ollie - copy and paste your post to a word document. If this gets pulled, although I have no idea why it should, you can make a couple of edits and re post your question.

I don't know what the point of the post is, except maybe to continue the drama from the other one by bringing it in, but if you don't like your SIL and are so judgmental about her human being, rest well knowing she knows it. Why would you expect to be getting along, having "fun" or her want to join you for the holidays? That is an absurd concept. I'm sure she finds you, your sister and mother just as difficult and bossy to be around as you do her. Drop your expectations, and just let her be *her imperfect self, as imperfect as the rest of the group. This kind of petty judgmental crap ruins gatherings and it ruins families and other relationships.

Not the same situation as yours at all but we have our own flavor of dysfunction. DH has a family feud going this year that will probably result in us not getting invited for the usual holiday gathering. Previous years it was another family member who was blackballed - this year it will probably be us. In a way it's not a bad thing as I've decided this year I'm going to find a Christmas Day activity where we can spend time with the poor, elderly, people who are alone, etc. I'm tired of the pettiness and materialism of Christmas and want to do something in the true spirit of the holiday.

P.s. I thought your defense of oakleyok on the other thread was spot on, though I don't remember the details now. I was surprised to read this one, since she had been very clear on asking people to stay away from commenting on and psychoanalyzing their relationship, which she is fine with and enjoys. Maybe your thoughts from there could be applied to your sil.

This post was edited by snookums2 on Fri, Nov 21, 14 at 14:46

olliesmom, you were so kind in your defense of oakley in the thread that was deleted, that I just had to say I feel the second post on here is Way Over the Top.

I

I get along well with my parents in law and we have been invited to travel with them a few times (hope that's a good sign) but we're very different in a lot of ways which caused me to overstep my bounds a few times. I try to be sensitive and nice to them and I think they try the same with me.

Personally I believe the best way to proceed is like you said, have your events that you want to have, ignore rude behavior and go on your merry way! I use a "benign, fuzzy" ignoring technique on behavior I don't want to encourage. For example, if I like to have a glass of wine and someone looks disapproving, just pretend I didn't see the look and keep pouring the wine. I use this technique a lot at work (not with wine per se - I wish!). I guess it comes down to what's their business and what's my business. I see my business as being polite and kind, but doing what I want as an adult. And they can take care of how they feel about that. I have also perfected a very noncommittal smile and nod.

PS I too would avoid the restaurants with such a dining companion!

PPS Not always, but I find people who are overbearing, judgmental or a bit bullying will often back down when confronted in even a mild way. I have an inner icy well of rage I can call on when someone is rude to me - few people do it twice although I am nothing but polite when responding to bad behavior. Also very useful at work!

maddielee, that e-card is HILARIOUS!!

Generally speaking about these sorts of threads: My mother never said a single word about personal interactions within my family in public in her entire life. My sister was married to someone who is literally a sociopath, and when they divorced he was never mentioned in any disparaging way publicly and when the divorce was final, she never mentioned his name publicly in any capacity. No one had any idea of what she thought of any of her children, their spouses or any other member of the family, probably even less so if she was Not happy about something they were doing. She reported our activities in a neutrally positive light.

This might seem a bit stiff and rigid to people who are used to venting about all their personal grievances publicly, but the older I get, the better I like this policy.

This post was edited by palimpsest on Fri, Nov 21, 14 at 14:16

I sometimes imagine, when reading a post like the OP shared, how the *other* person would write about the same situation.

"I just found that once again my husband's family has decided not to include me in a holiday gathering. I really don't know what more I can do. We've been married a long time and I always try to be cordial. I send cards and gifts, I watch what I say so I don't offend anyone and my husband tries when we are together to take the lead, because it's always been clear they don't like me and are just tolerating my presence. In fact, they have already been having family parties and deliberately excluding me, even before the freeze out this time. I guess now that my mother in law has passed, her daughters have decided to drop any pretense that they can stand being around me.

I'm sure the best thing to do is let it go. I do socialize with their cousin, who has always been a good friend so at least my husband and I have that connection."

My point is...every story has two sides. In this situation, if your FIL still enjoys having the family together, I'd say for his sake, be pleasant and cordial for a couple of hours. If he doesn't, maybe it's time to let it go.

