750 sq. ft. We had an apt. that size once- with 3 little ones. But it was much more open feeling than that, thankfully. We have the best memories from there, but the layout of the apt. was phenomenal, too. Not claustrophobic in the least.

I love your post, palimpsest. You are so right that not every space has the luxury of adherence to the NKBA guidelines. And I do despair of some of the comments that make homeowners feel as though they will be stuck with "something less" if they don't follow those guidelines.

As for the picture in your post -- I have lived and cooked in kitchens of that size. One of my favorites was a tiny galley kitchen in a summer sublet I stayed in off Rittenhouse Square, Philadelphia. You could reach everything in one step -- or less! Now I have what would be considered luxurious space by 99% of the world, but I have to bear the shame of living with a 36" aisle between and island and sink/DW wall. Imagine! And here's the most scandalous part -- in our renovation, I am actually considering keeping the 36" aisle width on that side. It works for me.

And I don't think a 12 x 12 kitchen is tiny, either. My grandmother raised 8 kids in one about that size, and I remember thinking that she had a "huge" kitchen because it was filled with our large family every Sunday!

Thanks for the perspective, palimpsest!!

I've lived in kitchens as small. What seems wrong in this on is the fridge. I have to take some pics of my friends tiny SF house with the fridge that is 4 foot tall. They are a couple in their 60s. They shop every day because they can walk to the market. They use their fridge for cream for their coffee and any leftovers. Produce and meat are bought fresh daily.

I'm close. I shop every 3 days max. So my 36" builtin is nearly empty and we are a family of four.

If you live where you can walk to groceries, the fridge becomes way less necesary...

jgs7691, I DID keep my 36" aisle and I am quite happy with it. The other changes made the use of the kitchen so much better that they feel larger to me even thought we kept the same footprint. My options were to maintain those spaces and try to create more efficient work zones either side of the island or take out the island, lose valuable storage and work space and have a 9 foot cavern between my sink and cooktop. Nah -- 36" works fine for me as long as it isn't a fanny bumper.

Sufficient space is highly personal. We have twelve foot of desk with three computers on it, so the three of us can surf and game as a family, in good chairs. Anything less would be really cramped for me.

It really all boils down to Needs vs Wants, and elevating our Wants to a Needs level. How those luxuries easily become the very thing that your happiness hinges on.

Sometimes I realize it was a blessing to gave grown up so poor that trash picking was fun family activity to do while going for an evening walk. Now when I am financially stable with a six figure income, and have spend several years remodeling a house, installing fun things like led lights in my bathroom vanity, my past is the very thing that stops me from making my house too important to me. I strive to remember that I could lose it all and life would go on. And whether or not it was a happy life would be up to me.

Does anyone remember the old thread on here about NYC kitchens, and how some of the most serious cooks have the least equipment. Similar theme...

Not often I see a kitchen smaller than mine (7.5" x 7.5")on here. Mine is a similar look to this one but as a galley it isn't so tight. Mine needs a lot of functional improvements but it is a perfectly adequate size for baking and cooking. Current trend in condos here is even smaller kitchens (usually one run with everything on it open to the living space) so I'm grateful for the amount of space my kitchen affords me. You definitely need to think a bit outside the box with small kitchens. Great thing about GW is usually someone has already broken the same rule you are thinking of breaking and can tell you how it worked (or didn't) day to day.

Here is my first kitchen, which was about 5.5 x 7.5 with a 6'7" ceiling. Later owners made the mistake of upgrading the appliances to stainless steel without checking the depth of the fridge, so the new one sticks out in front of the sink

Look at all that counter space! Pretty good considering. :)

My problem with the NKBA guidelines isn't so much them (after all those people had the sense to call them "guidelines"), it's rule-worshipers who need to regard them as immutable no matter what good things may be sacrificed to them.

WOW.

If this thread continues in the same direction and with the same momentum, we'll have an openminded forum in no time at all.

Hth.

My mother's kitchen was about that size. Window and deeper placement of refrig in room helped tremendously. House sold for $210,000 before the Bust. This room seems really small, doesn't it?

That kitchen is way smaller than original Levittown kitchens. The problem with Levittown kitchens was that there had to be a table in the kitchen because there was no dining room. They were built without bsmts, so storage was tight and the oil burners were a huge wasted space on one wall of the kitchen (boxed in, but hulking none the less). It is very rare to see the original setup because 95% of those models have been extended somehow, often in several directions.

