Pllog, thanks so much, I guess I didn't make myself clear enough. Where the fridge is in the pictures is based on an earlier plan that I was trying to go with. And, I did move the fridge over to what I felt was a respectable place, and yes we would have to extend the wall, which will look odd on the living room side because our hearth wraps around to where the wall ends now. And that six foot "baking counter" I have sticking out is just a peninsula, no uppers.

Bmore, I CAN take more pictures and I will if you think it will help! I just didn't want to make the thread out of control with pics. Maybe I can take some and then send a link to my photobucket. Would that be better? There are a ton of "before" on there now.

Carrie, the range is too large for an island, I think. I've never seen one in an island, and the vent hood would have to be big.

Rhome, you've done it again! I like this a lot. What exactly is to-counter storage? Just counter, with no upper? Do you like this? (yours)I can build the wall out farther, and I realized it doesn't intrude like I thought it would because DH moved our oven to that wall when he took it out, so I'd still have an oven to use, and it isn't bad at all.
And, is that a lowered area you added to the island?
Plus, what would you propose using the area you boxed in for?

Thanks

{{gwi:1929086}}

Honestly, I'm thinking you should contact Susan Serra for help with conceptual design. You're going to need photos, measurements and perhaps to give up on some of your preconditions.

A live designer in your area might be best, but if you can't find a kitchen designer, you might be able to get a lot out of the conversations.

Here is a link that might be useful: Susan's professional blog.

THe to-counter-storage: Since the freezer so close to the counter would, I feared, create kind of a cave in the corner, I was envisioning some baking storage that was a deep upper that comes all the way down to the counter. Actually, with that in the corner, you could also move the fridge and freezer set back left a foot, but it'd make the base cabinet into a blind corner.

Little island section: Yes, meant to be a lowered section like you've discussed wanting before

Boxed in section: I think you mean the counter with square facing out on the down side of the oven? I remembered you needed a special sink and since I removed a sink from the baking area in your above plan, I moved it around the corner. Could be a crafts area or breakfast/beverage/snack center.

It is big and spread out, but of everything we've tried, this is one I could see liking. And you have your little alcove. ;-) If you don't need the separate baking counter, you could move the pantry wall forward so the fridge isn't so far from the cooking area.

Thanks to you all for being so patient with me!

Rhome, in your layout, is there absolutely, positively, no way to put a small sink over where the *baking center* is? I'm just thinking how I'm always rinsing things while baking. Like, the mixer blades, measuring cups, spoons. I just took inventory to see what kind of baking stuff there is, and there are five drawers with cookie cutters, sprinkles, cupcake holders, cookie press, stuff like that. Granted, they are not Large, deep drawers, most are 12"x4", but they are full. I like the TCS idea, and also am envisioning over the baking counter, open shelves for bowls, maybe canisters with brown sugar, flour, etc. OK I'm rambling now.

Bmore, I like your plan, especially the one that had the angled alcove. But, since we are reusing our cabinets, they are all one piece, and not standard door widths, etc., so I cringe at the thought of trying to move them, early on, when we had the contractor add on, take the wall out, I had him look at them and he felt it would tear them up to try and relocate them. Said it would cost as much to rebuild them to fit than to just get new ones, and that is NOT in our budget.
I took a look at that web site you posted. She has some GREAT ideas and information. And, I could do an hour consult with her for $200, but I'm not sure just how much I would gain. Do you know of anyone who has done that? Anyone here have any experience with online designers?
I've always thought y'all were just as informative as any KD!!

Rhome, if you are concerned about the distance from fridge to range, do you think I should consider a refrigerator drawer closer to the range?

The sink around the corner (on the other side of the oven) wouldn't be close enough to the baking center? You could move it to the end, so it's next to the oven...Or move the oven down 2 ft, so you add more counter space to the baking area and make room for the sink. I would prefer that.

Will a refrigerator drawer unit hold everything you'll need in the cooking area? Vegetables, meat, sauces, butter, milk,... I really can't answer whether or not you should get one. For me they were too much money for too little space. For others, they're wonderful.

