Nora, if I was close, I'd be there in a heartbeat!

Maybe wait for the soil test results to see what you have/don't have, before making any plans. If the soil is contaminated it may stop the project in it's tracks or take you in a different direction.

Good luck.

Lloyd

Thanks, Lloyd! From the descriptions you have shared about your farm and compost operation, I wish you were closer, too. I've always wanted to visit Canada, and your compost sounds like an excellent reason. :)

If the soil is contaminated, would my raised bed idea be unrealistic, too? I thought if the beds had wooden bottoms with some space in between, sort of like slats, then we would have drainage, and we could place the beds on top of some sort of weed suppressing fabric that allows water to go through, but would keep the bad "stuff" from coming into the beds. Would the fabric be necessary? I hoped worms would find their way into the raised beds through some of the spaces in the slats.

Another thought: would I be able to add worms to the raised beds I have described above? If they crawled out, oh well, but adding worms to the raised bed could help. Maybe?

Thanks, again!

cheers,
Nora

The land might be termed a "brownfield," meaning the site was an industrial facility at one time. I think that most of the pollutants from papermaking go into the air, or are discharged into the nearest river/stream. The soil might be OK, but it needs to be tested to confirm this. It will be hard to sell people the idea of using municipal compost in a garden used for growing food. Municipal compost is generally used on trees and lawns. The problem with testing municipal compost is that every batch could be unique. You would have to test every batch. One advantage of raised beds is that there is much less bending. We have a raised bed of blueberry shrubs near our driveway, & its easier to keep weeded, and easier to pick. This sounds like a big project. I hope it goes well.

I guess it all depends on what the contamination is (if there is in fact any contamination at all, there might not be).

Once the tests are done then I'd consider the different methods. I like the idea of a community affair and I'm sure there are some that are more than willing to help out. Spearheading the project is the tough part, leaders are hard to come by sometimes.

Lloyd

Thank you for your help!

Eric, I'll be sending my soil test to Madison. I live in the hometown of Kimberly Clark in the Fox Valley. Plenty of the paper mill pollution goes into the air, indeed. We were just smelling it this morning. :(

I agree, this project is a big one. :) I would be thrilled to have two 4x8 plots this year for the kids to plant.

I did a winter sowing project with 50 students, so we have 100 containers of flowers and cold season veggies, many of which are up and sprouting. :) Ideally, we will use many of these in the garden.

I understand your comments about leaders and spearheading projects, Lloyd. I think I am functioning under the "what I don't know can't hurt me" adage at the moment. :) I just feel so strongly about getting kids involved with gardening and community building through gardening seems vital and necessary, too. However, I do just love dirt, messing around in the earth, and watching things grow.

Again, I appreciate your comments and help. I am good about envisioning ideas, but envisioning the practicalities are not always my strong suit. This is helping me a great deal.

Nora

Removing 2,500 square feet of soil to a depth of 2 feet means you will need about 185 cubic yards of soil to replace that. You need to know who is going to dig up this soil, who is going to haul this soil away, who can supply that amount of soil, and who is going to spread the soil if you can get new?
Making many 4 x 4 raised beds about 5-1/2 (a 2 x 6) deep will be much easier and probably less costly and you more than likely would find soil for that much easier. However, look around your town for community gardens and talk with, and work with, those people to establish your communiity garden.

Installing and filling raised beds would be less expensive than digging, hauling away, and refilling ... it's easier and doesn't need heavy machinery.

If you can get used materials to do it with, even better and cheaper. I'm using the sides of old waterbeds for now, and they have held up for 5 years.

Even if the soil tests OK, raised beds give you easy places to walk, places to install hoop house hoops, let you do intensive intercropping, and just look tidier.

I appreciate all the ideas and comments that keep coming!

Kimmsr, your input about how much soil is needed is helpful because that is just HUGE, and they want all the work and soil donated for free. I find that a daunting task.

What everyone is saying about raised beds is where I am at, and I think we can find materials for much less money.

I wish we had community gardens in my town, but one of the cities around here does have community gardens and a Goodwill-sponsored gardening project, so guess where I am headed?

Nora

BTW, 185 cubic yards is about 10 dump truck loads, using the BIG highway certified trucks, or 185 loads for a really big pickup truck ... about 350 compact pickup truck loads.

If your current class builds, fills, and plants one bed, 4 feet by some length, and the next class or the summer school class does another one PLUS keeps the older bed going ... in a couple of years you will have the entire area filled and planted.

lazygardens this is the perfect visual for me to help explain why the idea of removing and replacing the soil does not make sense.

You're absolutely right about doing it a bit at a time. When I think about all the educational opportunities this could create my head just about explodes. :)

I like your waterbed garden frame. These are the types of ideas I am looking for. I also think ReStore, Freecycle, and Craigslist are going to become my new best friends. :)

I appreciate your help so much!

Nora

and Nora, if you do remove all that soil and replace it make sure to have the "new" soil tested before you have it trucked in.
No sense doing all that work if the new stuff isn't much better because the material you are removing will have to go someplace and who knows who'll get that.
Know thy sources.