I have cooked in a setup like sharonite's and made it work too. When I first met my husband, that was my apt's "kitchen" and I managed to make real meals regularly. Part of me wonders if he proposed for my sparkling personality or if it was the good cooking, lol.... In our first apt together, we had a set up not much bigger than pal's pic, but it had an island where they have the second galley wall and nothing turned the corner. It was a great kitchen to cook in. The island gave me a ton of counter/storage space and the galley setup made everything convenient. My current (new) work spaces are set up galley style for most of the cooking and clean up, with another run for when I need more space and the extra storage.

I get cranky about them because...

a. although they are "guidelines," some take them as "laws";

b. what is "standard" does not always equal what is best for a particular family in a particular house; and

c. many houses don't allow for the NKBA ideal, but that doesn't mean that the kitchen won't be absolutely fabulous looking and wonderfully functional.

I tried to adhere to the NKBA guidelines and made the aisle between my stove and my island (where most of my prep work happens) 43" (the NKBA minimum is 42"). If I had it to do over again, I'd make the aisle [gasp!] 39". This would be the perfect distance for ME, not some fictional "standard" person. I like to chop, scoop, and pivot to dump something into a stockpot or pan. The extra few inches adds an awkward additional little half step into the process. Does it drive me nuts? No. But, when I stop and think about it, it does annoy me that I didn't just go with my gut and do what made sense to me.

I also have way more space on the seating side of my island than necessary. I could easily have made my island 6-10" wider, included some additional storage under the overhang, and been perfectly happy. But, no, NKBA guidelines made me overthink my plans and go with more aisle and less storage and work area.

I love my kitchen and, overall, it's extremely functional, but just about every little thing I would change about it relates to wishing I had ignored the NKBA guidelines.

As an aside, when I attended the Arch Digest Home Design Show last weekend, NKBA had a booth there. Typical GW TKO that I am, I couldn't help but to stop in to chat those reps up a bit. When I told them I was a member of the GW Kitchen forum and that NKBA kitchen planning guidelines are frequently referenced here, the first thing out of one of the reps mouth after that was -- " Oh, but you know there's no way you can ever follow all 40 of those guidelines!" I knowingly chuckled as the other NKBA reps who were sitting there, nodded enthusiastically in agreement. It was nice to see that the NKBA folk themselves weren't touting those guidelines as scripture.

I am kind of surprised they put the picture of the kitchen in that first listing. Usually they don't--often because it is impossible to get one.

Here is the other option: putting the kitchen in the basement. This house is really charming, 18th c., with lots of original details. The problem with this option is getting appliances *into* the kitchen down a set a narrow winding steps. Sometimes things have to be taken apart. Sometimes there is a large window that can come out. Sometimes there is a bulkhead in the sidewalk that can be opened up. The other issue is that its a basement, it could be dark and you may not want to spend a lot of time there. But I do find this particular kitchen very charming like the rest of the house. There is not a vast amount of space out of the frame to the right--I am sure this photo is optimized to show "space"

The funny things is when I placed my kitchen layout on GW for critiquing the NKBA guidelines were thrown out as needed for some things and dismissed for others. Some were concerned about my 4' rarely used walkway with island chairs but were unconcerned about 11' between the frig and stove.

I believe the guidelines are meant for optimum conditions which some of us have due to not living in areas where housing costs are exorbinant. Though these guidelines aren't "code" it is a reference point that will fit most anyones lifestyles. As we all know that remodeling is about tradeoffs. I often have to remind myself why I made the decision I did. The tradeoffs made one decision better then the other.

If you want to build a kitchen more to your needs, it's your money, do as you wish. You have to live with it when you're there and the consequences to that decision bringing you more or less $$$ when selling.

I'd be cranky if I went to that kitchen and it was as bad as it looks. I bet it isn't.

"Levittown"

isn't that where Bill O'Reilly lived growing up? he mentions his growing up years sometimes.

That kitchen looks huge compared to what I've had for the past 13 yrs. My new kitchen is about 10 x 12 - that is big to me. My table will fit in there. and I do like that the 'stove', sink, refridge are withing just feet of each other. I don't cook much but am thinking about doing a bit more of it (like making some homemade apricot butter) and don't want to be taking a 'hike' to get or do anything.

compact is good.

It's not so much that I think that first kitchen is "acceptable", but the idea that it is pretty much hemmed in structurally with a party wall on each side of adjacent houses. and a masonry wall to the left. The whole thing is probably masonry but *maybe* there is more space to go out back...a couple of feet.

