Anything I don't feel is fair I will mark as UNSURE.

Bathroom Extras (these really were extras):

Plumbing charges, labor & materials: $889.75 (the shower now semi works).
Misc Carpentry to open, patch & paint wall (tiny square): $175 (wasn't discussed but fair enough)
Overhead: 10%: $106.25 (UNSURE).

Total: $1171

Kitchen renovation:

Contract balance: $1000. (Fine).

Total: $1000.

Extra Work - Not in Contract:

Structural floor Repair - replace rotted floor joists. Labor 16 hours. Material. New Subfloor: $984.90. (UNSURE).

Replace 2 recessed lights. Labor 1 hr. Materials: $145 (UNSURE as I definitely asked for this to be included).

Compliance list: 15 hours of labor: $525 (????????? UNSURE).
Misc materials: $50. (this may be the chimney cap so ok).

Credit Dining/ Bar wall: -$300.

Total: $1704.90 - $300 credit = $1404.90.

Ok, so here's the deal with the dining room wall. Part of the contract was to open up the wall between our living room and dining room wall above the bar. They took a look inside it after work started and said it couldn't be done as there were too many pipes and stuff that needed to be reworked.

We had just discovered the Floor Joists the day before, so I asked if we could just switch the money for opening up the wall, to replacing the floor joists. The GC said fine. Obviously that is not reflected in this bill either.

So it boils down to this. My guess is that I am SOL because I didn't make them put each line of caulk into the contract because the GC said it was no big deal and no problem. Correct?

Or do I have any bargaining power?

We do also have a huge scratch in our hardwood floors which is hidden underneath a rug which they caused moving a box and I asked them to fix. No response on that either. I was going to just let that go, but now I'm not so sure.

I have a decent relationship with another GC or two. Would it be worth asking them for quotes to open up the dining room wall and if they come in over $300 to use that as leverage?

I guess I believe we owe:

Bathroom: $1064.75 (even though it's really not working great).
Contract balance: $1000
and MAYBE $200 on those extras for the materials.

Total: $2264.75

They think we owe: $3575.90

Difference: $1311.15

Any thoughts? Be grateful it's not more and suck it up? Remind him of our conversation about using the wall opening money for the floor joists? Send a check for what I think we should pay saying it's full & final payment and see what happens? Get the GC who was going to do the work before his brother had a heart attack to give me pricing on opening the wall and see how that compares to the $300 credit?

Anyone? Please? I feel like I can't think clearly about this any more because the guy just irritates me too much.

Thanks!

There are several ways of looking at this.
1. The GC is one of those meticulous guys that charges you for everything and charges you on items that can be accounted for. If so, this is what you owe him.

2. The other GCs had alot more room to "pad" so that they did NOT need to charge you on "little" things that crept up.

3. Some GCs just "eat" the difference and give you the work for free. They maybe nice guys but are terrible business people. They may not survive the tough times. If so, you can't call them back later to fix something that may have been their screw ups. (We have had that happen!) (I see this alot in the GC business. They come, they go.)

I think emotionally, the second system feels better to the customer because you are not nickled and dimed for little things. But from the GC's point of view, the first system maybe more "honest" way of accouting for every little thing.

We have had all of the above kinds of contractors. None is trying to "scam" you. They are making an honest living doing honest work. How would you like to have a job where you have to account for every hour you spent on your work and have to bill for it? It is not easy. I think you have to ask yourself if the kitchen got done in a reasonable cost without "unaccountable" delays. If okay, I would pay the bill, and be done with it. If it really bothers you, then write a letter stating what you will pay, pay that, and see what happens.

On the side, everything your GC does requires time and effort on his/her part. They have to make phone calls, be there to tell them what to do and coordinate how to get it done. This is the GC cost. Only you know what is "fair" in the GC mark up.

BTW, in our part of the country, GC charge is 12 to 15% overhead (up from 10% 10 years ago....)

If you saw a lawyer and gave you "additional" charge that came and above what the estimation was, what would you do? Professional people are hired for their expertise that you do not have the skills (or the time) to carry out.

I know exactly what you are feeling. We had huge bill a few years ago from a very remodel. I felt as if we were taken to the cleaners.... I don't see too many small time GCs laughing their way to the bank. The ones that I have hired do honest work and make an honest living, IMHO.... I hope yours is one of those.

