I think it's the "quickie" part that is causing you the most trouble. Organic means no Round-up and no chem fertilizer. Building soil takes time. And work.

But that doesn't mean that you can't get things to grow, even without fertilizer.

You can boost your plants' growth with all sorts of organic concoctions, from compost tea to fish goop and alfalfa pellets. There are plenty of articles on these here.

For weeding, there are several long-handled tools that can help you snip weeds at soil level or pull out shallow roots. If you can't bend, I don't see how you can apply Round-up effectively without getting it anywhere but the foliage.

I think you are looking for instant results, which is why your work so far seems like "total and complete failure". That's probably not the case.

Forget about growing perfect roses this season. Give yourself and your garden the time to build excellent soil - this will pay off for years to come.

Spend some time with this treatise by Dr. Elaine Ingham adn you will better understand why 10-10-10 and weed killers are not needed.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Soil Food Web Primer

Dood, here is a picture of a {{gwi:296411}} which is a real back saver when working to remove unwanted grass and weeds and do light cultivation around plants in your garden. I have worn out any number of them in my lifetime. They are easy to sharpen razor sharp with a hand file. You might imagine how many sharpenings it would take to wear that hoe away (this one is about half gone but that is when they get easier to use with dexterity).

Since you are talking organic, there are several threads on the subject that you might find helpful, one on down the page one here, and more at or near the top of page two.
Bill P.

Thanks for that link Kimmsr. Wonderful info and well presented.
Whenever the article raises a question, she goes on to answer it. I have bookmarked it and will share.

Hey Guys

Over the years, I've had many people wag their finger in my face for using a few techniques that were not totally organic. Some have been kind and helpful. Some have been condescending or, even mean spirited.

Ole gonefishin has always given honest and helpful advice.
Blutranes flips me out with his knowledge AND his debate skills. I wouldn't cross words with him if y'all hired me to! Honestly, to me, he usually seems correct.

kimmsr; That link was in fact very good. Ms. Ingham has another article (much lengthier) I've read that was also very informative. It did not explain what Roundup applied to "foliage only" does.

Hey gonefishin; My dad's garden was at least one acre every year of our lives. We gardened year-round. I personally wore-out a few hoes identical to yours. You're right, a sharp hoe is a lot easier to work with. I'm tellin 'ya, I'm not new to this. It just seems so with the many stupid questions I ask.

Chris Ont; I already knew fairly well what "organic" means. When I said I was new to the "technical" aspects, I thought it was clear I was referring to the Micro-Herd issue. You'll just have to take my word for it, I can apply Round-Up without getting any on the soil. And, without bending!

My question was "What exactly happens to the Micro-Organisms when you use these things?"

For instance, it's pretty clear that any M/O's living on the leaf's surface would be impacted in a negative way when the weeds were sprayed with Round-Up. I'm sure they are impacted also when you yank the weeds. What damage occurs in the soil as a result of Round-Up use "ON FOLIAGE"?

As far as fertilizer, it's not necessary for me to use chems since, there are many alternatives that are organic that will be as effective as a very weak chemical mix.

Great article kimmsr. An understanding of the soil and the mutual relationships between various organisms and plants that live in the soil empowers me to make the right decisions about my garden. It's kind of cool to picture all that stuff working together in my backyard. And in the end I get to be a part of the cycle when I pick a vegetable, eat it, and throw the leftovers in my compost pile.

Pete

Dood:

I googled a few articles on roundup a few weeks ago and it seemed that there was little if any effect on the soil microrganisms. (i was surprised, but several peer reviewed papers came to similar conclusions)

No idea if macroorganisms (worms etc) will be affected. you can go to Google Scholar and plug in key workds like glyphosphate and biodiversity and etc.

Glysophate has a very short life, so I think its impact would be minimal. 2,4-D sticks around longer, so it might have more of an impact. I would think the insecticides would be the worst, though.

I'm not sure about the fertilizers, but I think as long as it's just fertilizer and not some combo fertilizer/weedkiller/pesticide, it wouldn't be too bad, at least not if you're also using organics.

One thing to point out is that there is an organic alternative to glysophate. Vinegar is a nonselective herbicide. There's even a special kind of it that is extra strength (I believe 20%) that is sold for that purpose.

