Newby question: What is 5:1:1 I am assuming a line of nutrients?

Hi Dhelsdon, I am also new here. 5:1:1 is container soil created by our well known expert Tapla Al.

Josh is one of the best members who uses and prepared this 5:1:1, if you have any question about this 5:1:1 please do not hesitate to ask him or send an email to him, I hope he can help you.

New container gardener,

Caelian

Here is a link that might be useful: Tapla Al's 5:1:1 Container soil

IMO Al is quite full of himself. Every problem you have can be solved by his 5-1-1 "soil" mix. Peat/compost based soils are the devil! HAH!

5-1-1 is probably a good alternative, in that it more reflects a hydroponic-style of gardening rather than an in-ground style that may not be optimal for containers. But it is not God's Gift to humanity as it is sometimes portrayed. Many healthy and hot pods have grown in soil. That said, I am moving to a version of it this year.

So there.

I still like to use potting mix in smaller container like 1 gal and lower. In the 2 gal and larger I used a bark based mix with higher results than large container with just potting soil.

I want to say bark is just great! I have even made mixes with 3 parts bark right out the bag and 1 part potting soil and lime. The roots that where growing in that mix where really thick and light colored. The roots that where in potting soil where thin and darker in color.

I want to say the 5-1-1 is a great mix.

This post was edited by TheMasterGardener1 on Fri, Feb 1, 13 at 14:37

How did I get in here is a long hopeless adventure to find a good forum. After I have grown Habanero and bought Ghost chili seeds I tried to get more information of growing hot chili, I am not very good at looking information on the net. I have found all these forums, chilis Galore, Chiliforumi.fi , chilligrowers's forum, grow hot pepper's forum and growfruitandveg.co.uk, I was registered as a member but I was frustrated because I could not get much information and there were almost no activities in the forums.

I used many different nick names for these forums and finally I got fed up even I did not like to choose my nicks again but kept looking for a good forum. I was not serious when I found garden web just I did register. After registration I started to know it is the right place to start. I cannot recollect what was my first post who were the members responded me. Gradually I acknowledge our serious chili enthusiasts and remarkable professionals. It made me nervous I did not know how to praise and how to thanks someone for their helps, what a silly person I am.

I cannot remember very well why I chose 5:1:1 in the first place but I remember Al's articles of container gardening that made me to choose 5:1:1 it influenced me a lot. I was inspired by our forum members. Secondly I was impressed the plants they have grown in 5:1:1. In fact I did not give much attention on the container soil I used before and I did not have problems too when I have grown Habanero. Only I thought a good fertilizer can make my plants healthy and fruitful. When my plants died I blamed to the plants never thought about the soil and water habit. I was so wrong.

It was not easy to find the ingredients of 5:1:1 here, it was a difficult part of preparation for me.

It will be easier to prepare/use 5:1:1 who have been doing gardening many years, because they know about fertilizers, watering habit and the tools they have and used. However any new gardener can do it without problems.

The screening was very tricky for me, because I started with extremely wet pine bark. The first batch was OK but it was not a very good one I considered. Now the pine barks are almost dry I screened the pine barks with two different sieves and the result is awesome visually. I do not use it right now, I will use it soon. After I screened the pine bark I got a lot of small pine barks and other materials the size are almost same with CoCo Coir I used before. I found a lot of sapwood the main culprit of 5:1:1 I think.

The helps (mainly from Josh) I got from the forum members are remarkable, only I couldn't follow the instructions and advice correctly.

Now I can water my plants many times now I do water two times a day for only the small seedling pots. I found that if I do not screen and separate the sapwood properly, the 5:1:1 soil can be damp. 5:1:1 is well drain container soil but I should not do over water it should be an abuse of 5:1:1.

Most convenient part is freedom of watering without worry of damping soil related diseases.

I hope the original version of 5:1:1 will be remained as well as new versions will be coming up. Josh use Turface, Teyo use expanded clay and I have tested cat litter all these soils are 5:1:1 new versions to make it more effective and convenient to the users I think.

