I am not sure how a bourbon would do for you in Florida, but here Maggie is a big, beautiful dark pink rose. She blooms all the time and makes a really nice round bush with very little disease (only a pinch of PM in the dryer months of summer). Right now she is about 5 X 5, but has some 6 foot canes shooting up to the stars. I expect she would be easily 6 X 6 if I let her.

I am planning to do exactly as you have done and carve out a 6 X 6 spot in the middle of the lawn for a 'centerpiece' rose. I have chosen Arcadia Louisiana Tea or Cramoisi Superieur. I think that if I did not have Maggie already established in her current spot, I would have chosen her.

Good thought, jbfoodie, she would be beautiful, but I have Maggie, too, in the back. She's very young still and did well until August-September. She kept more leaves than most but not many. I guess that's not unusual for high-summer. I don't know if I'd risk a Bourbon in that spot here. I'm afraid any rose I pick is going to be inadequate for the role for a few years.

Sherry

I planted Mrs. Woods this year - late July own root. She hasn't bloomed for me yet, but she has grown beautifully. I haven't noticed any blackspot on her. Since I planted her own root and so late in the season, I can't give you much input (at least not yet). How big of a rose are you looking for your centerpiece? I was wondering about maybe lemon pillar? or the fairy? depending on size you're looking for a yellow or pink should look great with your whites.

Sherry, You know I don't know from Blackspot, but I like your thought
of Mrs. BR Cant. I think she could do what you want.

Another that wants badly to do that here is Mme. Berkeley.
In fact, we must move her, because I woefully underestimated her
need for space.
Another suggestion might be Mme. Lambard, seen here in the Sacramento
City Cemetery:

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This plant being something over 5 ft tall.

You'll remember the bloom (link below).

Jeri

Here is a link that might be useful:

Kandituft, I'll be interested in hearing how MWLPN does next year for you. Yellow or pink would be wonderful. The Fairy I think would be too small (I have a newly planted one.)

Jeri, Mme Lambard is beautiful. Thanks for the bush shot. Talk about one photo being worth a thousand words. That photo is "Roses 101" for me since I've never even seen a rose bush that big! Vintage's description is amazing: they had 12 bushes of it, not realizing they were all Mme Lambard! How incredible is that?? To me that kind of variability would be wonderfully exciting. Thanks for putting your stamp of approval on Mrs B R Cant. I'll file that thought away.

Sherry

I just saw Old Blush's whole-bush photo of Fellenberg. Wow! What a lovely thing. Add that one to your list to consider for me.

Sherry

What about Mons Tillier? Or Rosette Delizy? Some of the teas give you very strong color on a strong plant. Mrs. B. R. Cant is a good idea, too. Love the idea of a strong-colored vigorous bush in the center - think it will look great.

Mme Lambard/Lombard is lovely but does fall victim to moderate amounts of powdery mildew at certain times of the year. That's how we finally decided which of the cemetery roses were definitely Mme Lambard - they all mildewed during the same week.

I will answer your question about Fortune's Double Yellow on the other posting, but it is NOT the rose for this spot!
Anita

Mrs. BR Cant is clearly planning to be 8' across or more here and is absolutely covered with big fat blooms in a nice rich pink-- wonderfully healthy, too. Ours is only in her second year, too, and barely getting six hours of full sun. What a rose! Rosette de Lizy is much more upright, with more modern-looking blooms in a delightful blend-- very pale yellow edged in pink, here. OH! and I also have a "circle" bed and wanted a strong color-- I planted Lavender Dream and it is gorgeous, and a nice compliment to the lilac-y pinks of the teas. I totally understand the dilemma-- have a circle bed at the arboretum with Blush Noisette in the center, and it is surrrounded with Marie Pavie and Little White Pet-- they all are exactly the same color. We had ordered Marie Daly, and the bed would look much better if we'd received the correct rose, sigh...

Lavender Dream's a very nice rose, too.
It's not something I'd plant for cut flowers, but in the landscape,
WOW -- what a workhorse.
It blooms right through the year here, to some extent.
We have not touched it for a good 5 years, but THIS year, I think it
has some dead growth to be removed.
It's pretty big here, if given its head.
Probably not so huge with more winter, and some judicious pruning.

Jeri

Anita, Mons Tillier is about 20' from this spot - and lookin' good. I have Rosette Delizy in the back. I have Mrs B R in the back, too, but on Fortuniana. I'd like to see her on her own roots. That's interesting about Mme Lambard & the mildew. It's something to think about.