The TCS was only an idea to get the best use of that corner. If you're aware that the corner will be a little tight and dark with the freezer there, and want the open shelves instead (above the baking counter and maybe wrapping around the corner), that could work, too.

Looking at the plan, I see miles of counter it seems you might never really use. That's a lot of money possibly wasted? You're reusing cabinets...Do you really have as many as the plan will require? Can you post a picture of the plan as it exists now? I probably asked you for that in a prior thread, but I can't remember how things were/are laid out. I know you've posted photos before, but I have to compare layout to layout.

It would help to see more pics of the new space - even if the walls aren't finished yet.

I think you need someone to talk with about how to get from where you are to where you want to be - happy and cooking in a workable layout. You're under a lot of stress and you're trying to fit your ideal kitchen into a space that is challenging with requirements that are very difficult.

You are frustrated and tired. So, I'm suggesting you talk to somebody who is really experienced at kitchen design.

I did it and I was happy I did. Yeah, it was $200 - one percent of our kitchen costs (I think). I didn't ask for layout advice exactly, I more or less asked why I didn't seem to be getting the things we valued out of the floorplan I was considering. I'm sure we talked about everything in the course of the conversation, some layout, some remodeling ideas and that dh and I have wildly different ideas of beautiful and how to resolve that.

I did not end up taking all of the suggestions. But each one started me thinking a different way. We are very happy with our kitchen plan that resulted from those conversations and then worked out in detail with the generous advice of all here.

We achieved a lot of what we wanted. We have a greater connection with the outdoors, a place easy to cook in that's not afraid of flour, a great resolution of our taste issues where "rustic Georgian" actually became more than either one of us ever dreamed. And the big ref is gone.

Sometimes, you need to stop digging the hole deeper and ask for help. If you end up paying for an hour or two and get close to a viable layout, is that worth it to you?

I'm new to this one so forgive me for what I may not know has already gone into it. I'm looking at what rhome has suggested and thinking why not make that baking area the lower work area (that seems to be what folks want it for the most) and have the island all at one level. The you can move the prep sink closer to the end where it is a pivot and a step or two to the sink. My prep sink is right behind the area where I do most of my baking and it works great (you need a trash spot over there too). You could pull the oven all the way to the end and let the counter or built-in along that side wall but into the back of it. That would give you the option of bringing that wall forward and making the pantry larger while bringing the fridge and freezer a bit closer to the range and prep sink.

Fridge drawers can be great, but I have mine in a beverage/breakfast zone. I think I'd like them in a baking area, but I don't think I'd like them supporting my main cooking area. If you have a meat/cheese drawer and a veggie drawer, would milk go in there? Butter and eggs? And the biggest problem of all would seem to be all the condiments and such.

I'm not sure of everything you are after, but it doesn't look like it is time to give up.

I wasn't thinking straight, I was thinking the shelves with the TCS. I see now, both wouldn't work.

Here is the way the kitchen was when we started. DH moved the oven stack temporarily to the laundry room wall. And, we are moving the french doors to the outside over about 2 feet. (talk about redoing what you've done) :) The pantry is just framed in, but not permanent. The original outside window where we added on is still on the back laundry room wall, so that wall will have to be redone, whether we leave it where it is or not.
Paula Deen has an island like you have drawn, with a lowered area for sitting, and I love it. I love her kitchen! If your'e interested in what style I'm trying to achieve.

Here's the original layout:

Here's Paula's island:

Bmore, I missed your post. I think I'm going to think on this over the weekend, check out that website a little farther, and decide if that may be a way to go. But, I'm telling you, maybe I'm new to this, but I can't imagine any more people having more knowledge than you all.....

Lascatx, I appreciate your input, as a matter of fact, you are one who came up with great ideas in the thread that was lost in the abyss, and Rhome had taken a version of your ideas and put them on paper. I think we've even been working from that? Thanks for taking a look, I think you have some great ideas.

This is a rough estimation of paula dean's kitchen - at least what I can see of it on youtube.

{{gwi:1929089}}

I'd be very happy if you did something like this, not that that matters :). It's because it works fairly well for a one, two or three person serious-wanna-cook kitchen. Plus any number of onlookers.

