Sable, I am going to take a minute to explain my thoughts then I will not comment further on this. I did offer my support to DLM but a comment I made was taken in a way other than I meant.

I fully agree that mental illness is an illness same as a physical one and many times I know medicine is the only answer. HOWEVER, my husband and I both have very strong feelings about the problem of over medication or maybe I should say unnecessary medication. Someone mentioned in the panic attack thread identifying what was causing their feelings and working to overcome that - coping. In that case many times a person will not need medication or is able to discontinue medication.

I have had panic/anxiety attacks only during one period of my life and that was when my FIL was suffering from cancer and was terminal. The first time I woke up with numb arms, fast heartbeat, etc. and thought I might be having a stroke. I was finally able to get up (I felt paralyzed) and was sick to my stomach. I was able to calm myself down after a period. I probably had only 3-4 attacks. Once the stressful situation ended, I didn't have them again. Even with my own mother's illness/death. Perhaps I was able to deal with things better that time because I had been through it before and due to a very strong support between my siblings, my husband and other family and friends.

I see so many people who are on many medications. People my husband works with are amazed he takes no medication (he's 51). We do try to maintain a healthy lifestyle, but of course we stray! LOL Over the last year, his bp has gone up and down a bit. Thankfully we have a wonderful doctor who watches for these changes and works with us BEFORE there is risk to at least try and avoid medication. Exercise, less salt, etc. are things we are doing right now. Not to say that he will always be able to control his BP without medication, but his hope is to go as long as possible without meds. Both his parents had BP issues, so there is the heridity issue. But the longer we can hold out without meds, we feel the better off we are. No medication comes without side effects. It is sometimes a trade-off and I do realize that many times medication is unavoidable - a necessity and even a life saver. THAT is my point. I was not in any way saying that a person needing medication should not get it or saying that mental illness is any different from physical illness. But if a young man can overcome these problems without medication, or with as little medication as possible, well then that's a big plus in my eyes. If there are lifestyle changes you can make, why not try that first (under your doctor's care of course)?? Hopefully I have explained my thoughts to where you can understand. I think I got a little wordy here!

DLM - I apologize if the other thread got off topic from your son. I should have let the remark pass. Sable is correct, that thread was about you and your son, not for arguing this and that.

tina

Tina - I suspect that you and I are debating opposite sides of the same coin. While we agree about the issue at large, we will probably always return to our view of things.

Just today I was reading, about some other facet of emotional/mental upset, that "Genetics loads the gun. Experience pulls the trigger." In other words, given the right DNA and the "right" trauma, what is there will bubble to the surface.

No one would argue with you about a healthy lifestyle. What you and your DH are doing is very commendable. We should all concentrate on working with our docs to keep ourselves healthy.

And BTW, I was wordier than you, so don't worry about that! If there's a subject deserving of discussion and bringing into the light, it's mental upset and illness.

Sable, I love your post! Even depression and anxiety attacks are now labeled as a Mental Illness.

Yesterday I saw a commercial with Glen Close. Her sister is bipolar, and it showed all these people wearing tee shirts and on the back their mental illness had words on their shirts labeling what they have.

Everyone is different. Just because one person can get through a panic attack doesn't mean we all can.

I thank God that there IS medication out there for all the mental disorders. Not too long ago everyone was committed to the Insane Asylum. Can you imagine?

I have no regrets about asking for information here. I never expect 100% consensus on any topic but appreciate every different experience and perspective. At the end of the day on any post it's up to the original OP whether to follow any of the suggestions given or none - and that applies to paint color or anxiety treatment. In my case, it's all food for thought and beneficial to hear different opinions. I thank everyone that shared experiences and made suggestion. And there is no question in my mind that they have all come from a place of compassion. No apologies needed.

Deb

Oakley - Glad that you enjoyed and "got" my post. I am pretty sure that at least a few other posters and lurkers also understood what I was writing about.

And meanwhile, enjoy your reading, and here's hoping that your heart races mainly from the excitement of the book!

'"Mental health issues begin in the brain, and the brain is...subject to blips and flips and missent signals and strange chemical misfirings."

But our minds are in charge of our brains. A thought precedes a feeling. Neuroscience tells us that the higher mind, responsible for reason, language, & other rational processes, is located in a different part of our brain from our primal mind, the seat of instincts, irrational impulses, fear, anxiety, and depression.

Brain science has demonstrated that just as an electrode can stimulate a part of the brain and elicit a thought, so also can a particular tough elicit neural activitiy in a particular part of the brain.

The physiological capacity of depression lies in only one part of the mind, the primal mind. This lower brain primal mind was the first to evolve and is responsible for our "fight or flight" response. If we are depressed or anxious, we our operating from our lower-brain primal response.

But we have a choice. I know the drug companies don't want us to think we do. I know many physicians getting kick backs from those companies also want us to feel helpless to control our minds, but that fact is, we can choose to function from our upper brain/higher mind.

Depression/anxiety is actually being stuck, neural-activity wise, in the primal mind of the lower brain.

Directed Thinking is the process by which, as an act of will, we choose particular and specific thoughts to switch the focus of our attention-and mind functioning-from our lower primal mind to the upper-brain higher mind.

This enables us to escape the painful and traumatic feelings of depression & anxiety which are caused by the temporary chemical imbalance of the fight or flight response.