Barbara, I'm really leaning toward Mrs B R Cant for this spot. I think there will be room to maneuver around her if she decides to "overlap" the circle and if I choose to let her. But, wow, Barbara, I just looked at Lavender Dream on HMF. That's really a nice rose. How is its disease resistance for you. I'll have to see about this one.

I was going to run out to the nursery tomorrow and get the Mrs B R Cant, but now LD is a possibility. But I would be shocked if Lavender Dream were healthy here since almost nothing is, but I'll do some research.

Barbara, you confirm my instinct about the all white garden. I'm sorry you got the wrong rose. I feel your sigh.

Sherry

You know Sherry -- I think I'd be surprised if LD was NOT disease resistant for you.
It's bred from Yesterday and Nastarana -- an interesting pedigree for an interesting rose.

It's probably not THE rose for everyone, but I like it a lot.
My only real concern is that it might get to wide.

Here, it is the pinky/mauve thing, to the right of Sally Holmes.
(But remember that we haven't pruned it in forever.)

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Jeri

Jeri & Barbara, is LD pretty much a constant bloomer?

Sherry

P.S. Hmmm, Jeri, so beautiful!

It doesn't get big, but if you like color how about some Vincent Godsiffs? I had one in Florida (which I managed to kill before I got it in the ground), and the color on HMF is accurate. It's hot,hot pink. Really gorgeous.

Tee, I was hoping for something leafier than a China. I don't have VG, but I have Cramoisi Superior & Purpurea in the front garden. I have Louis Philippe (2 of them) in the back and love them but they're very open. I wanted something more densely foliated. Thanks for the thought!

Sherry

This isn't hot pink tho.
It's really a soft pinky-mauve.
Sherry, it repeats through the year, and likely would repeat in better volume if it were deadheaded, which it rarely is.

Jeri

That's funny - my chinas are all much more densly foliated than my teas. And both the chinas and teas are more foliated than the noisettes ....
I was going to suggest Jean Bach Sisley as my favorite for a centerpiece, Mary Washington as my 2nd favorite, and Ducher as my 3rd. None of these are my absolute favorite roses, but they would be my top picks for centerpiece status. They are all foliated to the ground, blooms from top to bottom, and continuous bloomers. I love teas, and Mme Lombard is great, but Mme Lombard isn't quite as continuous as the others. At least not yet in my garden, though she is at least 6' x 7' already.
Nastarana isn't particularly healthy in my garden (but none of the noisettes are - I know, that's blasphemy!).
Maggie is one of my favorites, but she's really too big- big is OK, but gawky shoots in every directions is not pretty enough for a showpiece.
Carrie

From someone who has only seen noisettes in pictures, i guess if I could get my hands on one, i'd choose Gloire de Dijohn.
Of course, I'm always slathering over trees like frangipani and I've never seen a real one of those, too. I was just thinking, small tree, 12 feet tall, and sounds like just the spot.
The branches look stout enough to support a small climber in the pictures.

Sherry,

Would you be so kind as to share your nursery information? You have me buzzing with interest.

I am near Tampa and am always searching for another great day trip. Lol.

Thanks in advance,

Veronica

Comtesse du Cayla would work. Mine is kept at 6 ft x 5ft. She doesn't mind shaping, is densely foliated, rarely a speck of disease, blooms continuously, and the colors are all shades of pink, from dark to light, with a touch of yellow/apricot. The individual blooms don't last long, but there are so many that she is still always covered with blooms.

Carol

Mary Washington has a lovely fragrance, but my mom had one in Florida (in Citrus county, not grafted) that didn't stay well foliated, was very open in habit (could've been pruned into a shrub I suspect), and within 3 years declined to the point of shovel pruning. I do think she'd do wonderfully grafted though.

I too am dying of curiosity about which nursery you're using, Sherry! I lived in Citrus county and was always at Color Thyme on highway 44. I may have the spelling wrong. Anyway, they had a ton of OGRs in various size pots from 4 inch to 5 gallons and a few larger. I don't know where you live, but it's worth a trip if you ever visit that area. At least it was. They'd changed owners right before I moved.

Carrie, I already have Jean Bach Sisley on the outer circle in the front. Very good suggestion! Unfortunately, foliated or not, Noisettes all seem to be white. So no deal on them.

Veronica & Tee, OK, I'll tell you which nursery but only because I think I've ruled out Mrs B R Cant due to her immense size. :)) I think she would be way out of scale for my small front yard. I think I need something that can be looked over from the street. It's B & B Nursery in Ocala. They have a supplier of antique roses and generally have a few (usually less than 5 - but healthy.) When I called last week, they had LP, JBS and Mrs BR. They get deliveries on Fridays.

