Sounds like mock orange might be a candidate, marsha. I'm wondering though, if the plant's natural habit has to be horizontal???? Like Alicia says about bermudagrass being the quintessential stolon-child, I've seen other grasses used as examples as well.

Here's a real softcore, uncontroversial word for today: pansy!

It is thought to have come from the French word "pensee" for thought or remembrance.According to Saturday's N & O Garden section, "in the language of flowers, the pansy carries the meaning 'think of me' or 'you occupy my thoughts,'" and "on the flip side, calling someone a 'pansy' could be considered an insult that questions courage or masculinity." Ironic, considering how very courageous and resilient these little faces are in the winter.

regarding the american beech, my husband says it's only the youngsters that retain their whitish leaves all winter. he told me the location of a mature tree (2' diameter) in the woods behind us that drops its leaves in late fall ... i'll be checking on it to verify, and will be sure to note the interesting bark :)
i've got 3 american beeches on my property - volunteers all - trunk diameters only about 3"-4" ... i'll enjoy their pale winter presence as long as i can.

alicia, yes, in my travels to nail down the intricacies of "stoloniferous-ness" i've seen bermuda grass given most often as an example. i'm really puzzled by PDN's labeling buddleia lindleyana as stoloniferous. i'd be inclined to say it's "clump-forming" or something along those lines ... but hey, i'm not a botanist :)
marsha

Marsha,
Maybe when that buddleia gets to a certain age it starts sending out runners?

hmm well, the original plant is 7 yrs old. the PDN catalog says its stoloniferous-ness ceases with age, and i've noticed that the original plant has definitely slowed down in the baby production. the newer plants i've got around the yard are producing babies like crazy. so the age/reproduction aspect seems to be true.

Where are the lurking experts when you need them?? Maybe there is no cut & dried* definition.

* This expression originally alluded to herbs for sale in a shop, as opposed to fresh, growing herbs. [c. 1900]

I re-read your earlier post Martha, and if your plant puts out runners that send up shoots at the surface, then the plant is stoloniferous. How could it then be clump-forming?

I don't know why people keep finding sources on the Web (notoriously unreliable) and thinking those sources trump Dirr.

well, alicia, at that point the most credible source & definition of stoloniferous i'd seen was the ucla definition claire posted ... it states stoloniferous branches are above-ground, period. so, given the above-ground qualification, i had to conclude that the buddleia is not stoloniferous because all its baby-producing action happens below ground. since i can't call it stoloniferous, the closest label i could give it, not being a botonist, was clump-forming.

Well, Marsha, clump-forming means no runners.

Actually your puzzled post came after I put up Dirr's defintion, and he's definitely more credible than a website whose information was probably put in by an over-worked graduate student. Websites, even university websites, are not vetted as thoroughly as publications.

So I'm the one whose puzzled. I was just trying to be helpful, but if this is the reaction I'm going to get, well -- forget it.

but, alicia, if you and dr. dirr say it's stoloniferous, so be it. in the future, i will refrain from pondering, questioning, or thinking out loud in the vocab thread.

STOLONS are aboveground, RHIZOMES are belowground. Bermudagrass does BOTH, BTW. I don't know if these are hard and fast definitions, but that's how I've always understood it. -Ais.

alicia, i was still puzzled because of the depth below the surface at which these branches are formed - they're way down there - at the time, my interpretation of dirr's definition was that the branches are at or *just* below the surface. puzzling, too, is the "roots at the tip" aspect - just doesn't seem to apply to this particular plant. i threw out the "clump" label only because i was at a loss to describe it otherwise - i'll have to get a respectable reference so i can check terms before i make a casual reference to them.

ais, that's certainly easy enough to remember. sure hope it's correct :)

Lighten up, Alicia! We are amateurs and we learn by throwing around ideas and resources in a recreational sort of mode. I take most everything I read and hear, including Dr. Dirr, with a grain of salt. As prestigious as Dirr is, he is not infallible. His work with hydrangeas had led to quite a little debate in the marketplace.

Many of us value your opinion. You are obviously trained in botany. Thank you for posting on this thread and I hope you will continue.

Ais, I didn't know you were more knowledge than Dirr. I'm impressed.

Stolons can be just beneath the ground, BTW. A rhizome is an underground stem distinguishable from a root by the presence of nodes, buds, or scale-like leaves. It often stores food as well. Also, it is not always below the ground, as in the case of a bearded iris.

I'd love to keep arguing about the minutiae of gardening vocabulary words, it's so fascinating, and everyone here is so nice. :)

Actually, my statement about Dirr and the web pages was not meant to be angry -- it's just what I have witnessed. A case of posting being misinterpreted I guess.

