes okdokegal, make sure to check with your local municipality or county. Here we have to have a permit for almost everything. I know some areas are less restrictive, but I haven't seen an area that allows kitchen remodels without benefit of a permit.
    Bookmark   March 15, 2014 at 10:41PM
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Curt D'Onofrio
My 2 cents. We have a downdraft vent over the stove. We brought the house with it already installed. I much rather though perfer that the exhaust gases were emitted to the outside. Why? Because every time she cooks (bless her heart) the house got that foggy look going on
    Bookmark   March 15, 2014 at 11:40PM
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kmkane
@ resquare & okedokegal. Most places in the country require you to have a permit to remodel a kitchen or do other major work. It's a municipality's responsibility to make sure residents are doing things correctly and more important, safely. If some yoyo doesn't follow code, and for instance, his house catches fire and then catches mine on fire, and the city has to send fire trucks out, it costs all of of us $$$, but hopefully no lives. Not all people get a permit. Those who don't, live with the consequences if they do it wrong. Kinda like someone not wanting to buy a vent hood for a gas cooktop over an island. Or so many other issues we've seen on Houzz. And Fred, I still think you're nuts
    Bookmark   March 15, 2014 at 11:54PM
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ReSquare Architecture + Construction
@kmkane: hence my question to okedokegal.
1 Like    Bookmark   March 16, 2014 at 5:35PM
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ReSquare Architecture + Construction
@ mccdisco
"so...without starting another war...should I just try and Google my local codes or am I covered with the windows, door, ceiling fan and A/C?"

If you don't want to hire a local qualified professional, you should ask your local building department. Anyone else's answer is potentially liable to get you into hot water on their anonymous assurances.
1 Like    Bookmark   March 16, 2014 at 5:40PM
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Linda
kmkane - there are places in this country that do not require building permits. Perhaps it is a coincidence, but very few of them have neighbors close enough to see the fire, let alone worry about the potential for fire spreading to neighboring properties.
1 Like    Bookmark   March 16, 2014 at 7:07PM
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kmkane
@Linda, you must be talking about the "WPWP" state - Alaska. "What plans what permit?" Seriously, tell me where you don't need a permit. I want to know
    Bookmark   March 16, 2014 at 11:00PM
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Curt D'Onofrio
A reminder. Years ago a guy in my neighborhood installed an addition on the top of his house himself. No permits were acquired for this was a diy project. Even though he was a carpenter by trade the city made him take it down....but only after the neighbors complained that it blocked their sun light...i.e. the city government didn't have a clue that the addition was being built. The addition was takened down. Short story ? Obtain the permits
1 Like    Bookmark   March 16, 2014 at 11:55PM
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GN Builders L.L.C
Curt, I seen this happen a few time. You get weekend warriors from Craig's list doing additions, decks, etc... So if neighbors don't complain, and town would issue them a fine, something will collapse. I heard it happen to a few people, they got a fine and on top of that, the had to get a permit to do a demo.
The scary part is, if something happens like fire, or collapse, and the work was done with no permit, the insurance company will not cover the damages.
I don't know if you seen this page Home Improvements Hall of Shame on Houzz. Here is the link, I posted a few job I came across when work was done with no permits. These hacks should be shot for doing this kind of work. Here is the link. http://www.houzz.com/discussions/881749/Home-Improvements--Hall-of-Shame-
1 Like    Bookmark   March 17, 2014 at 4:30AM
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GN Builders L.L.C
Funny thing is, this is first time, being in business almost 30 years I had a discussion about a fan issue. I think the only reason I kept this going is because I'm starting to like Fred, he is a nut for sure, but as we know "slow and uneducated people" as Fred called me, not far away from nut jobs like himself (nothing personal Fred :-) ) by the way my reaction could of been a little different if you said that to me in person, but here I take that as a compliment so it's all good, not to mention before I got here, I thought I was nuts, and then I met everyone else, so now I don't feel as bad.

I'll be frank on this fan issue... I give it one more shot LOL

IMO and probably 99.9% of people all over the world know and will say You need to have a kitchen fan PERIOD.