We always have a choice of which part of our two-part mind to use, but we have to learn how to exercise that choice.

I find it helpful to remember that it is easy to remain depressed/anxious and stay focused on those feelings and it is HARD to direct my thinking and live from the other part of my brain, the higher mind, as it is not where my brain goes of it's own volition.

I did not know about this or get practice at this in my youth. I am laying down new tracks for my brain to travel on now, so the neural wiring is changing. If I had done this when I was younger, it wouldn't take so much effort now.

But the beauty and reward of that hard work...without drugs I can re-direct my thinking, use another part of my brain, and manage anxiety and depression. It is an active, ongoing process, like brushing my teeth or bathing. It is an act of self-care to take charge of my mind, and not let it take charge of me.

I've mentioned here before that I have a bumper sticker on my car that sums all this up in one sentence...Don't Believe Everything You Think. Our thoughts are very powerful & can shape our moods and our very lives.

Depression/anxiety is not a mental health crisis. It is a behavioral crisis brought about because psychology and medicine, unduly influenced by pharmaceutical companies, have told us we are helpless to control our own minds. Guess what docs? We are human; not sick or ill or in need of medication.

We have stopped reaching out and helping and caring and being & spending time with one another like the generations before us routinely did.

Isolation, not depression or anxiety, is the real sickness plaguing our culture today.

stinky, what you wrote is very interesting. I love your bumper sticker! Have you read books on this subject that you can recommend? Thank you-

This is a thought-provoking thread, sable.

I would like to think that controlling our brains could be as easy as brushing our teeth or bathing. But alas, I think that is simplistic and somewhat misguided. Perhaps we can tweak a low mood or outlook--certainly a healthy diet, exercise, social contacts--can help keep us cheerful on a gloomy day.

But consider my chronically depressed and suicidal daughter who has struggled with OCD, phobias, anorexia, and other mental health ailments since she was very, very young. This child was born with a brain that has betrayed her in every step of her life--a life blessed with privileges and advantages with warm family connections and friends, world travel, a lovely home, superb education, beauty, grace, intelligence--you name it. Her troubles began before she ever heard the words "pharmaceutical" or "psychology," before she ever met a psychiatrist or even knew what one was. No one advised her (or us) that she was "helpless to control her own mind." This child came unraveled at a very early age. Her brother--same home, same parents, same environment--is steady, sound, and able because he was fortunate to get a brain without defects.

Someday more people will understand that the brain is an organ affected by chemicals and hormones and structural issues, much the same as the pancreas (diabetes) or nerve endings (MS) or the heart or blood. Until then, I feel I must try to speak out about mental illness. This kind of of theorizing and exhorting someone who is suffering from mental illness to simply buck up is a kind of magical thinking that really must be addressed.

My child can no sooner correct her brain by thinking happy thoughts than a diabetic can command her pancreas to operate correctly by thinking positive thoughts. She got a brain that is deficient in chemicals or receptors or synapses, and no amount of "mind control" is going to fix her. We rely on proven psychotropic medications and therapy to save her life, and to keep her going.

I'm aware that on a day-to-day basis those of us who fall within the normal spectrum can all make small decisions and adjustments in our attitudes and life style choices--smile more, socialize more, help others more. But this kind of attitude and outlook can make little dent in the serious illnesses of depression and anxiety, both of which can be crippling and destroy lives. My child's illness was not brought about by a conspiracy among pharmaceutical companies and medical doctors. Without them, I have no doubt we would have lost her long ago.

Thanks, Nancy. Yes, I've been reading avidly for over a decade about this topic. A.B. Curtiss' work has been of enormous value to me. I highly recommend her books, "Depression is a Choice" & "Brainswitch out of Depression."

I'm sure that much of what I wrote is directly quoting Curtiss. I've read and re-read her books so many times I think I could recite them from memory! I practice her Directed Thinking techniques and find much solace, wisdom and good sense in her writing. "Depression is a Choice" is more autobiographical, while "Brainswitch" gets down to business with how-to's and techniques.

Anything by Thomas Szasz is eye-opening. He has written lots on the subject. Two that come to mind by Szasz are "The Medicalization of Everyday Life" & "The Manufacture of Madness." Greenberg's "Manufacturing Depression" also addresses the topic, and one recent find is "The Emperor's New Drugs" by Irving Kirsch.

I'm sorry to hear about your daughter. You sound like you have been through a lot trying to help her.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that Directed Thinking was "as easy as" brushing teeth or bathing...but that it must be incorporated with the same regularity and discipline that one ascribes to other routines.

I think this practice is actually one of the most difficult things I've ever undertaken in my life! Also, in order for it to have an impact, one must utilize it regularly, like one would bathe or brush teeth regularly. I'll never be "cured" of anxiety or depression, in other words.

I don't at all mean to brush off or trivialize the pain of mental anguish. I certainly wasn't suggesting anyone should (or could) merely "buck up" and get over it.

I personally find solace in the notion that I and others who are suffering intensely can find relief and change their lives for the better without drugs. I would be willing to wager that I have experienced what many would describe as severe depression and anxiety, but I don't believe that I have, or ever have had, a mental illness. My suffering means that I am human.