Al's 5:1:1 is well balanced container soil such as soil aeration, moisture and nutrients (I preferred to use slow-releasing fertilizer) they are the most important factors to be a good container soil I think.

Tapla Al's name will be remained in our mind as long as we use 5:1:1.

New container gardener,
Caelian

This post was edited by chilliwin on Sat, Feb 2, 13 at 9:45

I've been experimenting with all sorts of soils for about two years before finally stumbling into Al's articles. I was thoroughly unsatisfied how store bought soils behaved, regardless of brand or price. When i started growing adeniums it was painfully obvious how badly water retentive and weakly aerated those soils were, even cactus mixes. So i tried all sorts of stuff, settling in the end on a combination most commonly for bonsai trees. It was the articles and introduction of bark that finally made me satisfied on how the soil behaved.
As for exactly 5-1-1, it saved a few very expensive brugmansia cuttings, that i transplanted into it as a last ditch effort, they were dieing in a supposedly high quality potting mix. If it had worked only for that it'd be enough for me, it was amazing how they rebounded and started growing literally within two days of transplanting. Now all my plants will go into it, i am now looking forward to buying ingredients for this season, it will be so much easier. Baby peppers are looking great, baby hibiscus too. Adeniums small and big have overwintered in gritty without problems, and i've watered them by submerging the pots AND fertilized them all winter (just try to tell any traditional adenium grower to water by dunking in winter and hear them scream). Anyhow, i couldn't be happier with this soil for now.

The one place I have not found 5-1-1 style media to work well is in starting sprouts. This year I moved germinated seeds into a bark medium and those that did come up were having a very tough time of it. One I moved to MGMC (peat-heavy) and it perked right up. Later sprouts planted in (mostly) MGMC are doing very well.

For the theorists, one issue Al pushes is the avoidance of a significant perched water table (PWT), which can limit or kill roots. One obvious alternative is watering discipline, which is not always possible - i.e. it rains. Another is to use extra-deep pots since the depth of the PWT is measured from the bottom of the pot. I've never seen this addressed, and the direct question in Containers was never answered.

I've been growing plants in containers for about 40 years and have always loved observing how different methods and materials affect plant growth. I have probably read more than 100 plant/garden books and thousands of online articles and found that most make claims that are not backed up by evidence. I've tried dozens of different store bought potting mixes and do-it-yourself recipes. Through trial and error, and a lot of failures, I became quite successful at growing most of the plants I've tried to grow, both indoors and out.

Then, about 8 years ago, I fell in love with clivias, South African flowering plants that are very susceptible to root rot when grown in the wrong medium. I lost some very expensive plants using potting mixes that had worked for other plants. I was pretty desperate to find a mix that wouldn't get soggy or compacted when I found Al's recipes on gardenweb. His reasoning fit what I had experienced over the years. I was especially won over by learning how pine bark and larger particles work in mixes. I tried the gritty mix on my clivias, and tried the 5-1-1 mix on more than 100 vegetables and flowers I grow in containers each summer starting in the spring of 2011. Almost every plant I've tried these mixes on has shown significant improvement. My clivias are flourishing and my vegetables are healthier and produce more. I'm sold. There is no magic success formula for growing plants in pots. But using a fast draining mix with a complete fertilizer with a 3-1-2 NPK ratio comes close.

Yes, before finding the 5-1-1 I used a mix of 80% perlite and 20% potting mix. It is a good mix because 80% of the mix is a course material. I did not know the principles then , but from trial and error I noticed not untill I used 70-80% perlite the mix would then change in drainage. Being perlite is expensive, it makes more sense to use pine fines as the base of a mix then add fine particles from there.

What has everyone's experience been like growing vegetables in containers with the 5:1:1?

Hi Studiousjr,

I do not have much experiences of this 5:1:1.

