vicissitudez

Where are they now? (Francis Dubreuil & other MIA roses)

Vicissitudezz
5 years ago

The previous threads on this topic (and a few others) can be found at the links below.

I hope the new subject line is more useful in case anyone eventually wants to revisit the 'Francis Dubreuil' thread, and doesn't remember that the original subject line was about native species roses...

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesant/msg082057486302.html

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesant/msg081406439752.html

I hope this topic hasn't run its course already, but I think (hope) there may still be some new developments?

Virginia

Comments (572)

  • jerijen
    2 years ago

    I also see a resemblance.
    Boy, I sure wish we could get some of the Aussie roses!

    Vicissitudezz thanked jerijen
    Best Answer
  • true_blue
    4 years ago

    I know it's a lot, but all the info is here and anyone interested in the quest receive updates. If we start a new thread, then many who have subscribed to it, have to restart posting in order to get updates.
    For myself, I haven't much more to add. I'm battling with the translation of my last pre WWII text mentioning FD.
    And then I won't have anything else to post, unless one of my leads decides its time......


  • roseseek
    4 years ago

    Or, someone stumbles on another reference. That often happens. It seems the trail is cold, then it heats up again. I sincerely appreciate all the "gold" which you all have mined. What a treasure!

  • true_blue
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Well we did have inspiration, didn't we?

  • true_blue
    4 years ago

    Here is the last pre-War mention of Francis Dubreuil I found thanks to L'Haÿ's document section. (i.e. if I haven't missed any !)
    I tried my best to translate the text in legible English.
    Note: All our usual suspects are included/ rounded :-)


    Les Amis des rose - Mars - Avril 1935
    Tea roses at the French Riviera (Côte d'Azur) and cold climates...
    Page 24-5

    By Paul NABONNAND.


    Translation: The tea class, are from selected seedlings of the species Rosa indica fragrans, synonym: Indica odoratissima, tea scented rose, hence the name of this class.
    The species reaches a height of 0.60m (1.97'), the stems are armed with medium prickles, straight and scattered; 3 to 5 leaflets, oval, finely serrated, sharp and smooth, slightly shaded underneath, carried on a stalk topped with small curved prickles.
    Flowers are rather big, with a diameter of 0.05 m (5 cm/2"), with a color, transparent clear, held by slightly hispid peduncles.

    Corolla consists of several rows of petals, irregularly serrated at the top, globular ovaries, calyx lobes almost always full, smooth and hairless.

    This species was introduced from India to England around 1800. It has, by selected seedlings and later by hybridization, produced numerous varieties, mostly, much more vigorous and robust than the species, of which some are climbing and in all shades.

    Contrary to what rosarians who haven't grown them, might think, many varieties are as resistant to frost as Hybrid teas, Pernetianas, etc. in climates resembling that of Paris and Lyon. I have experienced it first hand and I saw them resisting, without any protection, nor straw/mulch temperatures of -14°C/ 6.8 °F
    (Roughly zone 7b).

    I am thus sure by planting them deeply, mulching and mounding them in winter, one can grow them with success in most of Europe, i.e. if gardeners avoid shearing them down. The tea is a class, where bushes can become large easily: 2.50 m/8.2' in height & width.

    I have listed below, varieties which are most robust and floriferous; A
    t the French Riviera, 2 successive flushes, from April to end of June and from September to Mid January
    Varieties marked with an asterisk are the most hardy and resistant to frost.

    Dark red, velvety, coppery teas
    *Francis Dubreuil - Crimson red
    *Général Galliéni - Fiery ponceau red /Fiery poppy red /Fiery dark red (which one do you prefer?)
    *Princess de Sagan - Dark Carmine red
    *Souvenir de Thérèse Levet - Dark Carmine

    Looking forward to your comments.....


  • Marlorena-z8 England-
    4 years ago

    ..thanks Bob... that's quite a list again of what must have been some wonderful roses at the time, yet quite a feat for one 'Isabella Nabonnand' to be regarded as above all others for scent....

    ..'Tillier'..?.. why are we calling it 'Mons. Tillier' now...? that's what I'd like to know...


  • true_blue
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Note it is most delightfully scented. I can't comment on the scent!
    You can ask John Hook from Roserai du Désert about the fragrance....

    I found a French link of someone who bought it from them, if you want to exercise your French :-), here it is: Isabelle Nabonnand or with google translate....

  • Marlorena-z8 England-
    4 years ago

    .thanks Bob.... Oh I'm sorry I obviously got it wrong, I thought it said it was the most scented rose of that group [de la section]...