You must follow your heart and do what you believe to be the best, most helpful course of action for your child. I don't doubt your solid commitment and desire to enhance your daughter's quality of life.

I wish you & your daughter the best on the journey to health and well-being.

But we have a choice. I know the drug companies don't want us to think we do. I know many physicians getting kick backs from those companies also want us to feel helpless to control our minds, but that fact is, we can choose to function from our upper brain/higher mind.

I don't think it's fair to brand all drug companies & doctors as conspirators against the general public. I also don't agree that everyone is capable of controlling their own mind. While there is a true mind/body connection not everyone has the capability to make that work as simply as you state.

Your posts reminds me of an actor who accused another of improperly medicating with an antidepressant when she suffered from postpartum depression.

Personally, I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle - ever the fence straddler!

I haven't read any of the books you mention, SG but will look for them - they sound fascinating.

There is no doubt in MY mind that there is much we don't know about how our brains work and the abilities we possess and don't utilize. I feel certain we have the ability to do much in the way of self care without medications.

But I also believe strongly that we poison ourselves, our children and even our babies with chemicals and we have little concept about what they do to our bodies and brains.

For cryin' out loud - from the moment a baby is born they are sleeping on mattresses filled with toxic materials; formaldehyde and benzine to name only two. Do we really believe that doesn't mess with their little bodies and brains???

The human body is a miraculous machine but sometimes it doesn't come off the assembly line absolutely perfect. Determining where the assembly gets messed up and where we inflict damage post conception is a question yet to be answered.

We are all doing the best we can with the hand we are dealt, some with medications and some without. There is no one size fits all.

WTH, I know I said I wasn't going to comment further (don't want this to turn into the other thread!), but I have a question. Do you think there are different types of depression? I do. I believe that there are people who suffer much as Stinky posted and can work through the depression/anxiety either themselves, through counseling, coping mechanisms, etc. but without drugs. I also believe there are types of depression that cannot be dealt with without drugs. Chemical imbalances, hormonal problems, other medical problems causing the depression/anxiety, etc.

I'm not sure about a conspiracy, but I do think many doctors are too quick to offer a pill. Thankfully (and after much research, trial and error) we found a doctor who thinks as we do.

I'm also not sure about anxiety being a "mental illness" but I suppose when it accelerates to the point someone has agraphobia (just an example), that it could be. I'm thinking more like Stinky describing how she felt about driving. She was talking about working through the fear (the anxiety) which leads to overcoming the fear. No more anxiety attacks. IMHO I think most panic/anxiety attacks relate back to something. Figuring out what that is and overcoming it - to me - is much better than popping a pill to get through the attack. I'm thinking pills don't stop the attacks, they get you through them. Getting to the root of the problem and working through it gets rid of the attacks. Again, I am not saying mental illness is not a "real" illness, it is - just like cancer, diabetes, heart disease, etc. I'm also in full agreement that you cannot always overcome a medical/mental illness that there are times medication is the only possibility, so please don't misunderstand me there. Just my two cents on the subject.

"I don't at all mean to brush off or trivialize the pain of mental anguish. I certainly wasn't suggesting anyone should (or could) merely "buck up" and get over it." I didn't get that impression at all Stinky and I would think anyone familiar with your posts would not think that way.

tina

I'm not sure about a conspiracy, but I do think many doctors are too quick to offer a pill.

It is certainly a lot less expensive to take a pill than to go to weekly counseling sessions!

Stinky-Thank you for your response and good wishes.

It is interesting that you would deny that your severe anxiety or depression merit a diagnosis of mental illness. In our society, there is a irrational fear of the stigma surrounding such diagnoses. People persist in conflating these diagnoses with weakness of character, of heritage, or even a lack of moral fiber or determination. Given these fears and beliefs, it is much easier to refuse to see these states as true illnesses but rather as a kind of noble human suffering.

It has taken centuries--and we're not there yet, as we can see from this discussion--for people to recognize that illnesses of the brain are real, and valid, and as deserving of a diagnosis and equal insurance coverage and medical development and treatment under the law as a diagnosis of spina bifida.

I think that those who suffer from persistent and severe anxiety and depression--who are pinned in bed for months, unable to function with even a modicum of normality--are grateful for medications that can adjust their moods, grateful for a diagnosis that allows them to get insurance coverage, and grateful that doctors take their symptoms seriously. If everyone believed such illnesses were nothing outside the norm--merely "human suffering"-- and that anyone in that state can "brainswitch" or make a conscious choice not to be depressed--we'd be back to the days of Bedlam. I'm grateful to the medical profession that sees the truly debilitating and destructive force of such illnesses. But society has a long, long way to go before individuals can understand that a diagnosis of anxiety or depression has no more shame attached to it than kidney stones.

Interesting topic. I can see both sides of the conversation. I believe everyone is well meaning, but based upon life experiences, we see things subjectively at times. What is being brushed over here is the varying degrees of mental illnesses. Depression and schizophrenia are clearly not the same mental health problem, so the answers to each are different. And within depression, there are varying levels (situational/clinical and so forth). There is such disparity within mental illness itself. It comes down to an individual and his/her needs.