Here's an example of web sites being wrong: my cat is sick, so this weekend I went to a veterinary hospital website to see what to do until I could take her to the vet Monday morning. It told me to do the opposite of what I was supposed to do! It didn't hurt my cat, but whoever typed in the data got it backwards. It happens. There is a lot of very valuable information on the web, but it's not always right. Books aren't always right, either, but I still trust them more as a reference.

Ha, I will stand by my defintion of stoloniferous.

Alicia, I said "I don't know if these are hard and fast definitions, but that's how I've always understood it" to indicate that I DON'T think I know more than Dirr or any other expert. So I don't quite think I deserved that barb. I can only guess you thought I was intending to discredit your defintion, which I wasn't. I was actually trying to respond to Marsha's comment "i had to conclude that the buddleia is not stoloniferous because all its baby-producing action happens below ground. since i can't call it stoloniferous" by providing an alternate word "rhizome". And the capitals were just to highlight the words but I guess they could have been taken as emphasis so I apologize. At the risk of sounding more argumentative, my iris rhizomes are belowground. Are they not always? This is a serious question, NOT meant to be cheeky. -Ais.

In my humble opinion, all of this is worth ais using the word "cheeky".

I am in fact trying to be totally cheeky by saying, what is the difference between a CORM and a RHIZOME? STOLON is a German Christmas bread.

And, may I add that my feelings are quite hurt b/c the actual word of today is "pansy," about which there has been not a word of debate!

Get over it pup. I rock. I get an A plus plus for the next word to get as much discussion as the first word "procumbent". Now just try to knock me off my throne. I am holding on tight. Adele

My iris rhizomes are planted on top of the ground, basically. They do better that way, less rot, because the soil in my garden doesn't have great drainage. Most people plant them "like ducks on a pond", with the tops above the ground.

(passing the tiara to Adele and whistling "hail to the vocab. queen") .... as if anyone even remembers who started this "Who's on first" routine about stolons! (ain't it sumpin' what gets us nerds' panties in a ruffle???)

Oh, yes, it was sweet, unassuming plantie Adele...who knew!

Doesn't anyone have a comment to make about pansies???

Keep trying Claire. If you want to stir controversy you can't pick a wimpy word like "pansy".;o) (that WAS meant to be cheeky)
I plant my irises fairly shallowly, just under the surface. But I did drop one in the grass last time I moved them and that one is doing so well I haven't moved it. I followed whatever advice came with them MANY years ago from one of those mail order places (before I knew better). I will keep that in mind next time I divide or move them. -Ais.

claire, i'm at a total loss for any manner of discussion, debate, ponderance or thought with regard to yesterday's word - "pansy" ... all i know is they'll be a most-welcome sight, and something to deadhead, in january :)

my final thought on the previous "stoloniferous" discussion - i do hope for a continuous supply of great terms. i, for one, love the open, verbal dissection and inquisitive nature of this thread, and truly hope that no one is reluctant to present new terms by the unfortunate vitriole that surfaced yesterday.

marsha

Hey, I just googled "garden vocabulary" to see if I could come up with another good term for our word of the day. Try it and see what you get. Adele

Heck, I'm LOOKING for a controversial term!

The word STOLON is now so infamous that it has earned a whole new meaning, unrelated to the plant world (insert your own definition here).

Here is an example of a similar neologistic transformation:
"SILLY meant blessed or happy in the 11th century going through pious, innocent, harmless, pitiable, feeble, feeble minded before finally ending up as foolish or stupid."

We're famous!

New word.
Taxonomy. (not taxidermy)

Mmmmmmmm.......well obviously I should not have gone away for the weekend. What happened? Wow, stolon. I love debate, because that is truly a great way to understand people as well as word definitions. No definition can be hard and fast, because our language is constantly evolving. Words change meaning and we get new words, as the needs we have around communication change and evolve. That's why there are new editions of dictionaries. Plants also change/evolve, and our knowlege (even "expert" knowlege) about plants changes/evolves/expands. We use words VERY IMPERFECTLY to describe and communicate about a world we only understand fractionally yet.

For instance, lots of "experts" like to argue plant classifications. They are highly technical arguments, and the result is that sometimes we see genus/species changed/corrected. All this argument and classification is based on taxonomy. Some quotes on what taxonomy means and how it is used to classify plants:
"Taxonomy is the science of systematically naming and organizing organisms into similar groups. Plant taxonomy is an old science that uses the gross morphology (physical characteristics such as leaf shape, fruit form, etc.) of plants to separate them into similar groups."

But wait, the definition of "taxonomy" is changing:
"The science of plant taxonomy is being absorbed into the new science of systematics. Systematics is based on the evolutionary similarities of plants such as chemical make-up and reproductive features. The development of more sophisticated microscopes and laboratory chemical analyses has made this new science possible."