The dishes are towards the dining area and accessible from the cooking area. The cooking area is well protected, but still open.

Wow, bmore, you found that on youtube? I guess I'll have to go do a search for it and see it.

Got to decide *something*, my DH called from work this morning and asked me if I was ready for him to "rip and tear, rip and tear,baby" LOL

I don't see how her floorplan would work in my space, but I sure do want it. :)

Is this kind of what yall are talking about?

Not exactly found that - I had to find videos of Ms. Dean cooking then start-stop and look.

I'm confused:

1) I'm missing the connection between what Bmore drew and your last plan, except the prep sink which seems to face into .

2) What is going on over by the oven...The deep counter with centered sink?

3) What does the arc line on/by the island represent?

4) I'm still wondering if you have as many cabinets to re-use as you show in this plan. You might spend as much to fill in as you would to do a mostly new, more efficient space?

Any chance of putting the range at the opposite end of the room so you might vent through the outside wall?

Rhome, what Bmore did was Paula Deen's layout. I had just mentioned that she had my dream kitchen, and she took the liberty of looking it up and drawing it out.
I can't see it getting into my kitchen except maybe the island, which I LOVE. There is no connection, unfortunately. :)

In the plan I posted, I was trying to see if that was what you and Lascatx were talking about, moving the pantry wall farther in, moving the oven down two feet, and adding the sink on the counter. My design program wouldn't let me place the sink in a specific area, it just put it right in the middle, which I don't think would be practical. Although, Lascatx DId mention making the island sink on the end which would make the baking center and prep area accessable. If I did that, I wouldn't need the sink over in the baking area.

As far as having enough cabinets, I AM going to have the island built. Other than that, it seems I'm losing cabinets because the peninsula is 11 feet of cabinets. Plus, Dh has already taken the microwave cabinet/w an upper HUGE cabinet, and the cabinet over the Refrigerator.
Plus, the oven stack, which had a large upper cabinet, and a bottom drawer.

That arc line was there by mistake, I just redid an old plan on my program, and at one time had that arc for a curved island top for seating. I forgot to take it off. Sorry.

Tell me what you are thinking about the range on the opposite end to vent outside? Where the sink is? There's a huge window there. Or, where the pantry is? Or where the wall is on the inside wall of the pantry. The way my house is built, it's two story starting where the wall is housing all those glass uppers, and then it's one story where the kitchen is. It's weird. I posted a bunch of photos in my photobucket per bmore's request, I'm trying to figure how to just post a link to that particular album so there won't be 18 pictures in a thread!

Thank yall for sticking with me. REALLY, I'm stressing.

Per Bmore's request, I'm putting a link to a bunch of pictures I took today, they are all under the "remodel" album, the first 18 I took today. There are some older pictures from before we took ANYTHING out. Including the pantry, wall, built in china cabinet, etc.

Here is a link that might be useful: House pictures

Sometimes these things are hard to discuss via writing! ;-) I see now that you moved the pantry wall down a foot. Not really as much as I was thinking. But I'm not seeing the oven in a different spot than I had it, because if it moves 2 ft down, it lines up with the closet for the hot water heater.

I thought you had some sort of special sink or special faucet system you needed over in that area that wouldn't be replaced by a prep sink in the island. Am I remembering wrong or did something change?

Moving the range...I meant on the same wall, but down by the sink. But that idea would've meant moving the fridge where the sink is, and I forgot about the window!

Rhome, yes I have that pesky microelectrolized water thing and it has to hook to the faucet, and the box has to sit on the counter, it is just an eye sore! But, it does something that prevents me from getting kidney stones. I get them a LOT. So, I have to have it, and preferred to move it out of sight. Maybe I could put a little bar sink in the pantry. :) If I move it more, it's going to be HUGE.

Oh, I see what you mean about the oven, I moved it a little, but I will try what you are suggesting.
Thanks

Is this what y'all are talking about? Or, close to it? If so, I'm going to tack some sheets up to see how closed off that feels, but actually, since the wall ends midway, it may just work!