Are people overmedicated? Yes. Are there people out there who could, in theory, bring themselves out of a depressive period? Yes. Are there people who might benefit from medications, but for various reasons are not taking any medicine? Yes. Are there those who are suffering from forms of mental illness who are not able to "pull themselves out of it"? Yes. Are there individuals who need medications in order to function in life? Yes. These types of questions could go on all day long. Again, it's a case by case situation, or should be.

The relationship between drug companies and physicians leaves a fair amount to be desired sadly. Doctors are sometimes encouraged to distribute a certain form of a medication, b/c of the office's relationship with a pharmaceutical company, and yes, that does mean kick backs. It's a business. Hopefully, most of the time, ethics are in check. Sometimes, they are not. As in any situation, the patient has a responsibility to be an active participant in his/her own care. If this means questioning medication prescribed, that's not a bad thing. In the case of a person with certain mental health issues, might it be more difficult to process this information, certainly, especially for someone who is struggling with say bipolar tendencies?

I missed the first discussion about this topic. I'll have to go back and find it. I think the bottom line I'm hearing though is that everyone is supportive and wants for others to be the healthiest version of him/herself, which is commendable. There are certainly different ways of getting there. I find it interesting that in general no one bats an eye when they hear someone is on medication b/c they have high cholesterol (that potentially, in some cases can be controlled by diet/exercise), but that same person may feel they know the ins and outs of a psychosis, and can "fix" that problem without any sort of training. I wonder if it's partially due to the fact that, as someone else mentioned earlier, we are not too many years out of the "insane asylum" mentality, and the fears that surround mental illness.

Natal, I'm not branding all drug companies and doctors conspirators, just the drug companies that manufacture psychotropic drugs and the doctors who prescribe them. If you believe that these companies and doctors are compassionately going the extra mile for humanity by selling their wares, be my guest.

I never once used the word simple or easy. Finding refuge in the thinking part of the brain rather than in the emotional part, takes effort, discipline, and a huge commitment, but I do believe that with effort, discipline, commitment (& motivation & practice) everyone *is* capable of exercising control over their minds!

This is the part, ironically, that I think people don't want to hear. While the typical protest to my stance is, "It's not easy...how dare you suggest it is!" When I elaborate on just *how* not easy it is, the hairs stand up on the back of necks.

I think the real issue is in accepting and embracing how NOT EASY it is to live medication/drug/alchohol free and deal with the pain of life, which, btw, NO one escapes from!

Even if your hormones, chemistry, DNA, family history, IQ and income are ideal, and you are married to your soul mate, and in love with the beautiful visage staring back at you in the mirror, I would still insist, life is painful for you at times and you are visited by depression and anxiety at times.

Can we allow ourselves to believe that life is instrinsically hard and even if we have, and do all the "right" things, we're still going to find ourselves feeling disturbed, anxious, depressed? Let's explode the myth that we are unusual creatures, much less sick, ill and in need of medication, for having these feelings.

And KKay, I do happen to believe there is something noble, to use your choice of words, to bear the inevitable pains of life with dignity and grace. To truly bear them, learn & grow from them, is indeed ultimately the task which gives meaning to our existence.

Dlm, I agree, we are all doing our best with the information we have available to us. I appreciate that you have an open mind and want to read up on some other perspectives.

Tina, thanks for your kind words.

Natal, I'm not branding all drug companies and doctors conspirators, just the drug companies that manufacture psychotropic drugs and the doctors who prescribe them.

Stinky, that is the topic under discussion. I have to ask ... are you a Scientologist?

Even if your hormones, chemistry, DNA, family history, IQ and income are ideal, and you are married to your soul mate, and in love with the beautiful visage staring back at you in the mirror, I would still insist, life is painful for you at times and you are visited by depression and anxiety at times.

Of course practically everyone has depression and anxiety at times. But there are people who have depression and anxiety for seemingly no reason at all, and for those people some of the newer antidepressants can literally be lifesavers.
Are those drugs overprescribed? You bet! Are the companies making and developing them driven only by profit? I don't think so. There is a real need for these types of medications.

My daughter's suicide attempt was in fact the result of her being OFF her medications (unbeknownst to us) at the persistent urging of her ignorant and arrogant boyfriend, who felt that by simply trying harder, she could kick her anxiety and depression. He undid years of stability and achievement with his ignorance.

Pharmaceutical companies are businesses, whether they market insulin or anti-depressants or high blood pressure medications. Free market enterprise is not a conspiracy; it's a fact of our society and economy. There are compassionate and professional doctors in every field; they help their patients kick smoking, free themselves of debilitating migraines, or help them overcome panic disorders. To dismiss an entire branch of medicine as a conspiracy between pharmaceuticals and physicians is patently absurd.

If only taking a pill (or several) to treat depression and anxiety were an "easy" solution (as opposed to the "hard work" you espouse). We're not talking about individuals finding themselves "feeling disturbed, anxious, depressed" as you state. We're talking about people who have lost themselves in a deep, dark hole without an ability to function normally. Sometimes all the medication can do is help the sufferer sit on the edge of the bed, or take a shower; it can take months of persistence, therapy, and medicine to help someone who is that ill manage to function. That's hard work.

