I found a 3rd map to confirm that England is mostly acidic soil, and the bottom southeast region of France is alkaline, so are a good portion of Italy and Spain.

It's more work to grow own-root Austin roses in alkaline soil, so I try to find other OGR that like my soil better. Thank you for your help.

Here is a link that might be useful: Soil pH in Europe

Why don't you just splurge on a lot of elephant repellent. Then at least you would know the roses are safe from that. It makes about as much sense as anything else.

The problem isn't the soil, it's the climate. The ONLY classes of roses that should have problems with the soil pH are multifloras and rugosas. Austins usually aren't bred from those classes, so they aren't going to have soil pH issues. They DO have serious growth issues here own-root. Those aren't soil related, they are climate related. They don't like the climate here. So they don't grow. It doesn't matter what the soil is like. They don't grow. They don't like the climate.

Thank you, mad_gallica, for an excellent point about Austin roses. The rose park nearby grows Austins on Dr. Huey, and these Austins have very few blooms compared to floribundas, Romanticas, or hybrid teas. Jackson & Perkins on Dr. Huey dominates the local market here in Lowe's and other local nurseries.

"Easy Elegance" series developed by Ping Lim at Bailey Nurseries in Minnesota are own-roots. My "Easy Elegance" shrub doesn't bloom on alkaline clay. So much for own-roots, that's why I seek for info. on OGR on own-roots.

mad_gallica makes a good point about climate suitability. I believe that's about half of the issue, with your soil suitability making up the other half. Even when all are on Dr. Huey, it will push more in a longer, more light and heat saturated climate with less cold damage and inhibition, than it will in yours.

A number of Austins are based upon Rugosa hybrids out of the Conrad Ferdinand Meyer line through Tamora, etc. That's where the intense rust that line enjoys arose. He's also used Ballerina which is very strongly multiflora as well as Iceberg (multiflora based) to create lines. Francine Austin came from Ballerina. Heritage and Dove are first generation Iceberg seedlings. There are 18 unique English roses considered second generation Iceberg seedlings; 17 third generation; and three fourth generation.

Conrad Ferdinand Meyer is first generation Rugosa hybrid, crossed with Cl Tea and HP. There are three, second generation crosses from him; eight third and two, fourth generation seedlings. None of this takes into consideration any of the "unknown" or "unnamed seedling" potential for either strains inclusion in his breeding lines. But, it is sufficient to consider that part of the issue could well be those lines just aren't suitable for the climate and soil, particularly own root.

On level playing fields of all being grown on the same common root stock, variations of performance would be more climate suitability based rather than soil type influence. I would suggest the majority of the floribundas, HTs and Romanticas you're observing in that park are budded on Dr. Huey. Romanticas primarily come from Star-Meilland and those are all on Huey. All of the J&P, Week's and Meilland HTs and floribundas obtained from those sources (unless they are more recent New Generation or Shrublets) there should be on Huey.

Meilland selected the Romanticas for more of the HT plant size and form, where Austin has traditionally selected for more of a Bourbon or HP plant type. Bush type Romanticas translate better as garden plants to longer, warmer growing seasons than many English roses do, for that reason. They are programmed to not require as much wood and foliage to produce their flowers than traditional English roses have been as there is mainly HT and floribunda behind most of the bush types, where many more larger shrubs and climbers have been used to create English roses in an effort to pick up the vigor for the harsher, colder English climate compared to where Meilland selected the Romanticas. Meilland's selections will often get larger here than they might where selected, but very few go from "mannerly 5' X 5' shrubs" as the Austin catalog stated for Graham Thomas, to nearly 20' climbers as he CAN here.

When you think about it, many Austin roses are basically "climbers in disguise". Most climbers perform best once they have sufficient roots to support large plants, something roses such as Golden Celebration, Graham Thomas, Abraham Darby, etc., aren't permitted when grown as bedding bushes. He has finally indicated in his catalog which may be grown successfully as climbers, but his selection for climbers is far from inclusive. I would suggest that many more could easily be grown, even in climates closer to your type, as pillar roses and shorter climbers, where they are permitted much more wood and foliage than they would be when grown as shrubs.

You've stated floribundas and minis are the better performers there, compared to the Austins, and that makes sense. For the most part, those two types have to produce much less vegetative growth to support flowering than the traditional Austin rose, and both traditionally have smaller flowers with fewer petals than the average Austin. Ironically, floribundas should have more multiflora basis then English roses, but are probably much further removed due to a century of breeding with HTs, minis and other types. One of the attractions to breeding with minis is their mania for flowering. Those combining both mini and floribunda, provided the variety in question has sufficient health and cold hardiness for your climate, I would think should be better suited to provide the performance you desire.

