I don't like the arch. All the other openings are squared with casings. Then there's this arch that's neither. It doesn't fit the style of the house, and the proportions aren't particularly beautiful.

If you don't like the French doors, I'd suggest making the same opening as if you were putting them in, including the casing, so that it makes sense.

Well, the OP was criticized earlier for everything being square.

I really like the arch, it adds a different element and creates a much more usable space. If it works for you, that is all that matters!

Pllog, do you like the french doors? Did you see my previous post on the topic? In that, the opening is very square, and as beachlily comments, there was criticism of that. Do you prefer squared off to french doors?

My kitchen will actually have 2 similar smaller arches: one leading to the powder room and garage area and one to the basement and dining room. These are original to the house. Also, I have two 4' arches, one from my entry hall to the living room and one from the living room to the dining room. I think the problem is that the family room was added on by previous owners about 20 years ago (original house is 1936) and they did not keep the addition consistent. So the addition is a bit of a box and I think the arch might throw it off a bit in that way.

I like the arch - but would like to see it arched more - maybe the corners angles down more? (not an angle - but curved). it looks more like a square arch right now.

any home i've lived in with arched doorways to rooms had squared corner windows and doors also. the open doorways were all that was arched.

Desertsteph, Do you mean that you don't find it inconsistent with my house? I get what Pllog says - hers was my reaction when DH also suggested an arch. I guess everyone has a different point of view.

No matter what you do there's going to be criticism. You have to please yourselves in the end.

Yes, I saw your previous when it came up and looked in a few times, but didn't say anything because I really didn't have a preference on yes or no doors.

It's not that a house with arches can't have squared doors and windows. It's that this house, which, in the renderings, is all divided lights and white casings. An arch thrown in just for the sake of mixing it up looks out of place.

As I said up topic, I don't really have an opinion on whether or not to have the doors, but I'd do the casing the same. Re having the doors: If you want to be able to shut away the kitchen, get the doors. If you want it to look open and flowy, don't do them. With the doors, the renderings are very repetitious, but that's because there's no color or life in the drawings. I've been in houses that are all french doors like that, that are gorgeous.

Not only do I think it'll look a lot better with the door casing, that also gives you flexibility. You can put in or take out the doors with very little fuss or bother, so if you don't like your choice you can redo it.

Something else to consider is altering the door presentation. For instance, you could paint the kitchen side of the lights, and mirror the FR side, you could put those curtains stretched between two rods top and bottom on them, or in some other way make them opaque, if you want them to be more shut.

if you put the french doors in, there going to be open 95% of the time I think so I would leave it just open. the opening however is too wide to do an arch, all you are really doing is rounding the corners, there's really no "arch". So, I would leave it square.

Are your ceilings tall enough you could do a transom at the top of the doorway--if you're looking for some interest

or like pllog said, sconces, curtains--all those create interest too

why don't you trim that opening out like your other "door" oepnings, that would make it look better too

I am with pillog in that you should do what gives you the best flow for the house. Whatever you chose to do, respect what is in the rest of the house.

Having said that, I think 3 divided French doors look odd. But I also see that it gives you the functionality of leaving one open without intruding into the other rooms. I think it can look quite nice if you create some uniformity. Personally, if you must have doors, I would put the matching French doors that are already in the family room....

Functionally, I would prefer to have the doors that can be shut since you will have the TV in the other room. I am of the opinion that you need to shut the noise and distraction of TV from the other parts of the house that should not be infected by it. But that is me. If you, the owner, will not be bothered by the TV, then you don't need the door. If you need the TV shut off from the kitchen, then either you need to put the door or move the TV elsewhere.... Only you know how you want your house to function. Once you establish the function, then you can start working on the form.

Unfortunately, because of the angling of the wall and the short run of the wall, you can't do the pocket doors, or the standard French doors that can be left open 90% of the time without intruding into the rooms. This is what is creating your design challenge.

I think a house needs a quiet room (this can simply be the well appointed bedroom, if you chose) AND a room that can be shut where the inhabitants are allowed to make alot of noise, includes TV, gaming, stereo etc. You need to make sure both of those places exist in the house. Do YOU have a place to go if your DH/children watch loud movie or play obnoxious game? Will you be forced to suffer in the kitchen?

Just MHO....

Oooops! Sorry. Forgot to address the arch thing fully. If the point is bringing the arch element into the family room, it needs to be done in series so that it ties back to the rest of the house. I don't think that the arch you have pictured matches the one to the powder room. The shape is too different if you've depicted them correctly. And you'll lose the openness that I thought was the point of not having the doors if you make the opening smaller and archier. It'll work okay if you repeat the 4' arch that you have elsewhere in the house. Though I think the proportion will be off, and it'll look plunked in, rather than integrated.

