you wrote "My main concern/dilemma is why would the other two dogs suddenly become so aggressive as to do this to these two? They never bothered Xena,just the two older dogs." It sounds like these two dogs who were the aggressors (assuming I have the facts straight) have had a history of being aggressive towards the older dogs. I hve a couple of insights and some questions. Are all the dogs fixed? If not, that could have been part of your problem. MY thought regardig the part you wrote, about those two picking on the older dogs, makes me think that the dogs who were aggressive have been creating a pack between the tow of them. Dogs in large groups which dont get leash walked on a daily basis, who are left outside for long periods of time together will sort out who is top dog, and they will fight to assume the role of an alpha dog. It sounds like Chiquita, who was the oldest, decided she needed to assert her athority over Izzy, a dog who was not raised in her pack, and the youngest of the group...Chiquita was probably putting the young dog in its place. It is possible Chiquita has some physical problems - being 13 - and the younger dog was trying to test Chiquitas position of physical dominance. Cry Baby is the second oldest dog, so naturally if the younger dogs were trying to form a pack and take over to be dominant, they would go after the next in line. Xena is a younger dog, and although probably in better condition, you need to be careful about the behavior the 2 younger dogs have displayed, if they have formed a solid pack mentality, they will not stop attacking. First off, get whoever is not fixed to the vet and get them fixed immediately. Next start leash walking these dogs, everyday. They had no human supervision outside by themselves, and when there is a void or vacuum of a dominant person, they dogs in a group will sort that out for themselves, which is what the two younger dogs have been doing by "picking" or "bothering" the two older dogs. No matter how much you go out to correct their behavior, as long as they are all out there on their own without a person correcting their behavior on a regular basis, the dogs will not respect what you are trying to do to correct the problem. YOu inadvertently made a situation which was getting bad little bits at a time worse by being busy and not maintaining contact with the dogs. No matter how much your dogs "dont like to be inside" and are "outdoor dogs" they are on their own. Bringing in a a younger male dog, in a pack established is going to be troublesome unless they see the humans who are caring for them as the dominant personalities. I am sorry for your loss, it must have been a horrible situation to witness. Please get dogs fixed if they need it and start training and leash walking. I dare say unless these dogs see you as the boss in the future, they will repeat their behavior.

mazer-The two younger dogs have never displayed any aggression toward the older dogs or Xena.What I said was that "last night" they were not bothering Xena,just the two older dogs.They are all females and have all been spayed,and I don't ever intend to bring in a male.There has never been any aggression displayed in ANY of these dogs.They eat,sleep and play together.They are all leash trained and walked daily,except for the last few days because the people who walk them have been either not here or busy somewhere else.These dogs are not neglected.They come inside every day several times a day.Someone is always going into the yard and playing with them.This behavior WAS sudden and yes,it was horrible! I guess sometimes things just can't be explained.My X-DIL came today and took Xena home with her.Izzie and Susie have been separated and of course Chiquita is inside until she is well.

I am so sorry, lillipad! For sure keep them separated when not under your eye!

Just a thought - were there bad storms while you were gone? Fireworks, anything that could have agitated the younger dogs and maybe caused confusion?

Sorry for your loss. You may never get an explanation.

Sometimes if an animal gets an injury, like an open wound, the other pack animals will lick, chew and bite at it until it becomes a type of a feeding frenzy. Its instinctual pack stuff that us humans couldn't understand.

No fireworks,storms or anything out of the ordinary going on.

when dogs act out of the ordinary it is time for a very thorough vet check up ASAP. Don't be fooled into thinking this is a one time thing either, if it happens once it's going to happen again. and no offense but I didn't see you mention taking the dog to the vet that got bite up but is still alive??? What's up with that?

Cindy-I did take all three to the vet today.The two that did the damage checked out fine.They were their usual docile, sweet selves! He said about the same thing as Mazer about the dominance thing.I was just really surprised that it could be that since they have all been together for so long with no other incidents like this.The two are separated at this time,just in case! We are trying to decide what to do about them.
Chiquita is on antibiotics.None of the wounds were life threatening.She is still not walking or getting out of the carrier without help.She is drinking water but still not eating.The vet said to give her a few days and make sure she doesn't get dehydrated.He said she will eat when she gets hungry enough.The wound inside her thigh is likely the reason she isn't getting around right now.It is like an abrasion,almost like it was scraped on something rough.She doesn't seem to be in pain,even when she moves or someone picks her up.I think she will be fine with a little time.