And your disdain and dislike for your sister in law is clear, regardless of a stray 'we love her because they have been married so long' (seriously?!) that you insert into your narrative.

Ann

I used to have a few issues with a SIL. Now I don't see her at all because my dear brother died a few years ago from cancer. A long, painful, slow death.

I'd rather have the pain in the butt sil and my brother back.

snookums, this is blowing me away! I guess I should have left out the part about Oakley-DIL-MIL thing but my intention was not to talk about Oakley at all! After all the explanation of my SIL, you think I want to talk about Oakley's post?? Now I'm scared to even write her name. This wasn't about her! It's just that when that person posted it (even though it wasn't true) it made me think about my mom's situation with my SIL, but with us too. So, sorry, I wasn't thinking when I wrote that.

For one thing, my mom was not difficult and we are not bossy! Far from it, I think it is the other way around. We are fun loving family except for my SIL who acts like a bump on a log 90% of the time. She goes around and counts how many pictures my parents had in their house of the grandkids and then reports it to my brother, who then gets mad about it. Lots of things like that. Ever since we decided to not walk on eggshells around her-she just rarely comes around.

Sunny, you are right, in that, I think she is a very unhappy woman. I have often thought she has a depression problem but we would never know because everything is so private in their family. Not saying, she should tell us anyway. I probably wouldn't. I think that is part of it, that their family has always put a wall up and we never know anything that happens in their family because even the most minute thing is private-and my parents and my sister's family, although we never shared very personal things, included our families. I guess what I am trying to say is even though my DH and DS are my family, we were able to include each other

Marlene, would LOVE to hear some of your stories! LOL!

Again, I am so sorry for bringing Oakley's name over here. I truly am! I was not thinking and now that it's brought to my attention, I see.

This is a legit post about my SIL and holidays!

Ollies, I edited my P.S. post before seeing you'd been back, to be clearer what I meant. Please reread it, but I see you now realize the references included your op were extraneous.

I'll bet if you asked ten members of any extended family who the difficult family member is, you'd get a whole bunch of different answers. Almost everyone has relatives they dislike or find it hard to get along with - at least some of the time. There's a very useful Polish saying that translates to "not my circus, not my monkey". In essence it means not my problem. We aren't responsible for other's choices, behaviors, actions or feelings. We're responsible for our own. It's sensible to make reasonable accommodations for the comfort of others, especially guests in our home. It isn't reasonable to have to walk on eggshells, greatly alter our communication style, or change our personality so some else isn't offended. She shouldn't expect that of you. You shouldn't expect that of her.

It's polite to invite her and her family to family gatherings. It sounds like you've already figured out that you should just be yourself when she's around. If she doesn't want to be with you all as you are, she can decline invitations or not show up. It sounds like she's already figured that out too. You just have to make peace with that and let it go. If she does participate, she'll probably behave and make judgements based on her own value system. While it sucks to feel judged, find a way to let it roll off your back - not your circus, not your monkey.

My sister and I don't like each other. We are uncomfortable when we are forced into social situations. The discomfort we feel makes us act very differently than we do when we are comfortable.

So the person you see might not be the person she is. Since you are both unhappy when forced together, neither one is probably showing your best side. That's not going to change, just like my situation won't.

So, in my case, I avoid social contact with her as she does with me. Then I've chosen to leave the negative energy about her on the sidelines as well.

Ollie, if you posted because you don't want to feel alone about your SIL, then you have come to the right place.
I also have a SIL that I just don't connect with. Many reasons, may issues. But, she is all my DH has left, so she will always be part of our lives.

No matter what the conversation, this woman will annoy me with the way she questions me. Whenever I have to speak to her, I take a deep breath, tell myself to hold back (because I know she will annoy me!) and then proceed with the conversation.

