I'll try to address a few of the points.

Although rootstock does effect size, it more directly affects growth rate. Don't think of the rootstock as determining ultimate size, but as determining amount of pruning needed, easy and frequency of maintenance, etc. Ultimate size can be better determined by the trainer/pruner.

As you mentioned, rootstock also affect many other things. A few factors influenced by rootstock choice include tree architecture, fruit size and quality, disease and pest resistance, drought resistance, soil adaptability, cold hardiness, proclivity to sucker, graft compatibility, amount of fruit produced (productivity), how young the tree will produce (precocity), and how long the tree will last and produce fruit (senescence).

As for planting times, this is a great time to plant. The problem may be sourcing the trees this time of year. Many growers don't accept orders this late or are sold out. You may have to place the order for spring shipment.

Maybe there is someone here, with lots of experience, from southern Missouri, but if not, check with the local agricultural extension office there. There is a decent chance they can provide you with information about which varieties are known to do well in your area. They can also advise you about what pests and diseases you are likely to have to deal with in the area. They should be able to give you lots of locally specific advise that you might not be able to obtain from general sources.

Stark Bros. is a excellent online nursery located in Missouri.
They have a package of 3 disease resistant apples, one yellow.

Here is a link that might be useful: Stark Bros.

Rootstock is easy to understand: dwarf rootsocks have very weak roots, blow over easily, will die of drought easily. They lack vigor, and therefore don't need any pruning.

semi-dwarf rootstocks have much stronger roots, are more drought resistant and won't fall over/blow over. But you will need Summer pruning to keep them at a smaller size. If left alone, they will obviously get bigger than the dwarf rootstocks.

I am a big fan of MM111, a relatively drought tolerant rootstock that thrives even in horrible soil. The only place where this rootstock is probably not so good is in really cold places like Minnesota northward.

The obvious point not made here that you already partially understand is that dwarfing rootstocks bear fruit sooner. The variety of apple is also important as some are by nature much more precoscious than others.

I don't know how difficult it is to grow fruit on M9 where you are, but it will bear fruit years before varities on 111. However you can speed up the process by planting varieties like Goldrush that have an early fruiting habit. Even on 111, Goldrush will typically start bearing fruit in 3 to 4 years but M9 could give you fruit on the second.

9, however, is more susceptable to rodent damage, drought stress, improper managment (allowed to fruit too much too early) and requires support (staking). 111 is my favorite rootstock but I wish it was more precoscious.

Prcoscious types like Goldrush and Arkansas Black also require less and less skillful pruning than more vigorous varieties like Fuji.

Thanks for the responses. After posting this yesterday, I actually stumbled across some pretty informative articles on the University of Missouri's Ag Extension website. Apparently it's not easy to grow an apple tree in Missouri, because fire-blight, powdery mildew, scab, and cedar apple rust are common. But it did explain the rootstocks very well, and actually said two of the best choices for Missouri are G.16 (which I haven't seen anyplace offer) and M.9. It also said to avoid M.26. There was also a great list of quite a few apple varieties and their resistance levels to the various diseases.

Now I'm pretty much down to researching the different apple varieties that look like they'd do well there to figure out what kind of flavor/texture/storage times the apples have. My mom likes Macintosh type apples. My dad and I are addicted to Honeycrisps. I know the Honeycrisps are high maintenance...but my father is quite the baby-er of all things growing...so I know one of the trees I buy will be a Honeycrisp. They're just so damn good, how can I resist trying? Lol.

From what I read, Goldrush isn't a great variety for Missouri...can't remember why, but I think it was low resistances to the diseases. I don't know much about the first 3 diseases I listed, but I can only assume that I'll need something with good resistance to cedar apple rust, as Eastern red cedars are indigenous to that area and are EVERYWHERE.

