If you pushed out to the back wall, I could picture your sink under the rear windows, the range perhaps where the micro is now, or by the current DW, and the fridge and a pantry by the current range and DR door. If you didn't need the tall cabs as far down as they extend now, you could extend the peninsula and make it a real eating and sitting place.

However, before getting all worked up about a larger kitchen, do you know whether your sunroom is properly integrated with your house? Basement or crawlspace, floors and ceilings at same level, etc? If not, that's a big jump up in expense.

Also, are you open to moving the DR door?

I'm on my netbook so no graphic software. But what strikes me is that your frustration stems from a poor traffic pattern.

1) Close off the door to the right of your desk. Will this expand your usable space enough to put 2 desks now?

2) Cut a new doorway - at least 3' wide, no actual door needed, where your 'tall bookcase' is. This will create a new traffic pattern where entry into the house bypasses your entire work zone in the kitchen.

3) If you can site the new doorway so that one of the 'tall cabs' can move 18" down, this will give you room to put both 18" wide cabs currently flanking your stove together, making a 3' wide landing space on the right of your stove. Get a new cab, or a butcher block cart, for the left side of your range.

4) I've never been in love with the eat-in kitchen idea. That's just me, YMMV. If your kids snack in the den and eat in the DR, however, I'd ditch the stool and stick a bookcase unit under that countertop overhang. Preferably with doors to hide any mess, but it would give some additional storage space to make up for the tall bookcase which is going to exit stage left...or right, as appropriate.

If your DH is handy, you can put new laminate on your cabs. One of our friends did this; it may or may not be worth your DH's time - depends on if the cabs are structurally sound. Buy it in sheets, cut to size, glue it on, finish the edges in some way.

Certainly new handles would be a nice update. Functionality can be vastly improved by the aftermarket organizers, such as roll-out bins. Anything you have to sit on the floor to get out, definitely needs a roll-out organizer.

The color scheme's a bit blah. A different paint color would give the room a little more personality. Think about the future - any chance you'll need to replace your appliances soon? Do you want stainless appliances or sticking with classic white?

The old-style "one light in the middle of the ceiling" never works well for task-oriented kitchens. Any chance your DH is handy enough to do some code-worthy electrical? If your wiring is up to date, replace that center fixture with good recessed lights - but make sure the opening/closing of your upper cab doors does NOT hit the can rims. Undercab lighting is good, but a more powerful center light fixture will help too.

Good luck, your kitchen is so far ahead of where my original kitchen was, I envy you just what you have now!

Marcolo: Yes, that would seem the obvious thing to do, wouldn't it? (I mean moving the sink under the side windows if we take out that wall.) I thought of it but don't know if it would be very practical; the windows start 25" from the floor so it wouldn't be simple to put a counter in front of them. (I know I am still in the dreaming stage, but I gotta draw lines somewhere and I think the first line will be at rebuilding the window wall with different windows.) The floor of the sunroom is level with the kitchen floor, but the side bit (the "aisle" for lack of a better word, the part we are talking about) is not over the basement, it's over air -- it's held up by pillars. The ceiling is a few inches lower than the kitchen ceiling. I don't know enough about construction to know if those things are red flags, but I had sort of been thinking that instead of moving counters over to the window wall, it might be easier to make a peninsula where the fridge wall is now. Or just leave it as it is and cut in a skylight if I really want natural light that badly; that would probably be simpler (yeah, I know I was the one who mentioned taking down the wall in the first place). As to moving the DR door or anything else structural -- yes, that would be possible, it would depend on the cost/benefit analysis (i.e. would it improve functionality enough to make the mess/expense worth it). We had to have the bathroom gutted last summer and there hasn't been enough time yet for renovation amnesia to have set in; that's why I am not automatically wanting to rip walls down.

