Ricky, I've read this several times trying to make sense of it. I think you have used the word "garden" where I would say "landscape." Why don't you post this on the garden writers forum: I'm sure they would enjoy debating the exact meaning of the words. And besides, that forum needs a kick start.

Well, I am a collector AND a gardener. I am a collector because I like to grow plants that are completely out of my zone and I can't make them into a "garden" without a greenhouse.

But at the same time, I have "gardens" all over my 5 acres up by the house that are tended every bit as lovingly as the more unusual and expensive plants in the 'collection'.

My earlier, ignorant, collections of all-the-fruiting- plants-I-lusted-after, has evolved into a young garden, spread around our acreage.

I'm still learning how to make deciduous trees mix in well with evergreens, and how to balance sun and shade. I move plants as needed, and have made lots of mistakes.

But, I have several areas that I'm pleased with.

My *collection* of fruiting plants is slowly evolving into a pleasing garden and landscape.

I don't think that "collecting" is a bad term. I do now understand that blending collections into an overall plan is something to strive for. I added plants that I felt were pretty useless, such as colorful foliage plants (crotons), flowering trees, flowering shrubs, and butterfly attractors. And I learned, that they really added to a garden!

After visiting the incredible Fairchild Gardens, I know I still have a lot of work to do! (G)

I really enjoy seeing the gardens of others. They are an inspiration!

Lisa

Interesting debate. I'm not sure of the point of this post either, though. I just wonder why you'd write something so condescending to begin with. At least, it came off as sounding condescending when I read it. Polite, yet condescending. I just worry it makes the Florida Forum seem unwelcoming. "Hey, all you people with absolutley no artistic ability according to me, don't bother posting pictures to this forum". Dang. That seems harsh.

In my opinion, there really isn't anything wrong with newbies seeing a wide range of gardening styles when they come to this forum. This is the Florida Gardening Forum - not landscape design, not potager, not cottage. Though, some of us are landscape designers. Some of us have potagers. Some of us have cottage gardens. Some of us have collections. It's all good. And it's all worth sharing. All of it. Every single one of them.

I am an artist by trade and by hobby. I think I have a strong sense of aesthetics. But aesthetics/beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right? Someone might think my garden is a delight, someone else might think it's crap. But whether it's a delight, or crap, it's a garden all the same.

Gardening is the most rewarding creative outlet for me, bar none. I don't have a degree in landscape design. I don't do it for a living. I do it for the hard work, the sweat, the problem solving, the challenge, the joy, the frustration, the fruits and the labor. I do it because I love it, and I hope someone who perhaps feels a little shy about their garden isn't put off by your declaration of inadequacy that they may feel is aimed directly at them. I sure hope your post hasn't discouraged someone from the joys of gardening.

I say to all of you, post your garden photos! Whether your garden is an incohesive collection of plants you love, or your garden is crammed on a balcony, or your garden is confined to one single container, or your garden is the kind that would make Gertrude Jekyll green with envy, show it off. You never know what's going to inspire someone. You never know what someone will learn from it.

So basically, my opinion is this forum should be a welcoming place to gather information and inspiration for gardeners of all skill levels. It's all good.

Nicki

You rock, Nicki!

Marcia

Ricky's post lured you back to the forum, Nicki! Welcome back. :-)

Nicely said, Nicki!

Like I posted earlier: ...if you put plants in the ground and tend them ... it's gardening and you are a gardener.

(I keep wondering if Ricky really said what he meant to say or if there's a typo involved.)

Kate

Hi Florah! I secretly lurk sometimes. ;-)
I just have to see what everyone's doing in their gardens. I enjoy the photos so much - no matter what kind of garden, or what stage a garden is in. I just love it.

"if you put plants in the ground and tend them ... it's gardening and you are a gardener"
I agree, Kate!

Thanks, Marcia. ;-)

Gardening can be for "the little people", too. A garden in every pot! Or plot! Let them eat tomatoes! Or cake. In the garden. I like cake...

Since a garden by definition is a planned space for growing and enjoying plants, I think most collectors probably meet the minimum criteria. However, if by garden you are referring to something Raymond Jungles or the late Burle Marx might create, then obviously that's a completely different thing.

