Software
Houzz Logo Print
gena_hooper

Lead paint, funky countertop, vintage house worries

17 years ago

We just moved into our 1935 Colonial after a cross-country move. I'd posted earlier about remodel ideas and planned to follow folks' suggestion to live in the kitchen for awhile. Unfortunately, as I was unpacking in the kitchen, I noticed that the paint inside the cabinets/drawers is peeling and flaking. I'm very concerned about lead paint because we have three young children. I know there are home kits for testing lead, but I'd heard concerns about the reliability. The kitchen also doesn't function well with drawers running into each other at the blind corner. The countertop is an odd, dilapidated material with what almost seems like cardboard inset into rims of rusted metal and more metal strips where the counter joins the wall.

I posted some photos in my blog:

http://bluebonnetinbeantown.blogspot.com/

So...what is the risk of lead paint? What is this bizarre counter? I hesitate to dive into an involved kitchen remodel. For the past six months, we've been working intensely to prepare/stage/sell our old home, research new towns, buy a home, and move. I'd love to take some time to get to know this area, relax a bit, and enjoy my kids. But then again, I already absolutely hate this kitchen! If there were actually shelves in the base cabinets and if the drawers worked and if the paint wasn't actually dangerous, the storage space would be sufficient. I don't know about how the space functions because we haven't really used the kitchen yet.

Sorry if this post meanders. I guess I'm thinking out loud and wondering what you would do in this position. I'm sort of feeling stuck at the moment. Well...back to unpacking boxes. Looking forward to your thoughts.

Comments (19)

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Clean and coat the drawers with shelf paper for now. No need to poison anyone! Stuff like that crazy pantry full of pegboard? I guess someone had a heck of a broom collection once. The counter is probably trashed laminate.

    Maybe you can get by with a few temporary cabinets. (I got a 52" long free standing base cabinet from Ikea as a temporary solution and it's been very useful. If I ever get my remodel done, I can put it in the garage. It's too nice for that, but I don't have a basement!)

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    If your really concerned about the lead paint you could contact your local health department/EPA chapter and they should be able to give you more information and testing.
    Lead paint usually peels in an alligator skin pattern and is most commonly found on outdoor and indoor trim and doors in older homes.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Could also be an old linoleum countertop, which often had a metal edge.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Old installs of formica did metal edging.

    I've seen the inserts of either glass - for a cutting area - or as a counter repair.

    Get you paint tested. At the big box stores they sell kits with mail-away sections for lead - or at least they do here in the lead paint capital of the world.

    Lead paint is sweet - literally. In something like an old kitchen cabinet, I'd expect it to be on every surface. I think I'm quoting correctly - lead paint was very popular up to the 1950's and continued in use until the mid 1970's.

    Very small amounts of lead can poison a child. If your children are small, please consider testing as soon as possible. Something like a drawer can grind it into dust which is dangerous. Repainting to encapsulate isn't a great idea because of the lead dust created through scraping and sanding.

    If they are painted with lead, I would replace them sooner rather than later - even if I had to live with temporaries.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    I agree with others here if they are lead get rid of them or line them with a thin plywood to keep the paint away from the children. BTW lead paint isn't great for adults and pregnant women can ingest lead dust and pass it on to their baby. This happened to a family member of mine. My nephew was born with lead in his blood.

    This is not to scare you but I have a lot of experience with lead and have seen what it can do to children and adults (I work in a medical school in an urban area).

    I would recommend that you hire someone to come in test your entire house (especially if the wood molding is painted -- that paint was almost always leaded). The testing companies (make sure they are EPA certified) are usually not terribly expensive and they can tell you exactly the places where you have lead and how to fix the problem. It is way better than guessing. In my previous house we had this done and found out that we were tracking lead up from the basement floor onto our wood floors (just where babies crawl). A coat of a good epoxy paint fixed that.

    Also if you think the exterior of your house has lead paint do not grow any food along the sides of your house for at least three feet. The testers sometimes test the soil sometimes not. Usually extension services provide soil lead testing relatively inexpensively.