IMO, the dog is in pain. Dogs don't whine or cry when they're hurting and you have to look for other subtle signs to know when they are. They fact your dog has no interest in getting up, nor in eating, would have me concerned.
Your dog may have serious internal injuries and could possibly bleed to death before your vet appt.

If you have an ER in you area, I suggest you make use of it.

Sorry.........we posted at the same time. Glad things turned out OK.

I'm glad to see you say you took them to the Vet, Although I find it strange you didn't mention that in your first post. As far as what the Vet tested for is another story.
Younger dogs challange older dogs all the time when they sense the older animal is sick, actually any time 1 of the pack is sick it can change the behavior of the pack...IMO some serious behavior watching is in order to see just which dog is doing what. If you don't have enough experience with dog behavior I'd look into to hiring a certified behaviorist and see what they suggest.They know how to create a situation and see just who reacts to what and why. It can give you at least a realistic view as to what is going on and some ways to deal that's safe for all the dogs.

I keep my dogs crated when I am not at home. Its more for their safety than anything else. Generally I am sure they would be fine left alone in the house 99.9% of the time. Its that 0.1% situation, where who knows, they accidentally knock over a lamp, or chew on a cord, or chase each other, or eat a knick knack...or worse as in Lillie's case...

I think you will need to keep your dogs separated and contained when you cannot supervise them and they will probably live happy and healthy lives...

Lilliepad, I am so sorry for your loss and I'm glad that Chiquita's injuries were not life threatening.

As sweet as they can be, they're still animals with animal instincts. I agree with joepyeweed about crating them separately for their safety and your peace of mind.

Cindy-This happened very late Sunday night. If you will notice my OP was written at 1:27 in the morning.THAT could be the reason I didn't mention it in my first post! We live in a small town with only 2 vets and neither of them were available at that hour. We don't have an ER for animals here. Cry Baby was already gone. I inspected Chiquita's wounds and didn't feel the need to drive over 60 miles to take her to an ER. I was up all night with her,making sure she was OK.I took her in as soon as he opened Monday morning. The vet checked Chiquita's injuries and gave the other two physical exams I presume to see if there might be something physical that caused them to act the way they did.I don't think they need a behaviorist. I really don't appreciate the insinuation that my Vet is incompetent and I do find the insinuations in both your posts offensive! Thanks so much for your "advice" anyway.
I am now convinced that this all progressed as Mazer suggested,and as I said previously my Vet also suggested that possibility. Chiquita and Cry Baby have both been showing some signs of "old age" the past few months. Chiquita doesn't get around as well as she once did and Cry Baby was always a very submissive,shy dog. Always hiding from strangers (and sometimes us) and other dogs. I think Izzie probably was displaying dominant behavior. I probably should have thought of that but it never entered my mind that something like this could happen because they have always gotten along so well. The two culprits are separated and Chiquita is inside. She was drinking water but wouldn't eat any of the regular food that she normally eats either yesterday or this morning.So I cooked some chicken breasts and cut it in small pieces and offered it to her around noon. She ate about 1/2 cup from my hand. We tried to coax her out of the carrier but she wouldn't come out. My DD came over and we took the carrier outside on the grass and she came out and walked around and went pottie. DD gave her a nice warm bath and she is now sleeping next to my chair. She has a lot of bites on her hips and a couple on her back. There is one pretty deep one on her left thigh that is pretty deep and the Vet said to watch it in case it gets infected. I think she will be fine.

I agree with cindy that this was probably due to health issues of the two older dogs. Arthritis, digestive and back problems can cause a lot of pain and if Chiquita or Cry Baby wasn't feeling well and snapped at one of the younger dogs, a fight could easily have started and the two older ones didn't stand a chance.
Allowing dogs to stay outside and on their own doesn't allow an owner to learn each dog's unique personality and the changes that occur as dogs age.
That and a battle of alpha is all it would take to cause what happened.

Your comment "Izzie and Susie have been separated and of course Chiquita is inside until she is well" concerns me because I would hope Chiquita becomes an indoor dog after all this. Do keep in mind that she's traumatized from this attack and should never be around Izzie and Susie again.