Good luck.

Thanks for the response.
I just hate when people say one thing and then do another. Is that considered ok business practise? I don't know - I wouldn't survive in my business 2 minutes if I did that.

I also won't use these guys again or recommend them to anyone else. I just can't because I don't trust them. It's a shame because I gave our last contractor SO much business. I'm in real estate and have people asking me for recommendations all the time. I wasn't happy enough either with their work or this billing situation to feel comfortable givng their names to my clients.

Ah well, such is life - we can only recommend people we are comfortable with and even if my GCs memory improved now, the trust still won't return.

Having spoken to my husband we'll probably just pay these bills but never use them for anything else.

You only received a $300 credit for the work of opening up a wall? That doesn't see to be enough to me. Weren't they planning on doing the finish work or were they going to leave a gaping hole?

I don't think there would be anything wrong with calling the contractor and telling him that before you pay the bill you want to review a few items that you question. Really, there's nothing wrong with doing that at all. It doesn't have to be confrontational; you're just questioning some items and giving him a chance to explain the charges. go over with him what you've outlined here and see what he says. It shouldn't be a problem. He may concede on a few charges and bring the bill down a bit. If not, you haven't lost anything.

Hobokenkitch,

When it comes to my wallet or a friends wallet I never
think a person is overreacting. I think you are wise
to questions the expenses.

It is hard to face but sometimes we have to pay a little
extra for good work. And I know the work is good because
your kitchen pics (I have seen in the past) were
gorgeous. Truly a beautiful transformation. Is it worth it?
Yes, but he is price gouging you? I wish I knew for sure.
I imagine everything is more expensive than fair.

Does this mean you are overreacting? NOt at all.
Be firm, demand fairness and talk to the GC about all of
this. Look him in the eye in a calm way and explain
you work hard for your money as he does and you both
want to come to a fair agreement.

I wish you luck and I know you will find the best path.
~boxerpups

The thing that stands out to me is that you should be satified with their work before you pay them. If the bathroom isn't working correctly, they should fix it. If they put a scratch in the floor they should fix it. I would definitely hold out money until those were taken care of.

Now, about your list of discrepancies. Sit down with the GC and go over each item until you understand what the charges are for. If you disagree with what he tells you, discuss it until you come to an agreement. He probably doesn't remember every detail of every conversation (especially if it wasn't written down). If you refresh his memory it may help. Just be firm, calm and cool. You will probably meet somewhere in the middle.

This is a good lesson for those of us who have not remodeled yet. Write stuff down and sign off on everything!

Thanks for the comments guys, really appreciate it.

Corgimum; write down EVERYTHING - and if anything gets changed or agreed to (like floor joists in lieu of wall coming down) put it in an email with a 'per our discussion, just confirming ...........'.
Do it even if they make it sound like a given and no big deal. Those items which are no big deal can add up to $1000 or more when final bill time comes!

Maybe I will ask the GC to stop by tomorrow as my husband will be home as well.

First, I would like to say your kitchen is beautiful. I love everything about it. Lucky you.

As for the GC, I am having a very difficult time with mine but luckily I emailed him as much as I could detailing every problem and reminding him of conversations. He is trying to say the contract does not read as I interpret it. I was very close to taking him to court, but he seemed to turn it around last night and says he will do the "humble" thing. Thank god. I have no problem with someone making a profit, and think everyone should make a profit, but if you agree to do something, then do it and don't cry that you did not charge enough.

Now, getting back to your issue, my thought is, if it is not in the contract and there is no email or confirming conversations, it will be difficult to verify. However, I would immediately write down as much as you can rememember of each conversation - dates, times, how big, how small a hole, who was there, etc.(don't exaggerate), and send him an email telling him what happened. Also, ask him for his license number and check with the state to see if any complaints have been filed for the exact same reasons.

The way my contractor worked, when "surprises" arose during the reno, he told me what the cost would be and got approval before he did the work. It seems to strange to me (and I'm a lawyer) that there was no discussion of what the charge for the extras would be until you got a bill after the fact. I think you've learned the hard way, unfortunately, that is not a good way to go. Maybe you could talk to the contractor who did your last beautiful kitchen what he would charge for those same extras and use that as a negotiating tactic.