jkom51: I didn't draw this into the floor plan (sorry, should have) but the fireplace on the other side of the bookcase wall is actually boxed in and extends all the way down that wall, starting about level with the bookcases on the other side and it is continuous with the linen closet that I did draw in. So cutting an opening in that wall would be a BIG deal and would involve taking out the FP entirely. We did discuss it briefly at one point but pretty much decided that we didn't have the stomach for that extensive a remodel. That also means that we can't completely close off the doorway next to the desk (because it's access to the bathroom and the kids' BRs)... but we could always rehang a door in the existing frame to block their circular running path. I agree with you about not necessarily planning to eat at the peninsula, since that's not been our inclination so far. That's a small child's desk we have under the overhang (it's there for lack of a better place to put it). I was actually thinking we might eliminate that peninsula altogether since it's mostly a junk catcher now and I like the openness between the kitchen and desk area. Not sure about that though. New lighting is definitely in the plan, even if it's only a light over the sink. If we end up with new cabs I'll probably want to wire for undercab lighting of some sort. And I agree about the unexciting colors and also that we have a pretty good kitchen already. [grin]

Thanks to both of you for your input!

In that case, is it possible to move or eliminate the linen closet and make that the new doorway, going past the desk into the den?

An intriguing idea (the linen closet), but I don't think it'd work. I hate to keep shooting down your ideas, but there is really no other place to keep the stuff we have in there; the bathroom it serves is very small. Plus it would involve relocating an A/C vent, so I think it would be easier just to put in a new electrical outlet near some flat surface for DH's computer... maybe at the end of the peninsula, if we keep it.

I keep trying to rearrange things in the layout, but my best efforts involve us having to choose between having a range or a refrigerator. A kitchen designer I'm not. Marcolo, do you think it would help to relocate the DR doorway? I tried that a couple of different ways but can't manage to keep convenient path between the sink and the DR and still have landing space on either side of whichever appliance winds up on that wall. And I figured out why we never eat at the peninsula. We don't allow the kids to take food out of the kitchen and DR, and the flooring change makes the back side of the peninsula feel like part of the den. Which it is. So besides the piles of books in the way there is also a psychological barrier. Oh well, they can't manage bar stools easily anyway.

Have you considered moving the kitchen into the DR space and using the former bedroom/current desk area as the DR?

I'd close up the door to the sunroom, and punch a new one where that window is to the sunroom. If they're the sameish width, you could reuse what you have and just swap them. The existing headers could work for you.

Something like this.

Pros: way more prep space where you need it - between sink & stove, all food storage together pantry & frig in same area, wider desk area can fit 2 laptops + paper storage solutions, (I'd incorporate a shredder in one of the base cabs of the desk area to cut down on paper clutter,) don't have to travel around DR table to get to drop off zone, does not take down former exterior wall, reuses some existing cabinetry, range can vent directly outside.

Cons: not a lot of dish storage by DW - only 1 cab above small cab to the right, would need to cross over to the other side of the sink to put some things away, still takes down part of a loadbearing wall - need a beam.

laxsupermom -- That is a creative solution! DH had mentioned maybe moving the door to the sink window location at some time in the past. The only thing about yours is that I am not so sure I want visitors to be greeted by sink clutter.

What do you all think of this option? Pros -- leaves walls alone (we are on a budget after all), no corner cabs, fridge and sink move only short distances. Cons -- we'd have to run new plumbing for prep sink and cut a new hole in the roof for the vent, still have traffic through kitchen, creates a weirdly shaped sunroom, doesn't address DH's computer but we can probably work that out elsewhere. The sunroom door doesn't get much traffic, that's one good thing. Also there is nowhere for people to sit, but then there isn't in the current kitchen either.

The reason you end up prepping in that small bit of counter is b/c that's your sole source of water. Prep Zones, ideally, should have a water source and be near the Cooking Zone. Neither of your layouts (original or new) provide this.

Traffic...your problem is the door locations and if you keep the same doorways & room locations, you probably won't solve the traffic issue. You need to do something to redirect the traffic. In this case, opening up a doorway b/w the LR & Kitchen will be a shorter path to the Den and should help redirect the traffic away from the kitchen.

I like the idea of taking down part of the Sunroom wall to open up the kitchen and bring in more light...I'm assuming it's a totally enclosed, climate-controlled room.