Kaismom brings up the door design, which is an important point, but I guess I was thinking that those weren't set yet.

If you go with the doors there are several options, including pivots. You can do your multiple panels as pieces that turn in place at the center, then slide over to the side(s), keeping the door panels within the casing. The opening is big enough that this would leave plenty of room unencumbered.

Even though the french doors are busy, I think they will work fine now. I am glad you were able to rearrange and take the hutch out. that is what make the space look much too congested. I know you really wanted to be able to have the doors, so I'd get them. I don't care for the rounded corner opening, but if it's similar to the opening in other places in your home, it would work OK too. I really like the way those two angled walls flow into the kitchen. It creates interest in the room!

Our original renderings had a similar opening between living room and kitchen area, and we were going to use sidelights (but no doors). I was excited about it, but we ended up knocking out the entire wall. I can look for the drawing if you're interested.

All very good feedback. I originally wanted DH to draw this up with the moldings, but apparently he cannot do this with the program. I agree that the arch takes away from the openness and defeats that purpose. Not sure what you mean Plllog about the pivots, but I'm sure DH will.

I also think Plllog makes a good point about the renderings not giving an accurate represenatation of what the doors would look like.

Ccoombs, that space was driving me crazy! I think the built-ins will work well on the long wall.

I think it comes down now to the french door opening with or without the french doors. The decision now is which is more important, the openness or the benefits of the doors. I think the doors might be intrusive on the one hand, but beneficial for smells, quiet, privacy and heat conservation on the other. I know we would save alot on heat, because we would close off those doors after dinner and just use the family room. The two spaces are on different heating zones.

So, just a bit more obsessing on my part, but I think I've narrowed it down based on all your comments. Thanks so very much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where are you with respect to framing? Is there any reason you can't just frame out the opening a bit larger than both the doors and the arch and then make a decision once you are further along in the process.

Also, to get an idea what a cased-opening will look like, can you put in a double French door and then open them all the way into the living room? The view from the kitchen side with the doors open should give you an idea.

FWIW, I like the French doors as long as all three sets are the same style.

Do not like the arch at all. Love the French doors but I would play around with the configuration because I would want the door opening in the center. Meaning that I would want the operating doors to be framed on both sides by fixed sidelights.

In that case, Lucretzia, I'd definately go for the pivots if they can be made to work. You have the look of the divided light French doors, and the function, but still a large opening with the doors not so sticking out. I'll try to find the links John gave me when I get to my computer.

Basically, instead of being hung on butt hinges on the sides of the doors, a pivot allows the door to be hung from the top center. When it is open, the door turns 90° and moves all the way to the side, so that half the door is in front of the jamb, and half is in back. It looks like a good way to handle your space where there's no really good place for the doors to go. If you really do want three doors, rather than two and side lights or something, there is also track that can be installed top and bottom, and used with a different kind of pivots, so that all the doors can pivot and be pushed to the side.

Segbrown, are you happy with your decision?

We are at the point of having to make a decision on the framing. I'm going to see if we can do something like Plllog suggested: frame it with moldings with the possibility of adding the doors later if I think I prefer the enclosure. Don't know if we can, but will ask DH and contractor.

I would like to know Plllogs and other opinions on the sameness of the french doors. I personally don't agree in terms of matching. I think people here are referring to same size of mullions. I don't think that can be done on different size doors. And I don't believe there is room in a 6' opening to do what Ci lantro is suggesting.

I think it's more important to have the same number of lights (window panes) to make the doors look right, more than the size of them, though they should also be the same proportion. That is, all vertical rectangles, or horizontal, but not both. But I think what people are talking about is they don't like the three door treatment.

Do you have actual photos of the existing arches? If you could match the other arches in form, I think it could work. My concern with the doors is how they are going to "rest" when they are open. I think with any of the solutions the are going to be in the way somewhere.

The building I live in (1838) has cased openings, pocket doors, sidelighted openings and archways, and my feeling is if was good enough for classicists in the Greek Revival period, its good enough for me. My arches (reproductions) are cased and the moulding is custom to match the historical so it doesn't look like a cop-out.

We are happy with what we did, but our space is different because it isn't slanted like yours (which is really cool, BTW). We wouldn't have been able to fit enough furniture in the other room with a partial wall, so that's why we did it. But I loved how the sidelights were going to look.

Here's a pivot hinge, which attaches top and bottom, and turns in the middle. It works on double doors with a latch set in the middle. But I think this does require a metal frame--a lot of hinges do--so it's something you should prepare for if you think you might want to use it.

