I would avoid the Affinity for a second floor, you will regret it. The newer Whirlpool Duets offer the six point suspension as does the Duet Sport HT (8500). The heater issue with the Duet Sport HT (8500) remains a mystery and others will debate if it works on more than sanitary(manual dated 2/06). The Kenmore versions of the Duet may offer a feature called Stain Treat. The HE2T,HE4,HE5 I believe have this feature. You would have to verify that with Sears which have this feature. Those with Stain Treat will heat on multiple cycles and Normal wash, very nice! The drawback on the Kenmore is extended warranty. The price is high and there are no other companies covering their appliances at a cheaper price. Im unsure if the HE4 has the newer suspension but the HE2T does and also the HE5. Price wise the HE2T will not break the bank and is the mate of the Duet Sport but a Kenmore. The Bosch washers have even better heating features but I am not to familiar with them. Maybe somebody else here can explain how they heat. I also keep my water heater at 120 and really have been happy with my Kenmore HE2T. Whirlpool bought back my Duet Sport 8500 because of the heating issue after finding out they changed this washers function from Whirlpool themselves. For those who do not believe me start with the CCU on the Sport 8500 with those 2/06 manuals...your CCU part number is not that of the replacement part. It goes beyond the CCU that was changed btw.

You may also want to look into getting a hot water recirculator so there's no delay for hot water anywhere in the house. Not only will it help with laundry, it will also reduce your water use elsewhere.

Another option, which does waste more water, is to run the water until it's hot at the sink nearest the washer.

I have to disagree about using the Affinity on the second floor - I don't have one, but my friend does have a stacked set in her 9th floor Manhattan apartment, and not only is there no vibration, the thing is darned near silent.

No idea about the heater in the Affinity. On the Kenmore He2T, the internatl heater is used on heavy duty, whitest whites and sanitary, but not on other cycles. I've read here that the Bosch Nexxt series has heat on all cycles.

dm your HE2T sure does allow Stain Treat option on normal cycle.

Yes it does -- I have never used it, so forgot about that cycle. Thanks.

dmlove, if it is Manhattan, my thought would be there is a 95% chance your friend's 9th floor apartment is a concrete floor over steel. It is like Europe and Asia where most upper floors in cities are concrete. my place is a wood frame with joists and plywood for upper floors, like some 90% (99%?) of American homes. so not really a valid data point because the ninth or 20th floor in most any Manhattan buildings is going to be more solid that a top quality wood frame.

That being said though the affinity does not seem to be one of the top home shakers. But I could be wrong.

Northwoods,
Thank you for your comments. My concern (deal breaker) with the 8500 is that it seems to have no warm water rinse or even adjusted cold rinse. our tap cold is ice cold six months out of the year (and I am in DC, not alaska) and there is a serious difference in rinsing in very cold water. In my mind the thing to do is first rinse in warm at least something above 45 degrees and second rinse in cold to ameliorate wrinkles.

the 8500 does not use the ATC (automatic Temperature Control) mixing system to boost the rinse temperature, which is always cold. you cannot set it to warm and the washer does not compensate for super cold tap. so in winter my rinse temperature will be 35 degrees. ATC on the rinse to bring it to 45 or 50 degrees would be ok, warm water rinse availability would be better. neither is no go.

tl45 I would consider the HE2T...it does have a warm/warm option as the Sport does not. I am sure you would be happy with it.

Asko and Meile (220v connections) will heat the water regardless of incoming temp. but I don't know about every cycle. The only American-market machine that guarantees wash temperatures in every cycle is Bosch/Siemens. Hot water recirculators save water but are huge energy wasters (you'll see it on your bill!) -- even with specially insulated pipes to minimize heat loss -- even with timers. ATC in low-fill-volume machines such as you are considering is a joke bordering on consumer fraud.

Frigidaire Affinity and Bosch NeXXt are made in the US.

asolo,
my point on the ATC was for rinse, from my title you should see I already know atc is not enough in the wash. It would be effective in the rinse. I live in the midatlantic and I and everyone north of me would be getting 35 to 40* (F) degree rinse water for three months and probably no higher than 45* (F) for another three months of the year.

ATC to warm for warm water rinse would help by at least 20 degrees. In the rinse the thermal inertia of the machine (temperature loss warming a washing drum and including cold water in inlets) would be minimal since the machine would have just run a hot or warm wash cycle.

EG on the LGs, "Warm water rinse" is ATC to 86* (F). If the machine is already warm you are going to get close to that. That is up to 50 degrees (wow) warmer than what one would get in non ATC cold water rinse in January through march in a moderate climate (say the mid atlantic).