Out of curiosity, how does Scentimental perform there? It could be more prone to BS due to the Ferdinand Pichard and McGredy hand painted series genes. It may also be more prone to rust due to the Playboy influence. If rust isn't an issue, great. It IS here. Scentimental is one quarter mini, one quarter hand painted and one half traditional floribunda.

Also out of curiosity, which of the Easy Elegance roses do you have that won't bloom there? I wonder what type of soil it was tested on in Minnesota? Might it still be too young, or perhaps not receiving enough light or other resources? I'm interested in seeing what it's not liking in your climate and thinking it might be something in addition to the soil type and drainage. Has it remained healthy; does it show sufficient vigor, or does its growth seem inhibited? That series of rose is one of the more focused toward your growing conditions. It just seems odd that it wouldn't perform as reliably as the dreaded "modern roses". Kim

Thank you VERY MUCH, Kim - I appreciate your taking the time to further my understanding. If not for you, Kim, I would have given up and just buy more Knock-outs on Dr. Huey.

I have "Grandma's Blessings" Easy Elegance. It's loaded with blooms in the acidic pot from Home Depot. I planted in FULL SUN, and we have the most rain this year, over 40". It's planted before my 10 Austins, and gave me the least blooms. The leaves became chlorotic, then bronze in cool weather, and zero flowers after 1 month in the alkaline soil.

I figured out OWN-ROOT Austins: The worst-performers are ENGLISH OLD ROSE HYBRIDS, stated in the catalog as "they have much of the character of the true Old Roses ... the Gallicas, Damasks, etc." Examples are my wimpy William Shakespeare, Mary Rose, and Eglantyne. Others with less-blooming reputation in this group are: Jude the Obscure, Tea Clipper, and Gertrude Jekyll.

The second group of Austin is THE LEANDER GROUP, stated in the catalog as "leaning towards the Modern Roses in character ... form large, robust shrub" My translation of octopus arms. These do really well on my alkaline soil. I have Wise Portia, Golden Celebration, Radio Times, Pat Austin. I picked tons of blooms, enough to share with the neighbor. Pat Austin is the only one grafted on Dr. Huey, but the other own-roots caught up with her, and by fall, Golden Celebration gave me a 4" bloom like Pat when she first came as a band.

The third group of Austin is ENGLISH MUSK ROSES, stated as "bred by crossing our original Old Rose Hybrids with Noisette Roses." These tolerate my partial shade, and wet soil. I have: Lady Emma Hamilton in this group. I don't know which group Christopher Marlowe lands in (he's virused), and which group Mary Magdalene lands in (she blooms non-stop).

The worst performing own-root is my Easy Elegance Shrub developed from Minnesota. For OWN-ROOTS, Predfern from my Chicagoland area reported success with Romanticas, Generosa, then Austins, and last is OGR in terms of blooming.

Soil pH does play a part in blooming for Austins grafted on Dr. Huey. The Chicago Botanical Garden, 1 hour away, reported their pH is 7.4 with composted leaves. Their Austins perform well, and they have very few OGR. Cantigny Rose Park with over 1,000 rose bushes, 15 minutes from me, with more alkaline soil, has zero OGR, and their Austins have very few blooms.

Learning from Predfern and the rose park nearby, I'll take Romanticas over Austins anytime for my alkaline soil. Romanticas have triple the blooms, and better-looking more compact bush. Kim gave me a very good explanation of why. Thank you. I have zero experience with own-root OGR, and would like more info. on their performance in alkaline clay soil with pH above 7.5. Thank you in advance.

You're welcome! OK, Grandma's Blessings is an Iceberg seedling. Something sounds a bit odd about it. HMF lists that it's an 18" tall "Grandiflora". Did I understand correctly that it's only been in the ground for a month? That really isn't a very long time to base performance on, particularly at this time of year, in your climate and with 40" of rain. The chlorosis is a definite problem (and could be due to the high rainfall leaching out nitrogen combined with little available iron), but the bronze cool weather colors isn't necessarily an issue. Many varieties respond to drops in temperature and light reduction by bronzing. It could well mean the plant has partially reabsorbed the sap from the leaf, resulting in a sort of "autumn foliage" response.