Here's a link to some hardware which was recommended to me. Scroll down for center pivots. I have trouble understanding which is which of these. Some show and some don't, and some are side and top hung and others are top and bottom. Your GC and/or tech minded husband can probably explain them better. But that's why I linked the drawings above as well. Good drawings :)

I like the square look without the doors, personally. But I would never look at the doors and think "she shouldn't have put those in!". It might be nice to have the option of closing off the family room, but if you would rarely do that anyway, the doors would just eat up space.

C. None of the above.

I would look best to have the opening be open. No casing or framing or anything. It really segments the rooms too much by having a wall there. Now, if you want the rooms to BE separate, then put a real wall with a plain door. No french door. No half measures that look like half measures and aren't one way or another.

The arch looks very ill-conceived and "cheap builder-grade" to me. It fits nothing in the house and looks completely out of place and not thought out. It looks like a box that was checked--"Look! It's upscale! It's got an ARCH!" (while being nothing of the kind....)

Open, framed, or French doors--anything but that terrible arch.

I agree with Hollysprings. I would just leave it open. My SIL has french doors b/w her LR and FR. They take up allot of room in the LR which is a small room to begin with and also make that room kind of dark.

I think that all french doors are too many doors. Will give a look as though you are in a cage or something ... and therefore an opening into the FR is better.

An arched entryway into the FR definitely creates that arch as a focal point and is therefore fabulous!

A complete arch would look great but even the squared arch with rounded corners ties in very nicely with other French doors.

IMO, if I had French doors in that opening, chances are that I'd keep them open all the time anyway -- thus making a strong case for removing them altogether!

HTH.

Oh my, so many different opinions.

On the technical suggestions you've all made, I've got to have DH read later as I don't get this stuff.

I'm also going to ask him to take a photo of one of our 4' arches and post here. Of course, they are plaster and have a certain heft I think that is somehow discernible. Unfortunately, our small kitchen arches are gone and I don't think we have any pics of them, but we intend to recreate them. Never wanted to photograph my old kitchen!

In terms of the comments about not closing the doors, I'm sure during the winter they will be closed whenever I am not going to use the family room. This is for conserving the heat. During the warmer months, I like everything open, including windows, to let air flow throughout the house.

Hopefully, whatever we choose will be like threegraces commnets about the french doors - that no one will look and say - "what were they thinking!"

Also, didn't anyone notice our Mona Lisa's on opposite walls of the small french doors? The BH&G program is supposed to be able to reverse them and I thought it would be nice if they were smiling at eachother, with that little crooked smile :-) A little diversion because this can make you pazza!

I'm looking at the rendering of the arch. Though this is the shape of the arches in our living and dining rooms, and there are no casings (or moldings as we call them here), I think what is looking funny is that those arches are between several feet of wall on each side. So it's making this kitchen arch look puny and phony.

Am I making sense?

I have a similar set of doors going into my sunroom because I don't heat and cool it like the rest of the house and I love them! My opening is wider though, around 9'. So there are two 3' sections that open into the sunroom and the 3rd is fixed. There is no way I would have given in on these doors. To save energy, they were an essential part of my plan.

It seems to me that the doors are pretty important to you. If you really want them, I would include them. I'd just be careful of how many lites they have so they don't end up looking too busy. Clear glass might be a nice option too. The problem with the lites is not because of these doors, it's because the lites in your two other doors already don't match each other. So pick the lite pattern in one of those doors and make the new french doors match that one. That way you won't have 3 different looking sets of doors.

Ccoombs, do you have a picture of yours? It sounds nice.

We're going to experiment with a variety of ideas and post later. I have all weekend to figure this out before the contractor returns on Monday :-)

This looks lots better without the hutch!

I think I feel the same way you do about doors. When I asked our designer who was taking my design and putting it into construction drawings what he would change, he said, "You have too many doors!" I told him I needed every one of them, kept them all, close most of them daily and the others weekly, and thank my lucky stars every day that I didn't listen to him! So it seems to me that you should keep these doors for all of the very good reasons you gave, ESPECIALLY because you can't multi-task in the kitchen with noise (I'm the same way), or you will probably regret it.

I have a somewhat similar situation at the end of our lower level TV/WS room that sort of funnels down as you approach our stairs--a set of 48" wide double doors on the furnace room on a slanted wall on the right, a set of 48" double doors on a closet that juts out into the room on the left, and a set of 54" double doors to the workshop sort of straight ahead, just past the bottom of the stairs that go up to the right. I had planned every inch of our house, but the closet was an afterthought. When the 3 sets of doors were installed, I thought, "Wow, that looks cool!"--just like I HAD planned it!

So, in spite of the irregular nature of the space, the thing that I think makes it work is the absolute sameness of the doors and trim, as well as the relative distance between them. But it's definitely not symmetrical. Our doors have no glass, and are stained 3-panel oak with with a simple 3-1/4" arts & crafts trim. We don't have all of the competing glass around that you have, since there are no windows in this area.

