In my experience, they look not only at your annual income but also at your expenses and savings.

So, if you own your home or have a substantial amount in a savings account that will be considered as well in your overall financial picture.

I have a friend whose husband's company went bankrupt - basically taking all their savings and they live pretty much paycheck to paycheck every month. They're by no means poor, but with their monthly expenses have not alot left over. Their son was a National Merit semi finalist and had over a 4.0 GPA. He wanted to go to Duke or Virginia, Georgetown etc. Since everyone who gets into those schools is really smart, his grades and SAT scores were important but not over the top in relation to everyone else. What they did at these schools is they determined what you should be able to afford based on your income/savings etc. and then that's what your tuition was.

They determined that my friend could afford $21,000 a year for his tuition/room and board - which is a dramatic discount from the regular rate, but it was still much more than they felt they could afford. So he ended up at Ohio State in their honors program on a 75% tuition scholarship.

I do think the Div II and Div III schools can get very creative with offering packages if they want your son to swim. But, I believe your son needs to be accepted to the school first, and then they can intercede with creative financing packages.

I would go ahead and apply to all the schools he's interested in and continue to keep in close touch with the coaches at these schools. Fill out the FAFSA and see what it comes back at. Each school will present him with a financial package based on merit, need, or whatever else they can come up with.

Hopefully, he'll get accepted somewhere he wants to swim at, but I wouldn't assume that your financial picture changing next year will alter your overall financial score because you'll still have all that income you got this year, so they're thinking - hey! You've got all that money to pay for school.

The only thing I can tell you is that our high school principal warned parents that because we live in a relatively wealthy area with high home values, we could expect to get next to no financial aid whatsoever. He said "Think of college as buying a luxury car every year, and driving it off a cliff."

And that's exactly what it has felt like.

FAFSA figures out how much you can afford, according to them, which is generally a lot more than YOU think you can afford. College then offers a financial aid package, usually a combo of grants (very little money), possibly work, and loans. Lots of loans.

I had a similar problem when I went to vet school because my taxes showed my income, which was going to be all but eliminated because I couldn't work FT and go to school FT (no parental income in my case). I wrote a letter and the aid package was adjusted accordingly. I still got mostly loans, but they are at least low interest and now that I'm making money again, it's no problem paying them back.

You fill out a FAFSA every year which is based mostly on your income tax, so you may get more money in grants each subsequent year as I did. I still ended up with mostly loans though. There is much less money for post-grad than for undergrad. I didn't need money for undergrad because I chose to work FT and complete my undergrad PT- just paid the tuition as I went along. And my employer counted college as my CE so they paid quite a bit too (VERY generous, wonderful employer).

FAFSA does expect you to take out a second mortgage if you have equity (I didn't).

With the current economic state, most schools have a lot less money to offer now than when I was in school, so you'll probably get a lot more loans than you want.

Hopefully he's going into a lucrative field.

A good site to get lots of college advise from other parents is college confidential. com. They have a whole sub forum on financial aid.

My DD wanted to go to a small school DIII and play field hockey. We first started looking at schools like Swarthmore,because she is a great student but when we found out there is no merit money available, we started looking only at small schools that gave merit scholarships. If they didn't offer it they were out of the running. We told her to apply and then see in the spring what money they would offer and then pick the one with the most. There are a lot of colleges like that out there - the counselor called them "second tier". My DD is a senior this year (took her back today)at Washington College in MD and loves it! Her BF is on the swim team there btw. She got an amazing amount of merit money. We pay just about as much as if she had gone to a public university. The private colleges have much more money to give than public, even in this economy they are still giving it out. Also your local legislators often have scholarships for students- check with the high school counselor.(She got a small one of those too) Good luck!

So, you might be paying $40-50K per year so that your son can swim in college? Is that right?

I would say, this is a case where something has to give. A grant is one thing, but school loans could end up haunting you for the rest of your life.

I would not do it. As pps suggested, look into private schools that offer scholarships and grants, or stick to the state school. A BA means almost nothing these days, so why pay THAT much money for a degree that may not even make him employable? Most likely he will need (want?) to go to grad school anyway, so if the status of the school is important (for some careers it matters more than others) he could look at the Ivies then.

Is your son going to be paying for any of his education?

This was in my local newspaper this morning. Maybe there's some information that you can use. The writer said this was one of his favorite internet sites for information about financial aid for colleges. He also mentioned that some schools expect parents to use their home equity to help pay for college costs, some will reduce the amount of financial aide they'll offer if your home equity is high. Most public schools and state universities don't consider home equity in their calculations at all.