    ....I rather enjoyed that site, they have some nice roses and other plants I've been looking at...

  • true_blue
    4 years ago

    I don't think you got it wrong :-) It's a question of nuance I suppose, the original rose was supposedly violet scented...

    They really have nice plants, if you're looking for an excuse,you could always get Odee Pink and compared it your supposed Irène Watts ;-)


  • Marlorena-z8 England-
    4 years ago

    ..I did intend to do just that actually Bob, but temptation got the better of me and I've got another 5 roses arriving shortly... I've run out of space...for now... but I won't rule it out this winter..... there's always room for another...

  • David_ in NSW Australia z8b/9a
    4 years ago

    We are leaving Australia on Sunday 19th and will be at La Roseraie du Val Marne on 12th or 13th August to find out what we can. I have engaged Gaelle from David Austins to help where she can as she is French, she is pleased to help.

  • true_blue
    4 years ago

    Bon voyage David and enjoy the trip!

  • roseseek
    4 years ago

    Have a great time, David! We'll look forward to LOTS of photos!

  • Marlorena-z8 England-
    4 years ago

    ..how exciting... we shall look forward to your reports...of which I hope there are lots... and lots...

    ...have a lovely holiday...

  • David_ in NSW Australia z8b/9a
    4 years ago

    Thanks everyone, yes, "hoping" to find something in the gardens one way or the other. Photos, yes they will come.

    Marlorena, we arrive in England on Monday, can you order some warm weather please.

  • Marlorena-z8 England-
    4 years ago

    ...I have arranged that for Monday David.... should be 80 deg. but I lose my magic touch from then on....sorry...

    ...Paris will be hot though in August.... and I hope your French is better than mine...

    ...do take care... best wishes....

  • Marlorena-z8 England-
    4 years ago

    ..David will be relieved to get to Paris.... I hope he's still afloat here as the country is getting a non stop 18 hour deluge right now... I think we're about halfway through....

    ..bon voyage...

  • David_ in NSW Australia z8b/9a
    4 years ago

    Hi Marlorena, Sunday 26th, sitting inside at Aylesbury Bucks, looking at the rain, can you cancel it please. I need more rose therapy(gardens & walks)

  • Marlorena-z8 England-
    4 years ago

    David,... I have to apologise on behalf of the whole country for this shocking rain.... who would have thought it?...

    ...the rest of the week will be quite nice, so you can get out and about.... welcome to England...

  • David_ in NSW Australia z8b/9a
    4 years ago

    Hello everyone, we are about to leave Paris this afternoon with sad hearts and angry mind. We went to the gardens to fid our missing rose. Guess what, the b_ _ _ _ Y garden were closed due to them ALL being sprayed. Not happy David.

  • Marlorena-z8 England-
    4 years ago

    ..oh I'm so sorry...that's a terrible shame, for all of us too... otherwise, enjoy the rest of your holiday, it can't be helped David...

  • true_blue
    4 years ago

    Just an update.

    I received an email from Sangerhausen in mid December stating that
    their Barcelona and Francis Dubreuil are not the same plant.

    I asked for more precision about their plant, (specifically fragrance). They said they'd contact me in February.

    I honestly doubt they have the original plant.

    I'll keep you posted if anything new comes up.

  • roseseek
    4 years ago

    Thanks for the update, Bob! Better late, if ever, I guess!

  • Marlorena-z8 England-
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    ...look forward to hearing what they have to say but Beales told me the same thing Bob...

    ..actually, I've found the quote upthread from March last year, so here it is again.... it's a bit of a laugh now really, with hindsight...

    ''Thank you for your email. Our Francis Dubreuil is an old Tea rose introduced by Francis Dubreuil in 1894 in France. The Hybrid Teas are thicker stemmed and especially robust if a Kordes variety. Barcelona is a 1932 variety from Germany. Yes we do have the Irene Watts rose which is different to Pink Gruss An Aachen. I hope that this helps you''.



  • true_blue
    4 years ago

    Just a short update.

    I got an email from Sangerhausen saying that they are not sure of the identity of their Francis Dubreuil. They are going to double check, this summer and contact me again. Probably somewhat around December 2016. Unless someone makes a trip there with a camera.....

    Or Dr. Manners students do the DNA testing this summer on FDs from around the world :-)

    I also had confirmation that the reference of GST to FD in the 1994 edition of his book is indeed for Barcelona….

