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elizabeth_in_nc

Can I grow Gallicas in the South? Recommendations please!

16 years ago

Last year a woman in Raleigh (North Carolina) gave me some suckers from a gorgeous rose in her garden. She identified it as Rose de Rescht. I hadn't had good luck with Portlands so I didn't expect much, but a few of the suckers rooted (they had a rough time before I could get them into a pot), and this spring they had buds. I stopped back to tell her of the success of the suckers and she told me that she had made a mistake in identification, and that the rose was really Belle de Crecy.

When I started growing roses a few years ago, I lost my heart to the Gallicas. But I live in North Carolina (z7b) and I thought I understood that Gallicas could only be grown in the North, so I (eventually) concentrated on Chinas and Teas.

Is Belle de Crecy an anomaly because of her China blood? If not, could some of the more southern Gallica growers recommend ones that do well down here (and warn me about those that don't). I live close to Raleigh and am, if anything, a bit colder in the winter.

I don't have any problem with once-bloomers; I lose my second flush to the JBs and generally I am so busy in the fall that I really can't appreciate the final flush. Besides, if only once a year I can have roses whose form and fragrance make my heart sing and that I love above all others, so be it. It is better then not having them at all.

Elizabeth

Comments (20)

  • 16 years ago

    You really need to hear from people in your zone, but remember that the 'South' covers a lot of territory, and central North Carolina is nothing at all like, say, the Mississipi Delta. I know for a fact that Gallicas don't need a lot of harsh cold, because they don't get it with me and they grow and flower fine just the same. Temperatures here rarely fall below 20F. They DO need winter chill--a certain number of hours with temperatures below 45F (I think that's the break point); and I don't know what they'd think of your summer humidity. I too have heard that the Hybrid Gallicas do well in some areas that are too warm for Gallicas.

    Melissa

  • 16 years ago

    I have 2 friends in NC, who grow gallicas thanks to my enabling and sharing suckers with them. Gallicas grow and bloom happily for them. I think 7b is not that far south. Also, I know, Melva in TX grows them. It is not even necessary that they should have china blood in my experience. I know that for example Tuscany Superb, Rosa Mundi, Duc de Guiche, Belle Sans Flatterie, Belle de Crecy, Charles de Mills, Beau Narcisse and Ipsilante were send by me to NC. All are blooming and growing well in my friends garden.

    Olga

    Olga

  • 16 years ago

    Altho it's been several years since I visited the Wilson Rose Garden in Wilson, NC, I remember the very healthy plantings there of Rosa gallica 'Offincinalis' and 'Rosa Mundi'. Located east of you, Wilson probably has temps that are consistently higher than those in the Raleigh area. The same two Gallicas are also planted in one of the gardens at Tryon Palace in the far eastern part of the state, but I've not checked recently to see how they are performing there.

    Years ago, Pickering sent me 'Rose des Maures' (aka 'Sissinghurst Castle') by mistake. I doubt if this is anyone's favorite Gallica, but it has survived in my hot, humid conditions & performs well in a semi-shaded location.

  • 16 years ago

    As suggested above, you probably can grow them successfully.
    They grow well for me on my side of the mountains. Do you want to grow a lot of them?
    Yes, if you love deep colors.
    Yes, if you are patient and forgiving.
    Forgiving: a state of mind that will forgive the weather if it gets very hot as the gallicas start to open and you only see three days bloom.

    My problem with gallicas and to a lesser extent with centifolias and albas, is that here their early May blooms sometimes coincide with the early May hot weeks. When that happens, very short bloom cycle.

    I continue to threaten that I may plant them in some woods with dappled shade, to see if they will give me a longer bloom period there, but first I've got to clear that area of privet hedge and poison ivy.

  • 16 years ago

    Thanks to all who responded for their encouragement. (Yeah baby, I'm going to be growing Gallicas! Sorry. I'll try to sound more responsible in the rest of the note.)

    Melissa- Yes, the South does vary a lot; before NC I lived in South Florida, and that was _nothing_ like here. I'm still learning this place. (I do know that you can't grow lilacs here! But I can grow figs.)