If you're a premium member of HMF, look up the parentage trees of some of the offenders you've listed. William Shakespeare is bred from Mary Rose. WS supposedly has Gallica, Multiflora and HPs combined with modern roses behind it. The dark red color is based upon one of the most awful old, dark red HTs you can imagine, Chateau de Clos Vougeot. Gorgeous, fragrant flowers on a miserable plant. Eglantyne is "seedling" crossed with Mary Rose. Go figure. Here, Mary Rose is best budded.

Interesting that a prime difference in the back ground of The Old English Rose group and Pat is the inclusion of Iceberg. It appears the ones which do best for you include Graham Thomas and Golden Celebration in them, basically the 'climbers' in my climate.

The pH may play a part in English Rose performance there, but how different is the CLIMATE an hour from you compared to that of the garden fifteen minutes from you? An hour from here makes a world of difference in cold and heat as well as wind and sun intensity. I'm inland mountain with high coastal influence. An hour away is high desert to beach.

The OGR types I would expect to be best suited to your climate also seem the ones upon which the worst performing English roses are based upon. Teas seem well suited to high alkalinity based upon their performance here, but they are unsuited to your climate. I wonder what campanula's pH is? Perhaps she might give you some guidance about which OGRs tolerate alkalinity? Kim

Thank you, Roseseek, for the lineage info. of William Shakespeare and Eglantyne. I didn't know that's available for becoming a premium HMF member, one more reason to join!

My Easy Elegance "Grandma's Blessing" has been in the ground since May, leaves turned yellow within a month of planting. Six months of only 5 tiny blooms wasn't worth it. From University of Colorado extension, I found that phosphorus for blooms is tied up with magnesium and calcium in alkaline soil. My sticky clay soil tested very high in magnesium. I have many evergreen trees, including acidic white pines. I used to put acid fertilizer spikes around them, so they would produce pine cones for my kid to play with. I haven't done so in 5 years, and haven't seen a pine cone either. The trees are really tall, but zero pine cones. That's going to be the case with roses, really tall, but no flowers, if I don't use acid fertilizer.

My neighbor planted an oak tree, it died in our alkaline clay. Then he planted a Lombardy poplar tree, it grew to be sky-high. I did some searching in HMF and found that Louis Odier does well in alkaline soil, but I don't know if other fragrant favorites like Comte de Chambord, Yolande d'Aragon, Madame Plantier, and Felicite Parmentier will bloom at pH above 7.5. HMF helps me a lot, I will definitely pay the annual fee. John Moody from Missouri stated that he put acid fertilizer in his drip irrigation, and Austins don't do well for him either. He plants mostly hybrid teas. I can't do much hybrid teas since my zone 5a is too cold, so any recommendations on OGRs are greatly appreciated.

Several years ago Bailey Nursery was one of the vendors who sold most roses grafted on multiflora rootstock; that may have changed with their sale to someone else two years ago.

Re the general term OGR: at a meeting at Ashdown, I asked Peter Beales son about Beales nursery growing and maintaining the British collection of species roses. I asked specifically if some of them were grown on specific soils. The answer was that they grow the species roses along fence lines with no concern about the soils much less any concerns about pH.

I expect Beales has pretty great soils. I do see some major problems for some species roses that we've been growing on our dense clay knoll. Once I get some pH readings done on it, I'll tell you which roses haven't been happy there (really unhappy).

Oaks here (of course, different species) do quite well despite the alkalinity, even in heavy clay areas. I wonder if it was more the drainage than alkalinity with the oak? I'd expect the Poplar to flourish. They're intensely water seeking, so if there was an abundance, it would explode.

Thanks for clearing up the Easy Elegance misunderstanding. Yes, it does definitely sound as if that one wants different conditions. I wonder if it would improve with just changing the drainage? Kim

I wonder tho, Kim, about Chateau de Clos Vougeot. We find an old one surviving out at Camulos.
Its child, Prospero, does very well here.
That success has surprised me from the git-go, since the old red HPs are bad here, and CdCV should NOT do well -- and yet ...
Sometimes, I think, the roses just surprise you.
And sometimes, you just have to TRY things, and see what they do.
We can study every book, but the roses -- they don't read.

Jeri

Chateau de Clos Vougeot does so splendidly at Rancho Camulos because of the heat and aridity there. Even through 1908 eyes, this plant gives reluctant inches of growth annually. The color and fragrance are wonderful, but the plant is sparse and terribly prone to mildew and black spot. If you look up the term vigor, this rose's photo is provided to illustrate the antonym. But even where it is happier, it is nothing compared to deep red, Damask scented HTs introduced even twenty years later.

