The Wolf sounds like a winner! I'm so happy for you!! They, at least, have great customer service. And I think I remember someone here, some time ago, saying that the pyrolitics worked well. I know the Monogram was more than you wanted to spend and the Wolf will probably be more than that, but it really is worth it. There are some people who hardly ever use ovens. You're not one of them!

This sounds like a story that's headed for a happy ending. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you Rhome!

I'd hate to see this thread end though. It's generated so much interesting oven talk and I am still SO unhappy with the options that I see.

I had to make a decision so my cabinet maker could proceed and I spent days and weeks agonizing over ovens - going back and forth to appliance stores, printing out spec sheets and comparing, staying up all hours on the web.

I finally concluded I hated them all but I had to commit. I decided the least bad in my price range was the Bosch (probably 800 series). I've still been keeping my eye open for a closeout/discounted/scratch&dent/Ebayed Gagg or Miele. Now maybe I'll add Wolf to that pie in the sky list. My cabinet maker will flip if I change my mind again, though.

One issue I have - all ovens now seem to have concealed elements. I'm wondering if the exposed versus concealed element thing is similar to the open versus sealed burner thing on rangetops - an "improvement" manufacturers came up with to make everything supposedly easier to clean, but which sacrifices function.

I am also an artisan bread baker. I most often bake bread now in cast iron pots with lids but I when I bake the loaves directly on a pizza stone, I place a pan filled with lava rocks directly on the oven floor. The rocks get very hot when I preheat the oven. When I load my bread into the oven I dump boiling water over the lava rocks and it causes a great burst of steam which gives great oven spring to the loaves.

At least this was how I did it in my old Westinghouse "Electa-matic" 60's era double ovens. The pan with rocks fit neatly inside the area not covered by the element.

In the 15 years I lived with these ovens I twice had to replace the element. No problem. Pulled that thing out, took it to the local old school appliance part store and got a new one for a few bucks. Stuck it back in there myself. Easy peasy.

Now I'm told if I place a hot pan directly on the oven floor it will warp.
A previous poster says that because of the element being hidden it takes the oven longer to heat back up to temp when you open the door.

If I knew then what I know now, I might have kept those two ovens - peeling enamel, rotting insulation and all. Or maybe not.

Point is, now I feel like I'm spending thousands to get something not nearly as good as what I had. Ah, but what else is new.

Rhome, I'm just wondering, why you didn't consider another Fisher & Paykel pair and just not use the self-clean feature? Wasn't that it's failing and otherwise you thought it performed beautifully? I'm not suggesting you don't get the Wolf since that sounds like a fantastic deal. I'm asking more for myself, since I was also considering F&P. I've seen those older models on Ebay and been tempted. Then I would just never use the self-clean feature. Was there another issue with them?

Jim at Metropolitan did some more research for me with his distributor for me and found a way to save me money if I buy from him, too. It's great to have been happy with EVERY person I met and talked to yesterday. i wish I could give everyone my business, as they've all gone an extra mile. Even though they're not the small and personable business I'd usually prefer, since Albert Lee is where I got the Monogram and they've helped with GE, and are working with the refund situation, it seems best/right to stay with them, I think... I have to say that it's nice to have options! And again, find people who care and understood my struggles.

Bickybee:
I did put some thought into getting another F&P. It would have to be the older version, because I don't really like the current one, even if the buttons did work right. I have a couple of concerns with that idea. First of all, there were issues with previous F&P ovens, so I'd want to be sure it was manufactured the right year, and I'm not sure how to do that and what the right year was. Second, if the oven had ANY problems at all, I'm not sure I'd get much help from F&P after they pulled away from me, saying I was 'too rural' to serve.

I actually love enclosed elements and wouldn't want to go back. You make a good point about replacement, of course. The idea, other than cleaning, was that the heat is more evenly distributed...No hot spots right over the element. I sure wouldn't put a pan on the oven bottom, but won't putting it on the lowest rack position work?

In my old oven I put the pan on the oven bottom and left it there all the time. The fact that it wasn't taking up rack space was a plus. Maybe my new oven will be bigger and that won't be an issue.

