That's a nice healthy mark-up!
I just paid $220.00 per tank of R-22 which is on the rise due to it's supposed and theorized "ozone layer depleting" properties.
Not sure what I paid for a tank of 410-A as I've only purchased a couple of tanks so far and have used very little of it. But yes, you'd have been slightly more than gouged. Especially in that the price you found online sounds like retail. Wise you were to go looking about!
Perhaps you misunderstood and they were in some way were including their service charges? Hard to believe anyone would be that blatently exorbitant.

snoringcow....thanks for the input. No, it didn't include service charges. I paid those separately. I had them out to do the yearly check and the unit that wasn't working is only for our garage. I suspected the A/C wasn't working correctly but with it being early spring I wasn't sure because we'd only had a couple of nice days. On that day, I paid to service the main house unit and paid a diagnostic fee for the other. They wanted $350 to do a leak search, add'l to fix the leak, and then the numbers noted above to recharge the unit. He wrote all of this out on their form he left with me....which is the only thing that makes me feel like he wasn't putting it in his pocket (the form was in triplicate) Thanks again!

We're at $130 the 1st pound, $59 each additional. This includes LABOR & sales tax too. Flat rate, no clock watching because properly charging a unit takes time. Put some refrigerant in, wait 5-10 minutes til the pressures & temps stabilize to see if it needs more. If it does, add more, wait 5-10 more minutes etc.

Homeowners wouldn't fathom the overhead in this biz. Try paying the gas bill on 12 thirsty 10 mpg vans. Wanna see the repair bills? Insurance? I could keep going.

Was the unit completely out of refrigerant? If not, I think you should be aware of another aspect also. If the unit was 2 pounds of refrigerant low, I would bet dollars to doughnuts they were referring to 2 pounds per square inch gauge, not fluid pounds. Not knowing the size of the unit you are referring to I can't guess-timate how much total the unit would use. A 2 psig charge on a modest residential system would use approx. 1/8-1/4 fluid pound of refrigerant.

As for charges, I'm not going to dispute theirs because I have no idea the circumstances or their costs. However, I would work along the same lines as BALDLOONIE...A rate which includes service call and labor and then additional charges for anything that goes beyond the parameters of the initial charges.

call baldloonie. A/C contractors really need to quit charging per pound and have a flat rate for charging a system to manufacturer specs. I seldom see an a/c contractor pulling out a scale and trying to weigh in his refrigerant (this method is not accurate anyway). The 'freon' is a small cost to the contractor. If his flat rate included 6 pounds of gas, and he used 8, not a big deal. The next job he uses 3.

50-60 bucks a pound here. As well. Leak search would have included repair if it was hole in line. Refilled at 50 bucks a pound.

On the subject, I just had my AC unit fixed. They charged $79 for the service call, $73 to graze the leak in the copper line. They leak was about 12" from the unit. Those charges seem reasonable, but I looked at my unit and found it holds 7.1 lbs. of R410A. The charge for the R410A was $457. When it costs $4 per lb. this seems really excessive. They were supposed to call me (I wasn't home) before the repair but didn't. I feel that this is really overboard. I haven't paid the bill yet. Would love some feedback.

Tfzumbach, its not only the factory charge in a system, you must also take in acount the size of the lines. Some manufacturers charge the sustems for only a 15' line set.

Pure price gouging. Charging $100+ a pound for R-410a when it costs less than $7 pound to buy is outrageous. There is no justification for a 12x mark-up.

I've been quoted $300 a pound to replace R410a!! Definitely price gouging from reading all your other comments!

I work In the industry. Last summer I was purchasing 410 at $82. Today I was told that the pallet of 410 that I bought yesterday at $120 is at $160 today. And will be jumping to $190 tomorrow. This is due to the price increase of minerals that are in the gas. Not price gouging.

How many pounds are in a pallet?

40 cans. 25 lbs each. $160 per can today

"This is due to the price increase of minerals that are in the gas. Not price gouging."

Not buying it for a minute - supply and demand (aka "price gouging")!!!

Ok

The increases are said to be due to a combination of increases in the cost of raw materials and increased refrigerant demand.

The main raw material increases appear to be in the price of dichloromethane, perchloroethylene and chloroform which have risen sharply this month.

Prices of the mineral fluorite, a major raw material, has risen only slightly this month and is still at a lower price than last year. The price of HF (hydrofluoric acid), which is produced from fluorite, has shown a larger rise of around 11% this month, albeit from historical lows mid-year.