Prospero inherited a large dose of vigor from the other parents involved in its creation. Though it was as rusty as possible in my Granada Hills garden. Yes, roses surprise you, and they don't read, but the only reason Chateau de Clos Vougeot was selected for introduction was the color reminded Joseph Pernet of the color of a favorite wine. Chateau de Clos Vougeot was the name of the vineyard. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Vineyard of Chateau de Clos Vougeot

Another thing one can do on HMF is to find other gardens nearby. Then take a look at what they are growing, and if it is something you might be interested in, contact that HMF member and ask about how that rose is doing.

On the left side of the main page on HMF is the Garden tab. Click on that. Then across the top of the page will appear some more tabs from which you can choose:

Name Search, Alph. Lists, List by Location, etc.

Click on List by Location. Use the pull down menu to select the country (United States). Once that is done select your state (Illinois). Then you will get a list of gardens on HMF in Illinois. (Hopefully, yours is also among them.:) Because it is a good idea for all of us to have our roses listed on HMF.) With that Illinois list, peruse for those that might be closest to you or are in the same zone (if it is specified). Check some of them out and see what kinds of roses are being grown in these gardens. See if there are any patterns. Might be a clue as to how well a particular variety or class would do for you. You can always contact the HMF member and ask about the conditions in their garden as to soil, drainage, and water, as well as how/what they feed their roses.

Melissa

If the Floribundas at the park do well on Dr. Huey, I would consider Dr. Huey for Austins as well. The sparse blooms on their Austins might be due to their manner of tending the Austins, (such as pruning), and unrelated to soil ph or rootstock.

I grow pink, red, and apricot Austins, and they are hardy and vigorous for me. They don't repeat bloom as abundantly as Floribundas, however, and I grow Hybrid Teas to give color to the garden when the shrubs are resting.

Small own root plants can be difficult to get established in a cold zone. I prefer large own roots or grafted plants.

Thank you, Anntn, Kim, Jerjen, Melissa, and Krista for your help. That Easy Elegance rose is in a VERY WELL drained spot. I amended the soil with the wrong stuff, "Moo Manure" from HomeDepo, which tested as alkaline as baking soda, pH of 9. Green Thumb Organics Cow Manure from Indiana is acidic at pH of 4, I'll look for it next year.

Krista, you are right about their NOT pruning - since their spring flush is better than summer and fall. I agree that grafted is best for cold zone, since I can bury it 4" down, but not with own-roots. Edmumds' roses in Wisconsin is on Dr. Huey, only 3 hours from here, so I'll order from them. Attached is a link about different nurseries and different rootstocks.

David Austin wrote in his book, "The English Roses" that a new rose should not be planted in the same spot previously occupied by another rose. Michaelg answered my question that it doesn't apply to our soil here. That makes sense since Dr. Huey secrets acid - and in an acidic soil like England that would be too much.

Edmunds in Wisconsin offers mostly rugosa for OGR, so I'll take a chance and grow own-roots OGR that I like. From what reported in the Rose Forum, Regan nursery in Fremont, CA, does not deliver Dr. Huey's in May to cold zoners. I'll call them and check.

Here is a link that might be useful: Update on rootstock from Santa Clarita Valley

Strawberryhill, thanks for the link to rootstocks, good info there.

I really like Regan Nursery, have ordered from them a number of times. I request mid-April shipping, as their roses are dormant, or just breaking out of dormancy.

I love the Romantica roses with the Austins, they look great for a color burst with the pastel Austins.

The Austins do look their best in the spring flush, the repeat blooming is not as heavy.

Strawberryhill, thanks for directing people to Kathy's article. I grow Pink Clouds and it definitely roots quite easily. If you are interested in trying to bud your own, I'll be happy to send you some to root for postage. A word of background is probably in order. While it does root well and accepts buds easily, it is half multiflora and to my knowledge, has never undergone any virus testing or treatment. Though I've never observed symptoms on it, that is no proof of anything.

Mr. Moore introduced the rose back in 1956 and originally marketed it to compete with Ragged Robin for use as a rose hedge. Some time later, he discovered it was quite useful for creating miniature tree roses. If you've ever had a Sequoia mini tree, the roots and trunk were Pink Clouds. They found they could cut and disbud lengths of Pink Clouds, graft several mini grafts on the top of each stalk, then rubber band those of a variety together. They would place several bundles of grafted stalks together in a three pound coffee can which had holes punched through the side about an inch from the can bottom, under mist on an outdoor table. The table was surrounded by tall trees so it received somewhat filtered sun all day. In a short time, they had "instant mini trees" as the grafts took while the trunks rooted. These would be separated, potted individually and set back under mist or placed in one of the greenhouses until they developed and hardened for shipment.