Something like this (I had to do it in two pics b/c I couldn't fit it all in one...so here are parts 1 & 2)

With this setup, you can have someone cleaning up while someone else is prepping and/or cooking. You could actually have 3 or 4 people working in the kitchen if needed...great for teaching the kids how to cook and bake! :-)

Oops! I forgot to label the Message/Command Center...it's the 24" cabinet next to the 2-chair desk. It can hold your keys, cell phone/camera/iPod charger, landline phone, answering machine, calendar, desk supplies, etc. as well as directories/phone books.

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Buehl, thank you so much! I like your ideas for the sunroom area (yes, it has heat/A/C etc). I don't think that cutting the second doorway is going to be possible, though. You (and others) are working without complete information, unfortunately, because I didn't fully draw in the fireplace. Here is how the other side of that wall looks. It would be theoretically possible to remove the fireplace, but I don't really want to 'cause I like it (incidentally, those black tiles also have lead). The fireplace bump-out starts about even with the bookcase on the other side, maybe a little into the tall cabinet area, so the only place to cut a doorway would be where the tall cabinets are now. I have tried but can't make that layout work well, not without a pretty major gut job (at which point it would be easier just to move to a different house...).

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I took our floor plan to one of the big boxes yesterday, and the KD there was unimpressed with my idea of moving the sunroom door. haha. He proposed moving the fridge and shifting the range down a little -- similar to your plan, Buehl, but in a more limited way (perhaps because when he asked my budget, I told him DH said that $100 sounded about right. Har har har.) He suggested something like this, and mentioned that we might also install a door to the DR to help limit traffic while I'm cooking. It is actually easy to get to the den through the door at the far end of the LR, just nobody seems to go that way unless they are heading straight to the BRs.

We would indeed have more room for kitchen stuff on the range wall if we took out the bookcase as you have in your plan, Buehl. The problem is that I have been trying to figure out where to put MORE bookcases, because we are overflowing with books. We need a library. (My parents have a house even smaller than ours but recently added a little room with a wall of bookshelves. Must be genetic.)

We will know more about our real budget after a structural engineer comes out to have a look at our floor supports (there are some dips). Old houses are such fun, eh?

More ideas. I closed the window where the peninsula used to be to add uppers if you need them.

You can add plugs to the base of the banquet for DH and then he just moves when it's time to eat.

The plumbing for the prep sink should be a piece of cake on that exterior wall. Depending on your codes, you may even be able to water your garden with that water.

Thanks, houseful! Look at all that book storage, that's lovely. I thought about closing off the kitchen-sunroom entrance as you have done, but there are obstacles to cutting a door to it from the den (furniture on both sides). It might be possible with some creative rearrangement. We will keep it under consideration.

What do you all think of the idea of moving just the fridge and opening up a little more counterspace next to the range, as the big box KD suggested? It would be cost-effective compared to moving doors etc. I am worried that I still wouldn't have enough prep space between the sink and fridge, though (unless we did put a second sink on the range wall).

Well, how about a combination of something you posted earlier and leaving the range in place.

In Houseful's layout, I'd eliminate the desk next to the range, move the range down, and put in a prep sink to the "left" of it. Everything is too spread out/far apart to create a good workflow and a good Prep Zone and Cooking Zone (in relation to each other).

(1) You need a water source in the Prep Zone
(2) The Prep Zone needs to be near the Cooking Zone/range (i.e., next to each other or across an aisle from each other with no more than a 42" to 48" wide aisle and with little or no traffic b/w them)
(3) The refrigerator should be near the Prep Zone and, preferably, near the Cooking Zone.

I also would not close off the door b/w the DR and Kitchen...you'll be hating yourself when you find yourself traipsing all the way down to the bottom of the kitchen and then hiking back up through the LR.

++++++++++++++++++

People don't use the current LR doorway b/c it's a lot farther and more convoluted to take that path.

I may be missing something, but the door I see to the left of the FP in the picture doesn't seem to be in the layout. (It appears to be on the same wall a the same depth as the FP.)

What about putting in a doorway on the other side of the FP, lower "down"...maybe opening up the corner where I see at least 3 doors/doorways...just open it up into one big opening. It'll still be farther than using the DR doorway, but it might not be as convoluted a route as it now. With it wide open and a bigger opening than the DR doorway, people may naturally gravitate to it. To help, I would put in a door in the doorway b/w the DR & Kitchen and keep it closed when you're not using the DR. Again, that should discourage people from using it, especially if they can see a nice big opening off the LR leading in the direction they want to go.