While I am a collector, I beleive I have a pretty impressive garden that will inspire my visitors, whether hardcore plant guys or just every day folks. My garden takes into account all five senses and attempts to display the diversity and beauty in tropical plants.

I really think a garden can be just about anything you want to make of it, whether its growing Orchids in a shade house or growing a small vegetable garden in your backyard.

I've been on this forum for a long long time. Mostly just lurk now.

IMO you should just crown him king of the forum, anoint and then fawn over his garden (/snark) and be done with it. Nothing personal Rick (you have a nice garden, not my taste but nice!!)

Personally, I love all posts, especially the veggie ones since I can't keep those, indoor plants nor grass alive.

I'm a collector as much as a gardener. Whatever that means. I lose my inspiration thinking too hard about it. bummer

"My parents grow vegetables for food - nothing artsy and inspiring, but rather aimed at the highest yield. My father is an agricultural engineer and applies his knowledge well to grow food to eat".. ME TOO!

{{gwi:854634}}

and all along I thought this was a garden! Guess I didn't know what a garden was until Ricky defined it for us :>)

Splat! OOh, those tomatoes are flying! Good debate. I'll throw in my 2 pennies. A garden can be any size, have flowers, veggies, or whatever. For a plot of land or a property to be named '___ Gardens', it must have visual appeal and be very artistic and wel planned. Like, I would not call my place 'Featherhoof Gardens' because it does not deserve such a title. I do consider myself a gardener. I have a garden. I tend my land and care for my plants. I collect my seeds and map out the times of the year to plant them(which in itself is an art). Gardeners are collectors by nature. If I planted a collection of something, my hands still get dirty- I'm still gardening.

Hi
All these answers and not a single plea for guidlines on how to pull away from our collector evil ways lol
I for one would love to whip my collection into a cohesise unit if for no ther reason than to make care easier. Are there any books on how to do it?? most that I look at are geared toward yard functions other than growing plants. For example at what point does a garden become a rock garden . How many sculptures before it's a sculpture garden?? I don't want patios ,fire pits blurring the lines between indoors and outdoors.lol I want a place to grow as many kinds of plants as possible while not breaking my back. I've evn reduced my self to watching HGTV lol. Where I think the guiding principle
"What can we do to make this redo as expensive as possible?? Most of these are so overdone with features there's no room for plants. Not one program has been centered on collections?? I would admit that many of these are fantastic "landscapes" but certainly not "gardens" has there ever been one program on gardens with a single species?? Such as Rose gardens?? Daylilies palms ,cycads?? Another problem most don't apply to my zone and those that are I particularly disagree with "Easy care" lol
Any thoughts on this?? gary

Well Gary, Ricky has a pdf file on this very subject. The GW search engine can't seem to handle more than 1 word and the file wouldn't let me cut and paste BUT
if you go here
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/flgard/msg0123195023203.html
go to Ricky's reply and click on the link.
let me know if this works.

After placing Rickys post under a high powered microscope and dissecting each word and syntax believe that I have uncovered the meaning and purpose of his expose. Therefore please allow me to attempt to muddy the waters, clarify them or stir them into a myriad of waves and foam as I begin my own dissertation on the subject. LetÂs begin by offering the official definition of a garden, a gardener and a collector. A garden is a word that serves as a noun and entered the English language around the 13th century. Here is the Webster Dictionary etymology and definition of a garden: Middle English gardin, from Anglo-French gardin, jardin, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German gart enclosure  Date: 13th century

1 a: a plot of ground where herbs, fruits, flowers, or vegetables are cultivated b: a rich well-cultivated region c: a container (as a window box) planted with usually a variety of small plants

2 a: a public recreation area or park usually ornamented with plants and trees b: an open-air eating or drinking place c: a large hall for public entertainment

Thus almost anything that is grown is considered a garden.

