I like the island set-up in your plan better than the architect's. His or her plan left too much space in the center of the kitchen to make the island serve as prep area.

How do you envision using the island? How big is it? I can't find its dimensions on your plan.

Have you seen ovens set below a cook top IRL? Just wanted you to be aware that the oven door is lower than a range's oven door. It's not a set-up I would like but I have periodic back issues so I would hate lifting up a heavy pan from that far down. There are induction ranges but none offer a 2nd oven yet unfortunately.

If the side bench is only 3' long from wall to end, that is undersized, IMO. Seating width recs are for 24" width minimum per person so that leaves a bench depth of only 12" along the long wall, which is too shallow for comfortable seating for any length of time. I think you'd be better off leaving the bench along the one wall only with chairs on the opposite side of the table and no seating at the ends. It would sit 4 comfortably and 6 when needed, although you'd have to move the table out of the alcove to make room for people to get to the bench. How many seats do you need?

Your silverware, dinnerware and glasses storage is too far from the DW. Sure, it's close to the table but it will be a pain to unload the DW.

I'd also like to see a larger stretch of counter between sink and cook top.

It looks like you've installed the fridge and pantry to be flush with the W/D, which are deep. Is that correct? Is it for looks or is there another reason why you're choosing to do this?

Frankly, your kitchen seems heavy on appliances and light on storage. Do you have any flexibility on the wine fridge and the 2nd oven?

I missed the discussion on your previous thread so perhaps you've already answered some of these questions. btw, it would be helpful if you would link to that thread not just for people like me who didn't participate but also as a reminder of what's been asked and answered.

Palimpsest noticed the same issues your plan has versus your architect's plan.

I morphed the two and came up with this.

The table is bounded at each end by support posts. It is a table only, not an island, no cabs, nothing, just table and chairs. It will serve as laundry folding table, though, which is handy.

I eliminated the banquette area. As I noted above, it's tight seating as you'd drawn it. I opted instead for a window seat, creating a casual place to sit, have a cup of coffee or an adult beverage and visit or read. A small bistro table provides a place to set drinks down, it's not meant for more than that. It needs to stay small so that it doesn't affect your aisles.

I pushed the fridge and pantry back to be even with your cab run, not the W/D cab (which, btw, may need to be slightly larger than you drew it to have room for cab sides and required air clearance around the W/D) and I put the pantry between fridge and W/D stack so that you won't have any issues opening your fridge and pulling out fridge drawers. The pantry pull-outs should be like this

[

[Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/kitchen-ideas-phbr0-bp~t_709) by Atlanta Closet & Home Storage Designers ShelfGenie National

so that you can see and access items in the pantry even though it's not as deep as the W/D cab next to it.

The right wall of the kitchen is as your architect drew it.

I added a long, narrow island with a prep sink so that you don't have to cross the hot zone to go from fridge to sink to rinse items before going to the cook top and ovens. The island houses the wine fridge, booze, glasses, etc in cabs that face the table. The prep sink can double as a bar sink when you entertain.

Aisles are a bit tighter than recommended - 44" for seating aisle, 42" for one-butt kitchen aisle - but are workable, IMO. A number of GWers have kitchen work aisles that are only 36", I gave you 37". I encourage you to a mock-up and see if they will work for you, though.

FYI, before we replaced our kitchen table with one slightly narrower, the aisle between table and island, which is the main path from front hall to back door, was only 40". I never realized it was undersized until I measured it. It wasn't an issue for us, even when our sons' friends were over.

Thanks for the great feedback so far! Keep it coming!!

The original island was 8'x3'8'. The new version is 4'6x8'. It was initially supposed to be a workspace/table combo, but I realized to Lisa's point that it will really be only used as a table if we keep it like that. I also had the concerns about more appliances than storage, and that's part of why I started modifying the island. If we were to use the architect's design as is, we would add an additional workspace, much like you did. We were thinking something less fixed, like this:

[

[Eclectic Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/eclectic-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2104) by Vancouver Photographers Shawn St.Peter Photography

However, our concern is that with 2 islands and the corner nook, it starts to get very cluttered and busy. That led me to want to move the dining area to the nook and use the island as a work station w/ more storage. There are only 2 of us for now, but with house guests and entertaining, we would want to be able to seat 4-5 regularly and 6+ for special occasions. You make a good point about the limited side seating, so we will remove it.