Ya know, Carol, I just yesterday saw a beautiful photo of Comtessa du Cayla, and I have one in a pot. I hope she survives - I've lost 3 roses recently after moving them into bigger pots a few weeks ago. She still has some leaves on her, but even if she doesn't make I'd need to replace her and make her the centerpiece. The size that you mention is doable, the color is great, and being able to shape it makes a difference. Thanks, I like your suggestion.

Still open to ideas though.

Thanks all!

Sherry

Sherry, I don't think I ever went to B&B but was in Ocala all the time. Either way, no worries on my rushing down from Missouri to score that Mrs. B.R. Cant in case you change your mind. ;D Although much to my surprise the OGR situation here in Missouri is worse than it was in Florida so you just never know. :D

Sherry, I don't know if this would work for you and I don't know whether this rose would be big enough, but the absolutely most floriferous rose I have is Single Cerise China. Mine is very young but it is already bushy and is NEVER without blooms. They are single, of course, but really cute, and the bush is very pretty. Of course I have no blackspot or other diseases, and have no idea how it would do in your area. This rose was mentioned by Jeri on the forum when she got hers and I'm more and more pleased with mine. It definitely doesn't have the gawkiness of some of the Chinas. Another rose that was a tight little bush from the get-go (and which is still a baby but blooms a lot) is Le Vesuve, which would definitely get to a good size. I like it very much.

Ingrid

Sherry, do you have a Belinda's Dream? It has flawless foliage for me and blooms a great deal. Another thought is Archduke Charles.

I like Contessa du Cayla a lot; mine is smaller than Carol's but it has beautiful foliage and blooms a lot.

Sherry, Archduke Charles is a lovely china here, but I don't think he'd be large enough as a centerpiece rose. He also will defoliate to some degree at times here, although not as severely as some other roses.

Madame Lambard is very pretty, but as suggested above, she does get some powdery mildew every so often here. She is also very thorny. However, I think she is a lovely choice to include in your collection of roses, if you so desire.

Mrs. BR Cant is probably the best tea rose for Florida. It was interesting to hear that opinion stated by a panel of experienced rosarians at one of the Central Florida Heritage Rose meetings last spring, (as I had already decided that on my own), so it served to reinforce that feeling I had. It would be well worth it to seek out a nice healthy speciman that (hopefully) isn't virused. She would be absolutely superb as a centerpiece in the new bed you are building. In fact, she would be superb if nothing else were in that bed except her. That's how beautiful she is when she is happy. She's the best foliated rose I have, and she has a nice growth habit. She would make an awesome statement.

Maggie will totally defoliate in the summer here, from blackspot, if not on a spray regiman. I also think she is one that would benefit from being on fortuniana.

Belindas Dream is also very pretty, if there is a virus free one available. Even so, there are times when she is not at her best here, although she looks good most of the time. Mrs. BR Cant looks good ALL the time.

Let us know what you decide, and show us pictures!

Sandy

Tee, too bad about the nursery situation in Missouri. Thank goodness for the internet, right?

Ingrid, you have tempted me with SCC. The only problem is its size. Vintage shows it as the smallest china form. But it made me think of Mutabilis, the China. I had one in a pot; unfortunately, it died last week. I wonder if it partially defoliates like LP. And I have LeVesuve on the outer circle, too. We have good taste in roses, don't we, Ingrid? I love that rose and would happily put it in the center. Very green, well foliated and healthy so far - did not defoliate at all this summer, just now getting a few yellow leaves but also putting out new growth. In the ground 7 or 8 months and in the spreading, low growing stage. That might be a really doable, good idea. Do they mind being moved at this stage? It is definitely a rose that could command center stage.

Duchesse, as it happens I have a Belinda's Dream in the back that really should be moved (note through gritted teeth: but I don't want to.) She's not perfectly clean here like Sandy says. Mine is on Fortuniana but from a different source than my others, and she appears not to be virused. She does have gorgeous flowers, but she also has dieback issues. Right now she's a very ugly bush in the back of the bed. (Poor planning.) I hear she gets to be 7x7 here, so that part would be OK. It is a thought... just not a real appealing one at the moment. :))

Sandy, how does Mrs B R Cant accept whacking? And would she need monthly or weekly whacking? I definitely would not want her to be 8' or 10' tall. 6' would be the max. Oh, BTW, I stopped by B&B after work and did not see Mrs B R there. Poo!

Sherry

Sherry, totally off topic, but how's is your purpurea? I bought one as 'winecup' recently and am not at all sure how big it gets. How did yours do this summer?