There were actually 3 Levittowns that I know of: NY, NJ and PA.

I thought that I would post some more examples of small kitchens not to beat a dead horse but to talk about how people either make choices or problem solve. Also we can talk indirectly about location location location. The Kitchens I post belong in houses priced from $500K to a rock bottom $179K with an average around $350K. Some people will miss this because of the title, but oh well.

By comparison in a less desirable neighborhood here, this is what you will get for $500K and 350k (ish).

Under $500K

$350K, designed by Horace Trumbauer
{{gwi:1767622}}

Now, onto the kitchens:

Heres a kitchen in a house almost identical to the first one: a window Does help.

Heres a very old house where they kept the kitchen in the basement to preserve living space. Keep in mind this is probably Most of the basement excepting utilities. This was the least expensive house and under 500 sq ft.

Here is a new kitchen in one of these houses. There is probably a door to a small yard so the kitchen is tucked at one end:
{{gwi:1767626}}

This house ended up with a fridge in the Living/Dining space
{{gwi:1767627}}

This house had a larger yard so they were able to enlarge the kitchen. They acknowledged the back of the original house by keeping it raw:
{{gwi:1767628}}

This house is around 400 square feet. That door Might lead to only bathroom. So much for two doors between kitchen and bath.
{{gwi:1767629}}

This house is lucky enough to have a true English basement so it gets lots of light:
{{gwi:1767013}}

This is a typical "yard" for many of these houses: These homeowners chose to preserve the yard. This kitchen *is one wall of the LR. That is the sofa and the LR fireplace reflected in the mirror.The front door opens against the fridge. You can see that to do a full on kitchen could take up the whole living space:
{{gwi:1767630}}
{{gwi:1767631}}

This is just a pretty kitchen in a very small old house

This is a very intact 250 year old house. I am assuming the kitchen is in that narrow extension. You see the dilemma: This is a largish yard but you lose it, and light into the living spaces if you take it up with kitchen.

I had a kitchen about that size (6x9') once, and it had a stacked W&D in it too, with about 24'' of usable counter space. It was just awful.

I also get frustrated with rigid guidelines, especially since some of them take no notice of the needs of the disabled, but ignoring the guidelines can be painful too.

The third kitchen from the bottom is close to the size of the kitchen I had in my very first apartment in NYC. Only thing is, the one posted here is actually a bit bigger. Plus it's way more swanky and purdy!

Same as holligator, I have 42.5" to 43" aisle, when 39" would have been ideal. It's a straight run through the galley at both ends. No turns, no corners.

In my kitchen too, the extra few inches adds an awkward additional little half step into the process. Same as holligator, when I stop and think about it, it does annoy me. I came up against resistance when I wondered about making the aisle smaller. Two years ago I didn't see anyone advocating "less than 42 inches can be great". NKBA guidelines were no help in seeing alternatives and options, and in fact they may have helped create closedmindedness about norms.

Hth

Less than 42" can be great! There, someone has said it. I worked with 2 KDs who insisted I didn't have enough space for any kind of island. The fact the old kitchen had one didn't seem to matter. The clearance at each end of my mini is just enough to move the big appliances in and out should they need servicing/replacement. Otherwise, the narrower openings really suit the overall scale of my kitchen (and the work surface/storage beneath is sooooo useful).

Sometimes guidelines extend to other parts of the house as well. I currently have a thread over on building a home where I question the absolute necessity of having our empty guest room closet be a complete 24 inches deep. I explain that if I could make it only 22 inches deep, then I could have a bathroom linen closet on the other side of the wall.

What really surprises me is that in my post I point out that the rental house where we live has tiny closets only 19 inches deep, so by comparison my 22 inches would seem downright luxurious! Yet everyone seems to think that I must have the 24 inch deep closet. I'm building in a historical area, so when my house has to be resold, it will be compared to these 100 year old homes with limited closet space. Heck one on my street was listed for almost a million dollars and it only had one bathroom!

Maybe there are just a lot of people out there who want it all without making any compromises.

22 inches will do. I have one of each. A closet with 22" depth and a bigger closet. Maybe sometimes you just have to humor them. Lie to them. Tell them it's 24 inches to get them off your back. Or, spend a lot of effort defending a point of view and reading little jabs in subsequent posts.

I wish I had a photo of my old condo kitchen, but you couldn't fit a camera in it.