Does your son's school have an information night for parents of high school seniors to help them with applications?

Here is a link that might be useful: financial aid

My husband had to pay for 80% of his private college education & did so mainly with student loans. I had to pay for 100% of my 3 years of graduate school at a private university. Combined, we had loans totaling over $200,000. That said, we buckled down for those first few years when we were young, no kids & both working and paid the loans off over several years. (at interest rates much higher than today's loans) Of course I wish we had been able to get our educations without incurring debt, but once I paid for my grad school, I certainly appreciated much more the gift my parents had given me by paying for my undergrad. My point is, there is nothing wrong with him incurring some of the debt responsibility & it doesn't have to haunt you for the rest of your life.

I can't help with the type of college but I can tell you that I returned to college full time after working full time many years at a well paying job. The first year I returned it looked like I didn't qualify for anything because of my income from the year before. I basically appealed their decision after it came in and they requested a letter from my part time job stating what they expected my yearly income to be. Based on that, they increased my financial aid.

Thank you all so much -I think I gleaned something from every single response here. I will definately be checking out the web sites and schools mentioned. I myself worked 30 hours or more throughout my undergrad days AND graduated with loans to be paid off. The loans were not a real problem, but I do think I worked a bit too much. My son works every summer and has been saving his money, which will go toward his college expenses. But I don't see how he can possibly swim 3-4 hours every day in college and work, so that seems out at least for now.

Anyway, thank you all again so much -this is exactly the kind of information I was looking for...
lynn

Hi Lynn -

I'd just like to second the "also look at smaller, second tier" schools advice. I was very happily surprised by the merit-based financial aid my son was offered by some of these schools. Also, I suspect (but don't have any statistics to back it up) that many of the lesser-known schools are looking to add geographic diversity, and will do more to attract students from other geographic areas.

I also had some very interesting discussions with my brother, who is a college professor and currently head of curriculum for his college. He was also in charge of their recently-completed re-accreditation campaign, and gained a wealth of insight from that.

He said that the traditional 'college rankings' mentality is definitely changing, and that the importance of a schools 'reputation' is being decreased dramatically in ranking calculations in favor of more objective measurements of demonstrated learning. His advice was to search out the schools' most recent re-accreditation reports - most are available online - and to read them critically with regard to student outcomes. 'Colleges that Change Lives' is the approach he recommends, and the one he says is gaining momentum.

Good luck!

I'm not sure if I am understanding your post. Does your son have to go to a school that offers a swim program?

Private schools (if your student does well academically), will offer nice merit money and it doesn't end there. DD just started freshman yr. at a private liberal arts $40+k per year school. DD received quite a few grants as well as taking the max allowable federal student loan for incoming freshman. It would have cost me more to send her in-State public. So worth it to us to send her to the smaller private liberal arts college. As she is undecided about what she wants to do, I wanted DD to be in an environment that would help her find her passion. She is now in that place. I am thankful.

FAFSA is a joke. I won't even write the figure the FAFSA put on what we could contribute. I spoke and confirmed in writing to DD's college that the EFC determined was just ridiculous. After submitting tax returns, etc. with the explanation letter, the school started kicking in like crazy. Of course, DD is not at an "ivy" but is at a great private college.

Is an "ivy" a requirement, also the swim thing? If your son is not going to swim professionally, I guess I do not understand why you are concerned about the swim program.

In any event, best advice is talk to the schools' financial departments. Get to know the people, I found it helped greatly.

DD was late in applying to her school. Kudos to your son for being on top of the application process. If I remember, you posted in the spring when you started looking for schools, no?

Best of luck to you. This time next year you will be dropping your son off to start college!

Why are some posters begrudging the fact that the boy wants to swim? It's no different than wanting to do theater or track and field or play the harp, etc. College swimming is great for fitness, time management, team camaraderie, etc. Why wouldn't a parent want to support a healthy and fulfilling outside interest?

If it was me, after I did what I had to do with submitting everything and writing letters; if it doesn't bring it down enough, I would consider waiting a year.

My son just finished paying off 3 quarters (not years) at an art institute; the payments while he was going were out of this world. Looking back, I have no clue how we afforded it every month. He was left with a payment of about $100 per month for a few years, it got to be such a hassle, I paid off the last $7,000 myself. The loans came from Sallie Mae; their web site leaves a lot to be desired. We always had issues with passwords; you could never use the same one twice. Trying to contact them to reset it, then actually going to the site, more issues. The loans my son was given were all in his name; even the parent loan which was paid every month to the tune of over $500.

