The three you ask about are all very fragrant and good bloomers, if you spray for blackspot.

Rootstock or no should have no effect on the expression of thorns or fragrance. The rootstock doesn't affect the genetics of the scion plant. As you know, fragrance varies greatly from hour to hour, day to day. Thorns can vary according to how fast a cane grew or how old it is. So coincidence probably accounts for your observations.

What Michael said. The only case I could think of to be made for increased vigor influencing fragrance and intensity of prickles would be if the rose, for whatever reason, wasn't sufficiently vigorous own root where it's being grown that it wouldn't have the resources to develop the characteristics and the stock provided it with what was needed for the natural expression to occur. But, it wouldn't seem logical that a stock would necessarily CAUSE such a change that wasn't already provided for by the plant's genetic "instructions". The documented instances where repeatable changes have been able to be induced through budding have been very rare. I remember reading one, in Modern Roses 8, where budding either Chrysler Imperial or Etoile de Holland, if I remember correctly (and it's been easily twenty years since I read it), on a specific root stock caused a repeatable change to climbing and lightening of flower color. But, in the vast majority of cases, this isn't something to look for as it isn't a common occurrence. There have been claims that improper bud selection could be replicated to induce rampant, non flowering HPs through budding. Kim

You know there just might be something to that.

I used to grow this wonderful little plant called Persian Violet (Exacum affine). It's a little rounded plant that covers itself with deep purple flowers that are lightly scented. One day I was throwing an old one out, and when I pulled it out of the pot, I noticed there was a lot of fragrance down around in the roots. It made me wonder if somehow the roots contributed to the plants fragrance.

Could that be happening with some roses?

Thank you, Michaelg, Kim, and Bellegallica for the info. All my Knock-outs were grafted on Dr. Huey. 4 of them became own-roots since Dr. Huey dissolved after being buried 8" deep in a wet clay "swimming pool" enclosed by plastic edging. Many shrubs and perennials died of wet-feet in that bed.

The only possibility I could think of is scents are manifested by utilization of particular elements in the soil. For example, when I dunked Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) into the vase of Radio Times, its scent went from Damask to sewage. SteveinAustralia reported that his Valencia scent went forth when he stopped using epsom salt.

Perhaps Dr. Huey is more proficient in picking up elements such as magnesium, sulfur and iron, thus interfere with the correct manifestation of the breed.

The thorns issue: Perhaps Dr. Huey is so vigorous, thus making the thorns vigorous as well. The first year I was delighted in Pat Austin (grafted) vigor compared to my other shrimpy own-roots. The second year I am annoyed by its vigor in thorns. Pat's big thorns make Radio Times' dense prickles really wimpy. Unfortunately Pat's vigor is limited to making thorns, she has only 6 buds compared to tiny Mary Magdalene with at least 20, and shorter Radio Times with a few dozen buds.

They sell OGR in body-bags really cheap at stores: Comte de Chambord, Paul Neyron, and Duchess de Brahant . I don't know how those turn out in terms of thorns compared to own-roots. For my own-roots: Comte de Chambord has really tiny prickles (much smaller than Austin). Marchesa Boccella is thornless. Christopher Marlowe is yellowish in my alkaline soil, but his prickles are really tiny. Sulfur didn't work, acid fertilizer for rhododrendrons didn't work. Finally I used Schultz's soluble fertilizer with triple the amount of iron. He turned dark green - so chlorosis on own-root I can fix, but I can't change the big thorns on Pat Austin.

Jay-Jay from the Netherlands posted a picture of Annie Laurie McDowell, completely red in foliage. He explained that it's cold and rainy there. I checked my Annie, she's sprouting a red leaf in our cold and rainy weather.

When I went to the alkaline rose park in cold fall, all hybrid teas lost their scent including Chrysler Imperial and Double Delight. That same day, I went to HomeDepo and smelled a great scent from Double-Pink Knockout, own-root in a tiny pot (acidic potting soil). Afterwards I went to sniff my neighbor's double-pink Knockout, and was disappointed.

I once read that more magnesium is released in the soil when the temp. dips. After my experience in digging up roots, Dr. Huey should be re-classified to tree-status, he can plow right through hardened clay, and send pipes to steal water from far away.

Fragrance can vary depending on season, time of day, and weather. Some of my roses have their best fragrance on warm sunny days.

My Perfume Delight is grafted on Dr. Huey, and it's quite fragrant to my nose.