Yes, I'd have to give up on roses if it weren't for mail order.

Belinda's Dream was one I was going to recommend also. It's funny how different an experience can be because mine was well foliated, healthy, no die back, and a blooming machine all spring/summer/fall. At the time I moved she was five feet tall and had been in the ground maybe two years (on fortuniana). She was at the corner of my very large porch so maybe that protected her from any die back.

I'm not sure how she'd do in Florida, but here The Fairy is a beautiful rose, well foliated and covered all summer with clusters of candy pink blossoms. I've seen her massed and it's a sight to behold.

Sherry, what on earth do you think happened to the roses that died when re-potted?? That is odd. Were these bands that you potted up? The reason I ask is that I have received bands that started dying back at the tips as soon as I took them out of the box. I'd cut them back below the dead portions but it didn't stop the die back and eventually they just died back to the soil. Maybe it wasn't the potting up that did them in but a problem with the rose when you received it?? I call it the creeping black death.

Carol

Sherry, Mutabilis gets to be huge and very tall so it's not a rose I would recommend for that location, although I really love it otherwise. Whacking it back constantly would probably compromise its beauty and besides, that's work!

Isn't it strange that there are thousands of roses and yet we're having such a hard time helping you out? And yet I've encountered exactly the same problem in my own garden when looking for the perfect rose for a specific spot.

Ingrid

Sherry, I don't think Mrs BR Cant would tolerate much whacking back. I wouldn't remove more than a third of the bush at a time, and then only for shaping. After talking with many very experienced people with the heritage rose group, it can cause a tea rose to die if too much of it is cut back. They also tend to not bloom again until they reach their genetically programmed size. Chinas, however, can take a great deeal of pruning back.

Mrs. BR Cant is a gorgeous, well-adapted to Florida tea. However, she needs to be sited where she can be at her best. Her branches will reach out about 10 feet in width, afterwhich you can keep them trimmed back some. I personally wouldn't attempt to keep her smaller than 8x8. In my opinion, she is well worth the garden space, even at the expense of adding other roses. She's a garden in herself!

I LOVE roses, but my list of keepers is definitely getting narrowed down in a no-spray situation. The chinas and Bermuda Mystery roses are among the keepers. Some of the teas are also wonderful, among them Madame Antoine Mari, as she stays fairly "small", but she is very soft in color. The hybrid musk Clytemnestra has stayed almost totally clean and is a good bloomer. However, mine is on fortuniana and is in full sun. Rosette Delizy, who was very neglected in her pot also looks promising. She stayed almost totally clean and still bloomed some. I'm not good with pots, so that says a lot about her. Not sure how long she would live own root here though. I'll have to plant her and find out!

If you have the space, I still vote for a good speciman of Mrs. BR Cant. Her foliage stays attractive, she blooms a lot, and for the most part is self-cleaning. Despite her size, she still has a feminine air about her. If I could only have one tea, it would be her.

Sandy

Duchesse, I've seen Purpurea described as less than 3' and also 6'. Mine is in the ground about 10 months and gives no signs of being large unless it's just waiting to explode. It's a small 2x2 now. Whether this will be true when it's older I don't know, but it stayed leafless for 2 months this summer. It was the prettiest bunch of green sticks you ever want to see. Looked something like Form #2 (but smaller) in Vintage's Hybrid Tea chart. It has leafed out again but hasn't put on any size.

Carol, re "bands that started dying back at the tips as soon as I took them out of the box. I'd cut them back below the dead portions but it didn't stop the die back and eventually they just died back to the soil.", mine didn't start that soon - only after repotting, and I'd had some roses for months. But the rest of what you say is exactly what has happened. It seems to me I did everything I usually had done except that I used some peat - oooohh, wait a minute. I used an oil absorbant recommended on the "Container Gardening Forum" is this mix and in another that I made for a Marie Daley that I was moving to a big pot from the ground. That rose died, too, and quickly (that mix had much more absorbant in it.) I wonder if that was the culprit. The bag even said uses include gardening. Well, I guess I need to dis-pot the surviving roses. Glad you asked, Carol. Maybe this is my answer.