A gardener is a word that serves as a verb and was brought into the language around 1577. Here once again is WebsterÂs definition of a gardener: intransitive verb: to lay out or work in a garden transitive verb 1 : to make into a garden 2 : to ornament with gardens

It can also be utilized as a noun. I am a gardener. The word gardener has several meanings and if you go back to the definition of a garden then a gardener can be a person who collects three specific plants and grows them in a container and thus they have a garden.
A collector is a noun that was born in the 14th century and has several meanings. Once again we will defer to Webster: one that collects: as a: an official who collects funds or moneys b: a person who makes a collection c: an object or device that collects d: solar collector

Therefore a collection is a noun that appeared in the 14th century and once again we will allow Webster to give the definitive definitions: 1: the act or process of collecting

2 a: something collected ; especially : an accumulation of objects gathered for study, comparison, or exhibition or as a hobby b: group, aggregate c: a set of apparel designed for sale usually in a particular season

A landscape is another word we need to address and according to Webster our main source of information who has made a lifeÂs work of collecting words and their history and definitions into a book we use for reference here is the word: Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Dutch landschap, from land + -schap -ship
Date: 1598
1 a: a picture representing a view of natural inland scenery b: the art of depicting such scenery

2 a: the landforms of a region in the aggregate b: a portion of territory that can be viewed at one time from one place c: a particular area of activity : scene 3obsolete : vista, prospect

Thus a landscaper is: Function: verb
nflected Form(s): land·scaped; land·scap·ing
Date: 1914

transitive verb : to modify or ornament (a natural landscape) by altering the plant cover intransitive verb : to engage in landscape gardening

Finally we need to discover the definition of landscape gardening which is: Function: noun
Date: circa 1763

a person who is engaged in the development and decorative planting of gardens and grounds

An artist by definition is: Function: noun
Date: circa 1507

1 aobsolete : one skilled or versed in learned arts barchaic : physician carchaic : artisan 12 a: one who professes and practices an imaginative art b: a person skilled in one of the fine arts3: a skilled performer ; especially : artiste4: one who is adept at something

Now that we all know the terminology as we would not wish anyone to be confused this is my OPINION on what all this means: anyone who plants and tends anything whether in the ground, window box, pot, etc has a garden and the act of tending to that garden makes you a gardener. You can be a gardener and collector at the same time because anything you collect whether it is art or a numerous variety of plants or one plant makes you a collector and what you have is a collection of plants. When you look at your yard or garden you are looking at a landscape and if you develop a plan and do decorative plantings then you are performing landscape gardening. When you are skilled in imaginative or interpretive design or you are educated in a certain area such as landscape design then you are an artist. Therefore we are all gardeners, collectors of plants, landscapers and artist the definition and clarity is in the interpretation by the person viewing the garden, landscape, etc. Now that we have the terminology down there should be no confusion by newbieÂs or oldies and we should be able to share our creative work whether it be a single blossom or the entire scene. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

If I can be as bold as to offer my opinion on RickyÂs discourse it was to say that he grows weary of looking at individual blossoms and would rather see the overall picture of your garden. Thus that single blossom may be your entire garden but it is by definition a garden. Ricky is skilled in landscape design and takes pleasure in maintaining a highly creative and varied garden while focusing on his passion of crotons. If he were to focus solely on crotons and have a garden made up only of crotons it would still be a collection and a garden. A botanist is a person who studies a plant, plant life or certain plants and that also makes us all botanist. Just thought I would enter a little education into this discussion so that we would not be bandying words around in a loose context. Linda

That address works just fine, Coffeemom, but here's a direct link to the same article: ...Tyranny of the Plants

Whether you like Ricky's initial posting on this forum or not, the article does a good job of setting some guidelines to design a garden. Many of the concepts are those we offer as advice to new members of the Florida Forum when they ask about plants. How do you want to use your yard? What should you focus on first?

Gary, I'm sure your evil collector ways result in a beautiful garden, no matter how you set it up! LOL

Kate

That's a great article by Ricky and I think probably more relevant to someone that just wants a nice looking and well planned out yard. That document really is not going to do much to help someone that has a collection turn it into aesthetically pleasing garden.

I know the challenges of taking a collection and turning it into a garden. I started out as a Palm only collector and over the years I assembled a +200 species collection of palms. No matter how I laid them out, it never looked like anything more then a nursery. I became so frustrated with the process that I ended up hiring a consultant that designs and builds almost nothing but gardens for collectors. While his services are expensive, it is the best money I have spent in my garden.

