Aimee,

You are a SPECTACULAR photographer! That first picture of Mortimer Sackler brought tears to my eyes...and the rest weren't bad either.

Cath

Well Hey, Aimee - just having the energy to drag your exhausted self to a PC, never mind grubbing about in soil! Twins!!!! Should I be offering a degree of sympathy as well as heaps of heartfelt congrats?
Hang in there, girl - at least the infants will amuse each other for the odd few seconds (eventually).
I confess to murdering every green thing during my years as a parent of babies and children but I will be making amends with my grandchild, who has her own onion hoe and tiny trowel.
Sharing a garden with children is (mostly) a pleasure.

Wonderful photos. Lovely roses.

Ditto Campanula's remarks. The thought of twins delights and exhausts me!
I love the photo of Archduke Charles. I can understand why you call him beloved.
I'm afraid I have no advice to give about Lady Banks. Perhaps this will be her year to "leap" as in "first year sleep, second year creep, third year leap"??
Keep hanging in there!

Anne

As to the banksia -- here, many roses are slow to "leap."

Our R. banksia lutea arrived as a big, ugly, hacked-off stump of half of a very old plant -- as a gift from an elderly lady who was moving from her home. She'd originally received it when she was younger, from another elderly lady who had grown it for decades.

We stuck in it a squat, and stuck it in the ground, thinking that if it grew, it could be trained along the wood fence behind it. It sat there, doing nothing much for at least 3 years. When it had enough roots into the ground, it took off like a jet, shooting up the fence, then leaping into the nearby ficus trees.

Now, it waves a yellow banner, way up above the tree, and drapes a swags of bloom into the dark area under the tree. And because our climate is so mild, it blooms here, off and on through most of the year. And, every time I look at it, I think of the person who gave it to us.

Jeri

Aimeekitty - just curious - which Lady Banks is it? The double yellow? The double white or the single white?

When you planted it, was it in a band, in a pot, or what?

Did it grow any small canes, does it have leaves? I would seriously just leave it alone for at least another year, and feed it and tell it it is beautiful. As a matter of fact, I would feed it NOW in your zone - mine starts blooming every Feb. As I recall, my Banksia lutea took a few years to do much, and it then got huge (see pic).

I also had your experience with a rooted cutting of Belle Portugaise I planted - 4 years, lots of growth but no blooms whatsoever. I inquired on here, and everyone told me to feed it and wait. Wow! Its FIFTH Spring it burst into the most amazing bloom! was I glad that I waited!

You are in the exact correct climate for it, and I presume it gets a lot of sun - it should do well eventually. Please do wait, and then let us know.

Jackie

Sigh.

Congratulations on the twins, how wonderful for you!

I'm very impressed with your Valencia. It is a rose I have considered planting. Perhaps one day I will. Your picture is inspiring, as is your comment that it blooms all the time.

In your place I would give the Lady Banks the spring and summer of 2013 to wake up and grow, but no longer than that. Once in a while you get a rose that for some reason simply won't do anything. If it is still just sitting there in the fall, then I would try another plant of Lady Banks. I'm sure it would be less sulky.

Rosefolly

Aimee, the combination of hard compaction for seismic stability and the need of the plant to put out a massive root system BEFORE it pushes a lot of new growth, make results from your Banksiae plants a slow process. They aren't going to push new growth until they have "feet" under them. That hard packed soil you have to deal with will slow that down greatly. It WILL happen...eventually. Starting over with new plants will probably just set you back longer until they develop the support system they require. It's your choice, but the physiology of the plants is they require the appropriate root system FIRST. Having to find their way through soil which was required by law to be compacted to probably a 98 percentile so it won't slide or shake too much when an earthquake hits makes that take just that much longer. Trees and large shrubs will also take longer to develop for the same reason. Traditional "bush" type roses won't because they don't need as large root systems under them to perform. Putting a bush and a Banksiae in the same size hole will result in the bush taking off and the Banksiae appearing to just sit there.