The 5:1:1 is maintaining the principle of CONTAINER SOIL. The health of the container plants are depended on many factors such as GROWING MEDIA, LIGHT, FERTILIZER AND WATER. Only 5:1:1 cannot make the plants healthy, it needs regular proper fertilization, lights and water.

The benefit of 5:1:1 are avoiding DAMPING OFF soil that kill the plants and supply OXYGEN to the roots that keep the plants healthy.

I do not prefer 5:1:1 for seedling.

The principle of Growing Media:

" GROWING MEDIA. The perfect germination and
seedling growing medium has good drainage and aeration but also some moisture retention. The medium should promote rapid root expansion, which produces vigorous seedling foliage growth. The particles of the medium should be fairly large so that the medium does not pack together and allows the roots easy penetration.
Dense or clay soils are the worst possible seedling growing media because the roots are drowned in water and receive no oxygen.

Although some growers believe that peppers should be germinated in the soil in which they will eventually live, we do not recommend using garden soil. It is usually too dense for the tender plants and may contain disease-bearing organisms. Gardeners who insist on using garden soil should sterilize it by baking it for at least an hour in the oven at 350F. Then it should be mixed half and half with soil expanders such as as perlite or vermiculite.

A number of commercial media are on the market, notably Jiffy Mix and Pro-Mix, which are usually combinations of milled peat moss or sphagnum moss, fine vermiculite, and fertilizer. These pasteurized mixtures work well in most situations but sometimes are unavailable to the home gardener. In that case, the grower can prepare a custom seedling medium by mixing together readily available materials that meet the criteria of drainage, moisture retention, and aeration. For our medium, we use commercial, sterile potting soil, perlite, and vermiculite mixed in equal proportions. Coarse sand can be substituted for the perlite, but never use builders' sand (too fine) or ocean beach sand (too salty). Peat moss is difficult to wet, is too acid, and compacts badly, so use it sparingly. Potting soil and vermiculite hold moisture and nutrients, and the perlite prevents compaction, aids in drainage and aeration, and promotes root growth." Source: The Complete Chile Pepper Book.

New container gardener,

Caelian

I don't grow many vegetables in containers...other than peppers, of course ;-)

But I do grow a Sun Gold tomato in a 15-gallon container on my back deck every summer. The tomato takes over the lattice on the deck, scrambles up onto the roof, and vines its way into the liquidambar tree nearby. Other than some Osmocote, I really don't fertilize very much - just a few infrequent doses of Foliage Pro throughout the season.

Finally laid my hands on some Perlite. 2 ft3 0.3 ft3 bag at Home Depot for $4.24. A little pricey, but he let me have an open $5 bag of pulverized lime for 50¢. So it worked out in the end.

Now I can do the "real" 5:1:1 mix. The first four 4" pots are filled with my fake 511 (no Perlite or lime) so I can compare performance.

Just what is this perlite "anti-fertilizer" supposed to do anyway? It's as inert as glass and looks for all the world like ground styrofoam. Is the white color important to the little rooties?

This post was edited by DMForcier on Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 16:23

DMF: I think you could be mistaken about the price on that perlite. Our Home Depot sells a 0.3 cubic foot bag of perlite for $4.24. They sell a 2 cubic feet bag of the coarse grade (which you want) for $16.97.

Perlite is not an "anti-fertilizer." It is a natural substance made of volcanic glass that has been exploded like popcorn by high heat. After exploding, it is full of tiny bubbles, which is what makes it so light (and also what makes it white). It helps prevent your potting mix from getting compacted and soggy.

Yep, you're right. It was the little bag. I don't think they even have the big bag, which is what I went in looking for.

I call it the "anti-fertilizer" because it is (apparently) the only soil additive that doesn't actually do anything, unlike fertilizer.

> "It helps prevent your potting mix from getting compacted and soggy."

You mean, like the pine bark?

DM,
Perlite displaces water in the mix, so the overall water-holding capacity is decreased. When a mix is approximately three-quarters Perlite, the mix will also take on the drainage properties of the Perlite. Perlite holds moisture on its outer surfaces only, so it also dries fairly rapidly.