OH, and what in the world am I going to do with that HUGE pantry? I think it's almost the same size as my smallest bedroom, but that's not saying anything, that room is really too little to be a bedroom! But it is!

Now you're talking about a 4th sink... It seems your pantry and kitchen are so huge. Is that where you want all your square footage? Is that a family room by the kitchen and one behind it?

I just noticed that little bump out laundry/mud room area...At least I think that's what it is. Is that an addition, too? Is it there and in operation right now?

I was trying to work on your plan and came up with a question. In the original plan you show water lines in walls and I think I remembered you trying to preserve them way back in one of the first posts. In the new plans those locations are in the middle of spaces (one in the baking area about 4 ft out from the wall, and one in the pantry, centered about 3 ft up from the wall in the last plan). Are we not bound by the location of those water lines and drains in redesigning the space?

Rhome, THank you! The water line with a drain is on the back wall of the old existing laundry. If you scroll up a few posts to that original layout, the one which says "Existing water and drain", is where we are going to tie the island sink to. If there's no sink planned in that vicinity, it can be cut off and not used. (just the drain)

On the inside wall where the desk is now located, and says "water lines through wall", those are the main water lines to the house and can't be tampered with. DH said he can toggle them a foot or two, but not much more. They just have to be enclosed. In the last plan I posted, there is a box next to the oven, since I moved the oven out another three feet, it put them inside where the oven is. When I tried putting the box on the outside edge of the counter by the oven, my planner kept moving it to the back of the wall. I am assuming that there will need to be a very small, thin enclosure for them. We opened the wall up on the backside to get the exact location, and they run just about 2 feet inside that wall. Oh, and the sink which shows in that area, I meant to take out. UNLESS it would be useful. That water filter contraption would be a little more hidden if I put it over there.

That is a family room and family room on both sides of the kitchen. If you or anyone else has a better idea on how to use those spaces, I am absolutely open to any suggestions.

The bump out: We have a detached garage and I hated it because we always got wet when it was raining. So, early on, we decided when we did remodel, we would put in a mudroom, and since I wanted the laundry out of the middle of the house, we made it a laundry room. Yes, it is functional, we have the washer/dryer out there, as well as the old pantry. It's not finished, I plan on reusing the cabinets that are in the old laundry now, we have not finished it, DH has been focusing on other projects, running gas line into house, lighting, hmmm, what HAS Dh been doing? :)

Thanks again, so much

That is a family room and family room on both sides of the kitchen. If you or anyone else has a better idea on how to use those spaces, I am absolutely open to any suggestions.

Very hard to make suggestions on how someone else should use their house! I don't have any way of knowing if you might be able to use an office, a sewing room, a music room, a media room.... You didn't have some preplanned ideas on how the spaces would look and be used when you decided the shape and size of the addition?

When I counted squares from the corner by the sink window, the green dots in the plan as it used to be (drawn in blue and red) didn't coordinate with the boxes in the new plans, so I was concerned. Maybe they just have to be in line with those green dots?

What are the little enclosures on the left side of the dining space?

If the pantry is getting too large, could you partition some of it off and be able to take advantage of the space better if a portion was accessible from the outside (exterior)?

Rhome, I know it's hard to tell someone else how to live, but I've never known how to utilize the space in this house. We bought it because we had 5 weeks to relocate, it had 5 bedrooms 6 barstools, and I just said, "that will accomodate us". LOL It was traumatic because we had just FINISHED (no, you're never finished) restoring a 100 year old farmhouse and it was our true love.

Anyway, we could never use the dining room, the former owners were using it as an office, and when I tried to put a table in to fit our family, it was very cramped. But, I was an "eat at the table" mother.

We've been here 14 years now, and we call one side the kids side, and the kitchen side, our side. This house has 3000 sq feet and it is the most unusable amount of space I've ever seen. The bedrooms are tiny. And, the laundry being in the middle of two unusable spaces just seemed so illogical that it was on my mind to move it two weeks after we moved in! So, after all that time, I STILL have no idea how/where to put things. I see 3000sq ft on House Hunters and wonder where in the world all that space is here. :)

ON the plans, I may have messed them up on the program. I seem to move things, trade things, shift, and it may be off more than I know! The blue and red plan is EXACT. I know this because when I first got on here, BevAngel showed me where to measure and exactly where, and she drew it out in the paint program perfectly. I'll go back and look and see what happened.