I really don't appreciate the insinuation that my Vet is incompetent and I do find the insinuations in both your posts offensive!

Clearance from the vet for health reasons would have had to have a series of different tests. I doubt if your vet did these tests as most don't because the truth is where would they start??? This is not an insult to your vet it is however reality. In fact 90% of the time when there is a pack fight in a home with multiple dogs or even 2 dogs that have always loved each other dearly a health issue such as cancer, thyroid, bone and joint problems, even a recent vaccination just to name a few or a serious behavior issue is at the bottom of it. Suggesting a behaviorist is also not an insult. I apologize for the Comment about not seeing a vet...I honestly didn't see it mentioned it in any of your posts until I asked. I have to say again though once this happens you have to understand this didn't just happen...something sparked it and until that something is pinpointed more than likely it's going to happen again. In fact my advice is to never let the dog that was hurt alone with the rest of the pack ever again.

"Clearance from the vet for health reasons would have had to have a series of different tests. I doubt if your vet did these tests as most don't because the truth is where would they start???"

Exactly! Where would he start? Both dogs are less than 2 years old and have had no health problems and no symptoms of illness,all shots are up to date,they have both been spayed,etc.He poked and prodded,felt of their stomachs,hips,legs,looked at their gums,teeth,eyes listened to their hearts.He found nothing abnormal,therefore saw no reason to do anything else in the way of tests.As I mentioned earlier,he thinks it all started as a dominance issue.

"I have to say again though once this happens you have to understand this didn't just happen...something sparked it and until that something is pinpointed more than likely it's going to happen again. In fact my advice is to never let the dog that was hurt alone with the rest of the pack ever again."
No,you don't have to say it again because I got it the first time and I think I am smart enough to figure that out by myself.Izzie and Susie will be separated forever because Susie will be going to a new home,and of course I know that Chiquita can never be alone with Izzie again! Chiquita is getting around a lot better this evening.She ate another 1/2 cup or so of chicken,then DH took her outside and she did her business and she is safely asleep in the carrier at this moment.
Thanks everyone for your concern.

You are very lucky you could take your dog to the vet and know she is going to be okay.I also have a chihuahua whose name is chiquita. I have had her for 4 years already but she is an old dog. Yesterday she came out of the house with me and one of our outside dogs which is a huskey(dalilah) bit her right on her stomach and wouldnt let her go, when she did let go of her I tried to get chiquita but dalilah picked her up again. i was screaming at dalilah to let go of chiquita but she wouldn't listen to me. when she finally let her down chiquita walked in the house and wouldn't let me hold her. I picked her up with a blanket and she has 4 wounds 1 which looks really open... I called my dad to tell him and he said that was no reason to cry for and that he couldn't do anything about it because the vet is to expensive. I am trying my best I have been washing her wounds with water and peroxide, she was bleeding a little but it stopped after a while...She hasn't eaten anything but drinks a lot of water and has only gotten up a couple of times to go lay down somewhere else she just lays down and doesn't move much i love her and dont know wat to do im really scared.

Exactly! Where would he start? Both dogs are less than 2 years old

You are missing the point.....I wasn't talking about the younger dogs, but the older dogs. Dominance issues could have been sparked by a health issue coming from the older dogs. Animals sense a decline in health of a leader, this will challenge who's up for the alpha role in the pack's "right" so to speak.All it would take is the older dog getting snippy and the younger one taking advantage of the situation. If you understood pack order this is a given. And I said what I said about the Vet because without extensive testing on all the dogs and especially the one that died you may not know what the true health issue was. SO now what you have left is a living "victim" and 2 dogs that have killed already. I'm sorry if you don't like our bluntness but you came here asking questions and you were given clear advice on how to pursue some answers. It is not personal, it's about the dogs.

I forgot to add there is one thing if you haven't done already you could do for the dogs is to see if any of them have Lyme or another tic born disease. It is not unusual at all for dogs with lyme to show abnormal aggression.

cherry,

Call your local Humane Society and explain the situation. Also call some rescue groups and see if they can help.

How old are you? If you're a minor and your parents can't pay the vet bills, then explain to them that there are groups that may be of help. Also let them know that many vets are willing to let you pay the bill over time.

I do hope you little dog is able to be checked out and recovers fully.