What else will he be taking in college? Besides swimming, what are his goals? Is he going to look at teaching? Swimming professionally? Or will swimming be second to something else? I honestly would do some research as to the amount of jobs available for what he plans to major in.

My son's GF just graduated from an art college in Baltimore; apparently it wasn't enough schooling to really do anything so now she's in another college (started today) trying to get another course in so that she can begin her teaching degree. She was short one class. After all the money her parents spent; she wasn't even able to get a job during the summer.

I say to wait a year because I wouldn't doubt that with the economy the way it is, colleges are going to have to adjust their fees in order for people to afford it.

While art has been my son's passion growing up; he found college wasn't for him; his "father" (sperm donor actually) gave him a nice talk before he left; telling him he'd fail and to change his mind and not go. My son tried to put it behind him but had roommate problems that he wanted to take care of on his own; I was sorry I did not step in.

My son took a year to regroup; then ended up applying at DirecTV after my stepson applied. Turns out my son has a great mind for tech service. He trouble shoots problems. He's never shown an interest in anything like this; but I'm not surprised he's good at it as my dad and I are as well. He's making very good money right now, much more then people he went to class with at the art institute.

I'm actually thankful he didn't waste all of that money continuing college.

I agree Deee. My son is on the golf team at a Div 1 school and did get a nice athletic scholarship and a little merit money for his grades, but with the time commitment it is next to impossible for him to work and go to school and do the 20+ hours a week the team requires - pretty much year round.

So, we are having to give him spending money, apt rent etc. He is planning on maybe getting an evening job this winter when things slow down a bit, but we figure it's worth this life experience to give him this opportunity.

Unfortunately, college is very expensive - not just tuition and room and board. There's travel costs if they go far away, books, stuff for their dorm/apt. It just never ends.

We didn't even bother to fill out the FAFSA because I knew we wouldn't qualify and didn't want to go through the painful process.

I am finding that most schools private and public do offer merit money based on ACT/SAT scores and or GPA.

The private schools also have much more endowment money so can be more generous. I think applying as early as you can and keeping in touch with the swim coaches is your best option. If the coach is interested in your son and your son lets the coach know he's interested in that school, the coach may be able to offer up suggestions too for funding. It's quite the poker match getting a coach/school/aid all in alignment, sometimes its best to go after as many offers as you can and go with the best program and offer. Believe me, the coaches are playing this same game in recruiting and wooing your child to their program.

Hi -thanks for all the new posts! In answer to some of the questions, yes, the boy does have to swim. He lives for it. It's funny to me because he has gotten to this point out of pure hard work and love for swimming. As an under-ten swimmer, he was so slow it was pitiful. Most of the champion undr-ten boys have dropped swimming. But DS has been to Jr. Nationals three times -after lots and lots of hard work. He is talking about majoring in physics or math and maybe even combining it with a business degree. Specific job, who knows? And yes, I do worry a little that he will take his $200,000 education and become an assistant swim coach somewhere -LOL!

A number of coaches have been contacting him and he's got a couple of recruiting trips scheduled already. As caroleoh expressed, it is quite the poker match. We spoke with an Ivy coach the other day who explained that they don't give athletic scholarships, which we knew, nor merit money -just need based. That sounds straight-forward, except I'm sure we'll disagree on the 'need based'. In general, I understand from the coach's perspective that they don't want to invest too much time or money wooing a kid who can't afford the school, -it's just so hard to know what the bottom line will be next Spring after all the finances have been discussed. Especially with the wonderful second-tier schools. They seem to have more merit money to give, so I'm inclined to pursue those in hopes of getting some of that, but the coaches there too pressure you a little bit to make a decision early on -how in the world do you do that without knowing the full financial picture?

I've always believed it's what you pay, not what it costs that matters. And as someone pointed out, it is possible to end up with a fabulous, small, wonderful, private-school education for less than a public university -because of the difference in the money they have to give out. I guess I'm just getting nervous now that it's getting close. I'm petrified of ending up in a position where he has just $40-$50/schools to pick from in the end, and no real aid from anyone... We could afford the first year, but I'm pretty sure he's not going to want to come back home after that LOL!