In a pot of potting soil, there are no issues with Pink Clouds. On alkaline soil, it can go chlorotic unless properly amended. Several local rose people use it as their stock of choice. Burling (Burlington Roses) has used it to create standards from 18" to over 5', for many years. Kim

Thank you, Krista for info. on Regan nursery and Romanticas, much appreciated.

Thank you, Kim, for your kindness and generosity in giving me counsel. My project in the spring is to kill zillions of dandelions sprouting on the lawn, plus unwanted plants seeded from trees and perennials. My high magnesium soil and spring rain make everything sprout. The Orchids forum stated that epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) is only useful for seed germination, and nothing else as claimed.

If I convert more lawn to rose beds, it's actually less work and I don't have to spend $200 per year in professional lawn care like my neighbors. My alkaline clay soil at pH of 7.7 isn't that bad, some flowers like it that range. I just have to amend soil for roses like I did with rhododendrons and azaleas. Here are pics of my garden in July.

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You're welcome Stawberryhill. Your garden is lovely, btw. If you need to justify converting your lawn into garden, remind everyone that not only will you save the $200 a year (VERY cheap by SoCal standards! The old gardener here got paid $250 a month for doing virtually nothing!), but use much less water and none of the potential chemicals most turfs require. Plus, they're a whole lot prettier. I wish more HOAs here would get the spirit and plant climate appropriate plantings instead of acres of lawn. Kim

Thank you, Kim, for the compliment. $200 is for professional fertilizing per year, and $40 for mowning per week. My hubby cut the lawn, and I fertilize with a spreader (it's still $100 in Scotts' Weed & Feed per year).

I have so much fun joining HMF premium membership. I traced the lineage of the notorious Japanese Rose (The Mother of All Chlorosis Puck - Mrs. Rugosa) all the way down to her descendants, such as Elle, Maiden's Blush, Martin Frosbisher, John Cabot, and Kortesen. There are lots of German names in her descendants.

The Apothecary's Rose looks the most like the Japanese Rose, down to the leaves, its suckering habit, and the color and shape of the flower. I bypass that one. It's easier to buy the Damask spray that Lux recommended and spray on silk flowers, than putting up with another yellow dog in the yard. Kim, you have just saved me tons of watering a non-blooming rose by encouraging me to join HMF. THANK YOU!

Strawberryhill, when I lived in the Dallas area, I gardened on black land prairie clay with a ph of 8.2. I grew a few own root Austen roses (Graham Thomas, Peach Blossom, Constance Spry, Mary Rose, The Prince) without any problems. I also grew Madame Plantier (which you asked about earlier)in amended clay on the east side of my house. Madame Plantier did splendidly there. When I amended the soil, my goal was to add organic matter and improve drainage - I never worried about ph at all. The climate zone there was 8a, so much different than your climate.

Thank you, plantloverkat, for the encouraging info. I'm happy to hear about Madame Plantier - and what you mentioned are all hardy for my zone 5a. You are right about drainage: I will make lots of raised beds this coming spring. The pots that hold roses at Home Depo all have pine bark mulch mixed with potting soil, and some yellow pellets fertilizer - and roses are loaded in such medium. I haven't figured out what slow-released fertilizer they use for pots to get so much blooms. Thank you for any info.

My thanks to all you wonderful rose lovers. I appreciate the fact that you are taking the time to share all this important information.
This makes for interesting informative reading on a winter afternoon---
Thanks again--

Florence

You're welcome Strawberryhill! Welcome to HMF! There is a lot there to search and research and I know you'll have a ball! You really CAN learn a lot of what to expect from many roses simply by looking at what their breeding lines are. I KNOW the Conrad Ferdinand Meyer line of David Austin roses WILL rust in my area. Every one of them has, so I will avoid that breeding line, even though I love Tamora.