I have a very odd older sister. It's the way she is, and if I want to have a relationship with her, I have to accept it.
Here's an example. My other sister was very hurt that our older sister never calls her. She will email, but my sister feels that she sometimes likes the human contact of a phone call! When the first granddaughter was born, who wouldn't want to hear the excitement in the person's voice sharing this special event?
I emailed my older sister explaining how my other sister felt. I saw how hurt she was and wanted to intervene. Older sister writes an email to both of us and say that she doesn't like talking on the phone and that is just how she is! (BTW, is you call her, she will talk your ear off for over an hour.)
To me, this is odd in many ways. First, that she doesn't care to compromise. "My sister feels hurt, so maybe I should call her once a year, even if I feel uncomfortable doing so?" Nope!
Second, she certainly can talk on the phone when you call her.

My sister and I have decided to just let this go. It is disappointing, but the alternative would be to not have her in our lives at all. We're not ready for that.

I can go on and on, but I'll leave that for the next person who would like to share their dysfunctional family woes.

I have a perfect SIL, just like yours. One time she put MIL and her 80+ yo DM out on the interstate as an ice storm hit. Told them they better get out on the road before it got REALLY bad....

She thinks we are just rough hicks, and that is OK with me.

My BIL used to catch a plane to come see HIS DM, and call her and tell her he was tied up in town, so he would be late for dinner. She would not give him " permission" to see his own family. Hers live on the next block.

I think some people are paranoid and think everything is about them. Those people are difficult to deal with at holidays and during the rest of the year also.

Agree that The Other Side's perspective on all these inexplicably personal threads would probably be quite enlightening.

Not my circus, not my monkey. I like that - have to remember it for future use.....

She is very judgmental, very religious to the point she tries to be perfect-never says things that shouldn't be said, in other words-BORING as heck!

Does she actually says things to you or others that are critical or mean? Or do you just think she must be thinking them because she doesn't say much and you know she is religious?

I can find very quiet people difficult to be around because of my own insecurities and projections but if you are indeed projecting things not there/uncorroborated, you are as guilty as you think she is.

Or maybe she's like me. I'm very quiet. I also have no filter. If I say what I'm thinking (and I will if I don't censor myself first) I'll end up unintentionally offending at least 75% of the people around me before the night is over with, and I wouldn't want to do that. Some of it is just saying things without thinking first, the other is having an extremely dry sense of humor that doesn't translate well to those who don't know me and my skewed way of looking at things very well.

She could very well be as awful as you may think she is. It could also be that she's so afraid of being judged or offending all of you that she's not comfortable being herself around you.

The subhuman my BIL married accused me of trying to kill my MIL as she lie on her deathbed. She drove a huge wedge between my BIL and I (she had only just married him but ive known him almost 25 years) and has fractured his relationships with his former step kids (he`d raised them for 20+ years). She is a wretched person and i am more than happy to spend zero time breathing the air in her vicinity. So my DH will go see his brother, his only living immediate family member left, on Sunday while I happily stay at home.

Pesky, how are you and your husband doing? Did you resolve anything? You have been very transparent about the issues in your past but have never talked here about anything new from that point of hurt. I am not being critical but I am curious and concerned based on all your previous topics. Seriously, are you ok?

My husband's brother's wife is a lunatic and her whole family are lunatics. The MIL actually put a curse on the family (seriously, no joke, she said this) and wouldn't "lift the curse" until my DH's brother wrote a formal letter of apology.

Fortunately, I've only met my sister-in-law once. They live in a different place. She doesn't allow the brother to come home. He's been home once in 8 years, for our wedding, for a day, and he wasn't allowed outside (it was an outdoor wedding, he stayed in the house w/ her).

I feel bad for my MIL (who I like very much) because their kids are her only grandkids. She sees them a lot (mainly b/c the brother & wife continually beg her to come to their city (far from where we live) for weeks at a time to babysit. They won't put their kids in daycare (they both have very, very good jobs, probably combined 7 figures, but won't pay for a babysitter, daycare or nanny and make MIL pay for her flight out). She's very careful not to badmouth but it is not very comfortable for her to go there I don't think, based on the stories she tells....

My mother's family was terrible too. They were very pouty at my mom's funeral b/c they didn't get the good seat (?) and were mad I knew everyone but did not formally introduce them to all my mom's friends (or something).

IMHO, keeping ties w/ lunatic people is overrated and pointless, even if they are blood related.