Please keep the stories coming -they help! Yesterday I heard about some friends-of-friends whose daughter is attending NorthEastern this year. Both parents are attornies and they got lots of merit aid. Then I heard about another kid whose EFC is "$0" and he is going to have to drop out, because he's at a Calif. school that cannot provide enough aid to keep him in...

I just read over my post, and hope I am not suggesting that we don't want to pay our fair share of ds' education. We have saved for both kids' college since they were infants. But we always felt that the price tag would be $25-$30K/year, not $40-$50K. It's a big enough difference just for one year, but it's a world away when you multiply it out over four years....

In the end, if possible, pick the best fit for your son. We ended up with the school that offered quit a bit less money than another one but we knew that the less money school would be better fit for our son, so we went with that. And sure enough, he loves his school. He would have been miserable in the other one and quit possibly even quit or transferred, which would have meant loosing the majority of the merit based award. (National Merit Honors, you have to pick a school and stick with it :-/)

More thoughts for you. My neighbor swam for North Dakota U - which ever is the fighting Sioux and his record still stands today! He is in his late 30s I believe and he was inducted into the swimming hall of fame somewhere- I admit it was a few years ago and I forget. Anyway, it goes to show you that you can be a standout athlete no matter where you go to school, state or Ivy or in between! For DD's college search I acted as the $$ screener- found small private colleges with field hockey D3 that offered merit scholarships in neighboring states as DD didn't want to go to the ends of the earth. My DD then took control- looked over the websites, set up visits and did everything else. She applied to those that she liked.When all the scholarships were in she chose the one with the most money offered. Her school this year is $43,000, not affordable for us at all without her merit scholarships. BTW kids with these scholarships know that they need to keep a required GPA- or lose the scholarship. A bit of motivation doesnt hurt college kids one bit!

That's great advice about the best fit, vs. the best deal financially. Friends of friends sent their very bright daughter to a state school not really known for its academics -because she got a free ride. She has actually adjusted somewhat now, but had a really, really tough time her freshman year. That seems a bit sad to me. Cooper -wow, that's amazing! And I agree, you can soar on any team...

One comment re: the state school and free ride. Another way to look at your friend of a friend's daughter is life is all about making adjustments and maybe being a little bit out of your comfort zone. She probably will be better off having to get used to or adjust to people, size of a school, etc. because when she gets her first job, everything isn't going to be all peaches and cream. She's going to have a job perhaps that isn't her first or even second choice, her boss may be a jerk, her coworkers steal her ideas and credit.

College is about learning and getting a good education, but it is also all about learning to live with all kinds of different people and situations. My last thought, and I'll get off my soapbox :-), most decent jobs require a graduate degree these days, having that full ride in undergrad school will give her and her parents the opportunity to go to a more prestigious graduate school and not be totally underwater in student loans.

I think undergrad is ok at a less prestigious school, but I think a grad degree from a more prestigious school will get you more bang for your buck.

This is the type of talk we heard from the school my son ended up not going to and this talk was one of the reason ;)

Keep in mind that at some schools, coaches will say quite a bit to keep a student's iron in the fire, especially in sports that have events. Make sure your son has one sure thing school that he would definitely like to attend. Coaches will have lists for each event and they will try to keep everyone interested a long as possible so if that star relay kid changes their mind at the last minute, the distance kid can quickly be pulled up into "tip" position.

The merit money at some Ivies does find its way to the less-then-brilliant athletes.

Trinity in San Antonio has been known to "buy" students away from Davidson, Rice, etc. Rice has lots of $$$ compared to many "like" schools.

punam - what type of talk is that you refer? Could you please elaborate. I am very interested in what type of school your son attends and what talk turned you off?

TIA for a response.

I do hope that my response is not going to offend anyone, no offense is intended. We all are different, we have different parenting styles, goals, priorities, and so on.
caroleoh post above mine talks about potential benefits of learning life skills in less than ideal environment. The larger school that offered a much better financial package for our son was basically saying the same thing when we questioned them about teachers and course availability and so on. The school felt that it was good learning experience and preparation for employment to deal with for example teachers that you did not have a good fit. Our experience has been that our son learns much more from teacher that he likes and has good relationship. Also we felt that he is going to college to learn academics first and everything else second. The school he ended up going to is very different. It is very highly regarded small liberal arts college. They have mini classes where students audit before signing up for a class, so they can see if they do have a good fit with teachers before making final decision. They also can pick any class they want, no set curricula and if the school does not offer a class, the students can study it for credit anyway as long as they find a professor willing to sponsor them. So it is very personalized, very academic oriented environment where the school is very much concerned that the students like it there. It is not for everyone, you have to be quit self driven to succeed, as there is lot of freedom as well. The school strives to include everyone and make them feel like home, family and they have succeeded very well. My quit antisocial and introverted son has found many friends and loves it there. He would have been frustrated and lost in the big school.
I hope I answered your question, if not, let me know how else I can help.

bestyears,

I hope you don't mind me digressing from the original subject. I'm in those limbo years between going to college and sending my children to college, so I can't contribute much to the financial aid question.