I'm glad you all pointed out the issue with the dinnerware being so far from the dishwasher. My concern is that if we move the sink/DW back to the corner, there's not really any more storage over there, and then the sink is really far from the fridge. We could put the dinnerware and glassware in the uppers over the DW in my layout to resolve the issue, and then would just need a place for the flatware - either over the tupperware or back in the corner by the ovens. I could also probably get 18-20" of drawers next to the DW if I cut the tupperware/wraps drawers in half and take the extra 6" from the drawers on the other end (which would also put more counter space between the sink and ovens). OR the dinnerware/flatware could go in the drawers on the end of the island. So let's assume we can solve the storage location issue - would you still move the sink? (I don't think we could do a second sink because of the costs, so let's assume only 1.)

How does the pantry on the left allow more space for the fridge doors? We would have french doors on the fridge, so I assumed it wouldn't matter which side. I actually wanted the left originally so I could put stuff from the fridge directly on the counter to the right, but since the laundry and pantry are paneled it looks better to flank the fridge with them. I guess if we kept all cabs the same color, it wouldn't matter as much. We put the fridge and pantry at the same depth as the laundry for 3 reasons: 1. a 36" deep fridge would look built-in without built-in prices 2. deeper pantry = more storage and 3. if we put the "tall things" in a contrasting color to the other cabinets, we would want them all flush so they form a wall.

We haven't seen the ovens under the counter in person. We are planning on using the new Bosch swing door ovens, so hopefully that helps with some of the bending issues (only down vs. down and over). It does mean that we would want 30" clearance on either side, though, for the door to swing out. There is also a chance we may not be able to use both ovens because we only have 100 AMPs and it would be very $$$ to upgrade, so we could reduce to a double wall oven or just a single. I'm not a huge fan of the double wall oven because it seems like the top oven is too high to easily see and reach inside. However, I don't have personal experience using them so maybe it's not really an issue?

Here is the link to my other post for reference: http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/remodel/msg0812432221051.html
I plan to add an update as soon as we make a final decision on the contractor!

I only have time to post a few thoughts.

I mistakenly thought that you were adding a built-in fridge - your drawing makes it look like a built-in - but now it sounds as though you plan to go with a standard depth fridge. That will require a cab larger than you've planned for. All free-standing fridges require air clearance on each side (mine is 1" on each side), then you add in the thickness of the cab sides and you're at least 2.5" wider than you show on your plan. Or are you planning on a 33" wide fridge not a 36" wide fridge?

You will need clearance on each side of the fridge in order to fully open the doors (past 90 degrees) in order to pull out the fridge drawers. If the fridge box is flush with the W/D cab, that solves the issue. If it's recessed back, then putting the pantry cab between it and the fridge solves that problem.

I put the pantry between fridge and W/D to give some distance between a heat-producing dryer and the fridge.

I would definitely find an install of ovens below the counter before you commit to doing that. As I wrote, they will be a lot lower than an oven in a range.

Instead of double ovens, have you considered a single oven and a speed oven? I initially thought I wanted DOs and then came to the same realization you did: if I put the bottom oven where I wanted it, the top oven would be too high for me (I'm vertically challenged ;-). If I moved the top oven down, then the bottom oven was too low. So I'm doing the single oven/speed oven combo and the height of each will work be just right.

btw, I've seen the side-swinging Bosch wall ovens. Slick!

btw, I started out wanting a warming drawer and double ovens. I'm now planning on a single oven and speed oven, no warming drawer. Both ovens offer a "keep warm" feature plus we have a toaster oven (purchased when our oven died last summer, couldn't be repaired, couldn't be replaced) which also has a "keep warm" feature. I also have a turkey roaster (also purchased when oven died) so I've got many ways to get a meal to the table and to keep it warm until it gets there.