The news comes as the UK and Europe face a further major F-gas step-down in 2021 to 45% of the baseline.

Only going to get worse folks. You voted for it remember? (Votes have consequences)

Here's why this is happening. Much more to it than supply vs demand. (watch the video, realize this is a multi part topic what I show in the video: Is only the beginning. )

I service the Katy, Texas area.

40 cans. 25 lbs each. $160 per can today

That is a cost of $6.40 per pound.

I've been quoted $300 a pound to replace R410a!!

Is there any other trade that commands this amount of mark-up?

So that pallet of 40 cans costs $4000, paid up front. For a large company this is nothing. Some really large companies may move a pallet a day. Can you imagine how much over head a large company has?

What people fail to see: you need a place to store a pallet of refrigerant. (costs money)

Inventory: costs money. Taxes.

Pay for it before sold: costs money.

So you don't buy a pallet of it: costs more per jug.

Price is always decided by "WHEN" you buy something. Then things like overhead, storage, advertising, labor, tools needed to use it etc. get added to the cost per lb.

$300 a pound for R410a is excessive (circa 2021). But many times posts like these are often taken out of context for what was done / what was needed. A company *may* have quoted a high price for the refrigerant because they were leaving a quote to fix the leak and included that in the price for the refrigerant. OR they are trying to discourage the *gas -n- go* market and sell new equipment. New equipment will fix those leaks.

Skill? The quote was likely a "free estimate". They found the leak, because it was free they don't tell you anything just leave a high quote. Let you play games on a forum board as to the high cost per pound that Freon is running. (The hidden cost of a free estimate. Stop kidding yourself.)

See I don't get involved in anything "free"..... and there you go. Have fun kiddos.

I figure if you're old enough to own a home, you're big enough to make these kinds of decisions. That said, I will not gas up a flat unit without searching for leak. That costs money.

Once I have service history on your home... it will tell the story. You pay for service.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

I watched your video on Montreal. Very informative. This year I had to raise my retail cost to my customers for the first time in 5 years : R22 from 110 up to 150. 410a and blends : from 55 up to 75/ lb. I was lucky to get 25lb jugs of 410a at 89 out the door by emptying my checking account on Dec.23,2020. After accounts receivables loaded the next day, I returned for more, only to find a 30 percent spike. It has continued to climb since. I have finally depleted lucky stock of wild hair refrigerants. It's been a wild ride. Hailing from Texas, have you heard of any opportunities in the CNG industry for fed-up hvac/r technicians?

If you want a more objective and comprehensive information source regarding HFC phase down and coming alternatives--without the political bent-- there are plenty of them. The following is a good start:

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy20osti/70207.pdf

Admittedly, the entertainment value is less than the video.

I watched your video on Montreal. Very informative. This year I had to raise my retail cost to my customers for the first time in 5 years : R22 from 110 up to 150. 410a and blends : from 55 up to 75/ lb. I was lucky to get 25lb jugs of 410a at 89 out the door by emptying my checking account on Dec.23,2020.

Thank you HU-741671485, When I make videos of this nature I spend alot of time researching the subject. Those from a far will chastise political bend, but these political figures are the whole reason behind the changes. So trying to make something without political bend is easy for those who wish to keep their heads buried in the sand.

Some of these places have Trigger laws that will simply follow California's lead if they don't come up with a back bone of their own. If you're a jellyfish I guess you got bigger fish to worry about than a spine.

If what they were proposing was actually fixing it I may have a different opinion but I often take the side of the under dog for various reasons... or the opposing view to provide clarity. You don't get clarity by just choosing to not talk about politics because it's about politics.

At the end of the day you choose what you can choose. One day soon --- many of those choices a home owner has now is likely going away.

Unless a company sells alot of refrigerant gas it doesn't really pay to stock up on it. If you're not fixing refrigerant leaks that stops you from selling the refrigerant that you just stocked up on so this method is becoming obsolete. The days of gas n go to the extent I believe you may be apart of is going away.

The other side of this for you is that when you're forced to raise prices even minorly the likely whole reason your customers use you is that they can't find cheaper solution elsewhere. It's a double edge sword. I know the home warranty companies often find themselves in these kinds of situations due to what the home warranty company will pay for. ( I don't do home warranties for that reason there's other reasons too, but this is a big one.)