It was a galley.

On one wall: range, little weird 5" stainless steel-covered divider wall, small refrigerator. That's all.

Opposite: Sink with undersink DW (only GE makes one), bit of countertop. We're finished now.

It was like cooking in a cockpit. When I had to take something out of the oven, I often put it on the floor.

Oddly, though, it had its conveniences. Nothing was even a single step away, except when I needed something from the DR which thankfully had tons of built-in storage. Mostly, all I had to do was reach, and occasionally pivot. I often wondered if it would actually have been nice to cook in if it had just one more stretch of counter at the end, making a "U."

People who live in large suburban tract homes do know about small, urban dwellings, but they think they're just created for movies using CGI. The funniest thread here was all the nodding agreement that you simply can't have a bath off a kitchen, dear me, tut-tut, isn't done, no no. Well, people eat, and also urinate. If this startling revelation comes as a shock to you, perhaps you should lie down on your 168" Restoration Hardware sectional until you feel better.

Thanks for the reassurance David! I like your attitude. And Marcolo you always make me laugh. Even my DH got a kick out of the couch joke.

Palimpsest: I didn't mean to take this thread too far off the direction it was intended. I meant to mention that my parents once had a kitchen that was a compact U but was very efficient. The whole thing wasn't more than 4 feet down the parallel sides except for the fridge which was at the end of one of the U legs. My mother loved it because she could stand in one spot and do everything. Like Marcola's old condo, all she had to do was pivot!

I think you're all missing the point of the NKBA Guidelines...

They should NOT be ignored...just b/c you cannot meet all the Guidelines, doesn't mean they should all be thrown out. [And I'm sure the reps would have told you the same thing if they had had the whole story. They talked about not meeting all 40, not ignoring all 40!]

Good planning & design start with understanding the space and what it can support and then looking at what you want combined with what is possible. When getting down to details, begin with the "best" or "ideal" as a starting point and work from there. Don't start out by throwing all (or even most) Guidelines out the window b/c your space cannot possibly meet them all. Barring new build, it's true that most likely no one's space will be able to meet all the Guidelines...but that does not mean they're all meaningless (and again, I'm sure that's not what the NKBA reps meant.)

Instead, look at the space to see what you can do with it. What will the space "support". Then, look at what are the most important things to you... Ample and functional workspace? Then try to meet the Guidelines for work & landing space.
Decent traffic flow? Then focus initially on aisle widths and traffic patterns and reduce criss-crossing across the kitchen or dodging an open DW door as much as possible (Appliance placement & aisle width Guidelines)
Seating? Then you may have to sacrifice a wall of cabinets so you have room behind the seats (Seating & Aisle width Guidelines)

BTW...it's often not that a space cannot meet the Guidelines...it's often b/c people want to cram more into a space than can be accommodated reasonably.

The biggest "offending design element" that I've seen on this site is the "island". People insist they absolutely must have an island with (or without) seating...so they claim (consciously or subconsciously) that they cannot meet the Guidelines b/c their space is too small when it's really b/c they don't want to admit they cannot fit an island. THEN they come here and we'll get some people who tell them that "shallow overhangs and narrow aisles are OK...don't worry about it, cram that island in b/c you want it! After all, if you want it, it will be OK...regardless of the space." In reality, it's not b/c their kitchen cannot support the Guidelines...it's b/c people don't want to have to settle for something less than their "dream"...ignoring the fact that their dream would require a much bigger space than they have (or a bigger budget than they have to make it bigger or reconfigure it).

I know it's not popular on this site right now to be realistic and look at what you have, not what you wish you have (or are trying to convince yourself you have), but some of us cannot stand by and let people be told what they want to hear, not what they need to hear...which may be one of the reasons we've lost a few "regulars" lately.

Honestly? I'm glad I was designing my kitchen in 2007 when people were upfront, told us, and showed us what is really possible. If I had not had that, I would have had the kitchen I thought I wanted not the one I really needed and, in the end, wanted...and that would have been very sad. The kitchen I thought I wanted would not have been anywhere near as functional as what I have. I was one of those that thought I had to have an island...but almost without exception I was told (& shown) that it really wasn't possible given my kitchen space.

So slam me (and others) b/c we keep trying to bring people back to reality, but I think some of you, if you listen, will be glad in the end. And that's all that really matters.

Oh, and just b/c we quote the Guidelines to you, it doesn't mean we don't recommend some compromises...look at the designs we've come up with b/f passing judgment.