When this guy came in we sat down and laid out the master plan for the garden. Not what specific plants go where but how the garden should flow and the types of plants that should be in each bed or sub-garden. We then attached names to each of the 10 garden areas that described its theme or location. We talked about plants in terms of shape, texture, and color and then placed them in each garden depending on the characteristics of each sub-garden and the needs of the plants (shade, full sun, acidic soil vs alkaline, etc). We (actually me and DW) also put all the plants into a database and tagged them so that they can be referenced easily and so that we don't duplicate buy. The database is a huge plus when a visitor asks about a particular plant. I just print out a data sheet on it and they can take it with them.

The best thing that came out of hiring this guy was that he broadened my horizons immensely that I no longer consider myself just a palm collector and instead tell people I collect tropical plants and that the goal of my garden is to show off diversity.

One of the coolest things we designed in the garden was to include exotic fruiting trees so that a garden tour includes offering a visitor the taste of a fruit they have probably never heard of or tasted. The plants were selected so that we have at least one tree fruiting every month of the year except November and December.

To this day I am still adding plants but I am much more selective to what goes into the garden. Instead of me having to go to every sale and nursery tracking down plants I want, my consultant has a list and when he comes accross something on it, he'll buy it for me. This actually is a huge savings by stopping me from impulse buying and forces me to stick to the plan. I still do buy palms and I challenge him to find places for them.

When people walk in my garden today for the first time, its a very overwhelming experience for them. The best compliment though is when someone that never had an interest in plants, catches the plant bug as a result of seeing my garden.

I would say the biggest negative to my garden is the cost of maintaining it. I would guess this is probably the one thing that most people overlook. Its not just the effort of pruning and weeding, its things like fertilizer, pesticides, fungicides, testing, mulching, etc. I also know my garden during the dry months can consume huge amounts of water. If someday SoFla Water Management starts metering and charging for ground/lake water extraction, that could be a big expense for me. Worst of all, I realize that all of this maintenance and cost could end up being a huge negative when I do decide to sell my home some day.

I apologize for my lngthy and stupid discourse. Ricky is the expert and has every right to voice his opinion. I am not truly a gardener as I only have pots to work with so I am not going to weigh in on anymore gardening discussions. It has been nice sharing time with each of you and enjoying your gardens and dreaming of my own. I can do a lot with pots but just so much. I truly do not belong amongst you who have such beautiful gardens so enjoy and happy gardening or collecting or whatever. Linda

Linda - not sure what made you feel so bad but I'm sure no one here thinks you don't belong.
Kate

kitchenshock,
Can you post pictures of your garden?

Linda,
Pots are great, too. I'd love to see your pots.

Oh I'm so confused! My garden? is so far from a work of art. But it is also far from a collection. I find that individual plant or flower will qualify as being art. But my group or groups of plants have no rhyme or reason. However I'm happy!

Linda,If I don't see you posting,I will hunt you down and
pull your ears,both.
Now who cares what any body here thinks what a gardener is or is not. We all do what we do for our pleasure,I hope.
If any one here,gets a kick out of intimidating others or pretending that their opinion is the only valid opinion then they either have a perennial problem in which case he needs help and needs our prayers. On the other hand,if he
has an annual problem then he must be going through
something and needs our prayers and understanding. It may be malt liquor that is at the root of the problem.
Please let's be more gentle with each other. People here have feelings. Some have been bruise in life so much that
gardening and coming here is a balm. So abrasiveness is not permitted here. The information is not abrasive but
the condescending way that is presented.
Felix

Hey Fawnridge,

I am a little confused, I was under the impression that when my wife asked me to build her a garden that is what I did. And if you have an active garden that you were maintaining then that must mean you are gardening. According to your post we are simply collecting plants and therefore what I had made for my wife is a giant plant display case? What then defines a garden and a gardener? And how do we, as misguided collectors, gain the title of gardener?

well said Felix

Good luck with your gardens... everyone.