Change orders should be in writing and signed by both parties. That's a standard business practice because if you don't document what was said, you end up with the he said/she said hard feelings down the road. WHich is where you are at.

I must say that the price he's given you for replacing the floor joists is extremely reasonable. Extremely.

And, he's due his 10% markup on any of the changes. That's how he's paid. That's fair.

The lighting needs to be referred back to the original contract. Read it to see what's included and what's not. If it's not in the original contract, then it's a change. Sounds dumb, but the original written contract is the bible for the process. If you don't get that 11th commandment in writing in that bible, then it's a change order, even if it was verbally discussed.

The $300 demo wall credit sounds fair, if the cost of demoing the wall was the only part of that wall removal that was in the original contract. It didn't include drywall repair, floor repair, moving of electrical? If those costs weren't specifically stated in the contract, then they weren't included in the wall demo and the $300 is a fair price for just removing a wall. Maybe it was worded like that originally because until you DO put a hole in the wall, you can't know what would be in that wall that would need moving and those changes would have been a change order at the time of demo.

It's all about communication. A contract is nothing more than a written document about the communication you've had with your contractor and the things that you've agreed on. Some contractors are good at the work they do and not so good at the business side of it. Sounds like you may have one of those.

But, the communication issue is a two way street. In the future, you need to be proactive in getting those changes documented as well, for your own protection! Write the date you discussed the item down and email it to him, "Per our 2/14 discussion, you agree to do XX job for YY money and this does include sub jobs ZZ and AAA. If hidden problems occur, I understand that further change orders will ensue." You'll get his attention quick if you put in writing something that he didn't intend to convey to you in your conversation.

For now, your best approach would be to call him and have a face to face conversation. Communicate with him that you need further clarification of the charges. It doesn't have to be confrontational. Just a friendly dialogue. "I'm a homeowner, not a contractor, so I'm not sure I understand your bill. Help me figure out what you're charging me for here." And if you do disagree with the charge, say so. "I was under the impression via our conversation back in the first week of December that this was included in the original payment. Why is that now a separate charge?"

Allow him to clarify things to you. And, doing so in person will allow you to clarify your own thoughts and...

Thanks again.
I went and spoke to the GC who was going to do the work but couldn't. Asked him for pricing without telling him why.

He came up with a similar cost for floor joists, but asked a variety of frightening questions about pressure treated wood, etc that I couldn't answer.

He said that the charge he would give for opening and closing the wall (no moving of electric or pipes), but demo, rebuild and finish would would be approx $500 - $600. Another GC said $450 - $650. So it's really not THAT far off.

Maybe it was me who misunderstood when I said can we use the wall portion for the floor joists. I thought it meant direct swap, and he thought it meant as a credit towards it?

I agree about the original contract. It's my fault - every single GC who looked at the extra bits and pieces that needed to be done said it was no big deal and of course they would include it. I don't think those items appeared in a single bid. it was just a variety of small jobs that we could have probably done ourselves had I known it would add on 15 hours of labor (how?????) and over $500 in that alone.

It was literally all preventative work:

Caulk one side of the shower pan as it was starting to look a little ratty.

Caulk (reseal) the bottom part (along the sill) of two windows to the basement. No leaking, just making sure it wouldn't in the future.

Attach chimney 'hat'.

Touch up ceiling around a speaker where we had a leak. I was there for that - it took 10 mins.

Not sure how that stuff can possibly total 15 hours, but what do I know?

But yep, I know I'm in the wrong - I should have made him line item every line of caulk in the contract, because he's now playing the I don't remember game and I guess I don't have a leg to stand on.

Lesson learned - our past GC have never done this so I guess I wasn't expecting it. I thought I did way better on the contract this time - our contracts in the past have been something of a joke and we were lucky to have been working with such honest people!

At least I did double check and correct the contract for the bigger items or we could be in really big trouble now instead of $1300 worth.

I think he's coming over this evening while my husband is home, and that's good as he can take the lead and play 'good cop'. If it gets tricky we'll just pay up and be done with it, but I'm hoping we might meet somewhere in the middle.