I also keep a pizza stone (or two) in my oven all the time. This I keep on the bottom rack. I know I can place lighter items right on top, but for some things I like the air to circulate and the stone prevents that. I've also broken stones by placing things on top which turned out to be too heavy.

I'm glad to hear enclosed elements do actually have a plus side. That makes me more hopeful.

Make sure you get as much height and rack positions as you need to have all that in the oven (don't choose one with bulky racks, like the Monogram)...I wonder if the oven will have as much room inside as your old one with the increase in insulation and with a convection fan if you have one...

I've broken my pizza stone, too. It finally was in 4 pieces and I got tired of fitting it back together like a puzzle! But it wasn't from anything heavy on it..It just broke on it's own after a couple years of use.

Yeah, the Bosch says it has the biggest 30" oven on the market at 4.7 cu ft. The 500 series has convection on top but not on the bottom so there's more room in the bottom oven. The racks are much smaller than many. Some have commented on that as a minus.

I loved how the big sturdy telescoping racks in the E'lux all roll out so easily, but it did look to me like those racks and all the apparatus that goes with it took up a lot of space in that oven.

The Bosch 500 series does not come with any telescoping racks, which is why I'm considering the 800 series. It comes with one and it has convection in both. Not sure if convection in both is a plus or minus for me but it would be nice to have one easy roll out rack for my heavy cast iron pots.

Hmmm. Wondering if maybe I should reconsider F&P ovens. I live in a big city. My local appliance store carries a lot of F&P and they work with their customers when there are service issues. I shouldn't have anybody tell me I'm too far away for service, I would hope. I wonder how I would find out which year is a good year? Unlike wine, I can't sample it!

Also I'm planning to get 2 F&P fridges and their dishdrawers. That's a lot of eggs in one basket.

A lot of eggs in one basket should be good in terms of getting a good price...and maybe for getting good service. The current F&P oven model is only 2 yrs old, at most, and they didn't produce a lot of them very quickly...So if you're looking at the ones in an appliance store, rather than at older models on-line, I don't think you have to worry about the year of manufacture.

Bosch: You can buy the telescoping racks and add them to the 500. Did you look in the ovens and verify that the non-convection cavity is actually larger? I know that in the Dacor I considered, the thermal oven was nicely bigger..but also know that it's not the case with all brands. I can't remember if I said so in this thread, but convection is overrated as far as I'm concerned, at least for baking. I do like it for roasting meat, and it's good for multiple racks of cookies, but that's not my priority. I could always manage to do a couple racks in a thermal oven if I wanted. Maybe with the Wolf, my convection experience will be different.

Reported oven size is also overrated. Even with measuring the Monogram, it needs so much room for the racks and so much room for the air to get around things that, as I quoted my husband saying, I might as well bake in the toaster oven. After having the Monogram racks, the Electrolux ones seem quite sleek and non-bulky. Plus you can take the rack out and leave the slide out part for easier storage and for using as cooling racks. Pretty cool. They might be less bulky than the F&P glide racks...and I think they come out all the way? (full extension?) The F&P racks are 3/4 extension.

If I couldn't have managed the Wolf, I would probably have gotten Electrolux. As I said, I just couldn't consider F&P and wouldn't choose to have the mirror finish doors in my kitchen again. I'd recommend DCS if you got anything more for your $1400 difference from the F&P than just the look. Almost worth it, but not quite. ;-)

Well, I wish you all the best, but if this guy breaks your heart again, I'm gonna break his handles.

Oh, dear, I sure hope he's not my Richard Burton oven...Go through the marriage twice, then quickly decide that wasn't a good idea. haha..?

My other choice would be to get an Electrolux or Bosch 500 series for a lower price and set my expectations lower and at least be happy I didn't go further into debt and be able to use the excess refund for other needs... or even buy a $1500 plain old GE/Whirlpool/Frigidaire...then not expect much at all. Who knows, one of those could surprise me...But how to know. Gaah!

Great news RHome410!!! I hope the fourth time's the charm!

Great to hear about your find! It's so weird - I posted early in this thread that I know little about ovens, but how about the Wolf, most particularly the E Series. I feel like that lady in the TV show "Medium", somehow seeing it happen before it happens (cue spooky music). Ha - just kiddin' wichya. But it sounds like you got very lucky. Now I will have "oven envy" for you (in a good way LOL). Make sure to post photos when it's installed. Heck, I'd even like to see a pic of those big boys as they are now, on the store floor.

