You can't. (Unless of course you're so seriously ill that a public health epidemiologist is in your kitchen taking samples of everything.)

There is no such thing as the "24-hour flu." Flu lasts 7-10 days. The 24-hour sort is invariably food poisoning.

One difficulty is you may be thinking about what you consumed at the most recent meal, but poisoning agents have an incubation period. For instance, salmonella takes 24 hours while camphylobacter takes 72 hours. Unless you know precisely what you have, it's almost impossible to tell what caused it because you have multiple food sources and an unspecified time frame.

Alaska, which is a kind of ground central for food poisoning, has a great food poisoning myths page. If interested, check the link. It's all pretty basic but it's still worth perusal.

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: Alaska Food Myths

I agree with Carol - you can't know. There are just too many variables. Which is why informed home canners put so little stock in claims like the "My grandmother has used this method for 50 years and no one has gotten sick or died from it!"

Claims like that are purely anecdotal. Not to mention that statistics on the issue of food borne illness weren't even kept back in Grandma's day - well Grandma's day for me at my age, maybe great-Grandma's day for others. ;)

Even CDC accepts the fact that many cases of food borne illness are never diagnosed much less reported.

Dave

I always wondered why people could be so certain that their canning methods were as good or even better than the approved & tested methods. And how they could make claims that no one ever got sick. It just makes sense to me that there would be so many variables, that no one could claim for certain that their improper methods did no harm. More than likely people were negatively affected but no one made a connection to the improperly canned food.

I remember my mother telling me how when she was first married she moved in with my Dad's family on the farm. She was a bit shocked at what she considered their lack of proper food handling. Mom is over 80 now, so that would have been 55- 60 years ago.

She said they often had "a touch of the flu" or a "24 hour bug" but she figured most of it was food poisoning.

A lot of people also point out that back in Grandma's day, canned goods were thoroughly boiled before being consumed. That practice alone would take care of a lot of potential problems.

Other than botulism spores, are there any other dangerous bacteria or toxins that are not destroyed by boiling for 10 minutes?

TomNJ

Not that I know of, assuming the core temperature is sufficient and it's been held at that temperature long enough. I remember researching this a few months ago, and found one interesting factoid and that is that some pathogens can still grow under refrigeration and I'm thinking off the top of my head it's listeria. IOW, if a food is contaminated with it at all, even at minute levels, it can still reproduce despite cold temperatures and flourish.

Oh, statistics were indeed kept in G'ma's time. I do historical research and have gone through old death records from the 1800s (not necessarily death certificates, however until after 1908). However, euphemisms were used. Summer complaint is food poisoning and called that because of the increased spoilage of some foods with no refrigeration. There were others.

Often it was ambiguously described or misdiagnosed, as well. I had a great grand uncle who died of " creeping paralysis". It killed him rather quickly, so I suspect he had a disease like tetanus or perhaps botulism. As the paralysis creeps up or down to the respiratory muscles, the victim dies.

And actually botulism spores usually pass through an adult's system with no sequelae.........because it needs a specific environment in which to break dormancy, reproduce and produce toxin. It gets that environment in under processed canned goods, and that's why the boiling suspect food can make it safe. The organism is killed, and the toxin is broken down, but not the spores. Spores can be anywhere and we probably eat them in fresh foods. I still feel any suspect food should be discarded, and do not recommend boiling it to make is safe. However, it is an extra safety step one can take when presumed safe low acid food is prepared. I always cook my canned goods if they are not high acid.

Returning to Calliope's comments, boiling kills botulism toxins but not the spores. Which means, hypothetically, that what is safe for immediate consumption might not remain so as any viable spores could produce new toxins if the conditions were right.

Heating is a temporary food safety measure, assuming the necessary temperatures are reached, but it's not a permanent solution.

This is true of many prepared foods. Cooked to the appropriate temperature, chicken is safe for consumption. But leave it out on the counter a while and it becomes a wonderful host for contamination.

Botulism is in soil and soil is everywhere, including marine mud.

There are 7 strains of botulism, 4 of which are toxic to humans. Normally when we speak of botulism we're referring to the most common strains, but E, for instance, can produce toxins under refrigeration, so our assumption that botulism requires warmth for toxins to develop is not necessarily true. In the world of botulism spores, there are often exceptions.

However, the majority of food poisoning cases don't result from botulism but from salmonella, camphylobacter, etc. And the majority don't come from canning but from raw foods or from human-introduced contamination of prepared foods like pasta salad.

The risk with canning is that the botulism toxins that might be produced, while rare, are incredibly dangerous, even in miniscule amounts. The "24-hour flu" is an inconvenience. Botulism is a whole other category of risk.

But clearly, careful sanitation practices are crucial with all food preparation, not just canning of low-acid products.

The typical kitchen sink is "dirtier" than the toilet. It's not pleasant to think of, but it's good to keep in mind.

Carol

We are surrounded by bacteria and virus, our skin, digestive track, and who knows what all else is covered/filled with bacteria and viruses, most harmless, although there are some real doozies in the mix as well. You could do a swab/culture on just about anything and find something nasty. Yet somehow, we survive.

By far and away, 'serious' (Carol brings up a very important point, probably the dirtiest place in the house is the kitchen sink, and unless you want to pour bleach down the drain, the plumbing 'trap' is a regular breeding ground. The kitchen counters, cutting boards, sponges, rags, and all that can get absolutely chock full of nasty stuff, rapidly as well. Whats a person to do?!?

Man-kind has dealt, rather successfully, with this over the millennia by certain rules - cook your food, peel your veggies/fruit if you're going to eat them raw. Added now with washing carefully salads and other raw veggies.

