There is nothing on Sevin's label to imply it washes off. If you want to know for sure you need to call the maker of the stuff and ask.

Sevin is systemic. It soaks into the plant. That's how it kills the pests when the pests eat the flesh of the plant.

No, you won't drop dead if you ingest a little, but if you're like me, you don't want to intentionally take in any more toxins then you have to especially if you know for a fact you can prevent it. It's those little amounts over time that cause problems in the long run. But it's your body, your choice.

If you want to learn about pesticides, a good place to start is here:

Integrated Pest Management
This lecture is presented in two parts. Each part is 90-minutes in length. Recorded in Sacramento County in California's Sacramento Valley, this lecture is by Mary Louise Flint, Ph.D., Director, IPM Education and Publications, UC Statewide IPM Project and Extension Entomologist & Cooperative Extension Specialist.

Education:
B.S. Plant Science, University of California, Davis
Ph.D. Entomology, University of California, Berkeley

Appointment:
100% Cooperative Extension

Research Interests:
Integrated pest management of landscape, agricultural and garden pests; biological control of arthropod pests; alternatives to pesticides; adoption of alternative practices by practitioners; innovative delivery of pest management information.

Topics discussed in the Integrated Pest Management Lecture:

* IPM references and resources
* Preventing pest problems
* Natural common enemies
* Making less toxic pesticide choices
* Controlling aphids, scales, caterpillars, coddling moths, tree borers, snails and slugs, and lawn insects.

You can watch the programs now online:

Just make sure you have Real Player installed or download it free.

Integrated Pest Management Part1 90 minutes

Integrated Pest Management Part 2 90 minutes

You'll want to bookmark the following link to Professor Flint's Lab Research on:
Controlling Pests in Gardens and Landscapes: Vegetables and Melons

I promise you'll learn one or two things to put in your gardening bag of pest management arsenals.

;)

I not sure if Sevin washes off or not, but I can tell you Sevin does NOT work after a rain.

This has happened 3 times in the past week. I spray my trees with Sevin because of Japanese beetles, to see the beetles drop within a 5 mins. If I get any rain, the beetles are back at it the next day. If no rain, the beetles say clear of the trees.

So based on what I've seen, assumption tells me that Sevin washes off easily.

BTW, I was reading up on Sevin and the conclusion I came to was that Sevin is not harmful to humans at the doses we would intake based on eating fruit/veggies that were sprayed with it. One of the articles said employees at the factory that makes Sevin were exposed at a rate of 1000 compared to the average person and that there were no issues (they gave actuals by weight not a rate... I'm going from memory and I had it as a ratio). They did say the only animal they tested that did have a reaction to Sevin was dogs. I can't remember if it was cancer or nervous system, but I'm pretty sure it was cancer, and the dose was extremely high, like being force fed the stuff on a daily bases. There was also something like 85% of Sevin being broken down by humans and leaving the body via urine within 24hrs.

Man, I wish I still had those articles because many of them were from university studies. Regardless, I feel Sevin is safe enough for me and my family to use on things we eat. Whether it's safe enough for you is up to you. Me, I'd just wash it without soap and eat. Not that I have anything against using soap to wash food with but it's ingrained in me that soap is for plates, forks, pans, etc..

Don't know about Sevin "rinsing off" but I know that dish soap will rinse off. We wash many things before canning with no problems - especially all the root vegetables. Smooth skin veggies pose no problems. Just hand agitate them for a few minutes in warm water with just a drop or two of soap and then rinse them well a couple of times.

Dave

Violet, I have to agree with Don on this. And it's from watching it work.

Last week, I had posted about Sevin not working for me and ask how it worked. Many replied and many said it works within a few mins.

Taking Don's advise, I adjusted my mix ratio with water and it works on contact and here's an example.

Two Japanese beetles... one on top of the other. I hit them with Sevin and watch.. They both start to act confused and delusional with in a minute then drop dead within a few minutes. Believe me, the one on top didn't squat off the plant and it still dropped dead.

Rest of the day, I don't see many JB's come to the tree but I get rain during the late evening. Next day, the dang tree is infested again and I have to spray again. Same thing happens.... I spray and the beetles drop dead and the rest stay off the tree. If I get any rain, Sevin no longer works...

If it soaked into the plant as you say, and the beetles died from eating the plant, I doubt, why would I need to spray every time the rain water washes off the tree?