Hi, sbradley! The G.16 rootstock is terrific. Cummins Nursery has a nice selection of scions available on that rootstock, and now is the time to order. Don't be afraid to try varieties with which you're not familiar, but do be ready to implement a regimented spraying program irrespective of your selections. It's not hard at all. A little one-gallon sprayer is all you need. Immunox will handle the CAR. I recomment dealing with Cummins by e-mail. They'll answer your questions forthrightly, and send you excellent rootstock. Misterbaby.

Hi Sbradley-
If you're looking with something with good resistance to Cedar Apple Rust, check out William's Pride. I do grow Liberty, Enterprise, and Williams pride which are all said to have CAR resistance. But, even when my other trees have been hit hard by CAR, the Williams Pride was (dare I say) "Immune". Not even a single spec of CAR. Amazing. It always seems to do very well in the taste test department, and that is even more noteworthy as thatÂs a trait which is hard to find in an early ripening apple. I give my WP some dormant oil, and since I bag my apples, thatÂs all the spray it gets. Very cool.

Some of us have come a long way from where we were a few years ago. At that point, CAR was revenging all my trees, and very-difficult-to-obtain "Ferbam" was about all that was talked about here. Now we know that 2-3 sprays of easily-obtainable Immunox is all it takes to ward off the devastating CAR. Pretty simple.

But, one question I have for you, is why youÂd want to go with a higher maintenance tree like Honey Crisp, and then go also with a disease resistant variety like WP? Once youÂve done all the hard work of coming up with a spraying schedule, and obtaining the sprays, once youÂve filled the sprayer, itÂs it really much work to spray that second tree? This question is a little rhetorical as I also have Honeycrisp and my 3 disease resistant apples! :-)

I see you originally had considered Enterprise. During my conversations with people here, the flavor review was mixed. My tree is still young, and has only given me one apple. That apple wasnÂt very good, but I suspect that tree has wet feet (in a very damp area), and I donÂt think IÂll be keeping it much longer. Really IÂm keeping it around so I can graft a branch of it onto another tree in my good area later.

If your mom likes MacÂs, Liberty is a nice disease resistant choice. ItÂs not as immune to diseases as the WP, so I still prefer to spray it. Though, I have friends who donÂt spray theirs at all and still get plenty of decent apples. Others here will say the flavor doesnÂt compare to something like an AshmedÂs Kernel, or maybe a Cox Orange Pippen, and it doesnÂt. But it will handle the diseases better and does taste quite close to a Mac.

If you want to talk purely about flavor, check out the link below. About 2/3 of the way down we started tallying up all the results.

Hope this helps,
-Glenn

Here is a link that might be useful: Best of the Best tasting apple varieties

I second Glenn's comments about the virtues of William's Pride. I have had the same good experiences with it here in Maryland.

You might find it useful to get in touch with nurseries specifically devoted to apples for the South. I have put a link to Century Farm Orchards below, which has an extensive collection of apples suited to southern growing conditions. I am sure they would be more than happy to field questions from you.

Here is a link that might be useful: century farm orchards

I re-read your comments and Cummins availability list. I would recommend the Honeycrisp for you and Dad, the Spartan(a disease resistant Mac cross) for Mom, and a Grimes Golden(the mother of all pollinators) for a versatile yellow apple. If you want to sweeten the pot with a crunchy, spicy, tart red apple, the King David is amazing. All on G.16. Good luck! Misterbaby.

Ah, hooray for this wealth of information!

Glen, to answer your rhetorical question...the Honeycrisp because they're just so damn good. And actually, if the diseases can be controlled with a spraying regime, then I suppose flavor is the first priority. My dad will take utmost care of his trees; like me, he's a bit obsessive about things and is quite the perfectionist. So I'm not really worried about his ability or determination in making them thrive.

Yesterday at the grocery store I bought 2 Honeycrisps and 2 Braeburns. I'm going to taste test them and see if there's any comparison at all. I have read the description of the Cox Pippin and it does sound very good.

We like juicy, crispy, sweet/tart apples. I loathe Red Delicious, I absolutely despise that mealiness. I like my apple to be like you always imagined the cartoon apple would taste like when Bugs Bunny bit into it. :)

I suggest you not even consider Cox. It is difficult enough up here and I've never heard of it being grown succesfully in any climate similar to yours.