A lot of us have that mil. The one that tells her son he will pay for the sin of marrying you. Over the years she has done many thing that are overlooked.
But there comes a day when you say no more, and you don't want anything more to do with her. My husband(her) son took Ill made appointments with the doctors at the mayo clinic in her town. She made him stay in a hotel while there, she lives in the home he grew up in. Then she my mil left town, went to a casino for a long weekend with her daughters, she had not seen her son in 6 years. The last time was when he went to see her, she had had a surgery.
He only saw her once on that trip. All of this because of , " something I said".

Her sister was in the hospital for two weeks, knowing she would not go home again. She did not let my mil know she was dying. My mil had had the sisters dog put down while caring for the dog.

Oh and then my mil invited my husband up for Christmas just three months later.

My war story.
Josephene

I think I'll go hug my mother in law. Just goes to show if you put your troubles in a pile with everyone else's, you'd grab your own back.

How about a rousing game of Dysfunctional Family Bingo?

Bumble, thank you for asking. I am doing extremely well. I will provide an update on a new thread should anyone care to read or comment.

**Double post** smart phones~ ugh!

This post was edited by pesky1 on Fri, Nov 21, 14 at 20:24

OMG! Some of these stories are sad-but, funny at the same time. It does make holidays not-so-fun when you have to deal with relatives who aren't as pleasant as we are-LOL!

pal, just wanted you to know, my mom has only spoke her mind twice in the 30 years my brother and SIL have been married and that was because my brother brought it up. My mom, nor I, have never spoken bad to SIL, maybe we talked about things my SIL thought we should be talking about, like I said, we started being ourselves instead of walking on eggshells around her.

She's actually just "nothing" around our family-just sits there, rarely contributing anything to the conversation, etc.

I guess I am bitter because I feel she ruined the relationship between my mom and brother by my SIL being jealous of how many pics are up, how much more my mom watched the other grandkids, etc. The reality is, my sister and I took our kids to see my mom and dad all the time and actually had a relationship with her. Both sides have to try, YKWIM? They lived next door to her parents and were very involved with them. Inevitable almost, if you live next door to the grandparents, those grandparents will be closer to your grandkids.

mesventoux, my SIL has a filter! That's the problem-she doesn't say anything and saves it all when she is alone with my brother, which in turn, has to hear how bad his family is. Our family is actually very good, if I say so myself. We are down to earth people with very good morals and love our kids and involved in our community and are very good parents. She is judgmental about having a good time!

I know it's a strange thing because she doesn't do really bad things and I guess maybe I should just be glad she has a filter instead of the other way around.

I will have Christmas at our small house, and she may or may not come, will probably say she is allergic to cats this time, but I will suck it up. Even though the year after my mom died, they had a small Thanksgiving and didn't even invite my dad-left him alone. We were out of town. I would not have left town if I had known that, my dad was for sure they would have him over, but, no, just their immediate family. So, yes, I am still mad about a lot of things, but will keep things together for my dad now.

Just have to say, I love my MIL! But, she lives about 3 states away! We talked all the time though, and I would have her live with us if she would, but, she is understandably very close with her daughters there. Love my SIL's on my DH side too, but they don't have filters sometimes-but that's fine with me.

I remember my grandmother telling me that if I were ever to marry, I should make sure he was kind. But she might just as well have said: “Find yourself a man who’s nice to waiters.”
Rachel Cooke, The Observer

...Next time you’re on a date, watch how the person you’re with treats your waiter. If they are nice, great and if they are not you might excuse yourself and not come back because chances are they are not such a nice person.
Michael Van Horn, The Social Chef

If someone is nice to you but rude to the waiter, they are not a nice person.
Dave Barry

robotropolis, have to say I love your post! Will definitely try your technique and will perfect my noncommittal smile and nod!

grubby, love that name! I see how the waiter analogy is true. It really bugs me when people are rude to waiters, like they are beneath us-that is how my SIL acts. Weird, how she is so vocal about some things.

I wish I could respond to each of you-I have read each one-even the couple of posts that seem to have a lot in common with my SIL.

I said this here, because I was venting, mostly. I would never say this to my SIL-just wondered if there were other's in the same boat as me during the Holidays.