Sevin is systemic? Are you sure?

korney19,

Sorry you guys are correct, I meant to say broad spectrum insecticide meaning it is toxic to beneficial insects including bees, lady beetles, parasitic wasps and many other beneficial insects, aquatic invertebrates and shell fish. It attacks the nervous systems of what it comes in contact with.

I wash veggies with "Environe" veggie soap, available at organic food stoors. It is even available at "Fred Meyers" in the pacific northwest. Not for the pesticides, but even for just the dust, dirt & aphids.

Do Not worry about it. When the doctor tells you that you are going to die from Cancer you will never remember you ate those peas. And you will not be able to prove it was the Sevin that caused your cancer. What a deal the chemical companies have. Yah Sure the stuff is safe it eat according to the company that sells it. Reminds me of the cigarette companies telling you it was safe to smoke cigarettes. They even hired experts to tell you to light up. it is safe.

Well if you believe that people will not lie to you to make a profit and to keep their jobs then I guess you can remember that when the doctor tells you that you should prepare to die from cancer. Terrible painful way to die.

Yah Sure a little Sevin wont kill you. nope it will cause the cancer and the cancer will kill you not the Sevin.

Throw the peas out in the trash and tell your friend not to ever again bring any food with any poisons on them. You are not interested.

Thanks for clearing that up... for a minute there I thought I had to worry--my GF has been using it on her dog for years now for fleas, I think there's even directions on the label for that purpose. Not that I'm going to eat her dog or anything...

Sorry, I must have missed Don Yellman's post (jellyman) about it above.

Hey organic_nut/koreyk, I know how you feel about man-made stuff like pesticides, fungicides and water soluble fertilizers already... weren't you banned many times for your misinformational preaching on the tomato forum? I think you use the word poisons too freely. Burn something on the grill and you may be eating more cancer causing carcinogens than the man-made products you refuse to use! Or garden too long in the sun and get skin cancer!

As long as you don't turn your posts into preaching, I'll continue to read them, but when such a strong bias--almost a religion--overtakes meaningful content, it often rubs many the wrong way--some will stand up & say something and some will quietly stand by and do nothing even if they don't agree. I did find your Groundhog thread amusing last year or so though.

My neighbor 4 houses over swears by "sevin" to control insects. His entire back yard is his garden. I don't know what ratio he mixes it to but it reeks of the smell. Only guy i know that can kill a Hosta! Great guy, offers me berrys every year but i turn him down. I've told him that he over does the Sevin thing. No sign of insects eating his plants and he sprays. I think Sevin has it's place to be used as a tool but it can be abused. I Welcome birds to my garden and watch them every morning sitting atop Tomato stakes looking for bugs. Sometimes i get some Aphids sucking on the pepper plant leafs and i mix 3 drops dish soap to a gallon of water and put that in my pump up sprayer and saturate my garden.

A little perspective
Do you *need* those peas? Are you hungry or malnourished ...kinda doubt it since you are online.
If, ...IF..., there is any doubt about the time between application and harvest, Throw them away.

Be nice to your Aunt, as that was a wonderful gift, IMO, but if she asks about the peas explain that any pesticide or fungicide (Sevin dust or other) _MUST_ be used according to the label and harvest _MUST_ not occur prior to the time stated on the label. She might tell you it was the (10-15%) Sevin dust and picked the day after or later, in which case just wash as described below and try to enjoy that wonderful crispness and flavor -snow peas are yummy!
In *most* applications, the time to wait is one or two days, not two weeks! I am pretty sure Sevin(carbaryl) dust can be used the day of/before harvest but if what she used says two weeks then do NOT consume any food that has been picked before then.
Typically, fungicides require longer waits than topical pesticides. Systemic 'cides are much, much worse. I would lose a crop rather than use any systemic product in a garden of food ... unless I was malnourished and starving, of course.

You might suggest a neem oil product to her. It is *much* safer than Sevin(carbarl) and works to kill/deter JB's, as well as many other uses.
RE: Carbaryl at PAN and neem oil at PAN
(note: Some neem oil "products" are not quite as safe as pure neem oil.)