Strawberryhill, what you wrote about Huey being elevated to tree status just answered the question why certain stocks are selected. Interesting about your Marchesa Boccella being thornless. I've grown it budded, never own root, since the early eighties. It was one of my first Roses of Yesterday and Today purchases because it is one of the few OGRs which performs like a floribunda with virtually no disease in these parts and I've never seen anything resembling a lack of prickles. It is PRICKLY, including many bristles all over the plant. Every plant I've ever encountered here and around the state have been. Kim

I also grow Marchesa Boccella. Purchased from Wayside 19 years ago, I *think* it might have been grafted on Manetti, but it is surely on its own roots now. Full of prickles. As is every other MB I have seen exhibited in NJ and PA, most of those have been own root. So, I will be interested in seeing how your plant develops.

Thank you, Krista, for info. about Perfume Delight as fragrant on Dr. Huey. I'll get that one. I didn't get Pink Peace since people here said it's not fragrant from Kmart & Walmart. Below is a picture of own-root band-size Marchesa Boccella. I don't see any thorns, but upon close inspection, I see tiny prickles, which can get larger as the plant grows.

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Below is a picture of Comte de Chambord, own-root, with larger thistles:

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And last is 100% thornless Paul Neyron, also own-root:
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But the most amazing picture is Annie Laurie McDowell, post by Jay-Jay in HMF. It has completely red foliage, like a sand-cherry bush. My 100% thornless Annie has green foliage from warm CA, but it's leafing out red new growth in my cold weather.

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Annie Laurie McDowell's new growth can be nearly cranberry in cooler weather. When she's happy, she can grow like a house fire! It's getting her momentum going that requires flower bud removal. But, she'll get there! Kim

Thank you, Kim, I'll debud her and move her to full-sun once the risk of frost is gone. I'll move my GRAFTED Pat Austin to that clay "swimming pool". I'll bury her 6" deep to ensure the death of Dr. Huey and the growth of own-root. I want to slow down her growth, so her thorns don't get larger. I already took pictures of Pat's thorns, to see if the future-own-root version would improve.

Own-root chlorosis on alkaline clay doesn't inferfere with flowering. Christopher Marlowe will always be pale, but he has at least 20 buds compared to Grafted-Pat's 6 buds. He gets much less sun than Pat.

Question: Once Pat is moved, I have a full sun, next to the house, southern exposure, sheltered from wind. Should I get own-root Yves Piaget this year for that spot, or should I wait until next year for a grafted Yves Piaget? I don't know how well Yves Piaget does as own-root in alkaline clay. He's low in thorns. Thank you for any info.

My almost thornless Marchesa Boccella is from Burlington Nursery in CA. At first I ordered Jacques Cartier, but after finding out that Marchesa Boccella is smaller, I changed my order. Her prickles are super-tiny. I like her since she stays dark green in alkaline water, and does well in partial shade.

Perhaps own-root's thorns are smaller since their growth is much slower, versus faster growth on gigantic Dr. Huey's root.

Cartier and Boccella were confused in the trade decades ago and it's been accepted that what is sold as both are the same rose. Ordering by either name will get you the same rose. My experience is Yves is miserable own root. Get a budded one. It roots miserably and has issues own root. Been there, won't do it again. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Jacques Cartier

Thank you, Kim, for answering both questions that I wonder about. Al, from my Chicagolan, grows a few Romanticas own-root successfully (Peter Mayle, Liv Tyler, Rouge Royal ..) EXCEPT for Yves Piaget.

I could not find a Mirandy as a body-bag here, so I got an own-root from Burlington. It's hopeless chlorotic (yellow for more than 1 month), and is best as grafted. ilovemysheltie in Chicago also reported miserable experience with own-root Hybrid teas.

My Lynnie gave her 1st bud - her deep pink color really brightens up the gloom here. She blooms despite our 30 to 35 degrees night temp, and patchy frosts. I love Lynnie for her glossy & healthy foliage, her red stem, and her brilliant pink color, which glows in sunny days too.

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Wonderful! Thank you. You're welcome. You will probably need to keep Mirandy potted in good soil to overcome the chlorosis, or amend the hole with a good camellia mix to acidify it long term. I share your appreciation for Lynnie's foliage. While not a cutting rose, nor anything most would "ooo! and ah!" over, she's just plain happy to be here and always pleases. It's rained for the past 24 hrs off and on, but this is how she looks right now with no care, not even weeding. All I do is water and use her for breeding new seedlings.
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She flowers like a weed.
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I love the bronze tones to her new foliage.
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If you have room and want to try something else hardy, disease resistant and not a rose you'll encounter everywhere, Robert Rippetoe's "Miracle on the Hudson" is a great one here.
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Here is a link that might be useful: Miracle on the Hudson