I agree that life has its inevitable pain and sorrows. But profound depression and anxiety are not opportunities; they have the power to strip an individual of any ability to see color, hear music, taste food, or anything else that is to be human. I'm delighted that your hard work has yielded you a satisfying life, but I am offended that by implication that you believe that those who have not achieved such satisfaction are somehow shirking that hard work--the "effort, discipline, commitment (& motivation & practice)"--that will cure them. That's what makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. Let's explode the myth that we are responsible for all our ailments--poor eyesight, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's disease, acute or chronic depression. And let's stop drawing a line in the sand between physical illness and mental illness, declaring the one valid and deserving of medical diagnosis and intervention (and free of conspiracies), and the other invalid, and a result of lack of discipline, fraught with conspiracy and evil intent.

kkay, I am so sorry for what your daughter and family has had to endure because of her illness and the ignorance of some.

kkay_md, thank you for so eloquently presenting this side of the medications for mental/emotional illness issue. Meds helped our son tremendously when he had problems several years ago. My very best wishes to your DD -- may she find peace and contentment.

Kkay - You are an eloquent voice for describing depression and its manifestations and treatments. And thank you for mentioning the stigma that unfortunately is still perpetrated by some regarding mental illness. Public discussion of this issue is one of the best ways to combat ignorance, even, for example, Glenn Close and her tee-shirt campaign. And I add my voice to others here wishing health and peace for your daughter.

Natal - referencing your mention of scientology, the aforementioned Thomas Szasz, although not a member, has worked side-by-side with that church in its efforts to debase and delegitimize psychiatry.

Kkay...I have not participated in this discussion as it is so close to my heart and home. But reading your eloquent response has prompted me to add a few words.

I have lost 2 brothers to suicide. There is not a day that goes by that I don't miss them and long to hold them and find a way to get them the help that they needed and that i wasn't aware they were so desperate for. If meds had been offered / taken they might be here today.

Depression is all through my family as are severe debilitating anxiety attacks. Short term medication helped 2 of my kids to get past the anxiety enough that they were able to get perspective and deal with the feelings that were keeping them from having a full life.

For many depressed people unless they have medication to first get stabilized they can't be receptive to the therapy they also need. It is true that medication alone is not the answer but in many cases it is the start to getting well.

My son has had decades of mental illness and has finally gotten the help that he needs and is well on the way to recovery. He has not taken any medication , and that is wonderful for him. But that is not the case with others.

Mental illness is an individual disease just exactly like diabetes and congestive heart failure and any other disorder you want to name. Treatment has to be based on the person's needs just as a diabetic receives individualized care. There are certain characteristics to each disease and to the symptoms and treatments but each person must still be seen as unique and their needs met in the way that will help them.

I am glad that this discussion has appeared here. I have told about my brothers before and my son on this forum. I have mentioned that I struggle with depression.I have received numerous emails from folks that stated they were so glad to hear another story and to know that there are many out here struggling and that support is near at hand if you know where to look .

If anyone has been helped by this thread I am very glad. c

Oh my...this thread & similar ones may the topic of the year here!

Some deeply felt issues & experiences here!

I too have some anxiety/fear feelings I'll have to admit. Sometimes just "fear feelings" of things I was never scared of! They used to be worse a few years ago, but I've never been on a medication. My "A-fib" prone heart was making me "fear" things, and I don't know why!
I used to occasionally get a "flushed" feeling across my chest. This used to scare me obviously! Turns out all my hearts'-mechanicals are fine! Just prone to that heart-rhythym I guess!! Did the Holter-monitor thing too 3 yrs. ago.

My cardiologist isn't worried at all, so that's reassuring! The ticker itself is fine. Had a Heart-Ultrasound in '09. I'll keep seeing her for annual follow-ups I guess, but she's very re-assuring about my heart. My blood-sugar needs to come down some though I guess....!

But yeah...depression, "fears", and other more severe forms are something I sympathize with, because I THINK I may have some aspect of it. It doesn't "control" me at all per se, but I'm wondering if some medication and/or counseling could be beneficial?!

Faron

I thought of another phrase here, which is very meaningful to me. I almost hate to admit that it came from a Star-Trek movie!
It does fit scenarios like this though IMO.
When dealing with issues that affect a loved-one, and the attitudes some...
So...in these cases...

"The needs of the 'One', outweigh the needs of the many".

I can't explain why....this phrase is very important and meaningful to me. To ME, it means we have to pay attention to those who may be suffering in some capacity, and that their struggle IS the most important sometimes....

Faron

Stinky, I haven't read the other replies yet because I had to comment on what you wrote first:

But we have a choice. I know the drug companies don't want us to think we do. I know many physicians getting kick backs from those companies also want us to feel helpless to control our minds, but that fact is, we can choose to function from our upper brain/higher mind.

How do you explain "situational depression?" IMO, it's the leading cause of depression.

My BF lost her DH suddenly while he was taking a nap. He was only 46. Friend called us first, we were there while he looked like he was sleeping peacefully. She was begging me to tell her what she's going to do now.

BF has a huge family, related to half the town. No kidding. She's active in the Church, has a lot of friends, but nothing or no one can make the incredible sadness of her loss go away. Not even the many grandchildren she has, and all her children live close by.

She's on Prozac now. It helped her to stop crying 24/7. It helped her get up in the mornings.

Sure my friend laughs and smiles, but deep down she's in so much pain which will never go away. It's been a few years also.