Washing veggies
Using soap to wash chemicals off a vegetable/fruit is evidence of pure, but well meaning, ignorance. At best you are adding another chemical. Dish soap is for dense, not porous, objects.
Use clean, running water and a vegetable brush.
In the case of snow peas, or other similar veggies, agitate the heck out of the pods in a pan of clean water and then rinse the pods under fast flowing water. That is SOP for any vegetable where a veggie brush(a soft nail brush can sub...) cannot be used.
There is *NO* product that can be applied to just any vegetable or fruit to neutralize the pesticide or fungicide. They only add a surfactant to make water wetter. It is a gimmick with dubious value which *still* requires using veggie brush and/or rinsing.

The perspective here is that organic is best in all but the worst of situations. IMHO, the 'fast food' attitude of just tossing a chemical on plants to kill bugs is just plain wrong. Chemicals should *only* be used when absolutely mandatory. Backyard gardens do not usually fall into that category.

Rem: an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

The waiting period for Sevin is 1 day to 2 weeks depending on the crop. As always, CAREFULLY read the label and follow it to the letter.

Using a pesticide in a manner not consistent with the label means using it in a manner known or likely unsafe.

Even the labels don't tell the whole story, but not reading and following the label is suicide.

Pesticides may be OK where absolutely needed, but they are not something to be treated lightly. Many products at big box stores (including Sevin) are *known* carcinogens and nervous system disruptors and a few interfere with reproduction (birth defects).

That is what is known/tested, and says nothing about frequent, low dosage exposures which are generally not tested on humans for obvious reasons.

I just looked up Relative Toxicity Of Some Common House And Garden Insecticides and it seems that Sevin is about 6 times as toxic (orally) as Neem. If you're interested, it shows both dermal and oral toxicities, and how much you'd need to ingest to do yourself in (which, by the way, you can do with Neem).

That's a good link, Lelia, but very deceiving. Unfortunately most of the pesticide info is based on what is called acute toxicity.

Acute toxicity means death, vomiting, convulsions and the like from a single exposure.

It does not take into account whether the substance is a known carcinogen, nervous system disruptor, reproductive system inhibitor, ground water pollutant etc.

There is no tracking the effects of pesticides over the long term on humans (who would volunteer?) and absolutely no studies done on the pesticide cocktails resulting from synergistic effects of multiple pesticides interacting with each other and even resulting in a new chemical structure.

Yes, neem oil has a much lower LD50 than Sevin and even water is toxic in sufficient quantities, but that's just part of the story and unfortunately it's all of the story that the companies and governments feel they need to tell us about.

Thalidimide was considered safe to use by Doctors at one time. :)

I don't use sevin, I view all poisons with suspicion, that's just me.

V, you just gave me another reason why I usually bypass your post. Glad to see others call you out on these sort of things.

True, justaguy, but it does explain that those doses are what is required to kill a 150 lb human. Speaking of pesticide cocktails, though, I remember many years ago (over 20) learning that Sevin reacts with the nitrates or nitrites in smoked foods to produce a compound that causes birth defects, making it advisable for pregnant women who ingest foods containing those substances to avoid breathing Sevin dust. Dunno if it's ever been disproven, but that's about when I became an organic gardener. I don't trust any product that kills a wide range of insects, and it bothers me enormously when I can smell a pesticide, because I know I'm breathing it in.

Lelia, that's an interesting chart.

table salt requires 0.45 pound to kill a 150# person
neem oil requires 0.75 pounds ...

table salt causes 50% of the rats to die with 3g/kg dosage.
neem oil required 5g/kg ...

That implies neem oil is safer to ingest than table salt!

That's hard to swallow(yuk-yuk).
Any updated version?

Smell does not mean you are inhaling the active ingredient because the odor is often a by-product. Smelling the coffee is not drinking it. ...I know ...I do not like it either and also avoid it with any synthetic 'cides(use a mask).
Due to the sulfur compounds, neem has an odor; not unpleasant to me... not pleasant either; just tolerable.

justaguy, here's the scoop on neem oil extract if you are up to it(a little technical).
E X T O X N E T(Extension Toxicology Network)
Pesticide Information Profile of AZADIRACHTIN

The chem structure is here:
http://chemfinder.cambridgesoft.com/result.asp
(Type AZADIRACHTIN into search box)
...

justaguy, here's the scoop on neem oil extract if you are up to it(a little technical).

Thanks! I am actually very familiar with neem oil and it's my go-to garden product. I don't have any issues using it, sorry if I gave that impression.

I just do not regard the LD-50 as being anything more than the beginning of the story when it comes to the chemicals (synthetic or organic) that we gardeners sometimes spray the food we, our families and friends will eat.