    Olga- I love those words, "I think 7b is not that far south." You mentioned some that I particularly want (Tuscany Superb and Charles de Mills along with Belle Isis and Cardinal de Richelieu) so it is good to hear that they are happy down here.

    Hemlady (Denise)- I'm in Cary, so if you can do it, I can do it. I wonder if the pots help; I have grown a lot of plants (including roses) in pots, and I've found that you can consider a potted plant as being one-half to one zone cooler than you are.

    The Wilson Rose Garden is on my schedule for this weekend (if the weather holds up); I've been there many times but haven't caught the spring bloomers in bloom very often. They've taken a lot of the old roses out (especially the once bloomers); except for the rugosas and polys they look pretty ratty even by June, which helped to make me think that I couldn't grow Gallicas. Of course the problem may be that the once bloomers are almost completely shaded by the trees in the picnic area!

    Ann- Gallicas are my sneaky way of having the dark colored roses that I love; dark remontants all fry for me in the summer sun. I SPed my beloved Francis Dubreuil because after spring all I ever saw were crispy flowers and a lot of BS.

    For some reason the only patience I have is for the garden; I'm going to put BdC next to Clotilde Soupert - all she gives me sometimes is tissue paper balls but I still love her. I'm a fragrance nut, so a great scent can make me forgive a lot.

    Another question for everyone: Generally, how BS free do the Gallicas remain? I'm hoping for leaves, not defoliated sticks. I'm planning to put some of the Gallicas (I've been convinced and am already making placement plans) in the herb garden, so there will be plenty of interest - to me at least - even when there are no roses.

    Elizabeth

  • 16 years ago

    Elizabeth,
    Actually I didn't mention Cardinal de Richelieu, this gallica is VERY BS prone. There are so many healthy gallicas, that I consider it unforgivable. Alice Vena has very deep purple color, but is healthy.
    olga

  • 16 years ago

    Not a gallica, but try to locate a plant of Cardinal Hume. A repeat bloomer with deep, deep purple blooms (none of this screaming magenta that sellers want to call purple). Mine grows under an oak tree. I don't think it's ever been sprayed.

  • 16 years ago

    Olga,

    More notes on BS resistance and susceptibility of Gallicas would be welcome. Given your tastes and your location, you are uniquely positioned to know.

  • 16 years ago

    Well, I am in zone 8b/9a and am trying several: Charles de Mills, Cardinal de Richelieu, Hippolyte, La Belle Sultane and Rosa Mundi. I received most of them as bands from Vintage and a few from RU. They are all doing wonderfully so far (but the heat hasn't kicked in yet). Most of them have had no BS but only some powdery mildew. Several of them have bloomed with very cute small blooms. I have a thought that those may be the only blooms that I ever get :0 but it was great while it lasted :)

    Time will tell and if they actually "do" anything here, I will definitely come on here and shout it to the world!

    Lynn (of non-Gallica country)

  • 16 years ago

    Olga- That's why I mentioned Cardinal de Richelieu and Belle Isis - because I remembered CdR, at least, getting mixed reviews as far as health. I don't spray, never have. Scratch him. Alice Vena is a wonderful color - a more than acceptable substitute for the Cardinal, but since some classify her as a Hybrid Perpetual I was afraid she would be too spotty. Yes, please, any additional notes on the health of the various Gallicas would be greatly appreciated. I can't grow them all, so want to pick the most healthy.

    Ann, I'll keep Cardinal Hume in mind. Thanks.

  • 16 years ago

    From my experience...the black spot occurs after they have bloomed..and none of mine defoliate completely.
    I have:
    Cardinal de Richeleau
    Camaxieux
    Malton
    Charles de Mills
    Belle Isis
    Ambrose Pare
    Duchesse de Buccleugh
    Rush Family
    Cramsoi des Alpes
    Crimson Gallica
    Canary Island
    Fleur de Pelletier
    Allegra
    Gallicandy

    and a few unknowns

  • 16 years ago

    For me the healthy ones (no spots or some spots, butnot too bad)are:
    Alice Vena- no BS
    Jeny Duval-no BS
    Apthecary rose
    Rosa Mundi
    Duc de Guiche
    Belle de Crecy
    Tuscany Superb
    Ipsilante
    The Bishop
    Alica
    Beau Narcisse
    Oeillet Flamand
    Conditorum
    Tricolore de Flandre
    Cahrles de Mills
    Belle Isis
    Belle Herminie
    Gallicandy
    Marianne
    Rose de la Maître-Ãcole