I sure hope no one takes anything I posted as condescending. That is the last thing I want to be. I hope in my last post that I did not come across that I agree with the idea that your garden has to be artistic to be considered a garden. As far as I am concerned, if you grow plants in a defined area, you have a garden and you are gardening, which makes you a gardener. But then again what the heck do I know? The bottom line is, I love gardening and collecting and it is my escape from the stress that owning a businses puts in my life, especially in this wonderful economy. I have probably gone a little to the extreme in the whole gardening thing, but its because I get so much enjoyment out of watching it mature and change every day.

florah I have to admit I am more like the people that post the pictures of the individual plants then the plant in the garden setting. I guess as a collector at heart, its the plant that impresses me most and its setting is really just to show it off. I actually liked the bromo throw down thread and the threads that show the individual blooms. I also love the vegetable garden threads. I have immense respect for those of you that can grow food, as I have tried to grow vegetables and found it a heck of a lot harder then growing this tropical stuff.

Anyhow, I have lots of single plant pictures, but not a lot of what you would call garden shots I guess. I am also a lousy photographer (I blame the camera) when it comes to landscape shots. They never impress me all that much. Maybe one day I can host one of those swaps and you guys can see it first hand. I also don't want to hijack this thread with pictures of my garden, so here is a picture that kind of gives you an idea of what its like.

This is a view from the Lagoon garden to the Rock garden (sorry about the torch in the way, like I said I stink at landscape photography):

kitchenschock,
Wow, that is some amazing garden. You are playing in a different league from mine.:-)

I really think Ricky likes to stur the pot, he enjoys knowing what everyone thinks makes a garden or a prized collection.
Everyone here is a gardner and a collector. Weither we do it right, the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Kitchenshock, your garden is breathtaking! And I found your post to be very informative. Not condescending in the least. Thank you for sharing how one would go about planning a garden like yours with the aid of a professional.

Linda, surely no one took exception to your responses here? I thought them completely valid. And I also think a Potted Garden (not to be confused with a POT garden) is still a GARDEN. As your definitions of the words prove.

Felix, once again you have posted with feeling and with wisdom. Prayers just MIGHT be in order for folks who feel they need to step on others to make a point. I will never know why opinions are presented as fact, but hey, that's just ME, and MY opinion. Some apparently agree, and some do not, and that's okay with me, too.

Hope everyone finds time to be outside in their GARDEN this weekend. Growing things. Digging in the dirt. Gardening.

Marcia

Wanda662 said..."I really think Ricky likes to stir the pot,"

I concur. You can't have a wizzing contest without other wizzers.

I started coming here 10 years ago. Names have changed, people have come and gone and yet occasionally the slinging still persists, what a shame. I used to have a lot of fun here but now I feel like an outsider and keep more to myself. My life has its share of stress and hardships no need to look for more.

I keep my bromeliad/orchid collection on the balcony, and the garden is more planned, albeit with unusual plants belonging to the same genera such as alpinia gingers, alocasias, neoregelia bromeliads, bottlebrushes, hedychiums, bananas and chamaedorea palms. I also have several other palms. In the garden I grow a more limited palette of plants to keep it from getting too busy, but if there's an oddball that doesn't belong I take it to my balcony or give it to a friend.

keiki,

Actually, this is a 'feel good' forum if there ever was one. Humble gardens, elaborate gardens, professionally designed gardens, plant collections, ponds, vegetable gardens, gardens in pots, everything gets its share of praise - and that is wonderful.

As to the 'pot stirrer', he gives great advice. I wish I had his talent to transform my plant collection into an inspiring garden.

All of us Gardeners (for me that includes all of us) can get passionate about our efforts. I don't think most people here mean to hurt other's feelings.

"...used to have a lot of fun here but now I feel like an outsider... Keiki, I'm sorry I don't remember the name you used to use and I'm sorry you feel like an outsider here. I think we try to be very welcoming to new posters. With all the swaps we've had in the past few years some of us do know each other outside the forum, but it's not a closed club; the doors are open to all Gardeners (OK, and Collectors too. lol).

I didn't mean outsider quite as harsh as it came out. I know Ricky outside of this forum (from years of trades)and didn't mean he was doing all the slinging but this is a testy post. Call it what you like, stirring the pot, playing, slinging mud, whatever, it feels harsh and obviously I am not the only one who thought so.