Here is what I want in order of preference for first rinse in order of preference

1) warm mix with ATC (approaching mid 80's degrees)
2) warm mix without ATC (probable range of 60 to 90 degrees seasonally)
3) "controlled cold" via ATC (likly 55 to 60 degrees in winter, ie the same ATC mediate "cold" one finds on washers with two different types of "cold")

Unacceptable for rinse is soley unmediated cold only. This is definitely not going to get detergent out even with three or four rinses during winter and I won't buy a machine that won't let me get above 35 degrees rinse in winter.

LG seems to have exactly what make sense on several models. for example the 2277 has boost and atc for several wash cycles and atc on warm rinse. Unfortunately LG seems to have a seriously deficient service infrastructure, and with the design of these types of machines in a new state that is not good. Anecdotal information on their high spin vibration engineering is not good either.

I would also tell you all that I wrote to consumer reports abotu their AMAZING lack of vibration testing for second floor installs. It cannot be too difficult for them to simulate say three different stiffness joist/ply combinations test the machines and at least report some findings so buyers have some relative information, especially with some machines claiming to adress this.

Forum members, please do consider writing to consumer reports and asking them to develop a simulation for spin vibration compensation/dampening. I took the first four names from the "appliances" section of this web page:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/aboutus/consumerreportsorgstaff/index.htm
addressed to the yonkers HQ and asked this be included. I bet if they got 10 people from a forum that deals in washing machines they might see it is an issue they should attempt to address.

asolo - there are also on-demand branch oriented recirculators which only work if you electrically signal them in some way. Don't remember the brands, but remember looking into them several years ago. The switch that signals the line flushing can be as simple as a garage door opener type switch, or if you really want to make the whole process transparent, you could install a flow switch. It's not as instantaneous as a true recirculator, but the pump increases the flush through time by about a factor of 5 so it's pretty quick. Running the water in a laundry room sink prior to starting the washer does about the same thing except the pint to a quart of flush through goes down the drain. This type of product solves the problem where a nearby sink doesn't exist on the same water branch or isn't convenient to access. You'll typically never pay back it's cost through savings on your water bill.

I also sit on the pro-internal heater for all cycles side of things, but it's hard to believe ATC in FLers is that bad. Lots of people report that their non-internal heater FLers work just fine. You'd imagine huge class action lawsuits against almost every manufacturer out there if it was such a disaster.

Also, the Miele W48xx machines (120V) will also heat the water in all cycles. According to Miele it will use something like ATC on the initial fill, but use the internal heater to maintain the temperature. It will also use the internal heater if the desired temperature is above the hot inlet temp.

"Lots of people report that their non-internal heater FLers work just fine."

I know most people do say that. However, most people have no idea -- and never have -- what their actual wash temperatures are. The dial says "hot" so that's hot to them. (In any event, that's all they can get without a heater.) ATC must do what it says because the manual says so. It does do what it can. In principal it works. It practice, with low-fill-volume machines it doesn't. It can't. There simply isn't enough water to work with to manage the compensations it claims to deliver.

For example, with my Duet9400 starting with 130F water from the first drop on a full load, the machine thinks "hot" is 100-105F. It thinks "warm" is about 90F. Those are the actual drum temperatures I get during the wash on hot and warm settings without using a cycle that engages the heater. That's how much heat the drum and full-load take from the incoming water. ATC cannot deliver enough additional hot water to compensate for that drop.

ATC is simply not dependable in low-fill-volume machines. Between low-fill-volume, pipe-lengths, and water-heater settings there just isn't enough to work with to depend on it to do what it says it will do. On-board heaters are the only way to accomplish the task dependably on such machines. Otherwise, you just get what you get temperature-wise. Better in some installations. Worse in others. But not dependable.

ATC is best suited to agitator toploaders...Not frontloaders and HE toploaders.

tl45 -

Wild - 35F winter cold water, and I thought my 40F in New England was bad! I share your concern and you have to wonder if many FLers going for a tap cold rinse is brought on by the desire to get the best Energy Star ratings possible. Have to say that even at 40F, the high speed spin of our previous Asko (~600 g force) would extract huge amounts of detergent even though the water was tap cold. After several rises like this never thought we had poor rising at the end even though it was all with cold water.

Another solution you might consider if you have access to the plumbing lines is to install a mixing valve (e.g. thermostatic-pressure balancing shower valve) where you can set your "cold" water temperature going to the washing machine.

asolo -

Thanks for the data. Always figured you'd get some heat loss, but never thought it was as dramatic as you've measured. The data makes a strong argument for having an internal heater which works in all cycles. Have to wonder why the Bosch Nexxt and Miele 48xx are the only ones that heat in all cycles.