I KNOW that the majority of roses closely related to Playboy WILL rust here. Very few haven't. One which has been bullet proof here is Ralph Moore's, My Stars. That is a cross between Playboy and Basye's Legacy. My Lynnie has Basye's Legacy as her father and she's been exceptionally healthy everywhere I've ever had reports. Legacy transmits great health and vigor to its offspring. Also, every cross of Legacy, with ONE exception, I have grown has been rudely healthy. The exception was a cross with Loving Touch, a very pretty mini but one plagued with mildew here. The same holds true for anything closely related to Rugosa. With only three exceptions, every hybrid Rugosa I've grown in this climate had extreme foliage issues. My season is just too long and too hot with insufficient winter chill to make this type happy. Ironically, the good ones have been crosses between miniatures and Rugosa.

While not perfect, it has been very reliable in assisting me to avoid roses which wouldn't be happy here as no spray. It's also been very interesting and fun researching the "why" behind the issues I have wanted to avoid. Enjoy! Kim

Strawberryhill, You mentioned "Moo Manure". Last summer the magazine, Countryside, printed a warning to the effect that composted manure products were contaminated with herbicides. Apparently some organic farmers, who had bought those products in bulk suffered substantial damage to their crops. The allegedly composted manure I bought at Lowes last summer wasn't. Phew!

Is it possible that you might have unknowingly used an herbicide contaminated product on your Easy Elegance rose?

Thank you, Nastarana for that info. I like Lowes' bagged soil and manure (never have a problem there). The EarthGro topsoil from HomeDepo killed my peony this year (leaves turned brown, then died). Someone else besides me reported a very high pH for Moo Manure. Boiler's ash is used in many bagged soil products to impart that pitch-black color, plus wood ash raises pH.

Thank you, Kim, for the useful info. on lineage. I trace Rugosa descendants and found Double Knock-Out and Scentimental. Double Knock-out is LOADED in the acidic pot at the stores, but only gives a spring flush at the rose park. After that, it has very few blooms in the alkaline rose park, while my Single Knock-out is always loaded. Singing in the rain, a very double flower, is always loaded at the rose park - more so than Julia Child. Being double is not the issue here.

I'm glad to hear from Florence - she is so sweet and cheerful. Below is the link on boiler's ash in bagged soils: "Boiler Ash (bottom ash) from coal is the most commonly used toxic industrial waste in the Houston area. It is so alkaline it will chemically burn mulch black in a few days...Some producers sell products that use words like "Black" and "Humus" in their names. These products are often made from fresh pine bark fines, do not contain any humus, and are chemically burned to turn it black."

Here is a link that might be useful: Boiler's ash

Wow! Thank you, Strawberryhill, for that link. Yikes!

I grow lots of food crops as well as roses. I am actively researching cover crops and compost making from materials gathered on my lot--never enough, as well as remineralizing with azomite.

regardless of what the stats say on the soil maps, Strawbs, I can definately say my soil is alkaline - not as much as yours but rhodies and azaleas are a distant memory from my northern childhood - our black silty fen soil is top class for cabbages, celery and onions and sugar beet. Anyhow, unfortunately, I am not much of a guide to soil ph and roses since this is an issue which rarely comes up - at least not as much as mildew, rust or blackspot. The only dodgy roses (chlorotic, needing regular sequestrene) I grow have had too close a brush with rugosas - and one of my only Austins, Wild Edric is definately a pale and pasty specimen....although Compte de Champagne comes awfully close and I couldn't say what its parentage is. Annoying, as the rugosas are generally happy with well drained, sandy soil (I am on calcareous grassland. Of course, I do not have the extremes of temperature that you have so I have been able to adopt a blase attitude to ph as it is practically impossible to actually kill a rose here. Nonetheless, not dying is emphatically not the same as thriving - there are roses which are doing considerably better than others. I did expect china roses would be a bit feeble but have surprised me with their general willingness to grow and bloom - Sophie's Perpetual, Mutabilis and Sanguinea have been stars. Even more surprising, the infamous bourbons do well for me too. I would have to say that the majority of my roses are species or close hybrids although I have a weakness for Harkness floribundas. I am incredibly fortunate in that Beales and Trevor White (2 out of 3 old rose growers in the UK) along with Harkness and Legrice are based in East Anglia with similar soil and climate conditions as myself....and fervently believe that this conflation of conditions has a whopping bearing on the subsequent health of the rose once it is planted in my garden so I think you are right, Strawbs, in pondering specific nursery circumstances before considering buying from them.

I love campanule's style of writing. She is so well-versed and fluent that I like reading her stuff more than the Shakespeare class in college, "Hark, what light yonder ... Arise fair sun, and kill the envious moon..." That's all I can remember of that Shakespeare class, besides the comparison of Juliet's anatomy part to a bird's nest.

aaaah, bless! You are a sweetheart, Strawberry.