Solstice in 1999 I joined this forum as ladygardener when gw went threw a change of hands and we had to sign up again I shortened it to lady. I drifted away, changed computers and forgot my password so I am now keiki. My real name is Robin.

I know you Robin, I have traded with you before, and I agree with you. I rarely some on to the Florida forum or the Tropical Plants forum here anymore because of all the personal angst that gets thrown around. I think that you were here BEFORE 1999 as I know I was here before 1999 and I remember you.

Hi Robin! I didn't realize it was you.
Kate

Now that I have had some sleep and my sadness has lessened over my deceased mother's birthday I can post and not take things so personal. Everyone has made a valid point but we all need to remember that this forum is one of the few live and passionate forums in the community. We are neighbors one to another and though we may have spats from time to time we also have block parties where we have fun and share. That having been said this is where I am now headed.

Ricky is entitled to his opinion and yes, he likes to get us going and he likes the feedback - he also likes to eat real food and our goat. Ricky, you are a professional and I know you like to get us thinking and to assist us to have the perfect garden and to utilize the space we have available whether it be large or small. I am still amazed at the number of plants you have on your small handkerchief of a yard. It is truly awesome the way you have taken your collection and turned it into the semblance of a garden. I applaud you for your efforts and desire to educate each of us.

There are so many types of gardens that it is mind boggling. There are the gardens that are simply awesome and take your breath away and then there are the minimalist gardens that leave you wondering why anyone would consider what they see a garden. There are gardens such as kitchenshocks that make me wonder why I make an effort and then it makes me feel bad because I will never have the space or money to create something like that, but then I remember it is not about money or space but about utilizing what we have. I have rental property so I garden predominately in containers. It does not mean that my containers are not gardening. I am enjoying the bounty of tomatoes, green peppers, hot peppers, eggplants, okra, and beans that I have in my containers. I have 15 different fresh herbs to choose from when I cook. I have trees including fruit along with flowers in my containers. I am even growing bromeliads, cannas, and numerous other large plants in containers. At the moment they are a hodgepodge of containers because due to the circumstances of the past year I have not had the time to deal with things and things went - well to pot :)

I am going to take a picture of the mess and you can see why I am embarrassed at the moment. If you want to see a horrible mess I am going to post. My yardman has not been able to mow because of the rain so my grass is high and how I hate that grass, but it is not my grass to smoke of dig up. :) I just cut back the beautiful magenta pink hibiscus because it is in the process of being moved along with the peach one. Once that is accomplished I will be doing my lasagna technique and then my GARDEN will take shape and form.

I love formal and well designed gardens and when I wish to spend time in one I visit friends who have thus or go to botanical gardens or in my case I do see those gardens daily. I am lucky enough to work at Disney where they design gardens and do the most amazing things with flowers and plants. I live behind Sea World and get to see their roadside landscaping. I will go out tomorrow and take pictures of the beauty I live amongst. I even have pictures from the flower show at Epcot and will share them so you can see I live in one big garden. Living amongst all of that makes me appreciate what some people consider a collection and unruly garden. I love Nickys garden and Kats. I love the way they take own their own personality and every time you take a turn or look closer you discover a hidden beauty. I think we should all be proud of our gardens for what they are - they are our gardens and a representation of who we are and what we like. I could have the so-called well-designed garden but I like my garden to wander and take on the personality it wants to. I love everyones gardens and though I do get envious of those who have the money and time to do what they like I happy knowing that my garden is am made up of flowers and plants given to me by friends so my garden is a friendship garden.