For the washing temps of Duet9400 above....forgot to include...starting temperatures for the machine and clothes was about 72F. "Cold" tap water for this measurement was about 74F. All measurements with insta-read analogue kitchen thermometer.

Okay, so the Bosch Nexxt and Miele 4800/4840 are the only FLs that use the internal heater in all *wash* cycles. Do they use the heater in rinse to ensure a minimum rinse temperature, or are rinses done tap cold only?

"Have to wonder why the Bosch Nexxt and Miele 48xx are the only ones that heat in all cycles."

GordonR:

These are major makers for the European market. I lived in Europe for 10 years. There are some very big differences in the way residential washers are used.

1) European washer hookups are almost exclusively cold water only. All washers have and use an onboard heater.

2) Household current is powered by 220/240 volts. This deosn't make much difference for powering motors and electronics, but makes for much faster heating.

3) Washing machines in Europe are on average half or less the capacity of ours.

4) Residential construction in the US is dominated by wood framing. In Europe you see way more used of steel reinforced concrete framing even in single family homes.

Items 1 and 2 tell you why European washers have heaters, and why their usage does not affect cycle times as much as it does here.

Items 3 and 4 tell you why while there is a long history of non-problematic vibration with residential top loaders in Europe, there is often a problem here.

perel,

Can't speak for the Nexxt, but Miele told me the heater is only used in the wash cycle. Rinses are cold.

FWIW - played scientist and experimented with my shower valve to see if the idea of putting a mixing valve in would really work. Of course you still have the hot water in the line flush-through issue so to make it work you'd want to super-insulate the hot water line. With that issue taken care of the idea does seem to have merit. My tap cold is 45F right now, and with the water flow set to about 3/4 gal/min (to simulate a worst possible case where the washer doesn't fill quickly) I could regulate the water to come out to a warmer temperature. For example it was really easy to create a 60F output temp.

"Another solution you might consider if you have access to the plumbing lines is to install a mixing valve (e.g. thermostatic-pressure balancing shower valve) where you can set your "cold" water temperature going to the washing machine."

LOL, I appreciate the thought, but it is funny to spend probably $100 to have the mixing valve already in the washer in the form of the ATC , and then have to spend it again to get a a non freezing cold rinse in winter!

tl45 -

I know what you mean. The machine knows how to do it, but it won't do it. In a perfect world you'd be able to get exactly the features you want and nothing more or less in whatever machine brand you want. Unfortunately it's not a perfect world. The idea only makes sense if there is machine that is everything you want except it doesn't give you the option for a warm rinse.

Regarding your situation...

As you've noted, the LG machines seem to give some ability to give you a warm rinse. It's still far from clear which wash cycles use the internal water on LG machines. The manual says, "Internal heater helps to maintain water temperature at its optimum level for selected cycles". You've also noted some discomfort with the LG brand.

The choices which do use the heater in all cycles are:

1. Bosch Nexxt line which might be considered at the high-end of the mid-level pricing, and from reading the manual doesn't appear to provide any direct ability to get a warm rinse.

2. Miele 48XX line which isn't mid-level price as you desire and it only does a cold rinse.

3. The smaller euro FLers from Bosch/Miele/Asko would also heat in all cycles, but only do a cold rinse. Don't get the idea your looking at these more compact machines.

The mixing valve idea is wacky, but it might be a practical solution given the choice of machines that meet your requirements other than warm rinse.

Let me help clarify the LG TROMM heat issue. As I have mentioned before, in the LG WM2688_Service_Manual.pdf, it is very clear when this machine heats the water. On page 14, there is a very detailed Program Chart that shows precisely when the heater is active. In the column labeled, "Wash", you can see a subcolumn labeled "Heat". It shows as being potentially active during all wash cycles, except "Rinse & Spin" and "Drain & Spin". This can be verified by pushing the "Wash/Rinse" and "Soil Level" buttons simultaneously anytime during operation. You get a real-time readout of many sensors. The bottom number in the second column from the left is the actual water temperature in Celcius. Its very handy. You can watch it rise if needed during the wash cycle. (Although your kids will look at you like you've lost your mind: "Hey Mom... Dad's staring at the washer again.")

The same Program Chart does not show any activity on the heater for any rinse cycle. I therefore assume that the "Warm Rinse" is provided by mixing inbound hot/cold water to obtain the warm temp (as defined by LG as 40C). Of course, when that small amount of water mixes with the combined mass of clothing and tub, it will loose heat rather quickly. I have never checked the temp during the rinse, however, when the "warm rinse" is done, sure enough, the clothing is always warm.