But wait....we have only begun to sequence the DNA of plants. Once that's done, we will have a whole new basis to see similarities and differences among plants. We will likely have a whole new definition of genus and species - how alike does DNA have to be to be in the same genus? How different do two plants have to be to merit separate species names? Mmmmmmmm....wonder what the DNA segments look like that code for stolons?

Anyway, I didn't realize that we got to sit on a throne (what throne exavtly?), as Adele wrote for having a much-discussed word. No one told me. So I missed my throne time for "procumbent." Bummer. Did I also miss the tiara?

All my grandmother's cats were named "Pansy".

I wouldn't mind being called a pansy. I'd take it as a compliment for being tough and rugged yet beautiful and colorful. I think we should start using the word "pansy" in a positive way, since kids nowadays have no clue that the negative way was ever used.

Nancy the nancedar

This thread has been revealing.

I can't think of anything controversial to say about pansies, either. I like them, all except the black ones. Taxonomists however -- they bug me.

He who snoozes, loses. OK, after Adele has her time with the tiara (ais and I have both worn the over 100 posts diadem...and wore it literally at Niche)she'll have to pass it back to you, Whiny Bren from En.

The throne is optional...it'll probably be a porta-potty...you know, like at Plant Delights!

PS A New York Times reporter said today on NPR (Diane Rehm Show) that the reader often doesn't GET irony. I should be in such good company, but I want to go on record for writing with a wry pen at least half of the time. The poison pen is the one that everyone gets.

I abdicate my throne and tiara - let it not be said that I whined my way to the top! Oh puppyscruff, I just hate Diane Rehm - couldn't you have picked just any other show on NPR? A whiny-nasal voice AND loser guests - boohoo.

Have you ever seen how gorgeous she is? And at 69! It's hard to put that voice with her face after you've seen her picture. Her voice is due to an illness. You can read about it online...she's very open about it.

I like her b/c she is so gracious and well informed. She is my hero...I can never keep my opinions under wraps.

I also like Terry Gross...another one who always presses her guests with that followup question but remains cool. No wonder O'Reilly stormed off!

I have to say Brenda, you may be the only person in the universe who hates Diane Rehm. She has spasmodic dysphonia, and has had treatment, but I don't know how well the treatment worked. She handles the talk show format much better than Neal Conan does.

I heard that show today about Maureen Dowd and Bushworld, ha.

Well, I apologize if it is a medical condition that makes her voice horrible - certainly she can't help that. Amazing still that with a terrible voice and apparently attractive face (per puppyscruff), why is she on RADIO? Anyway, her voice is not my real complaint. I enjoy every personality on NPR except DR - the few times I have heard the show (now I turn the station), her guests/callers have expressed opinions I consider ignorant or intolerant (rather than just a different opinion from my own), with no response from DR. The one I remember most is some 20-something from San Fran calling in to say that we should just leave New Orleans underwater and abandon it, since it's partially below sea-level. DR was like - yes, you have a point there. I wanted to call in and ask if we should inform Miss Generation-X that we plan to abandon San Francisco once the big quake hits because it is built on a major fault you know! What blather. Anyway, I'm sure I'm not the unique human in the world who hates her, Alicia, I'm just not that special.

Oh sorry, I meant not the only person in the UNIVERSE, not just the world. My mistake. Ooops.

Ha, your mistake all right. :) This thread is revealing more and more!

Well, I like her show too. Not always all the guests and certainly not all the callers. On many of the shows on NPR the callers really peeve me with their ignorance and shortsightedness, and are often offensive to the guests on the show. But they have the right to their opinions too I guess. Sometimes it's the guests who peeve me too. I like to hear and try to understand differing opinions, but I reserve the right to change the channel too. -Ais.

Yes, I know what you mean, ais. It's like I try to tell my husband about people driving their cars on the highways...it's a cross-section. He is so often aghast at how they drive and behave on the roads. What can you expect from such a mishmash of types. It's the same on a call-in show. Why wouldn't you want to hear all kinds of views. DR is polite to everyone...she's not a Fox-y lady.

As far as New Orleans goes, whenever there is a flood and federal insurance kicks in, there is ALWAYS that point of view that surfaces regarding not allowing people to rebuild. I lived on the waterfront in MA for most of my life, so I know from experience. It's a point of view I don't agree with at all, but one that is not all that radical. Even though N.O. became a sacred cow like NYC after the disaster, I still heard that idea in several forums. As far as I know, the First Amendment is still in place.

What I thought was so much worse was Barbara Bush running her mouth at the height of the misery about how poor New Orleans residents might as well stay in Texas, b/c they had nothing in their hometown anyway. That's what I call insensitive and clueless.

HEY!!!! I thought this was about vocabulary???? Well, under the thread of "Favorite NPR on air personality", I have no idea why but I like Michelle Norris, probably just from the familiarity of hearing over the years:
"And I'm Mee-shell Norris" lol

Hey, mtindixie, don't try to start a stolon with me!