My first husband was 100% Italian. His mother was the first born in this country. She was very old world. She wouldn't sit down and eat with us. Just constantly serving us. My two BIL's were constantly yelling at my husband and belittling him during any holiday meal. I always left there with a major headache. I dreaded holidays.

My family and DH's all get along well enough to enjoy a few hours together.
Of course, there are those I wouldn't otherwise choose to spend time with!
Many of us probably make comments that irritate others, but that happens in life.
Our problem with family get-togethers has been a drug-addicted nephew who began to ruin the few hours of the one day we all got together.
He kind of single-handedly ended it for everyone.

We are for the most part a large loving family-- but we are all spirited, opinionated and stubborn. We've endured deaths, divorces, failed businesses and most recently an unplanned pregnancy in the youngest generation. Sometimes there are tensions and disagreements-- and there are a few in our tree who hold onto them as if they were the family jewels.

My youngest sister and I work to keep the holidays upbeat and tension free. We do it for the kids and for my father who loves holidays. We have hand/eye signals to alert each other to the need to break up a conversation, add levity to a competition or engage a quiet kid in the corner. Sometimes she'll just wink to me from across the room to say, "yes, this is perfect!"

I think it does take some effort and a conscious commitment to keep things happy. Let's face it, bringing a large number of people together on one day and expecting everyone and everything to be at their best is unrealistic-- at least in my world it is. You have to find a reason to do it. For us-- we want the kids to have the great memories that we had.. and honestly, there's nothing better than to look across the room and see my father beaming like a kid. This is what I work for.

Once you commit to having a great holiday and have a reason to do so, it becomes a lot easier to let a rude comment slip by or to find something to say to the person with a sour face. I can be an "F that" kind of person but when it comes to my family and the holidays, I choose to make it all about giving and thankfulness.

And yeah, some years it is way more work than others-- and then there is thankfulness that it's only a few days a year! LOL!

Olliesmom,

I would just like to mention that the one thing that really stood out to me in your post was that you think you SIL is a good mother and makes your brother happy.

If you feel this way, imagine how wonderful it would be for your SIL to hear you say that to her. We all struggle with our difficulties in life. And at the end of the day we can never know another's troubles.

But a 30 second comment like that from you might be a generous source of comfort for both your SIL, your brother, and their entire family. And it only costs you 30 seconds of your time.

I think if you feel that way, that telling her (or even telling your brother if you don't feel comfortable telling her) could do more good than you can even imagine.

ollie, I had a SIL that was a total PITA. Everyone would be having a blast then she would arrive and everyone had to be on eggshells. Looking back on it, I wish that I would have just let it roll off my back like water on a duck. I would give anything just to have that old dysfunctional family back together. My brother finally divorced her once the kids got old enough and now he's gone off and remarried someone even more crazy than the first one. At least the first one you knew where you stood with her, the second one wouldn't know the truth if it slapped her upside the head. So anyway, my suggestion to you would be just to not worry about her and just do what you can to ignore it, laugh it off, and be glad you aren't married to that...HA! Just think about how much worse she could be, she could be a drunk, a liar, a two timer...etc etc.

arkansasgirl, funny you say that, I have thought about it could be much worse. But, your

"Everyone would be having a blast then she would arrive and everyone had to be on eggshells"

is EXACTLY what it is like at our holiday gatherings. Just sucks the life out of everything. But, I will try harder.

zackey, so funny about your Italian MIL, I can just see that scenario!

funky, your line

"I think it does take some effort and a conscious commitment to keep things happy. Let's face it, bringing a large number of people together on one day and expecting everyone and everything to be at their best is unrealistic-- at least in my world it is. You have to find a reason to do it. For us-- we want the kids to have the great memories that we had.. and honestly, there's nothing better than to look across the room and see my father beaming like a kid. This is what I work for."

That is why we have done it all these years, and, I still have an 11 year old, and want him to have good memories, so good to read that.

melsouth, I guess I should count my blessings that I really enjoy everyone except one. Surely, every family has at least one that they aren't crazy about.

Julie, I really will give that some thought, thank you. I will look for the opportunity.

I really want to thank those that have contributed in a supporting way, and those that did, I really have learned something and makes me think and dig down a little deeper to what I should do.

I think Julie's suggestion is really, really really good. It certainly couldn't hurt and it might make all of the difference in the world.