    If you want to know more write me through my email.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    I recently had the paint on the exterior of our home tested. Each test was $25 and we did three on three different areas of the house. They would also test soil samples upon request.

    Try your state health department or as other suggested, the EPA. They'll be able to point you to a testing agency so you can determine what to do next.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    First off, don't freak out and do something crazy. Like sell the house, or thing you have to move to a hotel.

    Remember, ALL paint had lead in it. The human race survived.

    So get facts and recommendations from your local health department and your doctors.

    Remediation usually consists of encapsulating (painting over or otherwise containing) peeling, flaking or powdering paint and replacing things like windows, doors and, yes, cabinets, which you intend to do anyway.

    Sometimes there are loans or tax breaks to pay for this. Ask about that too.

    You don't say how old your children are, but you can help a lot by doing 2 simple, practical things you do anyway -- handwashing and wiping down surfaces.

    Windowsills, floors where children may play, drag their toys, and those cabinets (encapsulating with shelf paper is a great idea you can do today) may collect tiny chips of lead paint. You can wipe way accumulations.

    You then want to make sure you keep the kids from transferring any chips they have picked up on their hands to their mouth, so that's the handwashing.

    Don't forget pets. They roll around on the floor in lead paint chips, chase toys, then lick their fur or chew bones. Poor things.

    Talk to their pediatrician. Again, don't freak out. It's not something you want, but an elevated lead level can be treated, particularly if it's something you're watching for.

    If need be, you could tear out the cabinets and buy a couple of shelves or cupboards for a couple of months. But then, remember children are injured in falls toppling accidents and other household accidents too, so any intermediate solution may have its consequences too.

    The Internet is probably not your friend on this one. You'll read horrible stories, untrue "nothing to worry about" stories and get confusing information. Don't believe anyone. Not even me!

    I'd go straight to local health and safety professionals.

    Take care.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    "Remember, ALL paint had lead in it. The human race survived."

    Not correct.

    Lead oxide was used as a pigment a very long time ago.
    It went out when titanium dioxide became available.

    The most common source of lead in paint is gloss paint that used lead acetate (AKA 'sugar of lead') as a gloss improver and hardener/dryer for the paint film.

    Flat paint rarely contained lead acetate, thus the problem is most common on painted woodwork, kitchen and bathroom walls, closet walls, and painted kitchen cabinets.

    The lead text kits are actually very reliable at detecting lead, but you need to ensure all paint layers are exposed for the reagent to contact them.

    They also give no real indication of the amount of lead present, but are very sensitive.

    The pros will use gamma ray fluorescence to test for lead, and it can give some indication of the amount present.
    A unit bombards the surface with gamma rays, and looks for the photons emitted by any lead atoms present.

    Labs often powder the sample and use the same reagent in the test swabs you purchase. They can determine how much lead is present by weighing the sample before testing and then measuring how much color is present from the reaction.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    painting without scraping or sanding is effective at encapsulating lead paint.

    A wash with TSP to dull the old paint, then a bonding primer, followed by two coats of paint.

    Friction surfaces can remain a problem, but you can buy time by covering them also.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    growlery is right.

    I gleaned one thing on the Paint forum here in GW:
    - "Alligatoring" occurs with oil based paint. Oil-based paint could have lead or not. Alligatoring is not a conclusive sign of the presence of lead.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Don't panic. We live in an 1825 house that probably has lots of lead paint. My daughter was born here. Lead dust is the biggest culprit. We had the windows mechanical restored and paint removed where the windows rub (our windows are between 180 - 100 years old). We painted over all the woodwork and didn't move the kids in until we finished. In MA kids under 5 are tested every year for lead. I had my daughter tested every 6 months because of my concerns on lead. To delead this house would cost $50,000+. Her lead levels were within acceptable limits. We moved out to Rocklin CA for 2 years into a 2 year old house. While living in CA my daughter's lead level was twice as high! Go figure. We're back in the old house in Boston.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Those little lead tester things you can buy at the hardware store are pretty accurate-- go and buy about 7-8 of them and test all over the place. It takes a couple of minutes. The tester turns red when it finds lead paint.