Because you only see your 3 sets of doors from the family room, and with your seating arrangement really only facing the 2 sets of doors to the interior of the house, this will probably work out ok. I'd make the doors to the kitchen double doors, and have them open onto the family room walls, and have the lites, trim, height, and frame width match the doors to the dining room as much as possible--make it look like they were all put in at the same time. The sliding door to the deck will look different no matter what you do, but I'd try to get the other sets of doors to match it in trim and height, although I'm guessing that you won't be able to match the sliding door lites' design, since your pictures are showing different styles. Also, take into consideration the lites' style on the exterior windows of the family and dining rooms when you're finalizing your sets of doors.

Not sure I'd put glass doors in the cabinets in the family room, since there's already so much glass in this room.

In any case, can you try this out with a double door in the 6' space, see if you think it might work, and let us have a look?

Anne

Jimandanne, Thank you for this thorough analysis. You must really be a good listener too!

I think you made some really good points. DH is going to try the double doors and I think your point about the exterior windows and glass in the family room cabinets are valid too. I think if we go with the french doors, we should see if our small french doors in the dr can be changed.

I'm glad this is helpful. I was going to suggest changing the DR doors, but was afraid it was too late. I changed a couple of sets of double casement windows as we were building because I realized a triple would look better in one location, and a single transom would be better in the other. Hated to spend the money, but it made a big difference and I enjoy them every day!

If you decide to change the DR doors, then I'd work real hard on matching the 2 sets of new doors so they look like they belong with the lites in the sliding doors and/or exterior windows. This all could come together really nicely!

Anne

DH has created a number of different views based on all of the feedback.

The first is open, squared, and with moldings. The next set are the French door variations with the lites matching better (DH will spring for changing the DR doors if this helps).

Finally, there are some pictures of the existing arches in the house (built in the 30's); excuse the mess - it was just before we moved in and the walls/floor needed repainting.

It is hard to know which way to go with arches. The flow from the entry to dining to kitchen passes through 3 arches. The kitchen will have 2 arches over openings - one from the garage and one from the dining room. However, the family room was built in a more modern style (no moldings and squared features) but has removable grills to imimate the real fixed mullions.

Open 2

French Doors 2

French Doors 3

French Doors 4

Existing Arches

Lordy, I think I've lived there!

The arches do not look anything like the family room. There's no way you're going to match that thick plaster look, though 3/4" wall board would make it better. I see now why you were drawing that squared arch, but I still think it's a big mismatch for the FR. I think it's better to let the modern part be modern and the '30's part be '30's.

I'm wondering if you couldn't get more of the look of the louvered doors? They probably don't give you the sound and heating barrier that you're looking for, though modern ones might be a little tighter. If you got operable louvers you could adjust the amount of communication between rooms too.

Looking at the picture, I'm not thrilled with the french doors with side lights. They change the proportions too much.

The new pictures point up another problem: Cream cabinets with white woodwork. I don't mind it for things like windows, but it's more apparent in the new drawings, especially the one with just the casing. The molding can be different colors on either side, but the actual casing, the underside of the lintel, would have to be one color or the other. Similarly, with doors on, since they'll be standing open sometimes, would show the one room's color while standing in the other room.

RATS! Because I do like it with the doors. And you find the doors useful. And I think you need the doors. Just how white is the real woodwork? Or you could paint them an accent color that works in both rooms, like the FR hutch that was in an earlier picture.

Plllog, which doors do you prefer? And you prefer the doors to the opening with casings?

What problem have I created with the creme cabs and woodwork? I did realize I was creating a problem. I was thinking in the kitchen of painting the molding and doors the same creme and painting the door trim and ceiling atrium white mixed with a small percentage of the creme. Would that not work on the french doors?

What program is that? It's so cool!

Anyway, of the new options you posted, I still like the open with the molding "Open 2". Of the doors, I like "French Door 3" The others are too busy, at least in a drawing they are.

My vote remains for open. Ultimately, you gotta go with your gut, but since you asked for opinions ;-)

Threegraces, it is Architectural Home Designer 9.0 from Chief Architect. (Better Homes and Gardens also supplies it). Thanks for the feedback.

I am in the planning stages of my kitchen remodel and I had the same decision to make. I decided to nix the french door idea, as beautiful as they would have been, in favor of an arched doorway to match the others in the house. My house is a bit chopped up as it is, so having the doorway open should make room transitions flow a little nicer.

Good luck with your design!

I think I'm not getting any feedback because this thread has got mixed in with another.

Anyone have thoughts on the last options posted?