Repeated or excessive use of chemical pesticides and fertilizers can have a negative impact on soil microorganisms but a moderate use is unlikely to have a significant detrimental impact. "Moderation" is the key term here. Most herbicides do breakdown rather quickly once in the soil and their occasional use, with care, will not produce irreparable harm. OTOH, organic methods encourage the expansion of these populations as well as their diversity and should be pursued whenever possible, but again with some care as to their application. Although considered an "organic" alternative, high strength vinegar (20% citric acid) is extremely caustic, alters soil pH and will, at least temporarily, make the soil very inhospitable to microorganisms.

I have the best soil around! I have beed going to the city close by and getting free truckloads of ground up limbs and leaves and just spreading it around the fields. Of course one place where I wanted to make a walking flowerbed now has the best grass of all my yards. Once you get about a ft. of mulch spread aroung it is easy to drag something around on the surface with a lawnmower to stop weeds and stuff. The mulch holds moisture in the ground and really improves the soil. Of course it helps to have a pickup truck with a dump on it.

Thanks dood, I do try to back up what I say with pictures as evidence, rather than hollow talk, stuff that I have copied and pasted or just rhetoric. I think that we over think and over worry a lot of this stuff. Here is an example: This is a near record, if not THE record for rainfall for our area. Consequently a very good (or bad depending on which side you are on)year for fleas. Because of our dogs misery, we had to treat the yard for fleas the other day and used some bug b gone product in a fertilize spreader when it looked like it was going to be no rain for most of a day.

It got the fleas, but much to my dismay, I found in the yard thee next day after the next heavy downpour. Some of them could have drown of course, some usually do, however I was very encouraged a few days later to see (all the little black spots) of an apparently still healthy population of earthworms. Mind you, this is after two years of severe drought which really took it's toll on them. I am still not seeing much evidence of the little red wigglers, but as I understand it, they do not burrow deep to escape the drought like the regular earthworms.

My conclusion is that they are pretty resilient, danged tough and can withstand a lot of adversity and come back strong. Consequently, I would not worry at all about spraying a little bit of round up on the foliage of unwanted weeds and grasses. I think that it goes right down the plant stem and kills the roots and is deactivated with contact with the dirt.
Just my observations and thoughts.
Bill P.

It's weird that you would use worms as an example. I'm using a "cajun version" of the Lasagna method in some places where I had severe nematode problems prior to the flood. I'm hoping to attract worms that will ultimately carry the piles of organic material I'm collecting, down into this "river sand". THEY say organic material promotes the micro-herd things that eat or kill bad nematodes.

Have you ever seen one of those long-handled-pincher-things that grounds keepers use to pick up paper-n-stuff? Well, I wired-twisted a small piece of rag onto each of the pincher-pads. Now, I dip the two pincher-pads into a container of Round-Up, soaking the rags. I pinch onto the bottom of a weed and, while maintaining the "pinch pressure", I slide upward along the entire length of the weed. Two days later the weed is brown, history, dade, outta heya!

It takes about 6 applications for me to catch-up and destroy the initial "bloom/flush" of weed growth that follows the start of a new garden. After that, if I kill the weeds before they flower-n-seed, and do not till-up new seeds to germinate, I can get away with using Round-Up only 4 or 5 times a year. And, no chems on the soil!

I know, I know, the cardboard and the depth of the lasagna bed is supposed to inhibit weed growth. Well here, our nut-sedge and stuff come through all that like gangbusters. To me, it seems to not even slow weed growth down!

That's a pretty ingenious method of targeting RU application. That's even better than getting really close before spraying--no drift whatsoever.

Yeah, nothing like that upswipe with "pinch pressure"! ":^)

Just kidding dood. I would probably be inclined to use my sharp goose neck on them and let them fall to become new greens to compost and add back into the soil. Unless you have some really wide raised beds, a hoe with a 4 foot handle would raach across most of them. I know that the discussion including the subject of hoes may seem risque to some, but the e on the end of the word makes all the difference, and should make it gardensafe. ":^)

Just my banter, or babbeling.
Bill P.

Glyphosate products are not as safe and are more harmful than the manyfacturers admit. Since many here do not want to believe Carolyn Cox here is another source of information.

Here is a link that might be useful: Glyphosate safety