My two cents here.....I think that this discussion is informative. A good discussion calls out erronous assertations and gives some valuable hints and information to more wisely use pesticides whether organic or nonorganic.
If pesticides are used I believe it is helpful to know how to use them properly. Sometimes it seems that the more assertive organic people want to hinder a proper disscussion[?].
I find that most often bugs are not eating the eating part of the plant, but the leaves...so try not to apply on the harvested part in those situations.

Good points Wayne! While I use both organic and non-organic methods in my yarden, the more I feel I'm being "force-fed" organics, the more I feel I need to resist... to stick up for the "other side." Just think of all the non-posters who just read and don't question and believe everything they see posted by the "experts" here--hey, if a long-time poster here says it's so, then it must be the truth!

There are some things that just can't be taken care of successfully, effectively, or easily with organic methods, yet OG'ers will relentlessly post ways that they believe work, maybe because a website says so, yet haven't had the need to try the methods they recommend, or even if did try but they failed... and still recommend them! I'm not trying to knock any methods by anyone, but that's my point--if something works for you then great, regardless of organic or not, and please don't try to "convert" people or knock other's success.

There is an Organic forum at GW... it must be slow or something, maybe because there's nobody to convert... it is amusing reading some of the threads though.

Mark

I agree. It is a benchmark, just a benchmark. However, Lethal Dosage of 50% of the subjects(rats) is a good reference for the immediate toxicity and I think why it gets quoted so much. Wouldn't you agree?
I was really trying to point out that the PAN Pesticides Database has links for most chemicals which describe the methods and the tests and who did the test(s) in more detail. All the tests, including any for cumulative toxicity are described. One just has to dig a little deeper.
And although some tests are sponsored by government and/or corporate grants(is there a difference?), the tests performed by universities are more easily trusted ...or so I believe.

shelley_t, just so you know ,,,
I've never used Sevin. Reading the contents and possible uses, combined with the usage warnings, at the store always made me look elsewhere.
I'm glad I have not.
While researching something else, I found that Sevin(5 or 10% carbaryl) is really nasty stuff. The PAN data for carbaryl is as bad as or worse than for DDT, IMHO.

The United Kingdom banned use by anyone except professionals in the mid-90's and put some pretty stiff usage restrictions on them because of the carcinogenic effects possible in humans. ... All products containing carbaryl, like Sevin, were banned completely, for agri and/or medicinal use, everywhere in the UK in 2001.
Also banned in Austria, Germany, and Sweden and is not authorized in the EU(not quite a ban).

IOW, most of the world does not authorize anyone to use it anymore. ...

If it were my Aunt, I think I'd have a discussion about Sevin(carbaryl) just to make sure she knows how nasty it can be. Maybe she does and at least takes adequate usage precautions; then again, maybe she does not. ...

Neem oil is marginally effective as a Japanese beetle control. If you want to spray it every day or every couple of days, then maybe. The effect is very short-lived.

There have been long term health studies of Sevin on humans:

"An epidemiological study on carbaryl production workers employed between 1960 and 1978 showed no increase in cancer mortality."

There have also been acute toxicity studies on humans using human volunteers.

Yep, Neem oil products require repeated applications. It is biodegradable and begins to breakdown within 50-100 hours of mixing with water so every 3 or 4 days would make sense for a bad infestation and follow with weekly maintenance sprays.
However, it does work and does not cause cancer or Parkinson's or, for that matter, any other disease. Some people might get a burn with application directly to the skin... It's primary means of control is to interrupt the life cycle of the insect so it does not kill adults. It does make the plant/fruit/veggie less tasteful which generally causes the bug to move elsewhere.

Tests on "carbaryl production workers" have almost no value because workplace is controlled environment and workers are mandated to use proper protection. And toxicity levels *only* show how quick it can kill you. Just because it cannot kill you quick does not mean it cannot kill you by causing other problems like cancer.

So I am going to have to get on the soapbox just a bit here.
Carbaryl(Sevin dust) is sold over the counter in USA and used by normal people who do not have a clue as to how to use it. With proper application it might be used safely.