Is the "Linen Closet" in your current LR?

It would be really helpful if you drew the FP in so we could see where it starts/stops. We're guessing right now!

Is the first layout the one from the KD? If so, it still has the issues I outlined above.

I'm not trying to get you to spend more money, but if you're going to be spending quite a bit of money on new cabinets, etc., then get a layout that really works! I don't think any layout that has such great distances b/w the major zones and appliances is a truly functional layout. IMHO, I'd rather not spend the money at all than spend it on something that isn't going to improve the functionality of a dysfunctional layout that much, if at all.

Sorry to be blunt, but that's my opinion...take it or leave it. In the end, this is your kitchen and your money, so it's up to you what you do.

OK, here is a more accurate floorplan. I measured the other rooms as well as the kitchen this time -- caveat being that because our walls are six inches thick, this might not be 100% accurate everywhere (I know the BR closets aren't that deep in real life, for example). The kitchen and den and FP measurements are right, though. A couple other notes -- first, I have marked a yellow line across the kitchen where the hardwood ends. (The laminate on top is on a diagonal line to meet the corner of the tall cabinets.) The line is to remind us that there is likely to still be a slight change in floor elevation there even if we put in a new kitchen floor, if we aren't able to remove the old vinyl (asbestos or whatever). The desk and file cabinet are both antiques but don't have to stay (though the file cab is QS oak, so I like it). The bookcase is bolted to the wall but not built in, so it could be shifted down. I've marked the two a/c floor vents in the kitchen and desk area; they could move but of course that would add to the scope.

We could just replace countertops and faucet and call it good. That's all that is technically in need of repair and it's how DH votes... I just don't want go to even that little bit of trouble, if we'd be better off changing the layout. (Just as you said, Buehl. We are old enough now that I don't want to do a "stopgap" and come back to it later... I want to either live with the layout we've got, or do it right once and be done.) Budget is definitely a consideration, though.

One last note before I go outside with the kids. I was considering Ikea cabinets because that's what is likely to be in our price range, and it occurred to me that I would be replacing frameless particleboard cabs that have European hinges with other frameless particleboard cabs that have European hinges. That made me smile. If I could find a way to reuse the cabs we have, I just might do it. (Did I mention that I am frugal?) Our hinges say "Made in W Germany." Does that make them of historical interest? haha. Too bad yellowing melamine isn't of historical interest.

This is the current layout.

This new drawing helps a lot! Now I understand the pictures and can relate them back to the floorplan!

OK...how about this?

It leaves the 2 A/C vents free, provides room for the filing cabinet, opens up the Sunroom to the Kitchen more for both light and traffic, gives you a nice size reach-in/step-in pantry, and gives you plenty of workspace & storage where it's the most useful.

The Prep & Cooking Zones are nicely separated from the Cleanup Zone.

There's seating for 3 at the peninsula.

(ignore that errant 72" label in the middle of the floor!)

The 12" cabinet b/w the sink and cooktop could be for cutting board storage or for some tray storage.

The 9" cabinet b/w the tall oven cabinet and the DW could be for cleaning supplies.

There's plenty of dish storage around the DW & cleanup sink.

You may have to bite the bullet and fix the floor heights! I think this will be an issue no matter what layout you finalize on!

Here is a link that might be useful: IkeaFans (For how to ''hack'' Ikea cabinets!)

Oh! I meant to suggest eliminating the Linen closet and opening up the wall to the Kitchen there...it will encourage people to use that doorway instead of the DR doorway. (I still think putting in a door in the DR doorway and keeping it closed will help, too! Maybe even lock it from the Kitchen side for awhile until family, at least, is used to go through the LR.)

Now that is thinking outside the box... I never thought of putting the peninsula on the other side. We'd have to keep an office area instead of the pantry though (we need a desk, just not necessarily the antique one). And the large bookcase (or equivalent thereof) needs to be somewhere too. I wonder if there is room for the desk out by the sunroom windows? Hmm... the chair might get in the way of the DR entrance... will have to give it some thought. The current location is central enough for watching over the kids and also for monitoring them if we let them on the computer. Having two sinks does make for a nice layout, though. We can keep something like this in mind as the "major rearrangement" option.

