Thanks for all of the photos, Dax! It's nice to see the conifer's winter colors.
Mike

You're welcome man. Cheers, Dax

Hi Dax,

You put a lot of time in these 3 new topics about your Rich's Foxwillow adventure!

Abies koreana x Abies lasiocarpa 'Waldgrenze' is the true name.
'Glauca' is never possible because this cultivar isn't that old and the founder (Mr. Kurt Wittboldt-Mler from Germany) of this selection is very welknown with the todays nomenclature.

The name of the Abies alba 'Contorta' is not correct and must be Abies alba 'Green Spiral' aka Abies alba 'Tortuosa'

Abies x koreocarpa 'Waldgrenze'

Looking at that Abies concolor 'Heard', I think I will be dumping my few young grafts if that's as good as it gets, I was under the wrong impression it originated from a witches' broom. Anyone here know anything about Abies concolor 'Brady #1' and 'Brady #2' ?

Thanks Clement. I thought I had stumbled onto something of significance.

Stephen, I hadn't thought of koreocarpa, however yes. Unfortunatley there's a cultivar used in the cross to obtain this selection. Using Abies koreana x lasiocarpa 'Glauca' defines the name of the plant. Any suggestions? I don't think there is one, myself. If we keep koreocarpa, then lasiocarpa as the tree being used to accept the pollen is forever lost.

'Heard' - well I would't rely on one photo to make a call. God only knows how many times that tree might have been pruned on, moved in and out of shade, and other things I can't think of. I accept it as being worthy alone because it is a concolor. I'm gonna keep mine.

Best Regards- - -

Dax

Hi Dax and Stephen,

I while ago in another topic someone mentioned that the names Abies x lasiokor or x koreocarpa aren't possible because the name must be used of one of it's parents.
I think that these are fantasy names which mentioned correcly both the parents.

A couple of years ago Mr. Kurt Wittboldt-Müller published a book (Tannen-Atlas) about his own selections and crosses between several Abies species.
The 'Waldgrenze' is one of his crosses and the name he gave to this variety is Abies x koreana 'Waldgrenze'.
This is the first name given to this plant and is the one that we must use.

Shaking my head in minor frustration, hear me out: . . . we know the parents ... therefore why not keep a detailed name. However, when I grow cultivar seedlings of Acer palmatum, shirasawanum, japonicum - I use his exact naming process. For example I write:
Acer x Acer palmatum 'Seiryu' (knowing the parent was Seiryu) because that's the only infirmation attainable at that time beings since I haven't cross-pollinated, manually.

It's unfortunate I believe
Dax

Edwin - I have Mr Kurt Wittboldt-Muller listing this plant as Abies koreana 'Waldgrenze' (Abies koreana x Abies lasiocarpa 'Glauca'), well before the publication of his book. Relying on first name given doesn't always seem to hold up. I would have thought Abies x koreana 'Waldgrenze' doesn't tell us that it is a cross between two Abies species, whereas Abies x koreocarpa does, and the combination seems to work very well.
I would say that x cupressocyparis leylandii would be a good similar example. I have to say though this is all just purely my opinion.

This gives me a little more peace of mind. It was forwarded via email from Clement:
Abies koreana x 'Waldgrenze'
{{gwi:654889}}

Thanks Clement,

Dax

Surely Abies koreana x 'Waldgrenze' does not tell you what the cross is, could that just as easily denote a cross between two Abies koreana cultivars. Whereas a new hybrid name Abies x koreocarpa tells you exactly that the cross is between Abies koreana and Abies lasiocarpa....or am I completely wrong in my way of thinking here ..?

In my opinion, the name Abies x koreocarpa are very appropriate by the combination of the 2 names.
By this way anybody have a doubts about the parents.
Clément

This is the article a was searching for, it was Pineresin who told me that names such as Abies x koreocarpa are not possible.

Yes, I think it is possible, if the name has been validly published. What pinresin said was, all hybrids between any pair of species must bare the same name. So it would have to be one or the other, either Abies x koreocarpa, or Abies x lasiokor

That's the problem here, the name Abies x koreocarpa was never validy published.
Please let me know if it is.

On the other hand I like the following names very much:
-Abies x koreocarpa (A. koreana x A. lasiocarpa)
-Abies x lasiokor (A. lasiocarpa x A. koreana)
-Abies x procekor

The first specie name shows the motherplant were the cones came from, which is in my opinion very important to know.
I use these names at my website if I have these availlable.
This year I have availlable Abies x koreocarpa 'Fürstenburg'.

I also have the following Abies crosses listed:
Abies koreana x Abies pinsapo 'Zipfelmütze'.
There's never a name published for this cross.
Should it be named Abies x koreapo 'Zipfelmütze?