  • krisnapora
    4 years ago

    I am interested in the 'Francis Dubreuil' rose and purchased one from Antique Rose Emporium, not realizing all the confusion surrounding it vs Barcelona. Mine smells absolutely heavenly, so it was with some consternation that I read that possibly the original FD rose of 1894 bears no fragrance. However, knowing a little bit of French from my school days, I read with interest TrueBlue's post of 7/7/2015: Les amis des Roses - July - August - 1935. Pages 64-69, wherein FD made the cut of 300 best roses of cultivation under the category of Tea Rose. Or in French, "Rosiers Thes", on page 64, which is page one of TrueBlue's post. "Cette section est remarquable par l'abondance de sa floraison, la grande variation, et la delicatesse des coloris et DU PARFUM." (Capitalization mine.) Parfum means fragrance. And of course in 1935 they would not be confusing this rose with the 1932 Barcelona rose.

    I am so appreciative, TrueBlue for your posts. And to others as well. It is all very inspiring. I do agree with several others that FD is more delicate (smaller stems, more "weeping" habit) and the blooms are more cupped than the photos I have seen of the Barcelona rose.

    Another thought: I find it interesting about the tea rose classification as I thought that the true tea roses were cultivated in the Orient and brought to Europe in the 1800s?? FD has many qualities of the original tea roses - being delicate, weeping habit and so on - but was bred and introduced in France. Knowing the original parentage would certainly be enlightening.

    A little more history: Apparently Francis Dubreuil (the person) was a tailor in Lyon. He married Marie Rambaux, the daughter of Joseph Rambaux, a gardener and rose breeder at Parc de la Tete D'or. After his father-in-law died, Francis introduced several of his (Joseph's) roses into commerce, including 'Souvenir du rosieriste Rambaux', a pink-blend Tea, in 1883 and 'Perle d'Or', sometimes considered a China rose and sometimes a polyantha, in 1884. He went on to develop many many more roses and was the founder of the French Society of Rose Growers. According to his obituary in Les Amies des Roses, (HelpMeFind website), "He was a helpful man, of great common sense, and played a big role in the prosperity of horticultural societies." Francis and Marie's daughter Claudia Dubreuil married an apprentice of her father named Antoine Meilland, future father of Francis Meilland, named after his grandfather and yes, THE Francis Meilland who went on to develop the world famous 'Peace' rose. Wow, I was not aware of all this until I looked it all up. Amazing. One would hope that the House of Meilland would have the parentage of the 'Francis Dubreuil' rose in their files?

    After all this on-line research, I am going to go out and smell the roses, especially FD. It is less than a year old and already has lots of buds and blooms. I am absolutely thrilled with it, no matter what it is called! :)




  • roseseek
    4 years ago

    Don't let the classification confuse you. As has been discussed here previously, it's up to the raiser/introducer what to classify the rose. It has frequently been based upon what the plant looks like and how it performs. You can imagine how disastrous it would have been to classify Queen Elizabeth as a floribunda when it grow so large. The same holds true for "Teas" when their parentage would honestly place them as "Hybrid Teas", but don't grow upright with stiff, straight stems and for HTs which grow and "nod" like Teas.

  • krisnapora
    4 years ago

    Thank you, roseseek. After I posted my comment, I discovered the "48 more comments" link at the top of the thread and clicked on that to discover the discussion. Yes, this definitely acts like a tea. I am even considering putting it in a hanging basket until it gets bigger, lol.

  • krisnapora
    3 years ago

    I came across "Mrs. Foote's Rose Book" published in 1948, by Harriet Risley Foote - famed rosarist (as she is described on the book jacket) who grew some 10,000 roses on four acres in Cambridge Massachusetts. In her book she lists her recommended roses, divided by type. I see no mention of the 'Francis Dubreuil' rose, but she does describe 'Barcelona' (hybrid tea) as follows: "The large, cupped, double, fragrant, dark crimson blooms develop from long pointed buds which are borne on long, strong stems. The blooms last in good condition for several days." (bottom of page 80). My FD rose does not have long strong stems, nor does the bloom last, nor could I describe it as large even for those days. I am inclined to believe that I do not have 'Barcelona'. Interested readers may find a used book as I was able to - or a digital copy on-line at the HathiTrust digital library: (hathitrust.org).

  • AquaEyes 7a NJ
    3 years ago

    Most people growing 'Barcelona' today -- even under its 'Francis Dubreuil' alias -- have own-root plants. Kim Rupert has mentioned its transformation when it's grown on rootstock, and it's likely this is how 'Barcelona' was grown when described above.