To those of you who have left or lurk because of hurt feelings or feeling unwanted - know you are missed and most WANTED by me. I miss you Cindee, Robin, Gus, and others who shall remain nameless and though I get my feelings hurt and feel unworthy to be a part of this I can not leave because you are my friends and part of my life of gardening. Also, I am important and so is my garden and I am worth knowing and I do have lots of gardening knowledge - far more than I have made allowed you guys to know. We all learn from one another and I am learning to yell back if someone offends me now. Please return Cindee and Robin and others. We need you, your gardens, your friendship, your wisdom and most of all You!
Ricky, come and design my garden and I will feed you for free. :) LINDA

Hi
Just had add another couple of thoughts lol Since "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" "If it's useful it's not art ." Using Fairchild as an example. I would love to see someone plant several thousand "The most noble of all plants" and the result be "ugly" Geesh even I could do that !!! If pretty was the entire function of that "grow area" it should be bulldozed immediately. Probably it's greatest value is a "Herbrarium" Since well over 2/3 of the worlds plant species have yet to be identified let alone studied. Let's not forget "Public education" since estimates of plants becomeing extinct must number in the thousands . The collection of Cycads alone would justify it's exixtance. Have yet to hear anyone call it a "Herbrarium" lol
These type of silly arguments is the reason I seldom visit the "landscape" forum "Three plants are "prettier than one " for example lol
One particular post caught my attention. "landscape" was on a lot adjoining the bay on St. John in the Virgin Islands. Lot had a 50 to 65 foot drop down to the beach.
She got lots of replies on "improving" the view with various plants many of which would. not grow in the area.
My thought was .Remove every one of those ugly plants before you block that magnificent view.!! Would love to see the final result as I see no way to distract from it on the other hand it couldn't be improved either. It would be impossible to notice the plants unless you are a collector lol. Now wouldn't it be fun to landscape looking up to the property?? still think that no matter how it was done the best thing would be to remove the house and let it be lol.
gary

Since I am one of the ones (many, I think) who objected somewhat to this whole post, I would like to add a couple of thoughts, myself.

First of all, for those of you who are personal friends of Ricky's (and I know there are a lot of you who have enjoyed his hospitality and knowledge of plants), I just want to say that I don't think ANYONE on this forum doubts his credentials or his expertise. From the pictures I have seen, he has an amazing looking garden, and he obviously knows a lot about plants and landscaping. (I'm speaking in the third person because his last post in this thread makes it sound like he has left the group.)

In my opinion, this whole brouhaha got started because of the way an OPINION was presented as if it were a FACT. There's a lot of difference. If you are going to state flatly, as a FACT rather than a personal opinion, that half of the people who post on this forum do not have gardens, you are going to cause hurt feelings and/or anger. Do I think Ricky did it to stir the pot, as some have suggested? Possibly. He obviously knew it would upset people, or he wouldn't have started out by saying he debated whether or not to even post. And ended by warning us that he would not respond if we DID get upset. So, it's pretty plain that he knew the post would cause problems for people, but he still chose to phrase his personal opinions as though they were fact. And in doing so, he definitely hurt a lot of feelings, as you can see from the responses to the post, which people made regardless of the request for them not to bother if they weren't happy with what he said. In my opinion, and it's ONLY an opinion, that is a very counter-productive way of making a point, or helping people to improve the overall look of their own gardens. (And yes, I think anyone who sticks a plant in dirt is gardening at some level or another, and every yard with plants in it is a GARDEN, whether or not it meets everyone's idea of beauty.) So I do not understand the reason for the whole post, because I do not understand intentionally hurting feelings or making people mad.

Yes, I know we have all unintentionally said things that didn't come out like we meant (or didn't READ the way were saying them in our minds) and as a result, may have accidentally hurt feelings along the way. But most of us wouldn't do it on purpose. So again, I'm mystified by the whole tone of this post. But I am certainly NOT mystified by people's reactions to it.

The second thing I'd like to comment on is in response to remarks about the tenor of this forum. We are only human, and at TIMES, feelings do get hurt and words might be exchanged. But overall, this is one of the friendliest and nicest groups of people I've ever seen online. (And I've belonged to a LOT of groups over the years, believe me.) I've never belonged to one where such a large group of people try so hard to be helpful to each other, and where they share so willingly of advice, ideas, and fun. I'm sorry to hear that anyone has felt the need to leave the forum or to merely lurk due to any unpleasantness. I know how that feels, as I have drawn back once or twice when things got testy. But I don't stay away very long because overall, this forum is one of the best out there. Usually differences get resolved, and people move on. And most of the time, people DO allow for differences of opinion on various issues. I hope those who have felt uncomfortable due to any past discussions will give it another try and join in the fun that is the normal fare here.