Re 24 hour flu, thats a misnomer for viral gastrointestinal viruses spread by hand/mouth/door knob sort of stuff. We've one making the rounds here, it hit DD a few weeks ago, and dozens of other people we know over the last month. 24-36 hours of misery, and then it just goes away.

Is it correct that so long as you process hot packed canned foods for at least 20 minutes in a boiling water bath, that you have killed all bugs except botulism spores? Or are there other bacteria/viruses that can survive this treatment?

TomNJ

Yes. Sort of.

It will kill bacteria IF 1) the food is consistently high-acid (meaning if say, a pepper mixture, all the pieces are sufficiently acidified with no low-acid "islands" and 2) the heat penetration is sufficient to assure all portions of the food reach the desired temperature. (A dense mixture in a quart jar might require a longer time.) and 3) the acidity of the mixture doesn't go down (i.e. pH goes up) over the storage interval.

I hate even to venture an answer because regardless of the circumstances, there's invariably an exception to the rule. I wouldn't want anyone to operate under a misapprehension that they will always be safe regardless of the product if they just follow this "rule."

Carol

Is it correct that so long as you process hot packed canned foods for at least 20 minutes in a boiling water bath, that you have killed all bugs except botulism spores? Or are there other bacteria/viruses that can survive this treatment?

The simple answer to your question is NO. I'm sorry but that statement - "Is it correct that so long as you process hot packed canned foods for at least 20 minutes in a boiling water bath, that you have killed all bugs except botulism spores?" - would be a gross over-simplification of the processes involved.

As with all the good points Carol made, there are simply too many variables to say your statement is correct.

An obvious example of a case where it would NOT be true is if you tried to can corn or green beans or meat by "processing them for 20 mins. in a BWB."

Only highly acid foods can be processed in a BWB and even some of them require much longer than 20 mins. - tomatoes and some fruits for example. And even then one has to be aware of the density issues and the pH stability issues to make the recommended processing times safe. There is no way any low acid foods can be safely processed in a BWB.

Dave

I agree that acidity and pH are factors in killing/inhibiting botulism spores, and therefore important for safety. My question is, are there any other organisms that can survive boiling water temperatures for more than a few minutes. If not, then the only "bug" to worry about after a say 20 minute BWB treatment is botulism. Therefore the OP's concern about other's getting sick from food poisoning would not apply to most home canned foods, at least not those that have had a good BWB treatment, as most do.

TomNJ

Staph aureus toxin is heat stable, so toxins won't be destroyed by cooking. There are others, spore producers, where the spores can grow after the organisms are destroyed by heat if cooked foods are then improperly held, they'll be contaminated by the surviving spores. I'm enclosing a very helpful link. I think it will answer your questions.

The prions responsible for 'mad cow' are also not killed by heat.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bacterial Food poisoning.

My orginal question had more to do with people's claims that no one had ever gotten sick or suffered ill effects from canned goods processed using discredited methods. I just don't see how they could be so certain that there had never been problems. I was mainly asking about the infamous quotes you hear so often like, "Grandma Josey has canned beef stew using the BWB method for 50 years, and no one has ever gotten sick." How can Grandma's family be so certain that in 50 years someone didn't suffer from her improperly processed beef stew? Maybe people did get sick from Grandma's canned goods but for some reason never made the connection. I don't believe these anecdotal claims justify continuing to use outdated, disproven methods.

I agree that acidity and pH are factors in killing/inhibiting botulism spores,

In home canning, acidity (pH) and density are factors in killing and inhibiting many different bacteria, not just boulinum.

Therefore the OP's concern about other's getting sick from food poisoning would not apply to most home canned foods, at least not those that have had a good BWB treatment, as most do.

First I would have to disagree that most home canned foods are done in a BWB. As already mentioned, a BWB is limited to ONLY high acid foods. The majority of home canned foods require pressure canning.

Second, the protection against bacteria that one gets with high acid foods comes from the acidity, not the heat of the BWB. Its primary purpose is to create a vacuum in the jar and a seal on the jar.

So the OPs original concern is quite valid. Improperly processed foods, be that in the form of the processing used, the length of time processed, the density, or the pH of the food, pose the threat of several different bacteria, not to mention yeasts and molds, as Calliope's link points out.

Dave

Let's also consider such microorganisms as those which cause flat-sour in tomatoes. Flat sour is not a health issue, per se. It's just that the product is inedible, which obviously defeats the whole point of canning.

Flat sour does survive despite boiling water bath. So there are microorganisms which may or may not present health problems but which are fully capable of surving heat processing. (In fact, flat sour is thermophilic or heat loving.)

Carol

Thanks for that link Calliope! Very informative, and I have bookmarked it.

The linked article mentions that several different spores and toxins are "heat stable" and may survive cooking, but in some cases does not give the temperature and time needed to kill them. I know that C. Botulinum spores can survive up to 20 hours at 212F (boiling water), 12 minutes at 240F (10 psi pressure canning) and 2.5 minutes at 250F (15 psi pressure canning), but I was always under the impression that all other dangerous bugs and spores were killed with a few minutes of boiling.

The basis for that belief was that all meats are considered safe if heated to an internal temperature 180F, many canned foods are considered safe with a BWB treat (although perhaps the pH is the major factor there), and that 10-20 minutes of boiling is considered adequate to make liquid foods safe. This implies to me that 212F for say 20 minutes destroys everything but C. Botulinum spores. Perhaps I am wrong, which is what I am trying to confirm.

Thanks,

TomNJ