However, let me tell you folks how d! stupid the public can be. I have seen home gardener's spread Sevin dust by reaching into the bag and tossing the dust on the plants. I asked about that and they told me it was okay - just a little buring which goes away when it is washed off. That made me think it was relatively benign. Sevin(carbaryl) is not. It is very nasty stuff that can take many years to show the effects. We barely understand cancer and do not have a clue as to why some people get it and others do not.
Prior to banning it the UK placed usage restrictions requiring applications _only_ to be made via closed cabs(that was about 1994). Hand/manual spreading was not allowed. There was a reason for that: It was about 1992(15 years ago!) that new studies showed carbaryl could cause cancer in humans.

In addition to causing cancer, it is a Cholinesterase inhibitor which can cause the cholinesterase enzyme from working properly in humans(decreases it). That has been shown to be possible to lead to Parkinson's, among other problems.

Now since Sevin is the THIRD most popular pesticide used in USA, how many people have ingested it by not getting it off fruit and veggies and how often over a lifetime do people ingest it and how many repeated exposures are required before Dad or Mom succumb to it and why is it that USA has the highest rate of cancer of any place on Earth but we still allow the general public to use carbaryl based products in the face of the FACTS that (almost) everyone else on the planet has banned or made it not publicly available?

If there was even an ounce of character at Bayer, they would pull it off the general market. In truth, when they got from purchase of a branch of Union Carbide, they never would have put it on the market for the general public to use.
Yes, I am PO'd. People I like are sick. They used Sevin like it was talc powder because they believed it was okay. Yes, they, some, are ignorant but they are still good people who believed that being non-toxic meant it would not hurt them.
Toxicity is a very worthwhile characteristic for poisoning but it does *not* include the toxicity of related illnesses caused by the substance.

In review of how it should be applied, there is no way I can do that safely. I do not have the equipment or the throw-away clothes(jump suits) that are rec'd. It is an absolutely *worthless* product for the general public in light of the required application method and, in particular, the fact that there are substitutes which are not dangerous or as dangerous.
The more I research it, the more appalled I am that it is still widely available ...even at Wal-Mart.
It should be pulled-off the store shelves so Wiley cannot even have the chance of reaching into the bag or Mary inhaling it ...or Shelley eating it from home garden produce.

neognomic,

Great post. You did a superb job of touching on things I have long talked about.

Sevin (carbaryl) is considered by most in the US to be perfectly safe. Other countries have outright banned it's use. There is a 'hot topics' forum on Garden Web where those inclined to discuss debate the politics can go, but for me it is enough to note that the US is way behind most other industialized nations when it comes to consumer safety and environmental protection.

One can find studies showing just how safe it's use is, but expanding the search outside the US and corporate funded studies shows something quite different.

It is flat out amazing to me that not only is sevin available without a license in the US, but some formulations are labeled for use on plants that will be eaten.

I used to be an advocate for more information on labels (after I lost a 7 year old golden retriever to cancer due to a pesticide known (not to me and not on the label) to cause cancer in dogs), but I have more recently come to understand the plethora of idiots who go to Wal-Mart and buy pesticides and just spray them without ever reading the label.

It is my opinion that most pesticides should be flat out illegal for homeowners because so many are too lazy/apathetic to even read the label.

The study I cited was a long term cancer study of production workers in a carbaryl factory. They are subject to a higher exposure than just about any human being.

Carbaryl has been studied for more than 50 years. It is one of, if not the most studied pesticides on the market. Neem oil has been only USDA approved since 1995. Neem is a wonderful and apparently harmless product but there have been no long term studies of exposure to neem. At this time neem oil is considered benign to humans.

One of the often cited complaints against Sevin that it is toxic to honeybees and aquatic invertibrates, also applies to neem oil. Label directions for neem require the user to not apply neem when bees are in the area.

By the way the neem oil study I saw for control of Japanese Beetles indicated it was only effective for 2 days; Sevin was effective for 14 days; synthetic Pyrethrins were most effective at 16 days.

Your assertion that Sevin tainted food is causing an epidemic of cancer in the United States however is completely unwarranted, and frankly, irresponsible. According to the EPA under "Dietary Risks Both acute and chronic (non-cancer and cancer) risks from food are below EPAÂs level of concern."

Also, your claim that Sevin requires throw away clothes or jump suits is patently false. The MSDS requires gloves and "Long-sleeved shirt and long pants. Shoes plus socks." which is a far cry from a jump suit

As is your statement that Sevin as as bad or worse than DDT, that is also a flight of fancy. DDT was banned because it accumulates in the environment, lasting for decades. Sevin degrades completely in about a month and the products of this decomposition are not poisonous.