If the soil comes back contaminated (I would not be surprised if it tests positive for lead and possibly dioxins(paper mill)).... anyway removing that soil it going to be hugely expensive because its now "special waste" rather than simply waste. Where are you going to put that contaminated soil, when its hauled away?

A raised bed is the way to go. But you are going to have to add soil. Amendments alone is probably not a good idea on contaminated soil.

Its also a possibility that you don't have contaminated soil, in that case layered amendments on top of the soil would work just fine.

I vote for raised beds too, on the basis of the volume and expense of soil needed - call some topsoil delivery places and get prices, that will shut them up. Not to mention the labor, when you could *make* very healthy soil *in place* letting the worms and the rest of the micro-herd do the work for you. ( Did anyone here suggest an onsite composting operation using the kitchen waste from the two facilities? Maybe a small pilot...

As for soil testing and contamination:

- I understand you're testing for metals, that's a good idea on a former industrial facility. Although paper mills did not use a lot of lead, there are two sources, lead paint from old buildings and coal cinders, that are very commonly found. I would stick with lead, testing for others is not worth the expense unless you have other information.

- You don't want to get into the dioxin issue, for several reasons. Paper mills did produce tiny amounts if they used bleach, but it may have gone right down the river with the wastewater. Unless you're in a former wastewater lagoon, I wouldn't worry about it. The 'cheap' analysis for that runs several hundred bucks, and the high-res mass spec methods closer to a grand. If you're in a heavily paper-mill laden state, you could ask your state env. agency's hazardous waste or site remediation program what they know about old paper mills. You don't have to give them an address, just say you're studying it for a school project. That is if you're interested.

- It would be much more important I think to get a nutrient & pH test from your local county extension office. About $15. Then you know what you're starting with.

- For the city compost, if they don't test it, you can still find out what goes into it by asking them. Do they use only yard waste, or do they add wastewater sludge, animal manures, shredded drywall, etc. Of those the only one I'd personally be very concerned about is the sewage sludge. Our city has a large hot dog plant, and the cellulose skins go into the city compost after they strip them off the cooked dogs. You never know!

Good luck & report back with how it's going.

Tox

Alright, got my micro-herd sound bite. :) LOVE the on-site composting idea.

The heavy metal test is $37, and the regular soil test is $12 or $15, so I'll do that, too. I was thinking if we did raised beds, what was below wouldn't matter so much because the amendments and layering of the organic materials would improve the soil--if it wasn't absolutely toxic (fingers crossed!). I see I need to think more about what else needs to be added to make the garden soil thrive.

Our city compost is just yard waste, leaves, brush, sticks. The public works director did explain that to me. No grass clippings are allowed; however, I'm sure they slip in. I find an occasional plastic action figure, rock, or twist tie.

The city compost smells fine, nothing chemically or rotten garbage-y, and worms move into it when I mix it with some shredded leaves and it disappears by the following year.
Thoughts? I know the city compost is not usda organic, but the savings we would have if we could use it would be huge. However, after reading the thread about the 82-year-old dad who fell ill from the compost, I don't want to grow food for seniors (or anyone, really) with compost that could be less-than-healthy for edibles.

Nora

From a former social work perspective - raised beds would also make the garden more accessible to those who are using a wheelchair or don't balance well... and many assisted living residents are there because those type of issues make it very hard to remain in their homes independently.

Good luck!

The beds will raise up on their own as you add amendments which will improve aeration (fluff). Maybe not a lot though, and it does take time.

I know what you're saying about putting good soil in top to avoid contaminants underneath. What does the native soil look like now? Sand, silt, clay? Can you post some pics of the soil (closeup) and the setting from farther away? How old is the school, by the way?

You could also compromise by adding a smaller volume of soil and a lot of compost and compostable materials rather than all soil. Also, if you were to dig up the first few inches, set that aside and begin your layering, you could add that soil back into the layers. Your improved bed would extend somewhat below the surface that way, which makes it shorter since you haven't added as much soil from outside, but still the same thickness of improved soil for growing.

I am suspicious of municipal compost, because it might include both catbox litter and dog manure. People keep pets, and the manure has to go somewhere. Its not supposed to be mixed in with yard waste, but how do you know for certain? If I were going to use municipal compost in our garden, I would first compost this material in our yard for a year, and then put it down on the garden.

Eric, I see your point. Bleh. Had not thought of pet poo. However, the idea of composting the compost is a useful suggestion.

The soil here in my part of Northeast Wisconsin is clay with rocks. :) However, it has a few worms in it, and I am amazed at how a section of my yard changes even in a few months' time with compost and leaf mold layering. The worms move in and the tilth of the soil changes perceptibly.

I will take pictures tomorrow when I visit the site and collect soil samples. My picture posting capabilities are hit and miss, but I'll try.

The garden will be located at the assisted living facility, which was completed in 2008 or 2009.

Also, the comments about raised beds being better for those with limited mobility was something I thought of, too. Thank you for your insight about that!