I don't know what you are referring to about the two little enclosures left of the dining. On the right, one box is the heateror AC, and the top box is part of the bathroom downstairs. Is that what your'e talking about?

Geesh, I've got to get to looking at those plans and see what the heck now.

Thanks!

Yes, I actually meant the little enclosures on the RIGHT of the dining space...Sorry about that! They seemed to be about the size of bathrooms, but there were no other clues.

Do you have uses for 2 family rooms? In our house, I could see one as a seating/TV space and one as a more rowdy space...for games and such.

OH Rhoome, if you could just see these teares!! I"M OFF by THREE FEET!!!! The dimensions from the back of the house to the sink are exact. The water lines are 1 foot over too far to the left. BUT....The RANGE WALL to the HW Tank wall is THREE FEET BIGGER in my planning program!!!

OH for goodness sake! I'm going to sonic and getting a cherry limeade and come back and fix it! 'm SOOOOO sorrry.
I Can't figure out how that happened!

Oooh. Get me one, too. That sounds good!

I thought things were fitting easier than they had in the past. ;-) These things happen. Be glad you found it now, rather than when you tried to fit everything in and it wouldn't go...

OK, worked on this till 3am this morning, then all day today. It is as exact as I can get it!

I'm posting the layout as it is NOW. (except the range, which I just stuck at the end)
Working on the floorplan as we were talking about, and will post what I come up with in a bit. Just wanted to get the real deal on here in case anyone is taking a stab at it!

Thanks again to any and all!!

The Real Layout:

Is This something like you are talking about?

I'm not sure what you were going for in this latest plan. What suggestion were you trying to follow?

Isn't the range further down than you said would work?
What is to the left the range? (toward the top of the plan)
What's going on to the left of the main sink where it extends into the family room?

Those little rooms to the right of the dining table are now larger/wider than they were before. Is that correct?

Rhome, I modified it so you can see those spaces as they are.

The end cabinet, I just left there, it's the end of the peninsula and on the plan, I put a down to the counter cabinet, just to see how it looks. I have that weird space in the family room behind the peninsula that I have no idea what to do with. By the range, I was just playing, and put in my Paula Deen fireplace. :) forgot to delete it.

The island is not like I would proportion it, but, in my planner, it's the only rectangle offered, and then it wouldn't let me modify it. I guess when it gets down to the serious sink/drawer and what not placement, I'll just build one out of base cabinets.

I did as you suggested, and moved the wall straight over from the HW wall and added the oven there. Brought the pantry in 2 feet.

The range is as far down as can go, I may have even put it a foot too far, I'll have to go check the mark on the wall in the kitchen and make sure.

So, what do you think of this?

With my software, I always build islands out of base cabinets.

Maybe you should show more of the plan at the bottom, so we can see that odd area in the family room behind the peninsula.

More questions before I can play: Is that nameless room crowding the family room too much? What will you use it for? Will you still try to put a sink in the baking area, or just use the prep sink?

Rhome, here is more of the plan with the family room.

I haven't decided about the sink. I don't know if there is enough room. What do you think?

I'm going to hang up curtains or something on that wall to see how if it feels closed in too much. This is my project tomorrow.

We decided that nameless room instead of being for the kids, to make it a study, library, kind of my room. May put my coffee maker in there and a chaise lounge, well, that's my vision anyway. :) DH made the suggestion tonight, if it seems too closed off, putting up a knee high wall with columns to kind of tie in the ones which will have to go on the island. What do you think of that idea?

Here's the plan showing the family room:

I will try to play with this and get back to you ASAP. Can't promise how fast.

Thank you Rhome, you have no idea how much I appreciate your help.