Houseful, I never responded to your last plan. Actually I kind of like it because it has no corners. (I got pinned several times at suppertime again tonight. Small people at the backs of my knees.) And if we keep the doorway to the DR, there would still be easy access to sink and fridge from the table, the way you have it.

The first one I posted would work as well...just don't put in the doorway that's shown b/w the FP & Linen Closet.

Would the tall bookcase be able to be moved to the Den or Sunroom?

Back to look... ooh, yes it would work, you're right. I mocked up a layout last night using your peninsula-on-range-wall (with prep sink) idea but with the bookcase still in place, and I had been wondering if that would look weird. (I found the Google sketchup program on Ikeafans and will work my way through that to get a 3D view.) But you're right, a prep sink could also be finagled without the peninsula.

The bookcase could be moved if we didn't have windows and all that furniture already... I will look around and see.

Re. the KD discussion on another thread -- both of the ones I talked to at the big-boxes were pretty clearly there to sell me sets of new cabinets (understandable), and both of them strongly encouraged me to install an OTR microwave even though I told them I am quite happy with my current vent hood and don't want the microwave up that high. So I am especially glad to have this forum.

sadder but wiser here...
We had an awkward flow plan but decided we just couldn't attack everything. It was 4 months into the project when we admitted that we needed to move a doorway, one in approx the same stupid place that yours is to dining room. If we had accepted the inevitable sooner, we would have had a better process.

Really consider moving door to sunroom out of kitchen and moving dining room doorway down to the bookcase area, to right of fireplace. You will always wish you had done it. Deadend the kitchen work zone so there's no traffic walking through.

If necessary put aside money for some of your other "wants" in order to deal with the flowplan. Walking straight from front door into the kitchen and then to the sunroom without entering the work zone is going to change your use of all these spaces for the better. You can serve foods in dining room without crossing paths with the cook. You can go to laundry and back of house without zigging through kitchen.

Don't plan for a place for all your existing furniture. Plan for efficient living and then salvage the furniture that fits and give yourself permission to replace the pieces that don't. (I remember a frustrated real estate person once saying that young families were missing out on some great houses because they wanted to keep their king sized bed that would not fit a cozy house in high status neighborhood.)

FWIW, I think houseful's proposed layout here (Posted by houseful (My Page) on Sun, Apr 10, 11 at 10:09) is the most functional re-do of your space from a traffic flow standpoint. It bugs me the way the living room forcibly routes traffic either straight through the kitchen work traingle, or into the private quarters area. I also like buehl's idea of reversing the peninsula and eliminating the linen cabinet.

Florantha's comments above are right on the money. Fix the traffic flow first and design the kitchen around that. My $0.02.

Sun, Apr 10, 11 at 10:09 layout

Expect...there's no access to the Sunroom! Perhaps if there's a way to access the Sunroom via the Den, but that's going to cause a lot of running around to get to it.

One note...traffic issues and layout go hand in hand...so they cannot be separated out. What you can do, and I recommend doing, is to come up with a "final goal" and then work toward it incrementally as money is available to do so. What you don't want to do is make decisions now w/o the final goal in mind and planned out that will later restrict you unduly as to what can/cannot be done.

**groan**

That should be "Except" not "Expect"!!!

In its defense, the house had a more sensible traffic pattern when it was built... there was no sunroom, no den, and the desk area was a bedroom blocked off by a wall; so the LR door really did lead only to private areas. We could always put the wall back in. [joking] One nearby house with the same plan has the fridge on the sink wall, the range where our fridge is, the bedroom wall still intact (a doorway is there of course and they use that room as their DR), and the exterior kitchen door in the same place as our sunroom door. In that house, traffic still goes through the kitchen, but since all the appliances are in an L, the work triangle isn't bisected. Of course they want to expand their kitchen someday...