If you're a big HVAC company with 30 techs or more with 30 trucks or more on the road? That may be close to a pallet of refrigerant right there with a drum on each truck. So ordering by the pallet for some is a more logical way to buy it than for some 1 man operation like myself. It doesn't pay me to buy it like that.

I haven't gotten into buying all these wild hair varieties as you put it. Because I knew a day was coming in which their day in the sun would end. I still to this day find R22 machines and most of the time it's a replace to R410a as currently that is the best choice moving forward. In a few years R410a (it's 2022 now) choices will become more clouded.

Buying refrigerant by the pallet may become more of a challenge if the recycleable drum becomes law. These things are being floated right now to do away with single use / non-refill refrigerant drums. They want to be able to track all the drums rumbling around in the back of your service truck / van. Enter even more higher prices, because then you have to take the drums back (probably evactuated if I had to guess) to exchange for a new refrigerant drum.

If / when this takes effect --- well I doubt there will be any who say it was a good idea.

Stay tuned... the video segments are only getting started. I've developed a page on my website to keep all this info nice and tidy.

Ray, thanks for the informative and humorous video. Few months ago I did recall an HVAC contractor told me during my quest to replace my aging R-22 system that even R-410A would be phased out soon with a new type of refrigerant but he didn’t know which one. You posed the questions in your video which I have also wondered so I recently did a search to find out,

“R-410A is a greenhouse gas and contributes to climate change. Even though it does not contain chlorine atoms, one atom of R-410A can trap as much as 5,000 times more heat than an atom of carbon dioxide. It is also closer in molecular size to CFCs and HCFCs which are ozone-depleting substances (ODS).”

Is R410A Bad for the Environment? - Our Endangered Worldhttps://www.ourendangeredworld.com › eco › is-r410a-ba...

So as people learned more about climate change, they found out R-410A is not yet the Holly Grail.

Also found this,

“R-454b Will Be the New (New) Refrigerant Starting January 1st, 2023” ???

https://www.foxfamilyhvac.com/r-454b-refrigerant-r22-replacement/

And also R-32 being mentioned on Goodman website I read somewhere.

"Those from a far will chastise political bend (sic) but these political figures are the whole reason behind the changes."

The Montreal Protocol wasn't politically motivated. It's a 1987 multi-lateral treaty signed by all of the UN member states. The primary reason for concern about ozone depletion was the increasing potential for human skin cancers resulting from exposure to UV radiation and potential effects on the environment. The science behind how ozone-depleting substances react with stratospheric ozone dates to the mid 1970's-- and it was controversial at that time. The focus on ozone-depleting substances shifted to HFCs a number of years ago due to their global warming potential. It's tough to get even one nation to agree on something. To get the entire membership of the UN to agree that reducing ozone-depleting substances and greenhouse gases are priorities, well, that's something to write home about-- no matter what your political persuasion is.

This year I had to raise my retail cost to my customers for the first time in 5 years : R22 from 110 up to 150. 410a and blends : from 55 up to 75/ lb.

I buy the R22 price but not the R410 price. Something's up there.

Is R410A Bad for the Environment? - Our Endangered Worldhttps://www.ourendangeredworld.com › eco › is-r410a-ba...

So as people learned more about climate change, they found out R-410A is not yet the Holly Grail.

Also found this,

“R-454b Will Be the New (New) Refrigerant Starting January 1st, 2023” ???

https://www.foxfamilyhvac.com/r-454b-refrigerant-r22-replacement/

And also R-32 being mentioned on Goodman website I read somewhere.

Pallisades, thanks for watching and the comments. Topic such as these can be quite boring unless you have a vested interest in watching them even as painful as some of these events are likely to be to your pocket book I do my best to keep people motivated to watch them.

The reason R410a is bad is entirely different than R22 it's more about global warming concerns. I followed this topic up with a new series called Refrigerant Wars. 3 parts to this series and they are show cased toward the bottom of my website page. link below.

So if you are wanting to understand better what, why, when and how some of these decisions are being made at your expense you know why they are choosing one refrigerant over another I lay it out for you like no one can in the Refrigerant Wars mini series (scroll down). It's pretty much cut and dry I believe if you watch each part 2a / 2b / 2c. Really nothing has yet changed other than time frames have been pushed back to 2024. There will be additional parts covering these other topics in addition to any changes that come to fruition.

In addition to that these changes that are coming are only temporary if the US is to hit the targets set by the Kigali amendment.