They should NOT be ignored...just b/c you cannot meet all the Guidelines, doesn't mean they should all be thrown out.[And I'm sure the reps would have told you the same thing if they had had the whole story. They talked about not meeting all 40, not ignoring all 40!]

Beuhl, I'm not sure if that part of your post in the parens is addressed to me or not. But, since I mentioned my very brief discussion with the NKBA reps at the Arch Digest show, I can't help but think you are addressing this to me. If so, please note that there was no "whole story" to tell the NKBA reps. I did not approach them with any complaints about attempting to adhere to their guidelines. In fact, I made no comments about the guidelines whatsoever other than they are frequently referenced here on the GW. From that single statement, one of the reps went on -- without any prompting from me -- to state that it's not possible to follow all 40 of the guidelines and that brought nods of agreement and smiles from the other reps. We then went on to discuss the mishaps I had with my reno and my experiences in working with an ID who was not especially knowledgeable about kitchen design. End of story there. End of story here. And, if I've somehow misinterpreted that part of your post, I'm sorry.

the first paragraph extremizes a point of view which then becomes an easy target to rebut. Nobody talked about the entirety of the nkba rules. In fact, nobody talked about ignoring any large percentage of them.

Variance from the norm is more like the subject in each of the posts of this thread.

I designed my kitchen in my old home, and I had never even heard of the NKBA guidelines. I also did things my KD was against. (no triangle, for example) But I actually went into the empty space and sort of acted out how we prepare meals. I thought through the real life ergonomics very thoroughly.

I used the kitchen for almost 9 years and loved it, and professionals who used it loved it too. I made only one mistake. I had garbage in two spots: under the sink, and around the corner and near the main fridge. When I was cooking, the under sink garbage, the nearest one, was too much of a pain to use (two motions - open door, pull trash out). I never used it and as a result it was a long walk to the large garbage pullout (one motion).

buehl has a great point, especially about staying focused on priorities. We do, indeed, get posts from people who regularly feed ten kids, a soccer team and a book club but don't want any prep space.

On this site, though, I think the real sticking point isn't the rules themselves, but people who live in rural areas or sprawling suburbs and think those who live in the nation's largest, most densely-populated cities are a tiny minority. Check that math, people. I have a powder room off the kitchen because my lot size isn't quite big enough to add an entire Biological Function wing, sorry. And there are a lot of people like me. In the Northeast, you don't have to design your entire home to disguise the fact that it has a toilet.

If you think you see this a lot on the KF, you should check out some of the other fora, where posters are pompously instructed that it makes no sense to dig out a basement for extra living space because it will be much cheaper to expand outward instead. In DC. Yup.

I know it's not popular on this site right now to be realistic and look at what you have, not what you wish you have (or are trying to convince yourself you have), but some of us cannot stand by and let people be told what they want to hear, not what they need to hear...which may be one of the reasons we've lost a few "regulars" lately.

This is worth its own thread. This forum ebbs and flows all the time, as new people arrive and others finish their kitchens and pack it in, so the vibe changes from time to time. Right now, there are a few irritating customs catching on, such as opening the front page and finding six new threads started by the same person. People who refuse even to try to post pictures, even after I point them to buehl's exhaustive instructions ("I'm helpless! You have to help me!")

But we're also getting a big spike in "It's byooootiful! Do what you want! It'll be great! You should have what you loooove!" even if someone posts a layout or tile selection that frankly looks like ass. I'm seeing this in layout help threads, where we are all asked to admire and approve of a toilet in the foyer or a fifteen-foot hike from the range to the nearest countertop. I always see it in marble threads, where most posters are realistic about pros and cons, but there's always somebody who insists that vinegar spills don't etch their marble. Yup, it's easy to change the laws of chemistry just by getting your BFFs to agree with you. On the Internet, as IRL, some personalities like realism. Others like to play a starring role in their own daydreams about defending Don Quixote from the mean realism bullies. It takes all kinds.

Right now, there are definitely posters who waste everyone's time because they don't really want to hear anything but affirmation. But I think most people come to an advice forum for advice. And they should hear it. They don't have to agree with it, but they should hear it.

I am not talking about people wanting what they can't have, so much.

I agree that trying to shoehorn an island is one of the biggest "offenses" people try to commit, because of their current popularity.

Did you LOOK at any of the pictures buehl? I don't think anyone with one of those kitchens is hoping for an island with seating.

