Doesn't there have to be some kind of rationing (although that's not exactly the term I'd like to use) is we had a national health care system? Otherwise the costs would just spiral completely out of control. But come to think about it, there is rationing right now. If you've got a $2200 deductible, like Ive got before you're health care benefits kick in, you do think about just when you're going to go to the doctor. And even if the insurance company is paying, there are things they'll pay for & things they won't pay for. At least with national health everyone has health insurance which is more than we can say now.

Blue Heron, what utter rubbish! Do you actually believe that the British pull the plug on dialysis and let people simply die when they hit seventy? Did your friend also tell you that the earth is flat?

What are you smoking?

It is true that there is rationing now.

I think there shouldn't be a profit on top of health care costs. It's so expensive as it is and to add a profit on top of that, it makes the costs prohibiitive.

My friend's daughter got blood poisoning from a cat bite and had to be in the hospital for a couple of days. She is a single woman and has a high deductible ($5,000) which she can afford to pay, but many people couldn't. Since hospitals can't refuse to treat people, there is a lot of cost shifting when they treat indigent people and you and I end up paying for their care. A Single-Payer System would eliminate that sort of cost-shifting. Everybody should have an automatic deduction for health care, like they do social security.

Health care is so expensive that employers are saying that health care is a perk, not an automatic benefit. Scary.

IMHO all these anti-national health care tales are put out by the insurance cos. They stand to lose everything if this country adopted national health care.

We had a friend who had to spend a few months in a
London hospital. He kept an interesting journal about it.

I hate to think about a National Health Plan here but
it's coming soon.

Blue Heron, what exactly do you mean by rationing? And everyone who can't afford treatment is not indigent. Do you think there are no working poor in this country?

I don't know what your friend's journal had say about the British National Health system, Janis. I'd like to share the journal for my father's last experience with the British National Health System. But does anyone think what we have now is even humane?

1.15 am. Father has severe back pains - my mother calls the doctor.

1.35 am. Doctor at house. He calls for an ambulance.

1.50. am. Ambulance arrives, takes my father to the hospital where he is diagnosed with an aortic anuryism and emrgency surgery is performed.

7 pm (UK time). My brother calls me in the USA and says Dad has a 50/50 chance of a good recovery. I fly home.

Despite a successful surgery my father is unable to breathe on his own - despite his advanced years (almost 81) he gets aggressive treatment because despite his advanced years the doctors believe he is essentially a fit man and his heart is strong and they do not want to give up on him.

Seven days later his kidneys begin to fail and it's clear my Dad is losing the battle. The attending doctor and the the surgeon both sit down with the family and explain the situation that they do not believe my father can recover. My mother makes the decision to remove life support.

It didn't cost the family a penny. Sure, Dad didn't have a private room and the intensive care ward he was in wasn't too fancy, but medical skill, care and compassion were there in abundance.

National Health is not perfect by any means, it's often tough to fight your way through the red tape and it's not actually free, the British pay high taxes.

I agree. My dd and sil used that system and the care they received was excellent, timely and appropriate. Another extended family member has had some very advanced and cutting edge treatment the last couple years and I can only imagine the headaches he'd have received under the type of private insurance typical here anymore.

Here's the thing. Nobody in Great Britain or the commonwealth countries is obliged to use the public healthcare system. They are quite welcome to buy private health insurance and use it. In fact I hear a lot of encouragement by the government for people to do just that. They carp and gripe about their health care systems just like we do, lol. It's human nature and has something to do with the grass being greener and all that. The thing is, however, if one works one is covered........and that is something we used to automatically assume here and it just isn't the case anymore. Jobs where the employer cover health insurance are not commonplace. Jobs where employers have a policy you can contribute to are becoming less commonplace as well. You are being asked to pick up more of the expense, and are becoming increasingly limited to your coverage at the same time, through provider networks and pre-certification. I know a little about that stuff, because I was in the vanguard of health care professionals who did it and did review on it when it started to come into its own. If that isn't 'rationing', what is?