All Building science researches show that natural ventilation is not enough to create clean air environment, especially in the kitchen area. When it comes to clean air environment many professionals don't consider Natural ventilation being effective, simply because it is not a consistent source of ventilation throughout the year... whether its due to seasonal weather change, environment, security concerns, building design, etc and I will not get into technical data on the issue to make it simple.

Hood fan, bathroom fan, is a mechanical and efficient source of ventilation and is available on demand at any time and when its needed the most. When it comes to Natural ventilation,you cannot tell the weather to change or make wind to start blowing on the calm hot day, each time you turn on the stove and open your window to get the vapors, odors and grease out of the house. To have natural ventilation effective, you have to meet certain conditions for it to work, wind and pressure is one of the most important ingredients for it to work.

Code in the book basically puts it in simple words for you to keep everything far away from the cooktop that can catch fire and that if you don't have a Mechanical source of ventilation you need a window so you don't have to breath all in or fill the house with smoke... But as the window goes, everyone knows it will do nothing to ventilate a kitchen or remove grease and all that other good stuff, like someone said, there will be haze, there will be fumes, there will be odor and after you done cooking, it will take a good
30-1hr for it to clear up if you can keep window open that long.

They had to put something in the code on the issue, so they added " Natural Ventilation" even if its not efficient source of ventilation but at least someone will have a brain to put a window in the kitchen area... now if someone questions that, they can point a finger in the book and say you need at least a window.
Like many others said before Code is written to meet the minimum standard requirements.

Fan should be installed right over the cooktop and directly above the source which creating heat, vapors, grease,etc to eliminate the problem the minute it leaves the cooktop, not allowing it spread allover the house and mess everything up along the way. If you have a high capacity fan, you have to open the window, so the fan will not create a negative pressure in the house, by sucking all the air out " that was another code requirement that was floating here"
You see more and more people looking to install high capacity hood fans, especially in homes where people of Chinese or Indian decent, who use various methods of cooking which create smoke, odors, etc... As a matter a fact when they looking to purchase a home, that is one of the main concerns is the the kitchen and the hood fan.

Kitchen and bathroom fans you always install without thinking about it ... like you would install a light over the sink, like you would install a light switch when you open the door and not behind it, like you would set a toilet over the drain. There is also language in the code saying that you don't need a fan if you have a window in the bathroom. Well try to take a hot shower in a small bathroom and have your small window open, even if a window is right above the tub... see how effective that will be, before you know the paint will start to crumble, peel or turn color. You have to have a Fan in every bathroom as well. Period.

As local requirements go... Each township, or municipality has the jurisdiction to create/adopt/change rules, regulations, what ever you want to call it and enforce them, aside State laws or adopted codes to make something better and again to a better minimum. The reason they do that, is because to change something in the book can take years and years and its a complicated process. So if something needs to be changed which not making sense at all, they just cut it out completely, local building department will say if there is an issue provide manufacturer installation instruction before they approve something that is not in the book.

I personally didn't know it was a requirement ( we been installing them all the time) when I was building a new house about 3 years ago and a Homeowner ordered a hood fan and it came in damaged so they send it back. Plumbing inspector said you have to have a fan its a requirement, and Fire Inspector said the same thing when he did his inspection. He also said, not only they set off smoke detectors if any close by or in the next rooms next to the kitchen, it will make them malfunction and fail because the window cannot ventilate fast enough and grease particles have tendency to stick to the "censor strip" on the detector. So homeowner got a $30 fan just to get all inspections.
With that said , if I was doing building in a town where you can get away with installing one... code or no code a fan would be installed regardless... and when someone again asks me for advise, I will say again and again it is the code... if not in the Building code book, its in my common sense code book for sure and its on the front page and it comes from experience...
So ladies and gent's, I hope everyone will install and use Mechanical ventilation in the kitchen or bathroom area, because its cleaner and its healthier for you, your family and the surrounding environment, and that is a proven facts. Period.

Good luck
4 Likes    Bookmark   March 17, 2014 at 7:42AM
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Want to update my never been finished living /dining room.
Need to work with the sofa and striped chair and...
Anne Berry
Need help narrow kitchen-tired songle run of cabinets
tired pickled oak Jerusalem stone counter. in good...
desk212
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