If you want to start over, prepare greatly larger holes for the Banksiae. As they are going to want to be tremendously larger plants than your bush roses, they're going to perform more as expected in appropriately larger holes. That compacted soil acts like a bucket, trapping water and preventing it from freely flowing through it, so your drainage is often going to be an issue. When I worked at the nursery up in your neck of the woods, we supplied the City with many of their street trees. It was COMMON for people to come in to select their street tree replacements for trees which rotted out because of being planted in compacted soil. It has to be watered daily to support the sod and that water runs into the planting holes where it's trapped and often drowns the trees and shrubs. But, at least your house is going to be better protected in the next earthquake. Thank the State of California for that. ALL new construction has had that State seismic requirement for quite a number of years now. I had to always ask how old a customer's house was before I could advise them what might work in their yards. What will flourish in the fifty year old Old Orchard neighborhood with their sandy soil probably won't work in your much newer, compacted hillside community. Kim

My Lady Banks rose (double white) was planted maybe 2 years ago and it is taking some time to grow. It is planted in a sort of funny place where the roots don't get much sun but the rest of it is growing on a pergola which is very sunny. I have grown this plant before and it goes crazy in my climate (the one rose most non-rose growers think is the only rose that will grow in the desert -- groan!). So, I'm thinking it must just take awhile to become established. I do have patience with climbers as most seem to take 3-4 years to begin to bloom at all.

I have had Mrs Herbert Stevens in the ground for 4 years or so now, and it is just now beginning to bloom. I'm glad I waited as the blooms are beautiful.

I also love my Archduke Charles; one of my favorite roses. Just a wonderful, easy rose. Love, love , love it.

TWINS: Double Trouble, Double Delight!
I hope you're managing; congratulations! Babies are miraculous.
Melissa

I'm with Anne, *sigh*! Only in my dreams!

Seil, sorry about that - I don't think banksia lutea can grow in your zone. However, Anne - you should be able to grow it with no problem if you want to - you are in the same area and zone that I am. In fact, most of the nurseries around here actually stock it, it is so good for this area. Just plant it at the bottom of a South facing wall, and stand back.

Jackie

I'm afraid my south facing wall can accommodate a "mannerly" climber. Our house is a typical small, suburban, post-war ranch. Lady Banks would swallow it up, I'm sure! So, I will have to love her from afar :-)

Cath, thanks so much! I think it's more the camera having a nice depth of field than me. :)

campanula:
I'm aBLE to use the computer (or smart phone) while I care for them in small bursts :)
they are definitely a lot of work, but very cute when they are not crying. I look forward to when they are old enough to entertain each other. Right now they are just old enough to get very amused when I make eye contact with them, but they aren't really aware of each other that much yet. :)
I gardened with my mom when I was little, so I hope that they will enjoy it on some level too.

mendocino- thankyou!!

Rosefolly - my Valencia, it is truly one of the best HT's if not the best I have in my yard. It blooms a lot and is gorgeous. Highly recommend.

Anne, Archduke blooms a lot, too and I love how it's flowers change colors. :)

Jeri and Jackie and Kim,
Thanks for the encouragement with lady banks�
My lady banks is the double yellow one, not that i"ve seen many of it's blooms �.
it has leaves, but it hasn't grown any new canes, or very few if any.
It gets lots of sun.
When it was planted it was in a pot from the nursery. My main concern was as Kim said,� that it wasn't planted well when planted and the soil around it is compacted. But perhaps it is growing beneath the surface (slowly) and I"m not aware.

I'll dig out my fertilizers and feed the whole batch then next weekend while husband is watching the babies! I suppose I'll give it another year or so! I really wish the landscapers had dug out and loosened the soil as I asked them to when we started the garden. I should have paid attention better, but I was ignorant! Now it feels like it's largely too late, but at least most of the roses do well.

Aimeekitty - so glad you are going to wait for your banksia lutea for another year or so - I think you will be rewarded. Two of the reasons I love, love this rose (there are many more) is that it is really, truly, 100% thornless, and the canes are very flexible, so it is easy to train.

Kim, thanks for the explanation - I had no idea that the State's seismic requirements were goofing up the plantings, but it certainly makes sense.

Anne, I do see what you mean. Just so you know, there is a Safeway in San Rafael where they have little planting beds with small metal trellises (with very strong metal frames - I think they are there to prevent the cars going into the street) in front of all of the parking spots facing the street - maybe 12 in a row. The trellises are perhaps 3 feet wide and only 2 feet high. Over 15 years ago they planted a banksia lutea bush in each of these small beds! The rose bushes are still growing there - needless to say they are pruned ferociously to stay on their trellises! They even do bloom, although not as much as they would if they were not in bondage. If they stopped pruning them, I think it would only take one season before they ate half of the parking lot.