I guess no one else is up to the challenge! :) Or maybe they just know I'm nuts. LOL

Thanks again

I thought I posted a note earlier that said I'd come up with an idea but thought you might want to kill me and I was going to think about it some more. Now I have another one. Back in a bit LOL

Thanks lascatx! I always like your ideas! Can't wait to see what you come up with!

While I'm looking at this, tell me -- have you already made the changes indicated by the green lines -- moving the laundry room, enclosing the patio and such?

A moves the sink to use the more accessible counter and cabinets for dish storage and something like a coffee area. Still puts dishes far away from dining, but utilizes your counter space better:

This one moves the fridge and freezer closer, moves the stove down where I meant...Where the it could vent to the outside wall. Again, using the available counter space in the main kitchen more, and leaving the baking area more clear, and maybe so it could be a serving/auxiliary area for the dining room. The oven could go at either end, but this way it's easier to access while cooking.:

Last, this puts the dishes closer to the eating area, and uses the window now over the sink for a nice view out while doing baking tasks. Again, the stove is moved to vent through the exterior wall, and the counter space in the main kitchen serves you in some way. The area behind the oven could be an attractive storage unit for whatever you'd like. This one makes the most sense to me.:

Also looking forward to what Lascatx is cooking up!

Rhome, thanks so much! OK, I'm leaning toward liking A the best. I don't know why, but the range brought down that far on that wall just bugs me. I put the cardboard range down there a few minutes ago, and it's bothering me for some reason, I'll play around with it in the morning a little more and see how it goes. I'll make "breakfast" there. (OK pour the milk in the cereal and pretend it's pancakes)

Maybe I like A because when I first saw it, I thought, "there's Paula's kitchen"! :) And, you're right, of course about that long stretch of counter that doesn't seem to have a purpose.

Now, I'll get DH to make me a cardboard sink in the morning and see how it works out over there without a window.

Lot's to think about and use my cardboard appliances in differing configurations!

Lascatx, I don't know if you're still up, but, yes, we moved the laundry room, but the walls are not taken down, and in the layout that says "real layout" it's how the house is now. I didn't even take the peninsula out. But, those are the only things I can think of that would change, the yellow box in the middle of the house, and the peninsula. I hope that answered your question!
And, we did add a covered porch to the back of the house where the two doors are, BUT, the doors on the left do not have a covered part. Just a couple of feet to the right is where the cover starts.
Thanks!

What about furring out the wall for the range to allow for venting? The island has to be moved, so I change its shape to allow for seating and so that the rest of the aisle weren't so wide.

Thank you houseful! It's an idea that I am not sure would work. The range will stick out three inches already, and I wonder how much you would have to fir it out to vent behind th fieplace? I'm afraid it would stick out far enough that it would be a bumper? I'll have to put my "range" there, stuck out, but I'm think it will be too out there.

I've been playing with Rhome's configurations the last 24 hours and still doing so, as well as working on my own. I'm going to post what I've been working on in a little while.

My problem is this; we use the back door primarily. No one uses the front door, ever. Even my UPS and Fed Ex guys know and come to the back. :) So, when you open the back door, putting the range at the end of that wall has a dramatic effect with the big brick alcove staring at you when you walk into the door. Moving it over, takes away that presence. I know that sounds stupid in planning a "Functional" kitchen, but then, I don't see how those three feet can matter that much! Right now, the column and peninsula are there, and maybe THAT is throwing off what I vision, I'm just having to try and imagine.

Lascatx, where are you?

Rhome, do you think making the pantry that much larger would make it big enough to hold an icemaker and beverage center for the kids? I was thinking that 2 foot bump out might make a good place for their snack area? Or is that not a good idea?
Thanks!

Do you mean you'd create a beverage and snack center inside the pantry? Do you want to send them into your pantry with everything else you're storing? Will it be a problem that they'll be out of sight? I'm seeing sticky spills, dropped ice, etc. that you don't know about 'til later. Are you still planning to put your special faucet and sink in there?