If you are upper class here, or indigent, your medical care is covered. If you are working class, it would be really funny if it weren't such a tragedy. I went to work for a box store a year ago, part time to get "health insurance", because my rates under a group plan on Cobra were astronomical even though I hadn't had a claim in years and am in good health. I found out what they called an insurance policy was worse in my opinion than no policy, because of the caps. One routine surgery like a tonsilectomy would have taken all the benefits for a year. I didn't have a problem figuring out the holes in the policy because of my background, but many people would have thought they had something of value.

I have private coverage now, something a lot of self-employed people like me must do to have coverage. It's a high deductable like Andie's. It's not exhorbitant, but it's not cheap either. My taxes, however, pay for other people's insurance who don't work, and I'm sorry I have a hard time not being a little ticked at the inequity of that situation.

It's a crisis now, and bankrupts a large number of decent working people every year who could not conceivably ever save enough money for any type of medical emergency. I don't have a problem with triaging health care so that elective stuff waits awhile, if it means a fair shake for common people. If you don't want to live under that system, then buy a policy of your own. Higher taxes? Prolly, but when health insurance approaches five figures a year for a policy, then it'll likely be cheaper in the long run.

Sheila, it has been ages since I read it but he just kept a daily journal, I remember that it was very interesting.

I'd echo Sheila's comments: my elderly parents are receiving excellent care under the NHS. My mother, 79 (well past your alleged 'cut-off' point for ending dialysis for example) went along for her regular 6 monthly check up last month after knee replacement surgery several years ago. She reported that she was experiencing severe back pains. Nothing to do with the knees, but the doctor was concerned enough to arrange for her to have an immediate MRI and full blood workup.

My father, with angina, and 15 years after quintuple by-pass surgery under the NHS, is well cared for, regularly monitored, and well-medicated.

You can find plenty of negative stories of the NHS if you look for them, but they get reported because the British are justly proud of their health service and WANT to ensure it is good, efficient and cares for all.

Europeans consider access for all to healthcare as the mark of a civilised society. The set-up here in the US is one of the key reasons, I believe, that Europeans have a somewhat jaundiced view of us. One the one hand, we are keen supporters of human rights, yet we condemn people to bankruptcy because they cannot afford their healthcare. To a European, this dichotomy is incomprehensible.

Well said Sarah.

Yes and I remember a conversation with a Hospice nurse that was caring for my uncle. She was from Ireland and stated "You American's are more humane to your animals."

Sara...sorry about the h I added to your name.

Husky..I don't think I'd agree with that statement. We have some major problems in our heath care system which need to be addressed and some of these issues are daunting,but no,I wouldn't say most Americans care more about animals than people.

I'd agree: but I think Husky's conversation with the Irish nurse perfectly illustrates the perception Europeans have of our health care arrangements.

(M. - don't worry about the 'h', it happens all the time;) )

Excellent point, Sara.

I remember when Hillary Clinton chaired an committee on health care and the whole idea was shot down by the AMA, insurance companies, and the Republicans. Just think, we could have had a health care system in place by now if Congress would have taken the idea seriously.

It's an idea whose time has come, too bad we had to wait until the Democrats took control of Congress to get moving on it again.

Don't know why the Republicans HATE any kind of social program. Imagine if they would have killed social security or medicare! I shudder to think what the country would be like if we didn't have those two benefits.

So, blue heron, do you still think your friend is right, that the British take people off dialysis when they turn 70?

Since you began this thread with that contention if you no longer believe that I think it would be appropriate to say so.

Blueheron never said what she believed. She only said what she heard from a friend, and asked us if we thought it was true. I must be missing something,although not for the first time.

No, you're right Marda, blue heron didn't say she thought it was true. I guess what I should really asking is did she get enough feedback to determine if she thinks it's true or not.

Thank you, Marda, for the shoutout. I couldn't understand why I was the target of such animosity!

I'll take their word for it that it's not true.

I have personal experience of the National Health Service in Scotland which is slightly different from NHS England. For the past eight years, when I was diagnosed with cardiovascular problems to add to my diabetes I have been very well looked after by the NHS. My pacemaker, cryogenic and laser eye surgery were all free at the point of delivery as is my medication. I cannot speak too highly of our NHS, certainly you may find you have to share a ward with other patients and you may wait longer for appointments, but I have been treated to a very high standard and with great courtesy by the staff of our HHS.

Actually I was talking about end of life issues.

Well then,I would have to agree.