Those are unfortunate real kitchens in real properties for sale and there is No adding on to the back of the house and usually No expanding into other spaces...unless you want to be like the people who have a kitchen in their living room.

This is an urban model or paradigm that is not so much seen in this forum and consequently not well understood. This is about trying to apply the "minimums" in a situation where even the "minimums" are impossible to fulfill.

I remember at least one kitchen of this size where the homeowner was essentially told "Don't bother to do anything...except move."

So its not to slam anyone for reeling someone else in. Its an illustration of situations where the only prep May be over the DW, it May only be 24" wide total, there May only be set down on one side of the range, there May be no place for the refrigerator except against the wall.

I have posted schematics for kitchens (never a full plan but with a clear description of the parameters) of about this size and got questions like "What about kids running around?" "What about multigenerational cooking?" "Can't you expand the back of the house?" "The sink isn't under a window, the fridge is against the wall" etc. etc. (Do you seriously think there are kids running around a room this small?) These are work rooms. And sometimes they are multiple cook work rooms.

So promoting the NKBA guidelines to reel someone in, to make sure someone doesnt do something really awkward or dangerous etc. is great, but there needs to be an acknowlegement that some of them may not be able to applied...even the "minimums."

Marcolo makes a lot of good points. It is an advice forum, so one should come with questions open to receiving the solicited advice. Moreover, when asking for that advice, it is considerate (and productive) to follow the advice that Buehl pulled together (with monumental effort) in order to post pictures, do prior searches, etc., so that one is asking a question that is somewhat specific and "new" (i.e., has not been answered.) We're not always perfect -- I know that I have searched, found nothing, posted and then had a helpful response pointing me to a thread that I simply did not find. However, when we're asking one another to take time out to help a fellow poster, it's the least we can do to make it easier for others to help us.

One thing I have noticed, that may have something to do with the lack of understanding of space issues, is the commentary by those who have sufficient space for the NKBA-blessed dream kitchen and seem to look down their noses when others make compromises. (Buehl is not one of these folks, but, rather, provides truly helpful feedback.)

For example, one of the responses I recall seeing lately on the OTR microwave issue (responding to a poster who had realistically weighed the pros and cons and decided to have one) was "well, you do what you have to do, but those of us with more space can live a little more graciously". While the internet is not good for conveying tone, and that comment may have been said with a smile, it came off as snide and derisive. (And, in my northeastern city, would have gotten a two-syllable response with a clarifying hand gesture.)

The point of the OP, and the push-back reflected in some of the responses, is that not everyone can (or wishes to) have the textbook "ideal". However, it is helpful to have others share and explain what the ideal is, and why. It is wise to take that advice when it's given and to account for design considerations that the uninitiated (like myself) might never have considered. After that, we're grown ups and do have to make choices and live with them. At every stage of this process, however, eliminating the "tut tut"s and derisive commentary might make the GW world a more pleasant place.

I think the guidelines are fantastic for 'what-if' thinking and anyone engaging in it, even if they then reject downsizing their requirements to meet the guidelines and instead decide to break them has, by definition, not ignored them.

Just to take the example of removing cabinets behind seating to get a larger walkway. If the homeowners go through the mental exercise of imagining, mocking up the space, or thinking about past experience with NKBA-conforming layout (that would be ideal for most other people) determine that without the cabinets they will pile equipment there anyway or move a freestanding storage center cart there, thus making it narrow after the fact anyway, then they may well decide the cabinets are more valuable to them than the wider walkway. And they have not 'ignored' the guideline. They rejected it in their specific use case. Big difference. And the rejected NKBA guideline was still helpful for planning purposes.

Message boards always have these undercurrents. People who use boards should interpret what people say charitably (since tone is difficult to discern), try to follow the manners/norms of the board, and, in the end, not take any of it too seriously. This is an almost random sampling of the population, not a group of close pals. You cannot expect Kumbaya.

But you can expect incredibly quick and often generously thoughtful replies to any bit of kitchen minutiae that may vex you, some pretty pictures, and often a few laughs.

PS Palimpsest, you aren't thinking of moving from your lovely and unique home are you? I love your kitchen.

I, too, have felt like the OTR microwave comments are derogatory. Yeah, we get it. They are not ideal. I am really glad that I won't have to have one in my new kitchen, but I do understand and appreciate their purpose. The rental where I live now has one and if it didn't, then there wouldn't be anywhere for one in the kitchen. My counters and cupboards are packed. If the microwave were to be moved then we would live like a recent HGTV househunters I saw where the couple stored their pots and pans under the bathroom sink!