    :-)

    ~Christopher

  • jerijen
    3 years ago

    Yes. One Southern CA exhibitor has her soi disant "Francis Dubreuil" budded to Fortniana rootstock. She says the plant is 5-ft. tall, and blooms are on long, straight stems.

    What you have IS 'Barcelona.' If you get it budded, it will grow like that for you, too.Here it is at the Huntington, where that part of the garden has been replanted in the past year:


  • roseseek
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Krisnapora, you give no indication in your profile nor signature where you are located, but if you are in the US and your plant was obtained in the US, it IS Barcelona. There is no record of Francis Dubreuil being offered commercially in this country past World War II, UNTIL Bob Edberg imported Barcelona from Peter Beales as FD (approximately 20 years ago) and it began being spread around from the plant he gave me to give The Huntington. If you are somewhere else in the world and your plant did not originate with a European nursery which, most likely, obtained their mis identified stock from Sangerhausen, then it may be possible you have the "real" Francis Dubreuil...or not.

  • krisnapora
    3 years ago

    My rose looks more like the photo Marlorena posted (on the other thread) of her FD she grows in England. Mine definitely nods. When I pick the blooms, I put them up on a shelf so I can see the bloom -- hence my earlier joke about putting it into a hanging basket. But your posts inspired another thought: Has anyone entertained the possibility that Kordes basically reintroduced the 1894 'Francis Dubreuil' as 'Barcelona' in 1932 using a different rootstock? There were no patents for flowers back then, and it is my understanding that this was quite a problem for the early rose breeders.

  • krisnapora
    3 years ago

    Roseseek: So are you saying that DNA testing has been completed? I have been trying to find the results of that, but haven't seen anything so far.

  • roseseek
    3 years ago

    There is nothing to compare its DNA to that will definitively prove what it is. All the various contenders could be compared to one another to make sure they are all the same, but there is no listed parentage for FD. There are no offspring for FD in the US against which to test it. The only seedling listed on HMF was obviously created using Barcelona as an FD imposter. So, to what should the rose be compared to determine if it IS FD? I've discussed this with Dr. Manners and even he said there is nothing to test the rose against to prove anything. As for Kordes reintroducing an earlier rose on a different stock...not very likely. From what was written in the ARS annuals of the period, Kordes was quite proud of Barcelona when it was released. It was, at the time, the only deep red, highly scented HT which held up under hot sun and high heat without frying and/or turning "blue". That is why I sought it out originally, thirty something years ago. I gardened and bred roses in the mid Southern California desert. "Heat tolerant" was definitely what I needed/wanted and Barcelona has some of the best of the vintage and type.

  • jerijen
    3 years ago

    And it is worth remembering, as well, that 'Barcelona' was one of the "Before 'Peace'" Hybrid Teas.

    The whole class began to change, after the introduction and success of 'Peace.'

    So, even budded, 'Barcelona' isn't going to be the same sort of plant as today's HTs.

    FWIW, this is the plant the Huntington grows as 'Francis Dubreuil' -- yes. It's budded.


  • roseseek
    3 years ago

    And, budded or not, it doesn't have "Tea" foliage nor wood, and It doesn't match the color nor scent descriptions for FD.

  • Vicissitudezz
    Original Author
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    There is- supposedly- a 1st generation descendant of FD at Sangerhausen, 'Friedrichsruhe'. Of course, Sangerhausen supposedly has 'Francis Dubreuil' also, so who knows? But if it were possible to obtain a bit of plant material for DNA testing, it might be interesting to compare it to any FD candidates. If we had any.

    Virginia

  • jerijen
    3 years ago

    The late Col. Mel Hulse once told me that, during WWII, a tank battle was fought over part of Sangerhausen's grounds. At the end of that war, most of their records marched off East with the Russians. So, it is not surprising that they checked for identity on many of their plants with Peter Beales.

    Beales, though a VERY nice man, and a great rosarian, was human, and therefore, not perfect. And on some of those identifications ... he made mistakes.

    That's why we ended up with 'Pink Gruss an Aachen' masquerading as 'Irene Watts' (which is very likely extinct). 'Barcelona' is another rose that went to Beales for ID -- and was mistakenly called 'Francis Dubreuil'.

    That's just the way it is. Roseseek is correct. The foliage is a dead giveaway. The rose so many of us bought as 'Francis Dubreuil' is 'Barcelona.'