Cherry-I'm so sorry about you little dog. I hope you can get some help from the humane society or some other source.

Cindy-I asked one "question",actually not a question but a concern,and I got an answer. I didn't need to be told that I should keep the dogs separated or that Chiquita should not be allowed outside again,etc. I pretty much had that one figured out. I'm sorry,I guess I have been a little sensitive the last few days with everything that has happened. As for having the older dogs checked out,it's a little late for Cry Baby,but Chiquita has been checked out,as well as the younger two. I did call my vet and asked about the test for Lyme disease. He said he would do it but didn't think it was necessary because Lyme disease is relatively unheard of in this area. They have all been tested for heart worm and all are negative and on preventative medication for that. I think we have pretty much established what led to the problem and I am doing everything possible to prevent something like this from happening again.
I do have another question and would appreciate everyone's thoughts on this. As Cindy said,I have two dogs that have killed once,what should I do about them? I have always heard that once they taste blood they will attack again. Is that true? I planned to find homes for them with no other pets or children,but now I don't know if that is a good idea. The person who was going to take Susie decided they didn't need a dog so she is still here.
By the way,Chiquita is doing much better today. She is eating and moving around a little more and her wounds are healing.

lilliepad, I am sorry for your loss, but you are taking offense where none was intended.

You post enough on these forums to know that often people are going to suggest stuff that you don't need to hear or don't want to hear. People post suggestions because they think it might be helpful. You can choose to ignore that stuff, no need to be offended.

I am sorry for your loss. You have stated that you don't want to use a behaviorist, so there really isn't much you can do except euthanize them. In their current state, they are dangerous dogs. They have killed. If they get out and kill someone else's animals you will be held liable. Why are you against a behaviorist? I certainly would rather at least try to work with one instead of euthanizing them.

All the dogs were chihuahua's, right? I think placing them in separate homes should work as long as the new owner knows that '2' dogs did the attacking. I would hope each chihuahua, as an individual, would not be a problem. Just look for a home where they'll be the only small dog, or with other dogs that are larger.

bessiedawg-It's not that I am against behaviorists.I live in a small town.None anywhere near me and I can't afford to travel over 100 miles for one.Yeah,I know,if you can't "afford" the cost of caring for a pet,don't have one so don't start flaming me for that.
Yes,Annz they are Chihuahuas.Susie is about 5 lbs. and Izzie is about 10 lbs. I actually think Izzie is part Dachshund.The young man we got her from tried to tell us she was a Teacup Chihuahua. I knew she wasn't and told him he needed to educate himself a little better.LOL She has a lot of the Dachshund temperament.

I think we have pretty much established what led to the problem

I know you think you have, but I can tell you flat out you are mistaken. First of all normal dominance is rarely the reason behind such serious dog-to-dog aggression. This goes way beyond that. Even a certified behaviorist isn't going to suggest any behavior modification without a clean bill of health from the Vets which will include more than what you have had done. Not your fault jus that the health of the dog that died may have been a huge factor. Anyway a behaviorist will come and see the behavior of each dog to see if the dog dogs has poor socialization, lack of structure, weak nerves, etc. and than see how they inter- react with each other.
If you can't afford a behaviorist than please get a hold of this guy at the link supplied below ...explain all that has happened. I think you will find him to be very unbderstanding and helpful.

Here is a link that might be useful: Starefire dog training

I'm sorry for your loss. I am just stunned that a Chihuahua could kill! I have one, she's about 6 1/2 lbs and her teeth are so small I can't imagine that she could actually kill another dog. :(

Share-Thank you.The one that did the attacking was almost twice the size of the other two.It is hard to believe but I guess that just reinforces my belief that any dog can be viscous.I certainly wouldn't have thought something like this could happen with these dogs.

lilliepad, I understand you are going through a period of grief, and probably dont want any more trouble from your puppers, and you probably dont trust them right now, all understandable - you have been through it all. You might want to think about making a decsion as to the future of the remaining dogs as soon as possible. Keeping the dogs seperated for long periods of time might in fact increase their aggression.

any update, lilliepad ?

Not really.Chiquita is doing good.Her wounds are healing well and she is in the house.Not by her choice though.She still begs to go outside with the other two.LOL Still have Susie and Izzie separated and have not decided what to do about them.I would love to find good homes for them because they are both great little dogs.