One question though - is the full Wolf warranty on this display model? You may want to call Wolf directly and ask, just to be on the safe side. Perhaps write down the serial number too in case they ask.

You were wiser than you knew, Alwaysfixin! I didn't believe I could ever get a Wolf near my price range...Not sure I'd call it near, actually, but definitely nearer! And I'm glad not to have the flip around screen. The touch panel on the E-series is awesome...Kind of frosty/matte white. Not the hated black glass. And, yes, it comes with the full Wolf warranty. I have that in writing.

"Bosch: You can buy the telescoping racks and add them to the 500."

Yes, I thought about that. Buying a rack separately makes the 500 cost the same as the 800. If I get the 800, I'm getting convection in both ovens. Even if I'm not sure if I want convection in both, it sounds like I'd be getting more for my money with the 800. Originally, I liked the 500 because it has knobs and the 800 is all electronic. A salesman told me that both ovens have electronic control panels. The knobs are mostly esthetic. Does anybody know if this is true?

"Did you look in the ovens and verify that the non-convection cavity is actually larger?"

I'm pretty sure I measured and it is slightly bigger though I've seen so many ovens, I could be mistaken. Both cavities measured bigger than other comparable ovens, for sure.

"I can't remember if I said so in this thread, but convection is overrated as far as I'm concerned, at least for baking. I do like it for roasting meat, and it's good for multiple racks of cookies, but that's not my priority."

Same here. I've never lived with convection until this temporary house which has a GE oven with convection. I can't tell the difference. In fact, seems to me that it slows things down, but I'm sure it must be this particular oven.

I also have toyed with the idea of getting gas double ovens. I love cooking with gas and I think especially for roasting it's great. I looked at the American Range double ovens and love the way they look with the French doors, but again, they are pricey.

Hmmm...I really like my convection ovens. Things cook noticeably faster than the "conventional" modes (but not as fast as the "speed cook" modes). I do 98% of my baking/roasting in either convection or speed cook...I rarely use the "conventional" modes.

I have the GE Profile Trivection double ovens (identical "innards" and functionality as the GE Monogram, but less expensive). I also had a GE Profile smooth top convection range prior in my old kitchen...all worked very, very well (except the cookies not browning evenly).

Here is a link that might be useful: Another Blog to Check...better than the my neighbor's!

the E-series is the one I had mentioned- congratulations!!

I will wait for your report how do you like its performance. I like its appearance much more than the L-series model, but L-series is more loaded and I was told the price difference is less than 10% of the price, so I was not sure which will be my final pick. I am not sure whether I really need convection in both ovens, but I would sure like the triple glass on the doors and the soft openings in the doors...

I will wait for your updates how do you like the E-series in action.

I remember you mentioning it, too, efs. But I'd completely forgotten that it didn't have convection in both ovens! No one even mentioned that yesterday... I need to run off the manual and look it over, and watch the video on the Wolf site.

That blog is super cute, Buehl!

I have never had two ovens and as of now, I only have convection in my toaster-oven :-) so I really have no “feel” how much I will be missing the convection in the second oven as I do not bake breads etc daily. My reasoning was that if I can live without two ovens (except for holidays), having convection in only one will be enough for me, but I would like to hear comments from those who have double ovens: how often do you use convections in both ovens at the same time?

And BTW, Buehl, I do like convection for roasting meats and do think it's faster for that...Just not that important or even good for some baked goods. I am hoping the Wolf convection will be better and now I realize it's only in the top oven. After saying all this time, I'd like a simple, well-built oven and don't care much about extras or even convection, I'm nervous that I'll regret not having their highly regarded dual convection in both ovens. I think I'm overthinking this and am starting to drive myself crazy. EFS, I use normal bake for so many things, I've rarely had convection on in both ovens at once. However, with the size crew we have to feed, I have roasted chicken in both ovens at once, and when the kids start to bring home spouses and kids, I'm sure both ovens will be in full swing...But if I only have convection in one oven, that's what I'll have.

I wonder if the thermal cavity is larger so I can fit in more loaves of bread?