Funky, last year when you started a thread about what gifts you were buying for your family I asked if you would adopt me (not because of how nice the gifts were but the thought behind them). Again, after reading your last post, I wish you were a member of my family. :-) Because of your post, I think I am changing my thinking on how I was going to handle an upcoming family gathering. Thank you!

I had to go back and read what funkyart said. When I read the part about seeing her father beaming, I immediately started to cry! I miss my mom and daddy so much and to just have that old family get-together back would be worth listening to my SIL griping because we started without them even though they were an hour late. I wish I could just go back and ignore that crazy ol' sister in law and not give her the satisfaction she was looking for. Really, just somehow try to let it go in one ear and out the other...it really is her problem.

gibby3000, you said, "I've decided this year I'm going to find a Christmas Day activity where we can spend time with the poor, elderly, people who are alone, etc. I'm tired of the pettiness and materialism of Christmas and want to do something in the true spirit of the holiday."

I've always wanted to do that too. How are you looking for something, and have you found anything yet?

marti8a, google Thanksgiving volunteers or Christmas volunteers to help in your area. Also call your local Meals on Wheels.

It is indeed rewarding. It takes so little to make someone in need happy.

Even going to an Eldercare home to spend some time with those who have been forgotten can work miracles.

I love both of my MILs. My first DH died when he was 45. He was my best friend and a marvelous husband and father. My first MIL stopped talking to me when I remarried but I kept pursuing a relationship with her because of my children. After five years or so she came around and has been part of our lives since.

I just visited with her today at the nursing home she is in to make arrangements for her getting her hair done and arranging with her care takers to have her ready to join us for Thanksgiving. She is no longer able to ambulate but my DSIL will be able to get her into their car and fit her wheelchair in and when they get to our house there will be enough young men there to get her in the house.

My newest DMIL & DFIL, (18 years with my DH compared to 22 years with my first DH) will also be there as always. They all get along well and my DH knows I will do the same for his parents if they have to go into assisted or skilled nursing care. I count my blessings that I have had the honor of two sets of in laws.

WTBS, my son can be a real stinker at the holidays but at least he still comes!

Marlene, thank you so much for your kind words! They mean a lot to me. Best wishes for your holidays-- I'll be thinking of you!

Whenever I find myself wanting to judge someone, I am reminded of the following quote (don't know who said it): "Be kind. Everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about."

I'm so warmed to read these last set of stories! But reading holly-kay's story reminds me of my friend and her situation.

Her daughter (actually her step-daughter) got married a couple of weeks ago. My friend's DH's first wife died of cancer when their two daughters were almost 3 and 9 months, so the eldest really has almost no memory of her biological Mom. My friend has been 'mother' to them for almost their entire lives but they never have let 'Grandma A', their biological grandma, be out of their lives. Grandma A was at the wedding of the eldest daughter too. A candle was lit in honor of her mother, all grandmothers were present and sat together, and it was a truly sweet moment with no jealousies in the family. How it should be.

Holly-Kay, What a nice homage to your late husband, to treat his mother so lovingly.

Outside, Nice story.

Olliesmom, Everyone's holiday table has a dud around it, or missing from it, no? As long as the dud isn't you, seize the day and enjoy it. : )

You know, as a very quiet, not outgoing, fairly religious, raised in a very different family than my in-laws --- they had a lot of complaints about me. I also felt that I was walking on eggshells too, but all I wanted was for them to be okay with the fact that I am very quiet and don't drink. They ASSUMED that I was judging them because I don't drink alcohol but rarely and attended church faithfully. I don't, I didn't care. They assumed that because talking in a group is difficult for me that I was judging them. And so on and so forth. In fact they were judging me. I didn't drink coffee then, either, just didn't like it. Even that was an issue for them. I was just too different and that wasn't okay with them. This is how extreme it was -- they never ever called my by my name. Some garbled version of it, but never my actual name. So eventually I didn't want to be with them either.

The OP implied that she knows the content of the conversations between husband and wife once they are home. That really disturbs me. I do hope that her brother isn't betraying his wife's confidences.

I saw this today. Made me laugh, especially with this discussion in mind. I hope no one takes offense.