Josh

Ah. Whereas pine bark absorbs water. Right?

That's right. The bark slowly absorbs and slowly releases moisture. Bark's average moisture retention is somewhere between Turface and Peat. But beware, if a mix is all-bark, it will retain just as much moisture as all-peat...thus, we amend.

"if a mix is all-bark, it will retain just as much moisture as all-peat"

Not if it is large bark like 3/4-2 inch bark. I saw something about a greenhouse that used one media choice that is 100% Composted bark in that large range.

i guess I am speeking the obvious because orchids are grown in 100% bark and they need high porosity.

I guess if the pine bark is in that size range, its fine...

This post was edited by TheMasterGardener1 on Fri, Feb 22, 13 at 14:14

Retained moisture with bark, but deeper PWT (the result of the greater porosity)?

MG, you're talking apples and orchids....

We're not discussing Giant Bark. Very clearly, very explicitly, this Thread is about 5-1-1 and the bark used therein. A container full of 5-1-1 apropriate bark will hold as much moisture as a container of peat. The fine composted bark lodges between the larger particles of bark and changes the overall drainage to the drainage properties of the finer particles.

This is why, if the bark selected is very composted, we say eliminate the peat fraction entirely. Bark dust acts like peat dust, for all intents and purposes.

Josh

Well, I am new to the forum and not that experienced with balcony gardening (vs outdoor yard gardening) but feeling relatively confident these skills were transferable, I potted up a good number of plants.

After reading some of Al's posts, I began to dislike all the potting medium I had used for the initial pottings. The later pottings, I had amended significantly but between Al's logic in recommending this mixture and my local nursery offering me blueberry soil that was chock full of bark pieces, I became downright obsessive over changing out the soil in the plants I potted first, haha. The development of fungi gnats in one didn't help at all; I became CONVINCED this soil is murder, haha.

Poor things are about to undergo another transplant and they will either have to make it or kick it. I can't say I use the exact formula, but mixing in enough perlite and bark to aerate the soil for the benefit of the plants makes perfect sense. I am wondering why, for all of these years, I've always REMOVED bark from the soil and was so annoyed when a few would drop in. I never thought of it as good.

Added benefit: it lets me water more often because it dries out quicker. This really suits my tendency to torment a plant to death with love!

This post was edited by Sugi_C on Fri, Feb 22, 13 at 17:26

Greenman-

This is why I clearly stated-

"I guess I am speeking the obvious because orchids are grown in 100% bark and they need high porosity.

I guess if the pine bark is in that size range, its fine..."

That anecdote isn't germane to the conversation.

And, regardless, I grow my Orchids in a 5-1-1 sized bark.

Josh

I was just reading this thread... wow. Josh you have more patience than I do. Far as 'DMForcier's comments.. I will say Al is not 'full of himself'. You need to learn to understand all people are different. I've found Al to be more than generous and like Josh, very patient. 'Yes' he has typed a lot here (Josh has too) but far as the topic of the 511 mix.. it works just fine. DMForcier - PWT is a behavior or water clinging to itself.. the soil mix can only help that problem. Nothing will totally negate it. That behavior of water is the very reason that trees are able to 'lift' water to the upper canopy from the root zone. Life on this planet would be very different if water didn't cling to itself so strongly. If you have a better soil mix than 511 I'm sure there are a lot of people who would be more than happy to hear you out. Josh is telling it like it is about perlite as well. Grace - not all bark is the same. Some mixes have used barks totally unsuitable for container culture. A lot of sellers grow in one mix and sell or market their plants in another mix (usually some very low cost ingredients). I will also mention that not all pine bark is the same being sold. Some is very decayed while others are in a lot better condition. I have been using 511 the past 2yrs ... I use my own compost and a bit of peat added to that. It's worked far better than any pre made mix. I have a number of citrus species growing in it in north GA. I have also grown tomatoes and a few other tropicals in it as well. This is a Persian Lime growing in 511 - The photo is a couple yrs old and the tree is even bigger now.