However, I have a degree in mathematics with a minor in computer science. I have a few ideas for your son to toss around.

First, I do not know if this is still the case, but at one time math (along with most sciences and foreign languages) was considered a critical shortage area for education. While I did not pursue a degree in secondary education, many of my friends received significant aid for agreeing to teach in one of those subjects. This may vary by state. My state offered a loan-type program for students majoring in those critical areas. For each year you taught in that state, one year of your loan was forgiven. Four years of teaching is a small price to pay for free tuition. (Again, this may not be offered by every state and may not be offered now, but it is worth investigating!)

Also, would he be willing to throw in a few computer classes with that math and business? If I had it to do over again, I would have added a few business classes. I work as both a software developer and business analyst. It is very helpful to be able to understand the business needs (business), design the application (logic) and write the code (computer programming). With those skills, he would have his pick of several different information technology jobs.

It's not fun to graduate from college with a boatload of student loans (BTDT), but it does sound like he has the potential of securing a job that will pay well enough to pay off those loans.

caroleoh and punamytsike- as a teacher, I completely agree with the point that students learn best when they have a relationship with a teacher. To expand on your point, students can learn to adapt to various things in their environment, and most do on a daily basis. But when they don't HAVE to continuously adapt, learning really takes off. This is why learning is easier with a teacher a student likes, when you are grouped with like students, when the classroom is free of disruptions, etc. In the example of the girl I gave who went to a free-ride school even though there were better fit schools, she has adjusted. It took most of a year, but she did. And I agree, there is value in learning to adjust. But in my opinion, not enough value to offset the negative impact on her learning. Had she gone to a school where she fit in better with the classes, teachers and students, she may have soared right from the start.

spitfire -thanks for the great input -I think you're right on. I really don't know what he'll end up doing, though honestly teaching is not something I see him being particularly good at, LOL.

caroleh - you posted that you didn't bother with the FAFSA form? I was under the impression that everyone had to complete the FAFSA form, regardless of your financial status.

The FAFSA is used for much of the information the schools use when awarding grants, etc. I would think you would miss out on $$ that might be offered regardless of your financial status. While our EFC was higher than the first year tuition at DD's school, DD received 3 school sponsored awards. While I could pay the full ride, why would you not accept award monies the schools are willing to give to deserving students? Perhaps I am misreading your post.

punam - thanks for the explanation. Actually, we are on the same page. DD is attending a small private liberal arts college that is extremely expensive, but is worth every dollar I pay because they can offer so much more in the way of faculty/student ratio - 11 to 1. DD was having second thoughts over the summer thinking perhaps she should have picked a larger school. Being undecided, I am so happy she is in a setting that will encourage her to really find her passion, not just pigeonhole herself into a major that really doesn't make her happy. Sure I know our kids must adapt in the workplace and life when they graduate from college. I am all for having my DD be mentored and guided carefully through these 4 years. For my DD, the small private liberal arts college is the best fit so I understand your position with regard to your son.

Financial aid decisions can be appealed. We did so for my daughter who just entered boarding school (same FA organization). She was a strong candidate and we were able to get double the amount through the appeal process.
Jo

That is the beauty of our country's secondary education system, there's a fit for everyone and there's really no "right" or "wrong" school scenario for everyone.

So, as parents and future college students, you just need to do the best you can to find a school that fits your child's interests and personality.

As parents, I think we need to just resist the urge to intervene and make right every adversarial situation a young adult comes into contact with. They are adults at 18 and need to learn how to fend for themselves. That's what I actually like about college - it gives them 4 more years to grow up and mature before they're really on their own.

As far as the FASFA, at the schools we applied to, it wasn't necessary for merit based awards - ie awards for grades/test scores. There was a long list of private grants/scholarships if you qualified for specific criteria - ie you had a family member that was a nurse, or an iron worker or a member of a specific union etc. We didn't qualify for any of those $$ although I did read each one carefully looking for a fit! I do believe that you need to complete the FASFA to apply for any of those, even if they stated it was a merit award and not soley need based.