I thought about taking everything off the range wall, arranging our appliances in an L, and putting in an island for prep work, which would create a corridor between the island and the wall. The aisles would be mighty tight and the island would be narrow, though. We would probably have to take down the kitchen/DR wall to make that work. I will also contemplate flipping the office area and DR. Honestly though, this might be a case where we really do need to call in a good designer (not necessarily a cabinet company's KD). And Florantha, thanks for the words of warning.

Why isn't there a door to the sunroom from the den? I think the only way you're going to get a sensible traffic pattern is either to put in such a door (which will no doubt require some reshuffling of the den furniture layout) or move the kitchen over, either as Laxsupermom suggested or just by flipping the DR and kitchen. Then people will walk through the DR to get everywhere, which will be a lot less annoying than having them walk through the kitchen.

I didn't even notice there was no door to the sunroom!! Yes, you should put a door in from the den. I'd find a new home for the washer and dryer.

You will never be satisfied unless you move the dining room doorway and the sunroom door. Sorry, but it's true - I have similar AWFUL doors / doorways in corners - they SUCK!

Really, the solution is simple: close up the dining room and sunroom doors to create a solid wall for cabinets in that corner. Put in a 4 ft wide doorway next to your fireplace (where those tall cabs are now) - this is an EASY build! I did it all by myself to fix an old doorway - anything shorter than 6 ft is an easy DIY header - either use 2x6's with blocking above or 2x10's or 2x12's without blocking - 4 ft. is a short run.

Then, put the door to the sunroom next to your laundry closet - enter from the DEN, NOT the kitchen! You can put a pass-thru over the sink if you want to, but WHY should you have to go through the kitchen to get to the sunroom? SO ANNOYING!

Seriously, HAVING to walk ALL THE WAY through either the living room or dining room to get from the front door to the kitchen just DOES NOT WORK! If the doorway is next to the fireplace it is a straight run from the front door, it is still accessible to bring food into the dining room from the kitchen, AND you can even make the current mini-peninsula you have 2 feet longer so that your husband can comfortably sit there with his laptop.

You can keep the sink and dishwasher in the same location (less cost for new plumbing). The new 4 ft. doorway will end approximately where your range currently meets the cabinets that will be gone, so shift the range 2 feet in towards the corner and put a 2 ft. cabinet next to the new doorway. Then you can use the existing hole in your roof for the vent by simply getting a new flexible duct and angling it from the new hood position through the attic to the roof at an angle.

Framing costs - approx. $200 to frame out the new 4 ft. doorway, and a new 3 ft. door next to the laundry into the sunroom, add a few new studs to fill in the old dining room and sunroom doors in the kitchen for drywall. Use the old sunroom door in the new frame and you save more money. Cost of trim and other finishes is totally up to you. Seriously, as far as construction costs go, you can VASTLY improve the flow of your ENTIRE HOUSE by moving these two doorways for less than $500 (and that would be with really nice wood trim).

I'd put a new window on the back wall of the now U-shaped kitchen, simply because you will get great light from all the south-facing windows in the sunroom. Again, a cheap and easy frame job. You can use stock off-the-shelf Anderson windows from Home Depot to save money.

Your back wall is 128" wide so I'd run a blind corner cab (42" gives good play) opening along the range wall, then put the fridge on the back wall next to it with with a 3" filler space between them and a 27" corner upper cab and 27" corner appliance garage beneath it. This allows you to open the blind cabinet door and the fridge door without interference, and you can use that counter space when you pull things from the fridge. You can run a matching panel from floor to ceiling along the fridge with a deep cabinet above the fridge if you want. This means that your fridge will end about 63" (24"+3"+36") off the range wall. Your window can start about 6" from the fridge - this allows space for trim. You can fit a 30" wide window with trim starting 30" off the sink wall and install a 24" or 27" corner upper there as well (no appliance garage here - leave counterspace clear for prep). You can even install a small prep sink under this window as well (but that will add cost due to new plumbing). Get an over-the-range microwave / hood combo to save counter space.

The sink wall will stay basically the same, and the range wall would go something like this: 4 ft. doorway to living room, 24" cabinet, 30" range, 18" or 21" cabinet (depending on size of trim around doorway), 45" space for 42" blind cabinet. Now you have plenty of counter space on each side of your range and next to your fridge.