If there's a trick in getting rid of situational depression like a traumatic event which changes our lives other than taking meds, I'd sure like to know what it is. I'd bottle it and make a fortune!

It's no coincidence when psychotic meds were developed is when the "Insane Asylums" and lobotomies disappeared.

I'm glad you could pull it off though. But like I said, I haven't read the rest of the replies.

So I was wondering, did you become depressed out of the blue, or did something bad happen to you?

((trailrunner)) what a heartache for you - such loss! I's so sorry.

faron I totally get the Star Trek line - makes perfect sense. When one member of a family is in crisis the energies get directed there. That's how it went with our son - we had to act to save his life and everything else stopped. The therapist we were seeing at the time told us to get out out calendars and cancel everything - that the next year would be all about Ross. How right he was.

oakley I've been through situational depression 3 times in my life and opted for medication for 2 of them. But none of mine involved the sudden death of a spouse - I can well understand your friend's reaction.

Sable, Kkay, Trail, and other's here, thank you so much for all of your enlightening replies.

Stinky, depression and anxiety are mental illnesses, whether you want to admit to it or not. If the two weren't so prevalent I don't believe they'd be labeled as such. But they are, and like someone here said, not everyone can overcome it by merely thinking about their thoughts.

Nor do most people have the means to pay $200+/hr, once a week or more, to get an "opinion."

Trail said it well, "For many depressed people unless they have medication to first get stabilized they can't be receptive to the therapy they also need."

Faron, you know I love ya, but I have to say, I wouldn't call this the "topic of the year" lol, because it's a very serious issue for those of us who have depression/anxiety or are witnessing a loved one/friend who have these diseases.

I'm especially grateful to the famous people who are slowly & publicly admitting they have a mental illness.

Great topic Sable. Thanks for doing it.

Oakley - you just described "situational depression" in your friend. It is usually brought on by a traumatic experience. I'm not sure why you think it is the leading cause of depression. I have no idea which kind of depression is more prevelant. From what I have read and experienced, that is the type depression most people can/will come out of. Yes, your friend experienced a terrible loss and she may have trouble getting through it. Meds may be a good idea at the beginning - but she may get to the point (hopefully) where that is not necessary. Not to diminish what your friend is going through, but many people have lost a spouse or loved one. Just as trailrunner spoke of her brothers. I have watched two in my family go through this and also my brother in the loss of his young fiance. No, you never get over it, but for many people, it does get better. You get to where you go on with your life.

Many insurance plans (I know ours does) include coverage for mental health - even counseling. There are also other options. I know many who have benefited from grief (or other) support groups. That might be good for your friend. As a matter of fact, there are members in my church who are thinking of starting such a group. Of course they would not lead the group, we would have a professional doing that.

Stinky has a right to her opinion just as much as anyone here. There is no need to take her to task for expressing her thoughts. Isn't that what this thread is for? And for the record, I have not seen anyone comment here that that mental illness is not an illness. Forgive me if I've misunderstood someone's response, or missed something, but I do not see anyone's responses as making light of mental illness - depression or anxiety/panic attacks.

Perhaps Faron meant that this was one of our most important threads here at GW. I'm glad he chimed in - it is nice to have a man's view also.

I would dare say that there is not one here on this board who has not experienced depression themselves or someone close to them has.

NOTE - Whoever brought up situational depression - thank you. I asked about different types of depression. After hearing this term here I read up on this.

I have taken antidepressants too and they helped me greatly. But I am very in favor of learning more about how the mind works and how we can help ourselves, sometimes without medication. I believe Stinky is one of the most thoughtful and sensitive people here, and I'm checking into the books she metioned. I think I'm more like dlm in this regard, kind of in the middle.

Yes-

I meant it as a very important SERIOUS "topic of the year"!

NOT in our usual/casual/funny banter about life's minutia.

I know I can often come-across as an AC/DC roadie who likes the paint world, this topic is of REAL importance; and afflicts too many out there.
My Mom went thru this after our DF died when I was 14. I was so worried about her, but didn't know much about the matter then! I s'pose stuff like this is "still" scaring me in a way today!?
As I near 50 this Sept.(Dad was gone b4 He was 50...), I can't help but get fearful. He had a different medical sit. than I do though (diabetes, moderate arthritis, and a bad heart valve from Rheumatic-fever when he was youger).

Faron

Oakley, the idea that depression and anxiety are physical illnesses goes unchallenged in the mainstream medical and psychological community. That belief is the status quo and the prevailing wisdom, the present-day medical orthodoxy.
Indeed, anti-depressants are THE most prescribed class of drugs in our nation.

"Depression strikes one in 8," says the Prozac TV ad. The number is 17 million in the print version, 20 million in the Zoloft ad, 20% of women on Paxil's website.

A whole lot of fellow citizens, in other words, have finally come to understand that their depression, no less than their diabetes and cancer, is just another disease.

If your logic runs along the lines of...if so many people are doing this there must be something to it, than you will of course, leave the status quo unchallenged.

The strength you find in numbers is one of the very issues that raises the legitmacy of the whole notion in my own view. Yes, using the criteria for "mental illness" that the quizzes in the ads and magazines offer us would lead to the conclusion that indeed the whole world may be insane.

I don't believe that millions of people, by virtue of being human and feeling pain, are "diseased." SOME of them, sure. But millions?