    My house has lead paint as the earliest layer, and the subsequent layers do not have it. Nevertheless, I was happy a week ago when (finally) I got rid of the kitchen cabinets once and for all. I made sure to be out of the house for that.

    It will make you feel better to test because, probably, the oldest layer is lead and the other ones are not. As long as the lead is hidden, that's good. The peeling = not so good, but fixable. Painters can come in and cover it up with paint-- they can peel off the other stuff and lightly sand (with masks on, while you are out of the house enjoying a beach vacation). Then they cover it up. It's possible the peeling paint is the not-lead paint (lead paint was super-durable, which is why they used it-- the lead paint in my house hasn't budged in over 60 years). That is a terrific outcome, because they the painters can peel off the not-lead stuff, cover everything up with a new color, and you're done.

    I agree not to panic, but I also think it's good to be vigilant about the things you know about/can control.

    Bostonpam, if I remember correctly lead paint isn't as much of an issue in the much older houses-- it was more of a 40's-50's thing. So maybe that's what's going on.

    At any rate, those little lead-tester pens are easy to get and use. If your house is like mine they will turn red all over the place, and then you'll know. If they don't turn red, you're probably fine.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Pickle

    Good ?'s and while responders are well intended not all info in factually correct

    I posted the EPA website for lead

    You should be concerned especially given the condition of the paint - Lead paint typically offers no harm until it is disturbed/flaking -
    Many think little ones eat lead & get poisoned - that is less frequent then nasal ingestion - occurs when lead is disturbed - becomes airborne, or surfaces are touched and then the person puts there hand near mouth or nose. Yes, handwashing is important - but by no means a guarantee.

    Any painted surface prior to 1978 should be suspect and tested. Another misnomer is to leave the premises while renovation/painting, disturbing the surface of lead is also not correct. While it is very advisable to be subject to any renovation/painting - it also must be cleaned up in accordance to strict criteria or when you move back you are moving in with lots of lead! - This should be included in renovation budgets but more often than not folks prefer having high end something or other & chose not to address a significant health threat.
    Another misnomer - There is NO acceptable lead level - while there are medical/epa criteria that is followed - there really is no evidence that clearly states lead is "safe" at any level. Yes we all lived through lots of exposures - but why subject a known exposure

    Simply using a mask while working w/lead does not safeguard either

    This is a cut/paste of some good abatement procedures
    Abatement?

    Lead paint abatement is the process of safely reducing lead paint hazards. Lead paint abatement can be very dangerous if done improperly. Its best to hire professional contractors to remove lead paint from your home. If abatement work is done improperly, a greater lead hazard may be created. Before beginning any work, contact your local health department for guidelines and state and local regulations regarding lead paint abatement in Massachusetts and in your city or town.You may also request a listing of Massachusetts-certified lead abatement contractors. If at all possible, hire a certified professional to do the work. Check their qualifications and request references.

    A Starting Point Use this information as a starting point to learn the basics about abatement, especially if you are considering doing any home remodeling or renovation projects yourself. If hiring a contractor, make sure he/she is taking the necessary precautions to protect your familyÂs health and safety. This pamphlet will provide you with some basic principles about lead paint abatement.

    Before Abatement Begins: Safety First

    Â Have all family members, especially children, tested for lead poisoning.

    Â Have your home inspected for lead poisoning by a professional contractor.Your local health department can help you find this information.

    Â Relocate children and pregnant women that may be poisoned until after the work is completed.

    Â Be sure to post warning signs at all entrances to the work area.

    Â Seal off all doors, windows, ducts, etc., with 6-mil plastic sheeting.

    Â Remove all furniture, carpets, drapes, etc.

    Â Cover everything that remains with plastic drop cloths. Do not use newspaper or fabric drop cloths

    . Â Limit access to the work area. No one must enter without proper protective equipment.

    Â If any part of a surface (window sill, door jamb), contains lead paint, the entire surface must be abated. This is especially true for chipping and flaking paint.

    Â Select the abatement method that will create the least amount of dust.