What, to me, is odd, is that you cannot select a (Wash/Rinse) Hot/Warm, or Extra Hot/Warm. Warm Rinse is only selectable in a Warm/Warm condition. The Hot and Extra Hot washes all have a cold rinse.

I sure wish I could hack into this thing. I was able to get my TiVo to do many things it wasn't supposed to :) ... I just don't have the time anymore for fun stuff like this.

"What, to me, is odd, is that you cannot select a (Wash/Rinse) Hot/Warm, or Extra Hot/Warm. Warm Rinse is only selectable in a Warm/Warm condition. The Hot and Extra Hot washes all have a cold rinse."

purely a result of chaising energy star and other low energy uses.

if it was cold default that would still do this, why they have to remove the option as user selectable on so many machines makes no sense

Has anyone else had problems with LG steam washers not getting hot enough?

On a hot cottons, mine is only getting to ~40*C and not 50*C as it should (as stated in the service manual). On a sanitary setting it normally gets to 65-70*C. I do have my water heater set at about 130-135F (55-57*C) and the pipes are insulated.

I am also having problems with 'dinking' noises on the spin cycle and a dribble of a leak from the drum seal. I rarely use the SteamWash cycle because it does not seem to remove odors or stains at all.

Has anyone else had these issues? This is already my third machine, and I love it apart from these frustrating problems.

Hey Bargainacious, Maybe those spin cycle noises are the water supply hoses vibrating against the back of the machine while in the spin mode. My Duet steam washer does that now and then. (The wife wants it back against the wall)

I did some tests with the heater in my LG and learned a few things.

The inlet valves ON/OFF times are adjusted depending on the water temperature entering the washer.

The heater is 1000 watts.

It can only raise the 4 gallons of water 1°C every 2 minutes. (with heat loss of clothes & drum)

Hence, not used during the 4 minute rinse cycles.

If the heater is on about 10 minutes during a wash cycle, it would only raise the water 5°C.

The Sanitary wash cycle is about 60 minutes. Plenty of time to raise the water temperature.

Also noted in LG service manual:

Built-in Heater
"Internal heater helps to maintain water temperature at its optimum level for selected cycles"

the key word here is MAINTAIN not raise

"What, to me, is odd, is that you cannot select a (Wash/Rinse) Hot/Warm, or Extra Hot/Warm. Warm Rinse is only selectable in a Warm/Warm condition. The Hot and Extra Hot washes all have a cold rinse."

One option would be to connect the cold water inlet hose to the utility tub SPOUT. Turn the cold faucet on fully and LEAVE IT THERE and adjust the hot faucet partially as needed.

As an extreme solution, how about a small or tankless hot water heater dedicated to the laundry room? The run would be short, and the temperature could be set at what would be a level unsafe for use elsewhere in the home.

I found this on Sears site. They have a link to an Affinity brochure I have seen nowhere else. It says: "The Affinity 8000 washer uses an internal heater to maintain the optimal temperature in every cycle, from cold wash to the high-heat used in Deep Clean Sanitary Cycle. It maintains constant water temperatures throughout each cycle, maximizing your detergent s cleaning power and giving you cleaner , brighter clothes."

It was on the Affinity 7000 page description, so I assume that the heater will work the same on all the heated models.

Here is a link that might be useful: Affinity Laundry Brochure (1.23 MB pdf)

again, the key word here is MAINTAIN (used twice in the above brochure).

If the input hot water is 130F it will maintain it at that temperature, if the hot water input is only 110F the 1000w heater can't RAISE the temperature much in the given amount of time.

In the UK we have very good detergents which allow for washes at 30degrees centigrade - the lowest heat on my Bosch - 86 degree F. My sheets & pillowcases come out sparkling white, shirts spotless and everything smells lovely - especially as I nearly always line dry.

NO NEED FOR HOTTER WASHES - except for very dirty loads - hot washes are a myth to encourage you to donate more money to the power/oil companies - your choice!!

Sylvia

We have detergents in the U.S.A that also work in warm and cold water washes.

BTW I sometime order laundry products from the U.K. What are your favorite detergents and fabric softeners?

Was looking at the manual for the Kenmore HE5t-Steam...

It says this machine uses it's internal water heater in the following cycles:

Normal/Casual
Bulky/Bedding
Kidswear
Heavy Duty
Whitest Whites

and "Steam Sanitize" can be chosen as a temperature option in some of these cycles.

This is an advancement from the HE5t where Heavy Duty, Whitest Whites and Sanitary were the cycles which used the heater.

Steps in the right direction.