At a state public school here in Ohio, the awards are either financially driven (requiring a FASFA) or merit based. My son did get a merit scholarship, but taking into account the money he got from his athletic scholarship, I knew based on our income, he would not get any need based money.

I'm sorry, but that form is a PIA and really didn't want to disclose all of our financial situation when I knew we wouldn't qualify. When I went to college a gazillion years ago, my parents filled out the FASFA because my brother and I were both in school and my mother was a school teacher and my dad a bricklayer. We thought while we were definitely not poor, with two kids in college, we were also not feeling flush with money. Of all the things I saved in the college scrapbook, I saved the response I got when I applied. Back then tuition/room& board was about $3300 a year for a state school. My FASFA came back and said my parent could afford $5800 a year for college expenses - and that was with my brother also in college. I truly do not know how they could come up with that number with two parents who had definitely middle class incomes, but again, they had no debt and no mortgage, so if you're financially responsible, you get no help.

Granted if I had gone to a private school with a much higher tuition, we may have gotten something but, I was happy going to the state school, so while I did have alot of student loans, they weren't as much as if I had gone to a private school.

You won't find me criticizing his choice. You notice that I didn't go the teaching route either! I did sit for my teaching license. I felt it was important to have a plan B. If your son would like to know a little more about career prospects, I'll be glad to give him more information about IT careers. It's not all coding. If you create a new post, I'm sure several others will chime in with more advice.

If your son is confident that he will choose a major that is heavy in math and science, he can take a year or more to choose a major without losing credit hours. (He'll need all 12 hours of calculus for math, physics, comp. science, engineering, etc.) He doesn't have to decide right now.

DH and I were just talking to a young man at our church recently. He wants to go into engineering but couldn't decide what route. I paid my way through college working for the Cooperative Education program (similar to internships) as an office flunky. I've seen which majors get jobs and which don't. It is possible to be too generic in your degree. (Unless you are inheriting daddy's business, a general business degree is going to be a hard-sell in the job market.) However, it is also possible to be much too specialized. In today's market, you need to be flexible enough to appeal to many, many industries. For example, our university had special departments for Petroleum Engineering and Aerospace Engineering. Yes, those careers pay well. But the major companies for those industries also hire mechanical and chemical engineers. With a degree in mechanical engineering, you can work in the oil industry .. or ... practically any other industry! It's hard to know what job you will like (or who you will fall in love with and move halfway around the world for) when you are 18! My point is, I'd rather see a solid, well-reputed degree that can be used in many, many industries or even several fields. You can add special elective classes during your upperclassman years to be more appealing to certain industries. Does that make sense?

Hi again spitfire -that does make sense, thank you. You make an excellent point about a solid well-reputed degree that can be used more expansively than a specialist. The latest thinking on careers is that people starting out today will have two or three major career switches -which underscores your point all the more. Thanks!

I would not be totally afraid of schools with very specific engineering majors as long as those schools included a foundation year during which students were exposed to all areas and as long as there were still electives built into the program.

Many engineering schools are "lock-step" in their approach, but the new trend is to move away from that and to cross-train engineers to see the intersections between the fields.

My two cents about school size: I went to a small, liberal arts college. It was a wonderful, nurturing environment. However, departments were very small and professors in departments often came from the same angle. Our political science department was 100% liberal. Our liguistics department was two people total. If you didn't mesh with the philosophy of the department, it was very difficult to remain in it.

Contrast that with my graduate school, which is considered "medium" sized (I think that category is 8000-14000 or something like that). The departments were bigger and tended to have professors with more diverse viewpoints and backgrounds. There was more collegiality between people who didn't agree. As a student, I took classes from professors who had views that I didn't agree with at all, but that wasn't an issue (it had been at my undergrad alma mater).

Just remember that the options aren't just big or small. There are lots of schools that don't get into the population sizes of the state Us in Ohio and Kansas while not being small and homogeneous.

One last bit of advice: ignore the lists that everyone at your son's school are making and use web tools like myroad.com and petersons to find schools that are strong, but might not consider your school a feeder. At my high school, the vast majority of students applied to the same 20-30 schools. There are well over 2000 out there, but we knew certain names because older students went to the same schools over and over again. I sometimes wish I had cast my net a little wider than I did.

Good luck!