I have never been a talk radio listener til recently, but I agree that there is something more intimate about a voice than all the screen personalities we are bombarded with.

My mom, who was born in '13, loved Arthur Godfrey. I always thought it was pretty hokey to hear her go on about him. He was no "sexiest man alive!" So now, I think I'm fairly hip for someone my age (mom's age now), but I have to confess that Garrison Keillor's voice has me at 'hello,' and I really don't care what he looks like.

mt -
we take little side-trips from time to time :)

as far as npr goes, i listen to it all (except
back porch music nights & people's pharmacy).
i do admire DR's ability to remain gracious no matter what element of the "cross-section" calls in. and i couldn't live without the bbc news, "car talk", "wait, wait don't tell me", "this american life", and Garrison. i'm certain my laughter, when i'm working in the yard alone, is the talk of the cul-de-sac :)

Here's one I came across while researching mtindixie's clethra question:

RACEME An inflorescence having stalked flowers arranged singly along an elongated unbranched axis, as in the lily of the valley

Would a delphinium and a foxglove also be considered
racemiferous,( a. bearing racemes). racemiform, (a. like raceme), or racemose, racemous. Take your pick! I'm unfamiliar with toadflax.

Here is a link that might be useful: inforescence styles

pup, great site you've directed us to.
out of insatiable curiosity, i checked on delphiniums - check the TERMS on THIS page to describe the delphinium!
mercy.

Here is a link that might be useful: delphinium - technically described

Yes, I guess it is. The word "raceme" is used.

It seems that another descriptive is the opening of flowers from bottom to top of the stalk, as foxglove do.

Hey, I just stumbled upon this discussion, and I have to say that you guys are awesome! As my own little tribute to the foregoing, I think it incumbent upon me to throw out a word of the day: "dioecious."

There just aren't a lot of words in the language exhibiting an i-o-e grouping.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dioecious

Great term, "landscaping," from my native state of MA! Of course I thought of hollies first, but discovered a few more, even some veggies.

Word comes from the Greek for "two houses." Not such a bad idea to have one's spouse in a separate abode.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone on Garden Web, Carolina Gardening and elsewhere!

Here's a word that may spawn some discussion: Cultivar, a cultivated variety. Sounds simple enough, but what is it exactly? The definition doesn't seem to be fixed. A variety is "a subdivision of a species having a distinct though often inconspicuous difference, and breeding true to that difference. More generally refers to clones."

There was a question about a serviceberry on the Shrubs Forum recently, and someone who posted on this thread said that a named variety may not be a clone but rather a selection from a whole similiar collection of plants, which could fit the definition of a cultivated variety, if those plants breed true. However, I thought this was rather confusing. For example, if I bought the sweetshrub "Athens", I would expect it to be a clone of the same plant that Mrs. Symmes introduced to Michael Dirr, or at least have all of the same attributes that the plant is valued for. I would not be happy with a green-flowered plant with no fragrance for example (which is what I got when I bought an "Athens").

I'm one who tends to say "cultivar" when I'm not really sure if it may be a "variety," which is a naturally occuring variation on the species.

If Mrs. Symmes hybridized sweetshub and developed a fragrant type, then it's a cultivar. If she discovered it in her garden and propagated clones sexually with seeds (the offspring of which were true), it's a "variety."

As a consumer, I would definitely bring the discrepancy to the attention of the purveyor of nonfragrant sweetshrub 'Athens.'

Mrs. Symmes had a plant that was propagated from cuttings probably, as sweet shrub is not always pleasantly fragrant from seed, not matter how wonderful the parent.

I expect a named cultivar to be a clone, since named ones usually have a whole set of traits, not all of which may breed true.

OMG, so glad I'm not the only one that got conned into buying Athens only to find it so disappointingly scentless!

And Puppy, I'll pick a stolon with you if I feel like it, LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you buy a "named" variety OR cultivar, it should be a clone. What a bummer that you guys didn't get what you were supposed to. So the difference is that a variety is naturally occuring whereas a cultivar is intentionally cultivated? That makes sense. Either way, it wouldn't seem that seedlings shouldn't be sold as their "named" parents. I mean only clones are exactly the same. I'd have a "stolon" to pick with the people that sold me those 'Athens'. LOL Maybe we need to change the title of this thread to "garden slang" and start making up our own words and definitions. -Ais.

I'm not in the mood for a stolon today, but give me a little time to recover from all that cooking. I'll be feisty again soon.

Been mulling all this over, pulling out my MG manual, which is of little use at these hair-splitting moments.
It seems to me that propagation from seed would not guarantee an identical offspring. Seed must have to undergo rigorous testing to assess whether the offspring have all the desirable characteristics and no new bugaboos.

Here is a link that might be useful: plant cloning