I also find it interesting that while people don't normally like to hear that they have a disease, in today's world, in the case of depression, suffering from an illness seems somehow encouraging. Indeed, it is the small minority of people like myself who don't subscribe to the belief that depression is a "mental illness" who are stigmatized, ostracized and written off as insensitive and ignorant.

I can be insensitive at times and undoubtedly, I am quite ignorant and not an expert on this or any subject, but in my view to regard all who suffer from depression as diseased or ill is to miss some key points about the nature and meaning of existence, and to make some assumptions about life that I don't share.

As far as your friend who lost her spouse is concerned, I would imagine that she was in great pain, and deep sadness. Sorrow is not depression, btw, nor is grief or mourning. We must grieve our losses, and that can be excrutiating. Because we have loved deeply, we feel the pain of the loss of the object of that love intensely. Would you really want it any other way?

I believe in the resilience, strength, creativity and resourcefullness of humanity. It would be a pity and a great loss to drug ourselves out of our uniqueness. There is beauty to be found in all facets of life...even in our struggles, losses, and heartaches.

I know my stance on all this is very unorthodox and hard for some to understand or accept. We all do have to stand behind the understandings gained from our own experiences. However, I also want to be open to the understandings of other's experiences!

Kkay's experience has touched me deeply. My heart aches for her, her daughter, and the tough road they have traveled. I don't presume to know what is best for them, and I believe wholeheartedly that Kkay has done all she could and used what was available to her with the very best of intentions.

Indeed, I believe she has done nothing but her best, and while I may have a different approach overall than Kkay, I respect her choice and concede that in some very serious, tough cases, there is no other way, no other road to take, than the path that includes medication.

No one person knows everything...we all have something to learn from each other.

Faron, please accept my apology, I thought you were making light of the issue. But I see now you weren't.

50 is a good age to go to the doctor and get blood work done. Had my friend done it, I doubt he would have died. It was totally unexpected.

Tina, I'm the one who mentioned situational depression. It was just my uneducated guess that it seems the likely cause of most depression.

Stinky, I've never heard of depression called a "physical illness." It's a mental illness. And a disease.

If we all don't recognize mental illness as a disease, then we'll never find a cure for all of our mental ailments.

Unfortunately, most people think those with mental illnesses are "crazy." Which is why I'm glad famous people are coming out and admitting to depression, bipolar, etc.

OTOH, I also understand about the over use of meds. But I'd much rather see people take an antidepressant rather than an illegal drug to make them feel better, because they're mentally ill but have no clue.

Which is why I said in the other topic, it's in the early 20's when people usually come down with bipolar, schizophrenia and depression.

They don't tell us that in child rearing books! lol

I do admire you though. I wish I had your mental strength at times, and I think you've done great for yourself! :)

Oakley, a disease, by definition, is a physical illness. Depression is a physical illness, according to the medical model, that resides in the brain, thus affecting one's mental functioning, or mental "health."

"If we all don't recognize mental illness as a disease, then we'll never find a cure for all of our mental ailments."

But sweetheart, there is another way! To be compassionate to one another as we travel the bumpy road of life together. To not judge others when they are less than (our) ideal. To give people a break & the benefit of the doubt and a helping hand, or at least take a moment to consider what they might be going through when their behavior is "off." To view what we see as "ailments" as part and parcel of being human, rather than something in need of a cure.

Apology accepted Oakley!

Yes...I've gotten lots of bloodwork done.
Since my "initial" prolonged A-fib episode in Aug. '07, hopital for 2 nights, etc., I've had bloods done, the Heart-Ultrasound, BP-medications, etc.

So, overall...I'm under pretty good care! I wanna be around for another 100 yrs.!!
But...some worry manifestations are still present. Living past my Dad's age is "new territory" for me in a weird way. I just struggle with the fear components for some reason!

Uffda!

Faron

referencing your mention of scientology, the aforementioned Thomas Szasz, although not a member, has worked side-by-side with that church in its efforts to debase and delegitimize psychiatry.

Thanks Sable. That would explain a lot.

Thomas Szasz was one author I mentioned, among others, who "challenges" the claims, assumptions and practices of modern day psychiatry.

I am not a Scientologist Natal, but a Roman Catholic, which surely explains as much as being a Scientologist would!

It may be tempting to attribute others' world views to their affiliation with a group, but it would not be accurate to do so in my case. I take 100% accountability for my opinions and beliefs. My views can't be "blamed" on a church, a group, my family of origin or anyone but myself.

Thank you for trying to soften the blow, but any slings and arrows should point directly at me.

I don't care for your condescension. Members of the Church of Scientology believe, the same as you, that psychiatric disorders do not have a physical foundation. That's why I asked.

My thoughts align with SG for the most part, however, I have witnessed post-partum hallucinogenic psychosis and have known suiciders that no amount of self-will training or loving support from others would have prevented. There is a very real need for medicines which manipulate brain chemistry, and fortunately we have progressed in our ability to protect the most fragile in times of severe crisis. I hope that we can all be sensitive and respectful of people who have to resort to urgent pharmological interventions as the most effective and life-enhancing treatment for some types of depression, psychosis and other forms of severe manifestations of emotional distress. By and large, we've come to recognize and accept that brain chemistry and circuitry problems are indeed real physical diseases and that, just as with other diseases, there are various approaches to treating these types of illnesses.