I second Baby's recs except that it's light on winter keepers- only Spartan keeps and it is not at all a cooker. I think you are mistaken about Goldrush, it is an excellent apple in the midwest as long as you control CAR and has all of Cox's complexity with acid and sugar except that in your climate it will sweeten up more. It is one of the easiest apples to grow here and actually produces fruit without spray. It will keep in a cool cellar into Spring and still have a snappy texture.

I am in the business of growing bearing age trees and installing and caring for home and estate orchards. I grow scores of varieties but if I have a staple, it is Goldrush. Ed Fackler, a well known orchard guru, has it in his top 10 and I believe his climate in Indiana is similar to yours.

There is good reason why the Harvestman, who's forgotten more about apples than I'll ever learn, presses you on the Goldrush. It's a marvelous fruit--power crunch, juicy, sweet/tart complexity, and easy to look at. It's precocious and easy to grow, even in MO, #18 in apple production. Just spray, if necessary. If you stay headed on the Cox path, I recommend the Cherry Cox which is somewhat more grower friendly. Also, supermarket apple comparisons and evaluations can lead to misguided conclusions. For example, the Honeycrisp in your refrigerator could have been picked last week in Minnesota, while the Braeburn could have been harvested in New Zealand nine months ago, kept in controlled storage, then shipped on a slow boat to Los Angeles, then trucked to Branson. One can end up comparing apples to pineapples. The Red Delicious is actually an outstanding apple, but only if you grow it in your backyard--no mush there! And especially if you grow the right RD cultivar. We're all trying to be helpful. This business is simply more complicated than a novice might imagine. Best wishes, Misterbaby.

Thanks Misterbaby. My response to that compliment is that I've forgotten more about apples than I know. Also, I don't expect my opinions to carry any more weight than anyone elses here (took me a while to accept that). Anyone growing apples in the midwest has infinately more experience growing apples in those conditions than me.

I certainly agree with you about apples from the store. Also there are other issues like that in commercial storage Honecrisp allegedly holds up well but the ones I grow break down in the fridge very quickly.

Braebern is a world class apple in my estimation, but is unfortunately very difficult to grow in midwestern conditions according to Ed and others. Goldrush is in a class by itself in being both an extraordinarily complex gourmet apple and also easy and productive to grow in a wide range of conditions.

I wonder if anyone has access to Ed Fackler's top ten apple list- I know it's been posted on this forum. I will ask him for it if no one reading this topic responds. It would be very useful to anyone trying to pick apples to grow in the Midwest.

By the way, in my conditions Red Delicious never really becomes an exceptional apple. Even the original strain is kind of woody in texture even though it's crisp and sweet- beautiful when sprayed for blotch and speck, but no aromatics and no acid kick. However, it was Stark Bros that popularized it after selecting it (and naming and patenting it) from hundreds of entrants in a contest they held for a new variety. It is relatively disease resistant and a very reliable producer and I guess in Missouri it has better texture than here.

My favorite Cox substitute right now is Kidd's Orange Red. I've never tried Cherry. Is it as tart as Cox or another watered down derivative?

Caint speak personally to Cherry's flavor. I am relying on Steve Cummins' recommendation for the Cherry, and my own difficulty getting the Kidd's up and running, in an attempt to avoid another Butterfly Bush experience for Brad. I've had RD's around Charlottesville that were huge and clearly over the top in every other respect. The RD's I grow here in the Mid South (Memphis area) are good, for sure, but not world class. In both cases, original strain. Misterbaby.

Mister Baby, I took advice from you (Pink Lady), Harvestman (Braeburn), and Jellyman (Goldrush). I received and planted the trees just in the last week. Reading the above posts now has me wondering about Braeburn, growing in the deep south. I'm in the Shreveport-Texarkana area and we can get really hot-humid-and dry as the spring goes into summer. Guess it doesn't matter much now since I've got em' in the ground. You're climate is very similar to mine, so do you grow Braeburn and what sort of problems should I expect? I highly reccomend trees from Starks (GOLDRUSH), very nice!