You keep citing UK this and EU that but I am not all that interested in regulations in the UK other than as a curiosity. They really have no bearing on American law. There are a lot of bans and restrictions on EU citizens that do not apply to Americans.

Thanks.
I check-out hot topics next chance I get. ...
I have to, basically, agree with your last sentence. ... as much as I dislike the idea that corpo _can_ get it and then one never knows and, too, that well meaning but over-zealous people might keep worthwhile products from consumers. E.g., neem based products c/b placed out of reach of homeowners.
I just found that manab, another known carcinogen (and looks as bad as carbaryl), is used on just about every crop CA sells and in almost every county that grow produce. This is not good.
Immediate safety seems to be the focus but there is little to no way to know the long term safety to the general public. Any product that can cause cancer is suspect.

Perhaps there should be a license required. Like a gun carrying license, ya know. Using some of these chemicals is like carrying a loaded weapon ...

It is so weird - smoking is banned and/or being banned in every public location because of the VERY weak link between cancer and second-hand smoke yet we allow Joe to dust with Sevin?!?

[OT]
I am 90% certain I lost my Montana(1/2 Shephard & 1/2 Labrador) due to the poisons in dogfood. But it happened before the big stink that's been in all the papers. I think they have been poisoning our pets for years and they refuse to compensate us, as if they could...
[/OT]

Sevin degrades completely in about a month and the products of this decomposition are not poisonous.

You keep citing UK this and EU that but I am not all that interested in regulations in the UK other than as a curiosity. They really have no bearing on American law. There are a lot of bans and restrictions on EU citizens that do not apply to Americans.

I think you need to do a little more homework, particularly looking outside the formal tests in the US. You appear to dismiss the research done by other governments out of hand as a 'curiosity' which implies they have no real world value. I suppose this is a viable position if you believe the US rules and everyone else drools, but of not then...

The US is one of the most capitalist nations in the world and as such is more influenced by corporate lobbies than most other nations. (No, I am not some Marxist, in fact I lean more toward libertarianism (particularly civil libertarianism) as a political philosophy than any other). I simply recognize the undue influence corporations have on US policy makers than they do in other nations.

Sevin is flat out illegal in many countries, but available for you and I in the US to spray on our food. MMMMM... Sevin seasoning.

It's a known human carcinogen, but the EPA/USDA say it is OK if used as directed. Trouble is every time the under funded and under staffed USDA/EPA test they find produce with much higher than approved pesticide residue. They simply do not test much due to funding issues.

Sevin is also known to be a cholinesterase inhibitor which means it screws with insect, mammalian and human nervous systems.

I would like to link to a study done by Cornell which starts off poo-pooing concerns over the use of Sevin, but frankly admits it causes reproductive issues in dogs
Here is the quote:

"We do know that carbaryl is quite toxic to honey bees, certain beneficial insects such as lady beetles, and parasitic wasps and bees, certain species of aquatic insects, and some forms of shellfish such as shrimp and crabs. Care must be taken when using carbaryl in areas where these organisms exist."

Extensive evidence indicates that carbaryl does not cause cancer or genetic changes in animals(in spite of it being listed as a carcinogen and reproductive disorder causing chemical). Carbaryl has also been extensively tested for its effect on reproduction and the occurrence of birth effects (we call this teratogenic potential). Experiments have been conducted on various strains of rats and mice, and on hamsters, gerbils, guinea pigs, rabbits, dogs, sheep, and monkeys. Adverse effects have occurred only in dogs."

Hmmm.. so is the average homeowner/gardener more likely to have a sheep as a pet or a dog? Having lost a golden retriever at the age of seven to a pesticide company using a product known to cause tumorous cancers in dogs I don't just look at the estimated human toxic effects (and in the US they are all estimated or use applicators), I look at the effects to other living things I have on my property from good bugs, to pets to kids. I have found the US EPA/USDA to list things as perfectly safe to humans that other countries consider *known* to mess up humans and have thus banned.

While the US studies are damning enough, other nations with less corporate influence are reaching other conclusions.