So, I applaud you for wanting to put the "right rose in the right place", but wanted to say that banksia lutea can be kept in bounds if pruned - as it has no thorns, that helps too. I must admit, however, that it is rampant on the South side of our 3 story house. Once when my DH was up on a 30 foot ladder pruning it and tying it up, he started laughing and insisted that I climb up the ladder to look at where it was coming through the roof! Sure enough, having grown all the way up 3 stories, one cane had followed the plumbing vent up through the soffit, and then went through the roof jack up about 18 inches above the roof, where it was blooming happily!

Jackie

You're welcome Jackie. Unfortunately, when we give advice to folks here in California now, we'll need to ask how old their construction is, not just where they are located. If it's less than about twenty years old, it's likely they are dealing with some level of seismic compaction. The newer the construction, the higher the compaction percentage as the percentage of compaction has increased over the years. If it's custom built, perhaps only the house pad was compacted to that density. If it's a tract, everything has that compaction, at least here in the Los Angeles, Ventura, San Bernardino and Riverside Counties areas that I've encountered.

Up in Northbridge, in the Santa Clarita Valley, they shaved off the tops of the mesas and built on the red sandstone. Getting Banksiae, Pandorea and Wisteria to grow there was a real chore! Once the houses were built, about six inches of "top soil" was spread everywhere with sod laid on it. Trees were planted in holes drilled into it and many drowned. Keeping the sod alive requires daily watering, like growing turf hydroponically. All the lawns contain drains because any water in the turf runs off as it has no way to soak into soil containing virtually no air space. None of the vines did anything until nearly a year of being fed a 50-50 mix of all purpose organics with Gro Power Plus every month of the year. I began taking care of that garden in its sixth year. Year seven was when the vines took off. Most of the vine and tree roots came to the surface, the only place there was any oxygen, and ran under the sod. Once they really started growing, planting anything else in that soil was nearly impossible. The front yard was the worst. Everything drained down to the public sidewalk where it had no where to go but up and over the concrete. It almost appeared as if there was a broken water main due to the constant weeping across it. There wasn't. It was all irrigation which couldn't seep into the compacted soil. The front walks were lined with Icebergs, which did OK until you reached the lowest end by the public sidewalk. There, the soil soured and the bushes lasted just a few months before they completely drowned. The only cures were either to install French drains (rejected due to cost) or plant the end Icebergs in large pots set on the ground, like using raised beds to help alleviate chronic drainage issues. The pots were heavy foam which looked like concrete and they did their job for several years before requiring replacement.

It's really the pits having to excavate huge holes under larger plantings, then installing the plants on a mound where, even after settling, the crowns remain above the soil level where they stand better chances of not drowning. In those conditions, you never want to add any organic material to the planting holes. When organics sit under water, anaerobic bacteria grow and the organics sour. Hydrogen sulfide is created (the soured diaper smell when a pot stops draining) and the plants die. Simply loosening the severely compacted soil and refilling the hole with a large mound over it, then planting the tree, shrub or large rose in the mound and mulching the surface of the soil only, is the safest method. At least in that way, the deeper roots can make use of the trapped water (which they do naturally, anyway) without the soil souring. Feeder roots spread out under the sod and mulch making it difficult to plant anything once there is a dense root mat under everything, but at least the desired plants can be successfully grown. White Birch and California Pepper trees are two of the worst in these situations and what many opt for because of their "beauty". Both have extreme root systems and quickly make use of every particle of "top soil" and every inch of possible root spread. My experience is most people love annuals planted around their Birches. After just a few years, that is an impossibility due to the extreme root mass. Even putting pots under them fails quickly due to the extreme invasion of tree roots, unless they can be maintained completely off the soil with no soil wash out through the drain holes. If there is ANY way for the tree roots to enter the pots, they WILL, very quickly! Kim

Jackie, I love that story of your lady banks--what a sight to be seen! I think you have the garden of very BIG plants! I've never heard of the tree you mention in the GH planting thread but the picture is great especially with a person to show perspective.

As far as keeping LB in bounds, I will have to think about it. Being thornless helps a lot, huh?!