I've never recommended Braebern for southern growers. I just like to point out that if you've got the climate for it it is a world class tart. You'd probably never know that from the stuff in the grocery store picked too green and waxed.

This year my Braes are mediocre because we didn't have enough heat (near record cool June same July and even Aug was a bit cool). My Fuji's, which are considered as late did just fine. Braeburn is a demanding apple that Ed Fackler considers too dificult in Indiana conditions. I'd run with his recs on that one anyday although I don't recall the specific issues he mentioned.

Congratulations, John! And flush the misgivings about Braeburn. This variety is one of the few singled out by A&M as recommended for your area (along w/ Pink Lady). Your main concern is fireblight, as Braeburn is susceptible. I recommend that you treat all your apple trees with antibiotics in the spring in addition to your other spraying duties, and you should be just fine. After all, the American Rose Society is in your backyard and their gardens flouish! Be aware that your Braeburn is a triploid, meaning that it needs pollination and cannot pollinate. I think that the other two can take care of it as well as each other, but make sure that they're all in bloom together for at least a week or so. If not, you may need to bring in another variety for that purpose. Also, don't dismay if the Braeburn doesn't take off quite so fast as the others, as it is a non-vigorous variety. To avoid biennial tendencies, you'll need to thin your Braeburn, as it tends to put on an excessive crop. You should be picking a few apples year after next.

Although Braeburn is near the top of my favorites list, I don't have any in my orchard, but I don't know why. I'll fix that soon enough! And, yes, Stark Bros. sends out very nice plants as you now know. Misterbaby.

I'm not sure I'd take the University rec over Ed's but I sure hope there's some problem in Indiana that doesn't exist in Lousiana. I'm always uncomfortable when I'm not speaking from my own experience.

I'm pretty sure you're mistaken about Brae being a triploid- all the varieties I know to be are exceptionally vigorous and Brae is quite the opposite as you mention. Also Seedsavers Exchange call it partially self fruitful which suggests diploid to me. Plus none of my commercial tree sources ever mentioned it that I noticed. Guess I'll look it up.

Trees of Antiquity goes out of their way to call Braeburn a triploid, but elsewhere it ranges from self-fruitful to partially so. I guess it really doesn't matter so long as John doesn't rely on it to pollinate the other two. Also, Indiana's growing conditions are vastly different from John's, so I remain comfortable with A&M's rec and the fact that the tree is already in the ground. Misterbaby.

Mr. B, well, so much for my being pretty sure. As you probably know, you're quite correct and I'm surprised to learn Brae to be a triploid. I'm also surprised how much time it took me to find out on-line but I finally got it. Better than waiting to be corrected by someone else, I guess, but when am I going to learn to research first, post second!

Mister Baby and Harvestman, sure appreciate your comeback, I've learned alot from reading your posts. Now, I looked at some pollinating charts before I bought the trees and found that all my trees were suitable to pollinate each other. So, I went back and looked again and saw the same thing. But, Trees of Antiquity says point blank what you said, sterile pollen from Braeburn. I have a Brae, Fuji, Goldrush and Crabapple side by side. I also have a Brae and Pink Lady about 100 yards away side by side. Reckon the bees will spot the 2 isolated apple trees or should I stick another Goldrush over there by the Pink Lady for insurance?

No, stick it over their for more Goldrush apples! Kidding, I actually like Pink Lady just as much, I love its distinctive texture and only just found it could be ripened here in an average summer. It's probably even better down there though.

I'd plant a Newtown Pippon or something you can cook for pollination. Do people grow Granny Smith down there, cause it sure can benefit from the long growing season.

There is also a nursery in Iowa which has trees on G16
rootstock (and many others). You can find their POME Nursery
catalog on the internet:

www.pomenursery.com

They specialize exclusively in pome fruit...apples
and pears. It is best to email them. They have many more
choices than are listed in the catalog.