On the other hand, I do appreciate all the advice that keeps me going in the right direction.

Maybe the title of the thread could have been "Why not always applicable larger, or suburban-based kitchen design orthodoxy makes me cranky", but it wouldn't fit.

Mtnredux,
Yes I am selling. I am in a condo-HOA situation and I want a house with a basement (or garage) and perhaps some outdoor space. There is a particular house that is a good fit for me right now, that has two large living rooms, a room with church windows (!) but a *tiny* kitchen and two small baths. The current owner had a driver and a person of all work so there isn't even a W/D. Its a smallish-medium house, and very quirky.

The kitchen will need to be addressed with a fine balance of making it workable but treading lightly on a 19th c. house.

On this site, though, I think the real sticking point isn't the rules themselves, but people who live in rural areas or sprawling suburbs and think those who live in the nation's largest, most densely-populated cities are a tiny minority. Check that math, people. I have a powder room off the kitchen because my lot size isn't quite big enough to add an entire Biological Function wing, sorry. And there are a lot of people like me. In the Northeast, you don't have to design your entire home to disguise the fact that it has a toilet.

I am posting solely to say, in response to the above, "high five, Marcolo!"

:-)

I don't think buehl suggested anyone with a shoebox sized kitchen is really agitating for an island. She is saying, if I read her right, that you may not want or be able to follow all the rules all the time, but they are still invaluable as an analytical tool.

Let's step back a sec.

What is the one, fundamental question that everyone who comes to the KF is asking? Whether they are sketching layouts or comparing marble to granite or choosing flooring material or wondering how to put a DW at the end of a cab run? Despite all the different issues discussed here, they all boil down to the same fundamental question:

"What consequence?"

If I do this, what consequence will it have? If my aisle is too narrow, will we be fine and only rarely collide in my situation, or will I constantly have an uncomfortably close encounter with my MIL's backside? Will I be angry when I cook, and cook less? Will detritus pile up at my back door and make me look like a cat lady? Will I drop boiling pasta water on my Maltese, or constantly scream at my children to take the lemonade off the countertop? What will happen if I buy a Shaw's sink? What consequence am I facing if I make this choice?

I find that Americans are increasingly unable to understand one fundamental, basic point about the universe. You get to choose what you do. You do not get to choose what the consequences are. If you plan for only 9" of prep space in your whole kitchen, you do not get to choose to roll out dough for a large pizza every day. If you want to cut lemons on your marble, it will not remain pristine and like new forever. It's not up to you. It's up to reality. You have no say. You just obey. So before you decide, you better find out what the consequences are, because they're automatic and you can't change them.

That's where the rules come in handy. They tell you what the consequences are. Obey the aisle rules, and you'll pretty much never bump into anybody. It won't be an issue, or something you ever even think about again.

You certainly can, and often must, choose a narrower aisle than the rules decree. But there will be consequences. The consequence can be anything from the occasional, not-a-big-deal step-aside to a pot of boiling bolognese on a ruined cocktail dress. In your kitchen, you may be OK with accepting the consequence of mild traffic jams, because it is the lesser of two evils. You are doing it so you can escape other consequences that are less desirable to you, such as never seeing your dinner guests until dessert, or having no place to put hot pans, or simply walking too far to get what you need.

Everyone is free to make their own decisions. But everyone has to accept the consequences. The rules just help us tell them, in advance, what the consequences are.

Marcolo: if it is true what you say then it seems that everyone here already agrees.

It seems like every post in this thread is saying that you have to consider the tradeoffs and compromises.

I haven't read long enough (only a few weeks! - have I missed the worst offenders? Hope so!) to see someone who has flat out refused to see that their choices involve compromises. I do see lots of "yeah, the aisle is narrow, but we already have narrower and have ten years of experience with exactly what it is like to live with having to squeeze by and I'm willing to live with that for other benefits", which shows a great deal of attention and consideration to the guideline as well as complete acceptance that their choices have those consequences.

I find that Americans are increasingly unable to understand one fundamental, basic point about the universe. You get to choose what you do. You do not get to choose what the consequences are.

I just opened a bottle of champagne to celebrate the publication on this forum of the above piece of wisdom.

Ok, I didn't actually, since I'm at work, but I want to.