Rhome, I have the double E series and have been using them since May. They are great. They heat up quickly and the heat is very even. I am sure you got a very good deal. I bought mine at Fredericks in Redmond and they were very nice to work with. Wolf had a rebate at the time so that helped with the price. I also have the rangetop so we must have twin kitchens. LOL

Kalapointer, Hi! Are you able to keep your rangetop at all clean? ;-)

I think Fredericks is the one appliance store in the area I haven't ever made it to. If I did, it was long ago and I have forgotten. I always mean to, but since it's the farthest north, I always run out of day and/or energy before I get there.

I'm glad you like the oven! I am convinced that they have the best research and testing behind them, and good build quality. I am now concerned about not having convection in both ovens, but I can't afford to go up to the L series, and I'll probably get along fine, since I use regular old bake so much. Just thinking of those big events where I need 2 turkeys or 2 roast beasts...So I'm a little sad about that limitation now that I'm faced with it! Dumb. Just part of the 2nd guessing.

Rhome, No my rangetop is always spotted with something, but I love that I can wash everything in the sink and put it all back together. You will love the ovens even with only one convection oven you can still cook a turkey or roast the the thermal one and it will be just as good. Don't second guess yourself, do did the right thing. As I am writing this I can hear my potatoes boiling over right now. Gotta go!!

Kalapointer, Do you have a giant sink to soak the shiny black underpans? Those are the bane of my existence! Well, not quite, but everything seems to cook onto them and not want to let loose. It's not like you can get to them easily and clean them up when still hot, but when cool, it's too late. I gave up caring most of the time and they just look splotchy. The rest looks so good, it'd be nice if those would clean up pretty, too! :-D

Thanks for the encouragement about the oven. I just wish the bottom oven had a probe. I LOVE that feature.

I am sorry you're having difficulties. I haven't read through this entire thread, but wanted to let you know (if you didn't hear) that BASCO is closing their Seattle store and selling off the floor models and inventory. I remember that you weren't thrilled with them when visiting in the past, however I thought you might like to know....just in case.

Rhome, yes I have a giant single bowl sink(I love it)that the under pans fit in. But if my rangetop has spots and someone notices them, they need to get a life or eat somewhere else! LOL
You can always buy a temperature probe that has a wire that you can shut the oven door on and set the timer and temperature on the counter. They work great and I use them most of the time. I hope this is the last oven that you need to buy for a long time. Good luck with it.

Thanks, Athomesewing. I know that my experience was long ago, could've been a one-time situation, and I trusted your good reports. :-) I did look at their list a few days ago...Not any of the brands I wanted to consider. I wish I had thought of it when we first found out! But, oh well...Wasn't meant to be.

Congradulations On Your "Final Selection"
I Blessed your decison, (Kinda) in the appliances forum, (The thread about the KA Ovens).

Hope they work out great---butt----- kinda "Sneak up on those Wolves" with your thermometers (LOL).

My work is done, I get back to my cars (Now Don't everybody applaud at ONCE)!!!

See Ya!

Gary

Gary! You wandered your way over to the kitchen forum! Nice to see you in this neighborhood. ;-)

I THINK it's my final decision...What's important is that it be my final oven! --That doesn't necessarily sound right, but you know what I mean...

Kalapointer, that's a good idea. A gadget I don't have. I see that the E-series also only has one timer. One very nice thing about the Monogram is that it had a timer for each oven and the clock still showed while they timed. But I'd rather have accurate and consistent temps than the clock.

Did you see what Caroline posted about goo? I haven't tried it, but trust the source. She said to put baking soda on it, cover with a towel, and pour hot water on. Let set over night. It's supposed to clean up easily after that. Might work on your rangetop pans?

Capacity question: Can you fit two turkeys into one oven? I usually do one 20-22 lb. bird per two dozen people. One doesn't take up my whole oven. I think I could get two 18 lb. ones in if not two of the bigger ones. Also, look into small farms near you. Someone was saying her 40 lb. bird came out great and had no trouble fitting in her oven. I think you'll be okay with only the one having convection, though it might take some new strategies. :)

I have used one of those external probes with the wire that threads through the door for years with my old oven--they're great, and handy for all sorts of things, including heating the milk for making yogurt.