  • AquaEyes 7a NJ
    3 years ago

    I think the real 'Irene Watts' may be "Odee Pink".


    :-)


    ~Christopher

  • jerijen
    3 years ago

    But we may never know for sure. :-(


  • Vicissitudezz
    Original Author
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    My "Odee Pink" seems more early-HT-ish than I would've expected from 'Irene'. Also, no apricot shadings, as one writer waxed poetic over... Salmon pink, maybe... it's a color that seems to cover wide swathes of rose tints, so maybe.

    Supposedly, it greatly resembles its maman, 'Mme Laurette Messimy', but I don't grow the real 'MLM', and can't really see a striking resemblance to the HMF fotos.

    It IS a vigorous and bloomy rose, though, whether it's a long-lost 'Irene Watts' or some other lost gem. And I can detect some fragrance, which is not the usual thing for me. Me likes!

    Virginia

  • Vicissitudezz
    Original Author
    2 years ago

    For anyone who is still curious about 'Francis Dubreuil', here is a nice illustration from a German rose book, Die Rose by Robert Betten, 1903:

    Does anyone else think that this etching has a resemblance to the Aussie foundling "Kombacy Elyena"?

    Always curious,

    Virginia

  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
    2 years ago

    I see a resemblance. Very pretty, and new to me.

    Vicissitudezz thanked Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
  • cathz6
    2 years ago

    It "feels right" doesn't it? How in the world did you manage to put these two roses together Virginia?

    I understand that more comparison are required, still it does look like a real possibility.

    Cath


    Vicissitudezz thanked cathz6
  • AquaEyes 7a NJ
    2 years ago
    last modified: 2 years ago

    The concern I have is the rush to assume that a found red Tea may be FD, while there are other "lost" red Teas. If you do an advanced search on HMF for red Teas, you'll find quite a few whose scant descriptions and few illustrations could also be possibilities. For example.....

    http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.60704

    Or, perhaps this one, which was actually sold in Australia:

    http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.60962

    Also, trace 'Papa Gontier' back a few generations and you'll see some other lost red Teas.

    I think we may be biased toward finding the true versions of roses whose names have been misapplied to others because we want to correct these errors. But those aren't the only possibilities.

    Regardless, that's some good detective work, Virginia.

    :-)

    ~Christopher

    Vicissitudezz thanked AquaEyes 7a NJ
  • Vicissitudezz
    Original Author
    2 years ago

    Sheila, I agree; that's a Tea I'd like to have for its own sake, but also to see if an up-close look furthers or nixes my suspicions about it being 'Francis Dubreuil'.

    Jeri, yes, I would very much like to be able to import this foundling, as well as a few other roses the Aussies have that we don't.

    Cath, to be honest, I've had my eye on "KE" ever since I happened across a reference to it more than a year ago. I don't remember how I heard of it, but it's likely that I found the HMF record while looking for something else. The description sounds a lot like descriptions of 'FD' back in the day.

    Hey, David- are you still following along? Is there any chance that you could get a plant of "KE" to study up close?

    Virginia

  • Vicissitudezz
    Original Author
    2 years ago

    Christopher, no rushing involved. I've been reading all that I can find about these two Teas, and I think there are some interesting similarities... even the controversy about fragrance seems to apply to both roses. Also growth habit and bloom descriptions...

    I do not say that "KE" is the long-missing 'FD'; I only say that she's my favorite candidate for the position.

    Yes, of course, the real 'FD' may be completely extinct, but if he isn't, I'd expect to find him in Oz. And I'd further expect to find him in NSW, where he is supposed to have thrived, and been in commerce well into the 1930's.

    Virginia

  • Vanessa Mapp
    2 years ago

    I'm in Wellington, NZ. I have a 'Francis Dubreuil' from the heritage rose nursery here, Trinity Roses. My Francis Dubreuil is a small bush [about 5 yrs old now & still the smallest of my 40 varieties of old roses. It's a very dark red - black & highly fragrant. Looks very similiar to the pic from Huntington gardens. I was just googling to see how much sun it likes, as i was planning to shift it & it's one of my favourite roses......


    Vicissitudezz thanked Vanessa Mapp
  • roseseek
    2 years ago
    last modified: 2 years ago

    I'm glad you like the rose, but your description is disappointing. Over here, we had hoped the original Francis Dubreuil might still exist in Australia. From your description, you are growing Kordes Barcelona. The confusion between the two is explained on the rose page for Francis Dubreuil on Help Me Find-Roses.

    Vicissitudezz thanked roseseek
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