Kim, I put a big 1/2 barrel with a White Meilland in it next to my parkway tree and it looked grand for a few years. One year, I went to plant some annuals to fill in the bare spots and could not even get through the fierce mat of tree roots surrounding the rose. It happened very fast.

My friend in a newer house in Corona fights these issues all the time. The best luck he has had is planting in big containers with drip irrigation. The roots come out the bottom and drink up the standing water. He installed french drains for the rest. When I go there I see the irrigation water running off the sod and over the sidewalks to the gutters all the time. Now everyone is on water restrictions so the days of constantly watering the sod is over. Planting in raised beds is the way to go. His best bed is a raised bed that has the shade of a southern wall for the first 15 inches in summer that keeps the roots cool. At that house is a very happy cecile brunner which gets the lawn run off but high enough due to a retaining wall not to sit in the soup.

Yes ma'am, Kitty. Been there too many times. For a client in Stevenson Ranch, who is sitting on that 'stone' with an enormous birch in her front yard, I placed large stones around the tree and lined a large bowl they made with four layers of the heaviest black plastic sheeting I could find. I made sure there were no holes in it for drainage, then filled it with potting soil and planted the appropriate annuals in it. I knew her sprinklers, which go off daily, would keep them watered and the aridity and wind would prevent the bowl from souring. It worked perfectly for nearly one summer. The soil washed around the edges of the plastic and down the sides between it and the stones. Birch roots found it, grew over the edges of the plastic and actually punched holes through the sheets. I have to rip it all apart and redo it every season, three times a year, to eliminate the tree root invasion.

Her neighbors decided they wanted a walled front garden. The builder actually contoured the front lawns so there were berms separating them as part of the drainage. The most successful trees are those originally planted on the tops of those berms so the tree crowns remain above the mud. This was fouled up by the addition of the wall and it left a pile of dirt on her side of the wall, which I piled up against the foot of it and kept in place with more river stones. It only took that birch one summer to so densely infiltrate that small bank that NOTHING can be planted it in that isn't already there. The sod is constantly squishy from irrigation. My shoes are soaked every time I walk through those lawns, whether the sprinklers have run yet or not. Her Marathon II begins discoloring if the sprinklers aren't run daily if there is any heat or wind.

Roses which were planted in that garden ten years ago are already declining due to being strangled by tree roots. Replacing them nearly requires mechanical assistance. Two years ago, her front water line burst. The plumbers complained bitterly about the difficulty of digging everything out because it was such a dense, tough, thick mat of root mass. You can see the large tree roots under her sod easily. I pity anyone buying any of those homes after a decade or longer, wanting to actually PLANT anything.

Her parents are across town in an older division. Their soil is very light, sandy loam which wasn't compacted as the homes were built in the sixties and seventies. That's the garden the large Annie Laurie McDowell grows in. I can easily, quickly and comfortably dig holes anywhere in that yard and get almost anything to succeed. Old Orchard WAS old fruit and nut orchards with many truck farms. Stevenson Ranch was canyons long seen as un buildable until everything was excavated, leveled and sculpted then compacted.

My old Newhall garden began as this.

Once construction pushed ahead, they discovered three ancient landslides under those slopes and had to excavate to a depth of sixty feet, mix the soil, then compact it to the state standard. Only the strongest weeds now take hold in that compacted soil. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: To this...

Kim, I wouldn't want to place bets about that soil staying still in a huge earthquake or really soggy winter. I have no trust in that - I've seen too much damage done in places where it was thought to be under control.

I don't remember what winter it was (89 - 93 or thereabouts), and I'm quite sure no soil involved had ever been compacted, but one wet winter, there was news footage of water coming down one of the canyons to the beach (Topanga? Sunset? Somewhere out there) A very wide and solid RIVER of water and mud was coming down the canyon road, crossing PCH and going THROUGH a house to then cross the beach and reach the waves.

Nobody in our family has ever forgotten that footage.

I remember that footage, minflick. IIRC, it was flowing beside the old Cosentino's Nursery location in Malibu they closed some years ago. It WAS a wall of mud, debris and water and frightening as could be. No, none of that was compacted soil, just virgin hillsides, super saturated by far too many inches of rain in far too few hours. Scary footage, for sure! Kim

Thank you, aimekitty for great pics. thanks, Kim, for that pic. of your Newhall garden, I think it's an oasis of beauty.