Ingrid, there may be thousands of roses, but probably 80-90% are already eliminated right off the top due to our locations. And now that I've fallen in love with Teas (thanks to the Australian ladies) I find that there aren't enough of them - that can be bought anyway. Of course, if I had planted Pink Pet and The Fairy instead of Marie Pavie and Clotilde Soupert, I could have used Blush Noisette. So our own choices quickly reduce the numbers from which we can choose. And, of course, there's the fact that we're just plain picky people. :))

Sandy, if I could only have one rose, I would also probably choose Mrs B R - unless the only spot I had was the small yard in front of my house. It would be a gorgeous bush out of place, I'm afraid. So I think I'm going to move LeVesuve to this center spot and put Anna Olivier in its old spot - hoping that neither one get as big as they can get or will at least tolerate a little nipping down the road. It still amazes me that Malcolm Manners prunes his Mrs B R Cants at the college down to short sticks every year. I call that whacking!!! I wish he had posted photos of those bushes after their spring growth. After everything I've read here it was a shock to see his after-pruning photos of one-year old plants.

Thanks everyone for all of your input. Your suggestions were all good ones, and I appreciate them.

Sherry

I love Le Vesuve! Good choice. I think you need to get those roses out of that soil ASAP, Sherry. They must not like it :-)I'm glad you figured out what the problem was.

Carol

Sherry, it sounds like you have a good plan. Be sure to post pictures! Malcolm has recently re-done his Mrs. BR Cant bed and the effect is planned to be as though it were all one giant Mrs BR Cant. I can't wait to see that. It should be magnificent. There are some teas that he used to prune severely, and some of them died. I don't recall which ones exactly, and he didn't know if it was the severe pruning or something else. Some of the roses that I know he cuts back severely are some of the floribundas, bourbons, hybrid teas, hybrid musks, and chinas. All of those can take being reduced by half. I know he cuts Reines des Violettes back, although I didn't get the impression that that one was cut back quite as severe. I wouldn't whack back a tea other than to shape it.

Oh, I forgot to mention I have a Pink Pet. It's a must have. Blooms non-stop, keeps its pretty pink coloring, and stays nice and healthy. Mine has a nice rounded form. I'm getting a little bit of defoliation right now, but my roses had gotten overwatered while we were away for a few weeks. We forgot to re-set the auto run on the irrigation system from summer mode, and I heard we had some rain too. (I run the system manually when we are home, and only when I feel things need it). Even so, it's bouncing back with new foliage, and hasn't stopped blooming at all. She does like full sun though. If you like bright, both St. Davids and Vincent Godsif stay attractive no-spray and add lots of color. They actually look nice with Pink Pet. All of these can take pruning as needed, although Malcolm says Pink Pet can get somewhat large if let go. Hmmmm......maybe Pink Pet would work in the center of your bed. She does well here both own root as well as grafted, and you can control her size if need be.

Sandy

Hi Sherry-

Sorry to be late-i've been away for a couple of weeks and just seeing this.

Mrs. Wood's Lavender Pink Noisette can get quite spotty for me. I've had her for about a year, in a pot, so i won't talk about growth habit except to say she was sending out longish canes before i cut her back. She is aptly named as her flowers are a fairly strong pink that favor the blue side of the color spectrum. i found a picture of her once, grown in annb's garden. What i remember is a healthy, vase shaped bush covered in armloads of lavender pink blossoms-i'm sorry i did not bookmark it. Ashdown sells Mrs. Woods as Mount Vernon Purple Noisette. You might consider asking about her under this other name if you are still interested.

I like your idea for this bed. Any closer to making a final selection?

...doesn't show how it reads lavender pink but a good representation of the color intensity i think

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mauirose, thanks so much for that info about Mrs. Wood's Lavender Pink Noisette's spotting. It's a very pretty color. I've decided on LeVesuve. I just hope moving it won't endanger her. It'll be some weeks before I do it. I'm working on the side bed now. Filled up the back - no grass now! Four of the new roses there are iffy, but hopefully they'll be alright now that they're out of that other soil.

Sherry

My girlfriend has a very tall standard with a dark Pierre de Ronsard rose. Its almost the colour of othello but with the shape of Pierre de Ronsard. Its magnificent and such a tall standard would stand out against your lighter booms.
Also I fancy Pat Austin. At tall bush rose. Mine is fantastic and I can admire it easily from the other side of the yard, it is really hardy, continuous blooms and spectacular to look at. It is beautiful, striking, magnificent and has dark rich foliage. I have hardly had to do anything against pests.

Carlina, you have made some gorgeous suggestions that I would give my eye-teeth to have and grow, but, alas, I have no confidence that they would have leaves in my yard. If someone will tell me they grow Eden in Central FL with leaves on it (and flowers), I will buy it - today, but not for that spot. It must look lovely on that tall standard. Thanks for the ideas. I nearly swooned at the sight of their beauty on HMF. What a treat!

Sherry