    Â Use adequate barriers to prevent lead dust from entering the rest of the environment. Do not use paper wall coverings, contact paper, or fresh paint as these are not durable barriers.

    Â DO NOT dry scrape; sand with a power grinder or electric plane; burn with a torch or a heat gun; sandblast; or use chemical removers that contain methylene chloride. CAUTION CAUTION CAUTION CAUTION

    http://www.selfhelpinc.org/LeadProgram.html

    It is relatively easy to test children - know there "baseline" - and to test your home

    Good luck

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Thank you, everyone! I have a ten-year-old and two preschoolers so luckily am past the baby stage. However, still need to be safe.

    I was prepared for dealing with potential lead paint on trimwork/doors, but was stupidly taken by surprise with the kitchen. I'm going to see how much professional testing is. If it's not too costly, I'll probably go that route. If it's very spendy, I might just do the DIY method for testing. I don't think whole house abatement would be feasible for us financially. However, it sounds like depending on the test results, we may be doing our kitchen reno sooner than expected. It's a bit disappointing because we won't be able to test run the kitchen much and see the whole flow with kids running amuck in the space. A minor disappointment in the big picture.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    So your kids are past the "putting everything in their mouth" stage. That goes a long way.

    I took a look at the pantry cupboard. Looks way later than 70s, and removable, so probably was never lead painted, so you could pitch it anyway.

    As I said. Get your information from professionals! Massachusetts has a lot of experience in lead removal. They'll know what you're talking about.

    One more thing to consider, which you already know, too, as a mother: Don't get so freaked out and distracted by "the lead thing" that you neglect the many very real, ordinary dangers around your house that send children to the hospital every day.

    The danger of lead is real, but so is the fence falling down in the back yard, the tree limb you were meaning to have someone cut before it fell, the bike helmets you meant to replace, the stair railing you meant to have installed. They can change your life in an instant, without warning, and they deserve your attention too. They're not as "sexy" and spend as much time in the news.

    So do what the experts tell you, don't freak out, and you'll be fine.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    In addition to testing I suggest that you use a HEPA vacuum. I used to live in an old row house with a baby who was learning to crawl. Someone advised that I needed to buy a HEPA vacuum and make sure to vacuum and mop regularly. The advice made sense so I purchased a HEPA vacuum and tried to mop more frequently. Luckily, my son did not have elevated lead levels.

    I understand your concerns. I lived through a rehab project and was soo worried about lead posioning that I got my lead levels tested before I got pregnant - my ob thought I was crazy.

    Good luck.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    In our old home, we had all our woodwork painted about 8 years ago, and our painter used masks, wet rags, and had me "be scarce" when he was sanding.
    One more thing: we're tearing off three layers of flooring, and we're concerned about asbestos. So---wouldn't trade our old home for anyone else's new one, but the issues are there and need to be addressed. Good for you for asking, and receiving good answers for your concerns.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    I saw this back up front so I thought I'd update. We tested for lead paint (using kits), and were so relieved that there was no lead paint in any of the revealed surfaces. After some DIY demo, we think that the cabinetry in the kitchen, mudroom, and basement were done in the 70s at the earliest. Donnakay, it's funny because we're now dealing with the asbestos issue. There are two layers of sheet vinyl that we'd like to pull up (there is hardwood underneath), but we need to test the vinyl first. The demo revealed some vinyl tiles in the basement. We're pretty sure that has asbestos and will be covering it up.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Let me know what you do about the asbestos. All three of our potential GCs stuck fingers in their ears and said, "la-la-la" when we mentioned it. One of the guys said we may have dodged that bullet because there were a few decades between the original wood floor or lino and the next layer. We'll see--so far it's vinyl--subfloor--vinyl--gray gluey stuff--wood? Not sure. I'm glad my DH has muscles! He got to the gray icky layer and said, "I think the new linoleum (Marmorette) can go right over this!" But we won't know until we test it, and then the subfloor may be too high. Keep us apprised of your progress!

Sponsored
EA Home Design
Average rating: 5 out of 5 stars75 Reviews
Loudoun County's Trusted Kitchen & Bath Designers | Best of Houzz