The new peninsula jetting out from the sink wall can be 5-6 ft. long and still allow 5 ft. walking space between it and the doorway (you save space by putting the doorway across from the peninsula instead of 24" deep cabs as exist now). At that length it might actually see more use than the small one you have now. Also, I'd actually change the height / counter material of the peninsula by extending the cabinets along the sink wall 12" into where the peninsula now is, then use 39" or 42" high wall cabs (12" deep) facing into your office area as the peninsula base and top it with 24" deep butcher block. That gives the cook 12" extra prep space on the D/W side of the sink (and avoids another corner cab), and allows people to dump their crap on the peninsula without it interfering with the cook. If you use two 24" wide wall cabinets as the base you can have 3 4" wide support pillars with brackets (one each end, one in center) to support the 10" counter overhang (butcher block should have a 2" lip on kitchen side of cabinets) and then curve the end that jets into the kitchen = 5 ft. base, 5-1/2 - 6 ft. counter.

This is the cheapest and easiest way to go - you get a LOT more prep space in the kitchen and you don't lose any of your office space. It looks like you just have a table sitting in the space next to the laundry closet now, so it only makes sense to turn that into the sunroom entrance.

Oh, I didn't notice that you do not like over-the-range microwaves. Fine: By doing like I said with the peninsula you have an additional 12" counterspace on the d/w side of the sink - put the microwave there - on the sink wall butting up against the raised-up peninsula - that way when people come in just to use the MW they do not have to bother you if you are at the sink / prepping etc. Having it in that back corner is annoying and a major waste of prep space. The alternative is to put it under the counter in the new 24" wide cab between the range and 4 ft. wide doorway.

Bookshelves - yes, you will lose that large bookcase, BUT (and I TOTALLY get your need for lots of bookshelves - me too!) you can store lots of books underneath the peninsula - either behind doors or open shelves - AND you can mount floating shelves above your desk area - NEVER IGNORE VERTICAL SPACE!!!

Another idea. You can put narrow buffet counter or more shelves where the red line is.

Now that I look at it with the doorway closed off, the 4 feet of space (behind range) in the sunroom looks awkward. Could you have a new purpose for that space now? Reading nook (more like reading aisle)?

Ideagirl, natschultz, and houseful -- thank you all! If you think our floor plan is a little odd, that's pretty much what we've been saying for years. [grin] The sunroom and den were added at different times by different homeowners and neither room started out as interior space, so there was never a master plan for integrating them with the rest of the house. That 4-ft-wide leg of sunroom was put there to connect it to the back (kitchen) door, in the days when it was a porch built atop a shed addition tacked onto the the basement below. (All of it is well connected, recently reframed/resided, and structurally sound.) The floor plan works for us for the most part, even with its quirks -- except for some things about the kitchen, as noted.

Thank you for the new layout ideas! They are percolating in my head along with the others. I think I have reached kitchen-saturation (to the point of daydreaming about moving, ha) so I am going to try to just let things simmer subconsciously for a few days. We are having our floor supports evaluated later this week, and that verdict will most likely affect the budget and time frame for the kitchen.

On an almost-unrelated note, I checked out a copy of Sarah Susanka's Not So Big Remodeling from the library a couple of days ago, and I see that she used Ikea cabs and *shock horror* laminate countertops in her own kitchen (with wood edge banding, no less). And very pretty it is, too. I want to wave it in the face of the next person who tells me we need granite and custom cabs.

Could that four foot part of the sunroom just be integrated into the kitchen?

Could that four foot part of the sunroom just be integrated into the kitchen?

It theoretically could, palimpsest, I'd just have to figure out what to put over there since the windows are 25" from the floor.

Quick update and a new question for you all. We have had the structural engineer out and our house is in better shape than I feared, so nothing too major will need to be done underneath. Also, we have had our chat about kitchen budget, and for our own financial peace of mind we are going to keep it as low as we can (we are, shall we say, conservative with our spending) -- so I am going to try to avoid messing with the load-bearing and exterior walls (which all of the kitchen walls are) as much as possible.