Our breakfast/sandwich/snack counter is in the far corner of our kitchen and it becomes a mess that the kids forget to wipe up, even though it's out in the open. If it was tucked away in the pantry, I know I'd find a mess every time I went in... Depends on how closely you want to supervise and check on it, I suppose, and if you have neatniks or grab-and-go grandchildren. ;-)

Well, I forgot about the mess! But, better in the pantry than in the kitchen, IMHO. :) I was just playing around with the plan and thought those extra two feet might be useful doing *something* like that, and they aren't here every day, except, I do have one living with me.

Maybe this sounds odd, but I keep going back and forth with the range location, and when I look at it 3D, I always seem to like it better at the end of the wall. I've got another one to post, nothing is really different, except I opened up half the wall to the pantry by my room and added a *SMALL* sink and that awful looking filter and the coffee maker. No one drinks coffee besides me. It looked convenient. Now, I figure yall are going to think it is a bad idea, so I'm braced, but I can take it, that's what I'm here for! I don't care if anyone gets brutal, I would rather go through some hard core teaching, and although I may argue back a little with what I *want*, coming out with a well designed, functional, pretty, but DIFFERENT looking kitchen is all worth it!

Here is my latest: (ducking) LOL

Sorry -- I think I fell off the end of the earth -- no that was just the first week of school, meetings almost every night since then, football and band going full tilt and I thought I could function with little or no sleep. My son had a big roller coaster experience with his college and life plans over the weekend and the first of this week. I'm still not certain where that will wind up, but the crisis moment has passed. OMG -- I'm not sure I'm ready for this senior year. I'll be okay when he leaves for college, but deciding where he will go and all that goes with that is not going to be easy for this one.

I was supposed to be somewhere else hours ago, so I will quickly tell you what I was playing with and see if it sparks any interest rather than spending more time trying to get back to drawing it up and then finding it's impossible or whatever. I'm really getting caught up on the living spaces and flow of the home more than the knit-picking of the kitchen itself. The main thing that is bothering me there is the pantry being so far away from the cooking and prep areas.

If you have enough cabinets to put your spices and most used staples in them near your baking and cooking zones and use the pantry for extra storage, small appliances and extra bakeware -- the things you don't need daily or won't have to go grab as you adjust or improvise when cooking, it might work. Or if you cook in an orderly fashion -- all by recipes or can gather everything once and not need to run to the pantry to get something you forgot or decide you need to adjust or improve something, it may work for you. I had a kitchen with a pantry across an aisle -- not as far as this one would be, and it drove me crazy -- to the point of hating to cook. I had very few cabinets in the kitchen itself and no room for any food other than the fridge. Even my spices were in the pantry. The walk-in pantry was one of the reasons I loved the house when I first saw it and one of the reasons I hated it by the time I left. -- but it was the whole package and you have more to work with. Just make sure you know where things will go and how it will work for you.

I was thinking that instead of moving the laundry you simply move the door and reorient it, but if that has moved already, it's a moot point. I was kind of hoping that would save some expense so you wouldn't hate me if I suggested taking the kitchen to the right instead of to the back so that you could create a large great room rather than having things divided. It doesn't sound like you live divided and need the two living areas and two dining areas. I will forget that for now -- looks like it might be too much and too late.

However, I would not wall off the area in front of the master. I was thinking of moving the desk that faces the kitchen and putting it over between the coat closet and the master BR door, then make that open area (overgrown hallway) a reading or game area with comfy reading chairs and/or a game table for playing cards, board games, crafts, extra dining for get togethers, etc. That's an area that will work with your family room but still give you an added function. I think I would still do that and even if you go with the kitchen pretty much as planned, the area that was patio could be a crafting/activity room that is more segregated and can be closed off from the much used door. I think that closing off that space and having traffic right through the middle of it would make it a mess in terms of too much hall and too little room to work with.

If you make that area a game/study area, you could make that wall separating that area from the kitchen a peninsula - go all talls on the back wall and then have a pass through so that you can do snacks, coffee/beverages and even buffets there. If you have island seating, you then have three eating areas for when the family and grandkids are all there -- possibly even room to set up another folding table - and everyone can see each other.

The thing that really stuck with me was that this house didn't flow and you wondered where the space was. I am afraid that if you wall it up and box things up like you have them, you might not improve that at all -- maybe make it worse. As I said at the start -- I have been out of the loop on all that has preceded it, so if I'm off on the wrong track I'm sorry.