Here is a link that might be useful: POME Nursery

John, the Harvestman, as always, makes a good point. You may wish to diversify your holdings. Since you trade with Stark Bros., consider waiting until the end of the season when they have a really fine fire sale. You'll get a tabloid flyer in the mail, from which I'll bet you can't order just one tree. This is addictive to the point where we may wish to start a support group. Misterbaby.

Thanks Mr Baby and Harvestman, you've been most helpful. Guess i do not need to "stick" another tree in the ground for pollination. Found this at Naturehills.com:

Pink Ladyî Apple, which is also known as the Cripps Pink variety, is a new hot climate apple from Western Australia. Pink Lady is a very good apple for those of you south of the Mason-Dixon line. It is a large apple with a pink blush over a yellow undertone with no russetting. The flesh is creamy and crisp. The flesh resists browning when cut. It has a sweet-tart taste similar to, but generally rated better than Granny Smith. Pink Ladyî (Cripps Pink Variety) maturity date is 10-15 days after Granny Smiths. This apple tree does not need a pollinator. Pink Ladyî (Cripps Pink Variety)\ will not mature properly in USA in zone 5, due to low autumn temperatures.>>>

Much relieved down here in the deep south! I didn't know some apples were self fruitful. Looks like I have a tree with all the characteristics of Granny Smith, and better. Harvestman, I've never seen a Granny growing down here, but I've seen them in local nurseries for sale. Mr Baby, thanx for the heads-up on this tree, looks to be perfect for my little tiny orchard!

John, I'm glad things are unfolding nicely for you. While a given apple tree may be described as self-fruitful, it will surely benefit from a pollinator. Further, any orchard will benefit from diversity. Some highly respected botanists elevate the importance of diversity to the cult level. Accordingly, I amen the Harvestman's suggestion of a G'Smith. So do A&M, who place G'Smith on their short list right next to the Pink Lady. This is not a total shocker as the former is believed to be a parent of the latter. Misterbaby.

NEWS BULLETIN: HARVESTMAN VINDICATED IN BRAEBURN SQUABBLE

After some rather extensive investigation, I accumulated enough evidence to approach Trees of Antiquity about their claim that Braeburn is a triploid. They responded, "The tree does not exhibit the characteristics of a triploid so it's not clear why it was ever considered(by previous owners). I'll get our site to reflect the prevailing opinion on Braeburn." Good people, TOA. I'm always a thousand percent satisfied with my purchases from them and their fine customer service. As expected, they were fast and responsive to this issue.

This all means that John no longer is under pressure to plant an "insurance" tree, although I would still like to see him diversify his holdings. It also means that it's my turn to eat some coddling moth doo-doo(When am I going to research first, post second?) And, finally, it means that the Harvestman's gracious exercise in humility was just that--good practice for the next issue. Again, special thanks to TOA! Misterbaby.

Well this is very interesting. I did find one source on the internet that said Braeburn is a triploid. Don't know now what the source was but it seemed like a credible one at the time. However, every "other" triploid I'm aware of has big dark leaves and is real vigorous.

On another subject, Pink Lady is actually a real good apple up in my Z6 neck of the woods and Granny Smith can't properly ripen here, so go figure. Not that they don't grow Granny around here but it usually tastes chalky and green even if you wait to mid-Nov. to pick it.

H-man, I wired Maple Valley today and they, too, will be revising their website to show Braeburn as a diploid. Misterbaby.

In my research of Kansas and Ozark apples I found several constant mentions - Huntsman, Missouri Pippin, Ben Davis, Rawles Janet, Gilpin, Jonathan, Swaar, Tolman Sweet, Esopus Spitzenburgh and Baldwin. I can attest to Huntsman and Missouri Pippin being an excellent choice in the Eastern Kansas/Ozarks Region (our family has land in both areas) - the trees we have produced on M111 by year 3. Arkansas Black is one I'd add to the list - ours have produced consistantly. Hope that helps, Rick