I haven't read my form for soil text collecting yet, so I have some homework. However, I'm going to ask you all if I should take samples from all over the garden area or just one place? I am thinking all around, but I haven't done my reading yet tonight. Thanks for helping me with my homework. :)

cheers,
Nora

Typically you would want to take soil from several spots across the area and mix thoroughly in a clean bowl or bucket, then take a sample of that composite. That is, assuming the soil is pretty much the same over the entire area so one composite will represent all of it pretty accurately.

I'm not sure where the pet poo comment is coming from, but I guess in general you can evaluate the risk of that sort of thing by understanding how the city compost facility gets its material and from where. If it's from dropoff sites, doubtful people would haul cat litter and dog poo down there to dump it. If it's from curbside, it's a bit harder to control. However, the occasional undesirable material is not going to hurt things. A well maintained large scale municipal compost operation should heat the compost well enough to destroy pathogens anyway.

You may be able to get free materials for the raised bed edges through donations or Freecycle if you have a Yahoo Freecycle group in your town. See www.freecycle.org.

Keep in mind that any soil you buy in volume is also local soil which may well be just as contaminated as what is there, if it is. Just where does this soil the landscape yards sell come from?

after reading the thread about the 82-year-old dad who fell ill from the compost, I don't want to grow food for seniors (or anyone, really) with compost that could be less-than-healthy for edibles.

The old man has "inhalation inflammation" - inhaling way too many spores and dust from the compost gave him lung inflammation and pneumonia. NOT an infection, a physical and inflammatory response.

Are they going to be eating the vegetables, or snorting the compost?

BTW: The dirt in the San Joaquin valley of California grows a pathogenic fungus called Coccidioides immitis but that doesn't make the food grown there hazardous.

Thanks, lg, I hope the residents will not attempt snorting the compost. :)

I have my soil collected to send to the soil lab. The area was a dumping/fill area for the construction company, according to an employee. I broke my trowel in one area. There is a variety of soil from dusty sand, to cement like clay, to mushy clay, but all around very rocky and blech. One area revealed three worms in a trowel scoop. The rest of the area, nada.

Below are a couple of pictures of the site. I tried to take a close-up of one area of dirt, but I see I was not so hot with the focus.

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That would look really great with trapezoidal beds following the line of the rocks, with aisles between them, and some sort of a focal point nearest the sidewalk - maybe a little seating area for the gardeners to chat in.

I'm with Lazygardens. Make them raised beds and make the paths wide enough for wheelchairs. Maybe set it up for something like Square Foot Gardening so that people can reach everything from the path. Of course, that assumes you want to let the residents help. Personally, I think that would be good, but I'm not sure whether it would float with the powers that be.

Good for you taking on this project!

I'm going to echo others' suggestions to start small. Go with raised beds, just a couple, - that will make it easier to start small and make it neat and manageable. I think this is an important point to drive home because while a garden seems so straightforward, you just don't know what's going to crop up in terms of volunteers, problems, complaints, etc. (I work on a community garden myself and it's been quite a learning experience.)

You may even want to approach this as if you're the only person who will be doing the planting, weeding, and watering. Hopefully and most likely it won't be that way, but, just in case, if the first year goes a little rough, you'll have made it small enough that even if you're the only one working on it, *you* can still make it a success. Making a small garden a great success the first year will draw more interest and optimisim for the next season than trying to do a larger garden with less success.

Nora ... I echo the admiration of other comments for you efforts ... I'm of the generation when our school had a Victory Garden and have very happy memories, not to mention fortifying familial gardening pattern for a lifetime of enjoyment.

May I add to the list of educational benefits to the children, the cross-generational habit/culture .... also the example of starting small [workable money/ time/ experience/ manpower-wise] is HUGE! The children will really feel the importance of their contribution if the scale is small.

Visual aides are also valuable ... both for children and adults/community to see the scope of the plan.

Re: soil tainted with toxic materials ... raised beds are great, but the pathways will kick up dust and airborne problems unless well-mulched. Because the oldsters and youngsters may be already at risk to airborne toxics. Again, a reason to start small, so as to throughly cover all the bases.

Even if the soil test comes back OK/CLEAR, the fact that construction waste was dumped on the site is a major argument in favor of raised beds.

Would you be able to use those rocks in the picture for some of the raised beds? They would be so pretty, not to mention FREE!

A big thank you to everyone for all of the encouragement and good ideas. I echo all of your reasons for why this project is so special and needed.

I was approached by teachers, so I do not want to take credit from them. :) We are all helping and working together. (I am really excited, though!)

The students and residents just named the garden together. We are envisioning students, residents, the chef, teachers, and parents to maintain the gardens.

I have attempted to stay focused on small and manageable for success our first year, too. It appears that three 3x6 beds are desired by the teachers. I think this is doable. We have already planted 50 winter sown containers, and the students planted 100 or so flats to start indoors to place in the gardens. Plus, I have many other things started, and some friends and other community members will enjoy donating seedlings to this project.

The suggestions about layout and the importance of space to accommodate wheel chairs is helpful. At this time the rocks will not go anywhere, but maybe we can create some visual interest with planters set by the rocks of something. :)

Please keep us posted (include pictures).

Besides freecycle and other found materials, sometimes a local lumberyard (or big-box building store) may donate materials if enough positive press can be generated from it. It never hurts to call around.