I really like the idea of making that sink and coffee are accessible to your area! An individual luxury that doesn't subtract from anything is great. I can't read what's across from it on the pantry side, but I hope the sink can be used from both areas.

In the last plan, the lowered section of the island closes things up quite a bit and makes a more difficult path from stove to fridge. I would shorten that back, or leave it off until the kitchen is finished and mock it up before committing to anything permanent. If it's important, I'd try to shorten the island a little. You'll want at least 4 ft in between it and the fridge...my opinion.

I do think you have enough storage around your cooking and baking areas to store the essentials, so you won't have the problems Lascatx had with her distant pantry.

You are back to having the unused section of counter...

Lascatx, thank you so much for the input. Something to think about, for sure. MY you HAVE been busy! I can empathize with the kid drama, went through that four times, and it definately was one rollercoaster ride!

What would yall think of a wall there, (from the HW closet) but rather than a full wall, a knee high wall, with maybe a 5' opening, with columns on the opening sides and bookcases on the outside facing the family room? My daughter suggested that, because I have sheets up there now, and it DOES seem closed off. Then, maybe lascatx is right, it could be used as a game room? My grandkids, and I like putting puzzles together, maybe a table in there for that type stuff?

Where my cooktop is now in relation to where my pantry used to be, it's about the same length walk from the new area. It didn't bother me, all my spices and such are near the cooktop.

Rhome, I got to thinking about that unused section of counter. I was frying squash the other night, and that peninsula is 10'. I used every square inch of it, with bowls of squash, milk bath, dredge, and another bowl for the cooked. Would it be the same, just on the other side? I realize the island will be used for prepping, but when cooking, you've got to have all that kind of stuff on the range side. So, maybe it will become more useable?

Good idea about leaving that lowered part off until we see what space there is. I'll try shortening the island, it seemed it needed to be that long to be accessible to the baking area also.

Thanks so much, I think we are getting there!

Have to straddle the right line between having the island close enough to the baking area, but not in your path from stove to fridge. You have to decide what will work best for you.

I only meant to consider shortening the island if you're SURE you want that little section in there, and want it a certain depth. Weigh the pros and cons and decide how big you want that shorter section, and set the island's length accordingly. Hope that makes sense.

I just fried some squash, too!...I put the flour bowl behind the egg/milk bowl immediatly to the left of the griddle which was on the rangetop, and the raw squash to the left of the bowls. I put the cooked squash on a platter on the island for people to serve from, so used about 18" of countertop by the stove. ;-) We all do things differently and have to plan our kitchens to meet our individual needs.

Thanks Rhome, I DO want the lowered area at the end of the island. Ever since you came up with that idea way back when, I started envisioning that I wouldn't need a counter hangover on the island for seating, and this could be a place to let the kids pull up chairs to do things. Since they are growing, a 32" height would be good, and even if they aren't making cookies or decorating cupcakes, they could sit and play with their playdough (yuk) or game or whatever while I cook.
If the island is 4 to 5' wide, I was thinking about a 30-36" square at the end. 30" may be too small for them to do much with.

So, if I put the oven at the end of that wall, we WILL need to have something to tie it in with the other area. What do you think of the knee high wall idea?

Ahh, you're such an effecient cook! Wish I could be that way.

So, are we close to start tweaking?

I like the idea for the more open look to that room...It'll be separate, so any mess/clutter/activity is contained, but you can see through for spaciousness-sake, and also keep an eye on things.

Like I said, I think you'll want about 4 ft between the little island section and the fridge. I would want that little lowered part, too, as I think it will serve you well. I just measured, and I have 46" in between my fridge/freezer set and the wall in front of it. So 44" would be my minimum, preferring 48", since inches count here with it being the walk through area to the dining room and other family area. Just make sure you're taking into account the fridge's full depth (26" plus an inch or two behind it) and not figuring it at 24", as it shows in your plan.

OK Rhome, I got it! Going to work on that and will post the latest in a bit.

Thanks so much!!