Abies grandis x 'Leuteneggeri'
This one is also from Germany but this name doesn't show us that the cross is between an Abies grandis and an Abies concolor.
A better name should be Abies grancolor 'Leuteneggeri'
Btw this is a very nice cultivar, it looks like a blue Abies grandis!

The name Abies x vilmorinii doesn't show us that this is a cross between Abies pinsapo and Abies cephalonica.
Maybe Abies x pinsonica was better...

Final conclusion:
The original name for the 'Waldgrenze''(which means 'Forest Border') is Abies koreana x 'Waldgrenze'.
A better name should be Abies x koreocarpa 'Waldgrenze'
Maybe there must be new nomenclature rules to make it clear which the parents of these crosses are.
Till now both the parents names can't be found in a lot of crosses.

Yes, I agree with all you guys. I just think if a name is going to be abbv. that a good description should be also added. Of course to avoid all confusion we can write:

Abies x koreocarpa 'Waldgrenze'
(Abies koreana x lasiocarpa 'Glauca')

Simple enough!

Dax

Edwin, another point here, from my info, it is by no means certain that Abies alba 'Tortuosa' and 'Green Spiral' were ever the same plant.

Hi Stephen,
Please give us your info, I'm very curious what you have to tell us.

Hi Edwin,
Here is the info I have:
The International Conifer Register - part 1
Abies alba 'Green Spiral' - Welch 1979, origin Secrest Arboretum, Wooster, Ohio, USA. (as 'Tortuosa'), stems vertical, twisted in a wide spiral, with short branches directed downwards in short curves, leaves shorter and more densly arranged, dark green.
Abies alba 'Tortuosa' - shrubby dwarf, with dense twisted branches and short bright green leaves. See Welch, 1979, page 141: more than one clone may be involved. See also Abies alba 'Nana'.
Manual of dwarf Conifers - Welch 1979, page 141. Abies alba 'Green Spiral' - This is the name given here to a pendulous form of which two trees planted in 1916 in the Secrest Arboretum at Wooster, Ohio, USA, were long grown as 'Tortuosa', but the possibility that these represent the ultimate development in that reputedly dwarf variety is very remote......

I'm quite sure (back to Contorta) my photo of 'Contorta' is 'Green Spiral' - although none of my reference books list any 'Contorta'. Google shows a Green Spiral that has the same type of look as my photo. 'Conifers The Illustrated Encyclopedia' has a 'Green Spiral' photo that has zero, similarity. I want to know I'm doing the right thing. Edwin, do you have a reference for your previous information for me?

If at all anything, my photo more closely resembles A.alba 'Pendula' from CTIE.

Thanks Edwin, your word is good enough, but I'd like to ask once more because I'll probably propagate it at some time or another... and, I cannot have the wrong name on a plant. This will give me some peace of mind.

Dax

Hi Stephen,
Thanks for your info, it made me do some investigation about these differend names and you are partly right, but...they are differend.

This is what I found in the book "Cultivars of Woody Plants" by Laurence C. Hedge:
Abies alba 'Green Spiral'
habit: Vigorous, semi pendulous and spiraled to lightly contorted.
Colour: a glossy rich green.
Orginated: Secrest Arboretum OH USA received in 1916 from the Baltimore Nursery NC USA as 'Tortuosa'.
The true 'Tortuosa' is slow to dwarf and more erect.

Abies alba 'Tortuosa':
Habit: Dwarf to compact, branches twisted and usually ascending.
Colour: A glossy dark green.
A plant once sold under 'Tortuosa' in the U.S is now 'Green Spiral'

This last rule says that all the plants in the U.S. sold as 'Tortuosa' are in reality 'Green Spiral'!

Dax mentioned the name 'Contorta' which is a synonym for 'Tortuosa'.
The plant at his photo's shows us a weeping habbit, typical for 'Green Spiral'

The true 'Tortuosa' is from Germany and was found in 1838 by J Booth & Sons, Flottbeck Nursery, Hamburg and is rare in cultivation.

Edwin,
My point is that the true 'Tortuosa' is likely to be a different plant to 'Green Spiral', so should not be regarded as aka, syn, or the same as 'Green Spiral', even if all the plants listed in the US as 'Tortuosa' turn out to be 'Green Spiral'.

I think Edwin still cleared things up nicely.

Seems to me that Conifers The Illustrated Encyclopedia - shows us Tortuosa for their photo of Green Spiral!!!! Not-LOL ;0) This is a no win for any of us until we were to see the stock plant, ...at this very moment. My photo is Green Spiral and the rest is, non-verifiable-at-this-point-in-time, confusion. The stock plant is the answer, what else can we do, right?

Regards Stephen, Regards Edwin,

Dax