So. I like Buehl's idea of having a prep sink diagonally across the room from the main sink, and that might be the best way to use our space. But I also thought of how I like the efficiency of a galley kitchen, where I don't have to walk far to do anything, so would you give an opinion of this idea? You don't have to pay attention to the measurements on the left side; I was measuring the widths of our existing lowers and the "window" opening to the den to see where a cooktop would land respective to that opening. With this idea we would have to block up at least part of that opening (it provides a great sight line to the den so we like having it... one of the things I will be doing soon will be to hang a blanket over it so we can see how it would really be to have it blocked). Is this idea crazy? It's OK, you can tell me, I know about lots of things but design is not one of them. And I am not rejecting all your ideas, just continuing my thought process. I re-measured and got 10' 10.6" room width, so with two 26" counters plus two 36" aisles that would leave about 6" available for pantry storage on what used to be the range wall -- which (theoretically) could be expanded into a few 8-10" units between studs... yes? Or we could leave that wall bare if there's room for pantry supplies in the island. This arrangement does nothing for our need for a 2-seater office area, but I presume we could deal with that separately. Anyway, just a thought. One thing I am not good at is visualizing how this would look in real life. (I did it on the Ikea kitchen planner and it seems cramped, but then pictures of other people's kitchens with 36" aisles look great to me. So I can't tell.) If it would be smarter to do it Buehl's or another way (leaving range where it is), I want to know that too... I am going to be frugal with all this but I am willing to spend some money on improving functionality. But most likely not to tear out the exterior wall behind the fridge and maybe not to move the door on the load-bearing wall either.

{{gwi:1816656}}

In theory, this looks like it should solve your problem of getting traffic out of your kitchen workspace. But, It doesn't even seem like you have a full 36" on each side of the island. Did you take countertop overhang into account? While the cabinets are 24" deep, the counters are typically 25.5" deep, on your island, you would have that extra 1.5" on each side, making that counter 27" wide. I know you are really struggling. While some people manage with bare minimum aisles, I would be hesitant for you to do so, especially with children in the house. Trust me, it is impossible to keep them out of those aisles. Mine are 8 and 10 and I plan on putting 48" aisles in my kitchen because it is impossible to keep them out and they just keep needing more room! ;)

I DO think that closing up the passthrough between the kitchen and den is an economical and relatively easy way to improve the function of your kitchen. This would allow you to just simply move the range there and create the classic kitchen assembly line of fridge to sink to range, and all the counter space would be useful. On the wall that backs the fireplace you could put anything. I would probably still make it pantry, but without the island you could easily make it 12" deep or more. You could even increase your book storage. If you really want something in the middle for extra prep space or a landing spot for getting things out of the pantry, consider a kitchen cart.

Thanks, controlfreakecs, I'm afraid you might be right about the aisle width. Mainly my thinking with the island was to have a convenient prep area other than that sink-fridge corner and so there would be more space to set things from the range. I doubt I'd carry stuff over to a prep counter on the far side of the kitchen, if everything else was on the sink wall. I just tested it out with the dog crate and it does feel too close to have it 36 in. from counter edge (our current overhang is only 0.5" from the fronts or 1.25" from cab boxes -- oh dear, I am going to have to decide on counter overhangs later, aren't I?). 39-40" from the counter feels OK but you are probably right about the kids. Anyway, using the dog crate as a guide and measuring yet again, I'd have 42" between a 27"-wide island counter and the dining room wall if the island was set 39" from the sink counter. So for comfort, if I were to have an island I'd probably need to set it more in the middle (say 40.5" from both sink counter and DR wall) with nothing on the DR wall. Which might very well look ridiculous (and as DH points out, would lose me a lot of wall cab storage -- though as I can't reach the top shelves anyway, maybe that wouldn't be a big loss).

--sigh-- You all are so nice to help! I will get this worked out one way or another. What about: no island, range on main sink wall, fridge and prep sink on DR wall? Perhaps that would be functionally the same as leaving the fridge and range where they are and adding a prep sink near the range (as suggested way above). (p.s. the sink near the fridge would be for making the kids' lunchboxes or coffee or snacks -- the no-cook stuff -- without getting in the way of meal prep.)