But SG's suggestion that it is an industry that is undermining our health is well-founded. Yes, there are appropriate usages for these drugs, but caveat emptor: there are several studies that suggest there is a price yet to be determined in terms of long-term cognitive ability with protracted use of anti-depressants. Consequently, they are currently in disfavor in much of Europe after having been tried, and other more natural treatments are now more routinely explored initially. I don't think these meds are the panacea to be used to mask garden variety discomfort, and I believe that is the segment that is best addressed by SG's approach.

I concur with SG and others who suggest that far too many have been persuaded the appropriateness of dealing pharmocologically with the discomfort that is a consequence of simply being human. Grief, anger and other unpleasant emotions serve a real purpose, are often very appropriate responses, and are an intrinsic part of our journey. Often anxiety and difficult emotions are a sign that we really have difficult inner homework to do, and I'd opt for working through the issues whenever possible rather than placating through meds. (I hope readers understand my emphasis is on whenever possible and repeat I'm well aware that it is not always possible or advisable.) My SS, a neurologist, and some physician friends do not agree, and often routinely recommend for themselves and their patients meds to deal with stress and unhappiness rather than undertaking the arduous task of changing the structure of one's life and/or learning healthier responses to challenges. Ergo, it seems we will continue to be less able as a society to go down the path SG suggests.

I believe many would be better served by accessing inner resources than by pills, but also know that a requisite foundation of skills, or access to a means to acquire this knowledge, is not within reach for some. Philosophically I can agree with SG that the answers lie within, and wholeheartedly endorse our responsibility to respond with love at all times, but IRL I know some are equipped with damaged circuits through no fault of their own upon arrival as Kkay suggests and others whose circuitry becomes damaged from illness, toxins or accidents, some have been badly wounded experientially, and some just may prefer an easier way out.

I'm not sure that SG said there is no physical basis for depression.

"Depression/anxiety is actually being stuck, neural-activity wise, in the primal mind of the lower brain."

Rather, I understood her comment to signal a real understanding of physiological responses but that we can trigger better responses by substituting different thought patterns, widely endorsed by cognitive therapists and other gurus. SG is quite capable of defending herself, but I know many intelligent, non-cult, independent thinkers, medical professionals and main-stream religious and total non-religious types who concur with this approach.

There is no one path to wholeness, and while it is always preferable to rely on inner resources and loving support, it is not always possible. Wholesale dismissal of alternate, non-pharm approaches is not helpful nor is insistence on innate ability to cope with severe illness without intervention. Intelligent discussions of this type can be a wonderful resource for countless anonymous readers in cyberworld who are facing difficulties, seeking solutions and who may need encouragement to face another day.

I believe depression has a genetic component. Whether or not the drug companies are pushing their medications, I certainly see no shame in getting help that works, whatever the path.

I can't say I understand depression because I don't think I have experienced it. However I have stood by feeling utterly helpless when a loved one (DD) did. I remember wishing I could breathe for them. I've never felt so frightened. Medication worked, initially just by giving hope for a better day soon. It turned out it was a seasonal event and DD has learned to deal with it using special lights, etc. Personally I will always be grateful for anti depressants. I mention genetics because depression is rampant in her Father's side.

I want people to get the help they need. As people here have expressed by examples, the symptoms of depression include suicide. Help is warranted every single time. Like everything else, there is not a single method that works for everyone. People should not be discouraged from getting the help that works for them.

Abundantblessings, I thoroughly enjoyed your beautifully written post. You offer a very balanced, well-thought-out approach. I so value your contributions to this discussion.

You make excellent points in your first paragraph about severe cases, and I concur that interventions other than behavioral changes are indicated in those instances.

If for no other reasons than potential long-term side effects and the propensity for addiction, whenever possible, I think we are well-served to turn to natural remedies in lieu of pharmacological ones, but concede that's not always possible either.

I do think it's worth noting while discussing the subject of healing, that Western medicine is way behind the integrative medicine recommended by say, Dr. Weil and other holistic practioners who incorporate Chinese medicine or acupuncture

For example, instead of anti-depressants, which cause the brain to inhibit the uptake of seratonin, it is possible to get increased seratonin to the brain in other ways--even deep breathing exercises increase the brain's ability to produce serotonin. There are herbs and nutritional supplements which can do much to alleviate nervous disorders such as anxiety and depression.
But again, as you point out early on in your post, AB, once the nerves have been oversensitized due to trauma (such as PTSD or illness) it is impossible to overcome anxiety by incorporating thinking techniques alone. The nerves must heal...they cannot respond to our commands immediately.
If a person is deep into anxiety due to trauma or illness, the brain may be missing the neurotransmitters necessary to command the brain, therefore the instinct for fear continues to automatically activate, over-responding to normal stimuli. In other words, the accelerator works fine (the instinct to fear and anxiety) but the brakes (our reasoning power) do not have sufficient brake fluid to be able to work when we try to apply them.

I'd like to add that I very much appreciate your observation regarding my views: "I know many intelligent, non-cult, independent thinkers, medical professionals and main-stream religious and total non-religious types who concur with this approach." Thanks!