Again, both of these points above are only my own personal opinions, and I understand that others might feel differently.

Marcia

Nicely said.

Ginibee and I had an opportunity yesterday to visit Bodigglys garden which surrounds a 1300 sq ft home on a ¾ acre lot. A discussion ensued regarding the subject "Gardens versus Plant Collections" and we wondered if it was Susans admission in an earlier thread that "bromeliads are very addictive. I added up my brom list, I now have approximately 240 different ones!!" which had prompted Fawnridges comment "My point with this thread is to make those of you who do collect one type of plant aware that there are less knowledgeable people who visit this forum and think that you are gardening"

Ginny and I agreed that Susan grows a large variety of bromeliads and is undoubtedly something of an "expert on their culture, but, as you will see from the pictures below, she also has a very beautiful and varied garden. It is our contention that one CAN have a collection and still be considered a gardener!

Set-Game and Match!!!!! Slamdunk!!!She shoots;she scores!!!!
Thank-you kew tip for putting into pictures what most of us already figured out;we all have plant collections in our gardens.
Susan's garden is breathtaking. Thank you,thank-you for posting.

Yeah...what KRISTI said!!

Marcia

Marcia, you are THE source of wisdom and common sense on this forum. An indeed friendly and welcoming forum :]

Beautiful pictures of a great garden, Kew_tip

Olya

Thank you for saying such a nice thing, Olya, but I know there are MANY sources of wisdom on this forum. That's one of the things that makes it so special, in my mind. There is not a single day that I don't learn something new here, both about gardening, and about sharing and being kind to other people. (Sometimes I learn what NOT to do! *smile*)

I would hate to think how much different my life would be if I had not found this place. I would truly miss the friendships made both online and off, and all the experience and knowledge that is massed under this "roof."

Marcia

Oh, absolutely, Marcia - lots of people to learn from! I think you bring a lot of peace when it is needed, and common sense...plenty a time, a small disagreement would occur, and I always enjoyed your level-headed and kind messages to resolve the issue!

It is a very friendly forum indeed....

Very interesting commentary (and initial rather self-serving post).

Perhaps the question should be: How can one collect a plant and not (go through the process of) be gardening?

And, if you plant collect, you better know the name of the plant and have a label to impart that exact knowledge.

Too much gray area, c'mon.

There are several definitions of aesthetics of a garden, as well as a collection. I have seen parts of Fairchild and aesthetically they are atrocious (not managed well, including plant health), it's still some semblence of a garden, as well as a (labelled) collection.

Design (the forced hand/eye of mankind) has to be included when you mention gardening, too. But it seems this wasn't communicated well in the initial post.

Seasoned horticulturists and gardeners will often say something like "You can tell this is a gardener's garden since there is one of everything tucked in wherever there is soil to house it, since the gardener loves any plant." Alternatively, landscape architects create a designer's garden since the use of space is (usually) impeccable with great use of sight views, line, texture and space, but the plant material is usually mundane but tough.

Granted, I MUST add that I have seen some "designers" gardens and they just as reasily make poor decisions on palm placement, shrub use or cluster #*#&$ plants together and using chotchky stuff that I'd say 'crap'. These same "designers" still use the same plants in ALL of their designs, although there is usually a bit more diversity than landscape architects. Simply camping out at Boynton Botanicals or Excelsa doesn't mean you know what you're doing.

Gardening and those who love plants are on a grand, sliding scale. What do you do to help the other plant lover deepen his/her love or appreciation of plants and the garden?

Gardeners are usually modest.

If not modest, at the very least have enough good manners to be polite and not hurt others who have a different idea of what makes a beautiful garden than you do.

We had a neighbor whose idea of garden art was every single gnome, flamingo, trellis (with no plants on it), and bridge to nowhere she cold cram in her front yard. Honestly, it looked (to me) like a flea market out there. But you know what? She was happy as could be with her garden, and isn't that the whole point? Who says MY idea of beauty is the same as hers, or even any more valid than hers? She spent all her spare time out there, tweaking this and that, and didn't care that she had more chotchkies than plants. And I say, more power to her. She was doing what she loved to do and happy with the results. We should all be so lucky.

Marcia