This post was edited by lisa_a on Wed, Oct 1, 14 at 12:46

I'm not against under counter ovens, but when you have two side-by-side under the counter like that, you are creating a long stretch of counter space above it that doesn't have good cabinet support below. Speak to your fabricator and cabinet maker before the design is finalized and see what kind of retrofitting that area would need to properly support your stone.

Layouts that have fridges that aren't immediately adjacent to a counter run would drive me crazy.

When I make a sandwich, I might take 5-6 things out of the fridge
- pickles or maybe capers
- mayo
- sliced meats
- sliced cheese
- arugula
- onions
etc

Same with breakfast.

Not having a counter run directly adjacent to the fridge would mean lots of extra steps.

Therefore, my suggestion is: move the pantry to the left of the fridge, so that the fridge can be right next to the counter.

btw, I've seen the side-swinging Bosch wall ovens. Slick!

So have I, and they are (slick)!

Jillius, I'm a bit confused by your post since I've never heard this concern before. Each oven will be in its own cab so there will be a cab support between the two. IOW, it's not one long opening for 2 ovens. That shouldn't be any different than having 2 banks of 30" wide drawers side by side and no one's ever questioned that they wouldn't provide counter support. What am I missing?

I've seen ovens installed side by side below a counter many times. Here are a few examples from houzz.

[

[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Dublin Architects & Building Designers Optimise Design

[

[Rustic Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/rustic-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2111) by Columbus Architects & Building Designers Andrew Melaragno

RooAndCheese, the first kitchen pic reminded me to remind you to check the clearance requirements for the induction cook top you choose. Some require minimal clearance below them, which would make it possible to install the ovens as high as possible. Compare the 1st pic to this set-up with the oven pushed all the way to the bottom of the base cab

[

[Contemporary Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by Kailua Architects & Building Designers Archipelago Hawaii Luxury Home Designs

This is so helpful! I mocked up two more versions of the design, incorporating all of your feedback.

The first is mostly minor changes - swapping the fridge and pantry and adjusting for the air clearance, rearranging some storage locations, and changing the seating bench. I did add 2 little ottomans there which I think we could keep in the LR or under the table and just use when we need to have 6 at the table.

The second is if we have to go to wall ovens because of the limited amps or we don't like the ovens under induction when seen in person. I like the idea of the wall ovens as the other anchor for the open shelving, but that corner area feels a little cramped to me in this option and I don't know how to fix it. The other option I considered was leaving the sink where it is in the previous design and putting the ovens in the corner by the table with the cooktop next to it.

BTW, I think the speed oven is a great solution to my height concerns, especially since we wouldn't have a microwave otherwise. A few months ago we got the Cuisinart steam oven to help decide if we wanted a built-in steam oven as our second. Now we use it all the time, and while it's not as fast as a microwave I much prefer it.

Am I understanding your 2nd drawing correctly that the oven columns are smack up against the cook top? Uh, no, sorry, but that's a really bad idea! The side of the cab will be ruined pretty quickly from oil and steam but also it gives you absolutely no elbow room to work around the burners on that side of the cook top and no landing zone to the left of the cook top.

NKBA suggests a minimum of 12" of landing zone on one side and 15" on the other but most people prefer more since pans generally need more room than 12".

I also don't think putting the sink at the end of the island is a good idea either. You need counter on each side. If this were a tiny NYC apartment, then you'd likely have no choice but your kitchen isn't tiny. And the DW is on the opposite side of the island? Uh, no, don't do this. It would be incredibly inconvenient to load. You're not using the space to its full potential.

How wide is the aisle between island and sectional? If you can move the table that I drew in my Plan A 6" towards the sectional and still maintain a 44" aisle, that would ease the aisles between table and island and island and range wall. If by cluttered (your earlier comment), you mean tight aisles, then the above is a rather easy solution to that concern.

I'm not wed to my suggestion. It's your kitchen. But I really think you need to think your ideas through carefully because I don't think they are functionally practical. I'm not being unkind, just blunt. Kitchen remodels are expensive and it would be a shame if you spent a lot of money and ended up with a kitchen that didn't work as well as it possibly could for you.