I'm confused...how does a container full of 5-1-1 bark hold the same moisture as peat moss? Then what makes 5-1-1 better that a peat based moss? The room for more oxygen for plants?

Z Man, the mix is largely based on pine bark bits. They dry faster than any of the peat or moss based mixes. The drying and rewetting process works like we do inhaling and exhaling. This drying and rewetting process forces out used air while we water and 'inhales' fresh air as the medium dries. Since citrus largely breathe from the root zone this added air flow prevents root pathogens and really helps the trees stay much healthier and they in turn will grow better as well. :)

So you're saying that while initially a peat moss based mix and the bark mix hold the same moisture, the drying out process is much faster in the bark mix.

Partly but the moss type mixes all hold far more moisture than the roots will ever require. That excessive moisture creates problems in citrus species because in a container the trees don't want 'wet feet'. Citrus are susceptible to root pathogens and they need a good air flow to the roots to really thrive. They much prefer a mix that dries quickly and drains excessive moisture away whereas 'potting mixes' are designed to stay damp longer so the average person won't have to water as often. You'll see them marketed as 'moisture control' and that is the total opposite of what plants and trees would prefer to grow in. (unless they are things like carnivorous plants that require the constant presence of moisture) Those mixes are marketed for people and not really what's best for the plants or trees. Zman, if you are on FB join my group called 'Citrus trees kept in Containers'. We have thousands of photographs and a good collection of links and information that is helpful and will get you going in the right direction. :)

Thank you. I do understand the 5-1-1 mix and read Al's post. What confused me was greenman28's comment that a container full of bark holds the same moisture that a peat mix does.

I'm excited as this year is the first year im trying the 5-1-1 mix. I've already potted a begonia luxurians and euphorbia milii into it. I think up next is a abutilon. I thought maybe I'd put a couple brugmansia in the 5-1-1 instead I'm using a good mix in fabric pots.

Z

I used pine animal bedding pellets for the pine bark component. I’m afraid this was a mistake, since the mix is not fast draining. Do I need to start over and repot everything? Where can I get pine bark mulch in Phoenix AZ? I can’t find it anywhere.

Mcreader, let me put it this way. I live in north GA. Pine trees are grown commercially all over this state and I struggle to find pine bark the past few years! Mulches are now dyed or colored. Some of the pine bark I've used was toxic because the trees were likely injected and killed standing.. here I was making soil mixes that contained powerful herbicides. (that was truly a very bad mix!) The best source I found is to get Lowes or Home Depot to order the product with a purple label sold as 'pine bark mulch'. Some bags have a lot of good size bark bits and others have a lot of wood and cambium or are too decayed. It's really become a hassle to find a good bark bit. Our local Home Depot said I could prepay and they could order some bags of the product I like to use so you might want to ask and see if that's available. I've used aggregate suppliers, landscape suppliers and places like that who had huge stacks of bark but you have to be careful and sort the sizes. Its a far better price but if you're willing to go through the trouble its a fraction of the cost of pre bagged products. I made this video a few summers ago explaining and showing the product I've had the most luck with. Maybe it will be helpful 511 explained

I know it's pricey, but 'Reptibark' usually used for reptiles is perfect for the 5-1-1 mix. It is fir bark and does not need screening. www.chewy.com has good prices for it and if you order at least $49 of product, shipping is free.

Z

Thanks, guys. I appreciate the help! I will try the Repti-bark. I can’t believe that I thought the animal bedding would be the same thing! And I was so proud of myself for makiing my own potting soil, hahaha. Live and learn!

I've been reading about the 5-1-1 mix for like 10 years and this is the first year I'm actually making the mix! Let us know the next batch goes for you. I'm actually only using 5-1-1 in my regular pots. In the fabric pots I'm using just a quality potting mix as the fabric pots set on the ground retain no perched water.

Z