Canada found that Sevin:

2. It causes birth defects in mammals, especially dogs.

3. It worsens the condition of people with hypertension and people on anti-depressant drugs.

4. It impairs the function of the pituitary gland, the thyroid gland, and the reproductive system.

5. It causes hyperactivity and learning disabilities in mammals.

6. It could increase the chance of heart attack in people with weak hearts.

7. The main break-down product, nitrosocarbaryl, which is easily created in the human gut, is a potent cancer-causing agent.(this contradicts your information that says:"Sevin degrades completely in about a month and the products of this decomposition are not poisonous.") (note: I am quoting a Canadian government study)

8. It causes irreversible chromosomal damage to human DNA (the genes in our cells).

Assuming one is the type to believe the US regulatory agencies are the best in the world, there are plenty of reasons to avoid Sevin. Assuming one understands how extensively the US government and regulatory agencies are influenced by corporate contributions one might wish to take a look at the determinations other nations such as Canada and various European nations have reached.

Like I said, in many nations outside the US Sevin is flat out banned. In the US it is considered safe to spray on food.

Go figure.

Ultimately we will all do as we wish. My only hope is we will all do so with sound information at our disposal so we can make reasonable, educated, informed decisions.

Mentioning the current regulations that pertain to pesticide use here in the United States is an ordinary statement of fact. However, your advocating for what American law ought to become or arguing from your political opinions as facts on the other hand, is politics.

justaguy2 you are now making broad political statements, and political advocacy has no place in this forum. There are rules of behavior on Gardenweb. You have moved into the political and are presenting a political viewpoint and advocacy. I suggest you take your own advice and discuss it on the other forum that you mentioned.

> here's the scoop on neem oil extract if you are up to it(a little technical). (link to EXTOXNET)

Well...why not compare the entry for Carbaryl (Sevin) with that for Neem!

Lo! And behold! Carbaryl is only 10 to 20 times more toxic (acute oral) to animals than Neem. If you are going to use EXTONET to praise Neem, then you must praise Sevin as well.

As far as EU countries go....well...the French protest GMO foods but eat unpasteurized cheese. What a bunch of backwards unsanitary superstitous ignoramuses! ;-) It is the USA FDA that is more stringent than EU equivalents (drugs often get approved in Europe before the USA).

> Adverse effects have occurred only in dogs.

Chocolate and Tylenol are very toxic to dogs. Limonene (orange oil) is very toxic to rats. Cats are ultra sensitive to pyrethrins (used in flea control products and "safe, organic" bug sprays for veggies) and herbal extracts. Because every animal has its own unique sensitivities, a wide variety of animals have to be tested to rigorously predict effects in humans. "...Rats and mice, and on hamsters, gerbils, guinea pigs, rabbits, dogs, sheep, and monkeys..." seem like a wide variety of animals to me.

> Sevin is also known to be a cholinesterase inhibitor
> which means it screws with insect, mammalian and
> human nervous systems.

Well....duh, a poison has to have some target. If the cholinesterase of insects is much more sensitive to Sevin than the cholinesterases found in the amphibian- reptile- mammal branch of the animal kingdom, then we have a selective toxicity, where doses that have almost no effect on humans kill bugs. It is like antibiotics. Bacteria and humans often have the same biochemical target, but due to evolutionary divergence, the target in bacteria is much more sensitive than the same target in humans. While finding selective pesticides and selective antibiotics is easy, finding selective anti-cancer drugs is very hard. It is very diffucult to find a poison that is selective for cancer cells because they are so similar to normal cells. Hair doesn't fall out of people exposed to low doses of Sevin; but a year ago I noticed that Senator Spector was bald when televised by C-Span (he is no longer bald, by the way).

> ...possible to lead to Parkinson's...

Parkinson's involves dopamine, not acetylcholine (ie., what "cholinesterase" and Sevin is involved with). The insecticide "rotenone" (approved for organic farmers) can cause Parkinson's, but only if injected (not oral or dermal). Rotenone disrupts electron transport in mitochondria, creating abnormal reactions with oxygen, generating "free radicals". The herbicide "Paraquat" also generates "free radicals" and can induce Parkison's when injected. None of these observations in regards to rotenone or paraquat are relevent to Sevin, until proven otherwise.

> ...and political advocacy has no place in this forum...

While I think that it is silly to think that EU regulations are (inherently) more enlightened than those in the USA; I don't think that a comparison between EU and USA regulations crosses the line into "political advocacy". If regulations differ, it is worthwhile to investigate the reasons. However, mere difference does not prove anything. I agree that "...political advocacy has no place on this forum...", but I don't think that we are there yet.

The reader may find the following very recent EPA link of interest, regarding Sevin:

http://www.epa.gov/EPA-PEST/2009/March/Day-18/p5695.htm