    The not so healthy ones:
    Gloire de France
    Camaeuix (sp?)
    Allegra
    Anais Segales
    Belle Doria
    Nouvelle Pivoine
    La Belle Sultaine (some years can be in forst group)
    Alain Blanchard
    Ellen Tofflemire

    Complicata is somewhere between two groups.

    There are many more in both groups, but I just will stop here :)

    Olga

  • 16 years ago

    Thanks to all who responded; since it is too hot here to mail order anything I can only look at my little Belle de Crecy and plan for next year and talk. Thanks for giving me the chance to learn.

    Ann- I forgot to say how much I liked your comment "none of this screaming magenta that sellers want to call purple." There is a lot of wishful thinking out there when it comes to colors - almost as much as with fragrance.

    Lynn- I hope they do well for you, but please let us know regardless. This is "zone pushing" from the other side.

    Melva- Thanks for the information. What is "Rush Family?" I couldn't find it on HMF - is it a found rose?

    Olga- I see now why Michael made the comment he did. Wow! (Perhaps it is best that I can't order right now after seeing that list.)

    I hope some of you will post full bush shots when your roses are in bloom.

    Elizabeth

  • 16 years ago

    'Rush Family Gallica' is a found rose that I got from Uncommon Roses, a few years ago...it has done very well for me...I can send you a sucker in the fall, if you would like.
    {{gwi:256022}}

  • 16 years ago

    Thanks, Melva, I may take you up on that offer if I can find/make additional space for roses. At first, I want to concentrate on the very dark colors, with some very lights to intersperse. Plus, I realized that I need the Apothecary Rose.

    I miss The Uncommon Rose... It looks like Pickering has the largest selection of Gallicas (although Vintage has a scary number which are custom root, I don't think I need to go that route yet). But all Pickering's Gallicas are grafted, I think, and I don't have much experience with grafted roses - all my roses but one are own root.

  • 16 years ago

    Elizabeth,

    If you're able to get some of the Descanso Hybrid lilacs, they should get enough winter chill where you are to bloom, as they even bloom in Los Angeles, land of palm trees and Bougainvillea. Two that I have personal experience with are Angel White and Scentsation (or do they spell it correctly as Sensation, I can't remember anymore). Also, there are several low-chill lilacs like Miss Kim and others whose names escape me right now.

    --Ron

  • 16 years ago

    Ron, Sensation (sp?) is a good one. The other one that performs well in my friends garden in zone 8 is Lavender Lady. But Miss Kim is really not a "lilac" if you want a "real thing". It has different leaves, different flowers, most importnatluy different fagrance. It is like offering a peach to person who wants an apple :) Better then no fruit, but..
    Olga

  • 16 years ago

    Ron- Thank you so much for the recommendation for the lilacs. I will definitely look into them. My Michigan-born husband thanks you too; we both miss lilacs.

    Olga- You are quite correct; Miss Kim is just not right at all. The wrong scent is the worst thing; no one grows a lilac for the beauty of its leaves. I will look for Lavender Lady too.

    Back to roses... My copy of Suzanne Verrier's Rosa Gallica arrived today. I want them all! (Amusingly, I sold my copy of the book years ago and had to buy another one.) I have just started reading it; is it a book to be depended on for history and cultural practices?

    Elizabeth

  • 16 years ago

    Hi Olga, thanks for giving me a laugh! That's a very perfect description. I knew Miss Kim wasn't like a regular lilac, but to keep up the analogy, if someone's dying of thirst, asking for water, and all you have is peach juice, quite likely they'd be happy with that. ;-)

    Lavender Lady is one of the ones I was trying to remember. I think there's a whole series like that one.

    --Ron