I also think that Americans are maybe starting to understand (and not fully) that most problems come with a set of parameters and limitations, and the answer is Not "Just make it bigger", or "Just spend more money on it."
You get to choose what you do, but your choices are not unlimited.

THANK YOU. I have just spent the last five minutes ROFL. Seriously! I'm wiping tea spray off the monitor that spewed out when I read "will I constantly have an uncomfortably close encounter with my MIL's backside? Will I be angry when I cook, and cook less? Will detritus pile up at my back door and make me look like a cat lady" My kitchen really DOES make me edgy often and part of the compromises I am making are due to the fact that sometimes I actually walk the kitchen and turn around and walk back out. For us it's that bad even though 95% of the time I count my many blessings that I HAVE a kitchen to be irritated with not to mention food to cook in it. Now I have the knowledge about the rules and have walked through them with DH (he thinks I'm obsessed and crazy) and have laid out what we are willing to compromise on for us. Thanks for this thread.

not long from now condo dwelling will be a more mainstream thing, and big cities will soon have a million or more people in condos, in each city. Condo might mean 39" aisles and other variances from the current version of the nkba guide...

As condo dwelling becomes more common the nkba will update their guide.

Personally I dislike the distances I've seen in many of the kitchen floor plans in GW. Using nkba as a supporting argument may be less likely in the future; they are not going to make the distances any bigger.

I predict they will reduce some of the distances written in the current version, or add a remark that one may reduce in certain circumstances without harming function. E.g. I've seen a massive difference in function between a straight through galley with openings at both ends, and a couple other galley kitchens I've been in, that were laid out differently in terms of room access points and aisle straightness.

A condo lets the owner justify spending more than s/he would for a rented space. I agree with doing things right, doing them well, and knowing the consequences. The current version of nkba guides lacks the subtlety to handle most condos, in my opinion. Perhaps they need to develop a "Condo Version" which would be a face saving way to have an alternative subset which people in palimpsest's situation could apply to suit their houses.

I haven't read long enough (only a few weeks! - have I missed the worst offenders? Hope so!) to see someone who has flat out refused to see that their choices involve compromises.

Then you have skipped over all the best parts. There are plenty of egregious examples, past and present, and I'm sure more lie ahead in the future.

One clue is the word "fine." It's "fine" that I have absolutely no place to put a flaming pan when I take it off the stove other than to throw it at the dog. It's fine if I have to get on the express bus with my boiling pot of fettucine to take it to the colander. It's "fine" if I have to call Fedex to get my dishes from the dishwasher to the cupboard. It's "fine" if my island is so far away from prep and cooking that I'll die of old age before I get there, and yet it stands in the perfect location to guide all traffic directly up my buttocks while I'm frying chicken. It's "fine" if my chopping block is more dimly lit than Cher in "Burlesque."

It's all "fine."

You can spot it a mile off. It's not the art of compromise. It's the gift of denial.

On the other hand though, people have said "Well, I can't have an island, or seating at my island because I need 48" behind it and I've only got 45"" Or "I can't have seating in X position because the middle person can't get from behind the table unless someone gets up" Or " I have to reduce counterspace in my small kitchen because I have to have a 15" pantry next to the refrigerator so I can get the drawers out to wash them."

You don't Have to do any of those things, you just have to be aware that if you don't have X inches it will be tight, someone might have to get up, you will have trouble getting the drawers out. There are examples of both ends of the spectrum. "I want XYZ because its stylish and I want it even if I have to climb over it to get into the kitchen" but there is also" I switched my LR and kitchen because I need a 25 x 14 kitchen to meet all the guidelines. Now, how do I furnish my 8 x 10 LR?"

Palimpsest - you remind me of when we were starting the kitchen planning, and I was newly-minted to the NKBA guidelines and the conventional wisdom on GW. I was objecting to the counter-depth refrigerator opening into a traffic path, because -- if it were open -- someone trying to get by might have to wait, say "excuse me", etc. (This path actually meets the NKBA guidelines, this was MY own nuttiness.)

My DH looked at me like I had two heads and said, "we're NOT designing this kitchen so that the kids will never have to wait their turn or say excuse me." And he was right.

Again, this was a situation where we considered the Guidelines and ALSO thought about what would work in our situation.

Oh, and I am going to put a "post-it" on my computer that says, "don't read marcolo's posts while drinking hot beverages -- risk of spraying during sudden laughter".

"More dimly lit than Cher in Burlesque." LMAO.