If you can manage with the bottom oven being non convection, I can't see how this could possibly be a 'bad' choice. Wolf ovens are known for great quality and longevity.

Have fun!
Cj

I don't know if the rangetop pan spots would count as 'goo'. It's all flat onto the pans...nothing mounded up...and it's been there SOOOO long and cooked on over and over. That technique may have worked at one time. That's the main reason I wish I would have gotten a super single instead of my dbl bowl cleanup sink.

I think I've managed high heat roasting of a turkey without convection...or am pretty sure I could. (I don't even really like turkey, or at least could take or leave it.) Like I said, I was just excited about how good the Wolf is supposed to be and the different way it convects, thinking it's something I might really miss. In the oven I have, I wouldn't miss it.

It's funny that I would almost feel better if neither oven had it, then there'd be nothing to miss. It's kind of like when I heard about 'hybrid cooktops' with the induction and the radiant on one cooktop, and knew I'd never want one...I knew I'd love the induction and only want to use half the stove. I want to WANT to use both ovens.

Yogurt! You'll have to tell me how to make it. That's something I've never made, but we eat it all the time. I need to learn to make Greek yogurt...I don't think it's much more difficult, but it's pricey to buy. That's going on my list of things to try, along with (speaking of Caroline/Trailrunner) sourdough starter...

I had some great turkeys, amazing breads, from-scratch pates and every type of French pastry and dessert imaginable out of my frumpy old thermal ovens all those years before convection came to town -- even good enough for Julia. No worries. Babe, you're getting a Wolf! Think of it as dual fuel.

I know...Just examining from every angle and doing my infamous 2nd-guessing and panicking. It's a LOT of money for us. I was initially hoping to underspend my refund...Ha!

Ive never heard of a complaint with Gagganeu's.
Sounds like you demand more from a residential oven than most. Maybe you need a true commercial oven.
If I were you..i'd want to try first before purchasing anything at this stage. See if you can find someone that likes cooking as well and loves their oven and perhaps youll make a new cooking buddy in the process.

On the making of turkey in the oven in a fast and efficient way...just spatchcock the sucker ! Martha Stewart featured it last year in her Nov, issue and I will never fix it any other way. Marvelously fast and juicy and you can do 2 at a time...cause they are flattened...so you will have 2 - 13# turkeys and they will cook in 90 min.

My chef son did the cutting and said " oh yeh Mom this is a great way to do a bird". So why had he not told me this before. Believe me you will never fix it the old way.

Definitely try the baking soda. It gets everything clean. Thick coating and lay a thick cloth over the bs and pour on boiling water till cloth is soaked. Leave till the next day. Then use Bar Keeper's Friend to polish them up and get rid of spots. Rococogurl has used the method to clean up her oven, I am pretty sure it was her, and it worked great.

Yes you need to get busy making starter. Oh and Greek yogurt is simply regular yogurt that you drain off most of the whey to thicken it...easy peasy ! c

I'm sure I could love a Gaggenau, too, but at almost twice the price of the Wolf I found, that's not going to happen! I was floored when I heard the Gagg price. Maybe I will try to find a live Wolf to try out. All my cooking buddies seem to be here, but too far away to use their ovens! :-) I considered a commercial oven, but too many problems with having one in a residence.

Spatchcock?! That's a new one for me! I looked it up, though, and think I saw something on it recently.

rhome -- if you're near kalapointer (sounds like? but I don't know the area) perhaps she'd let you come by and test-drive her Es. Or, perhaps there's another local volunteer. Ladies?

trailrunner, your spatchcock sounds like my t&t poulet a la crapaudine or the Italian chicken under the brick.

Rhome, I've been away the last couple of days -- lots and lots going on here, but wanted to check back. I never looked at a demo Wolf, so I didn't know they restricted discounting there too but I guess it doesn't surprise me.

The E series came out after I got mine -- I might have chosen one convection so that the other would be just a bit deeper since the convection fan takes up room in the back. I sure wouldn't miss the rotating control panel -- I never turn it anyway. Mine is unframed though and I like it, but I really could have gone either way. I think you'll be happy with it.

Maybe a call BASCO? They are definitely not listing everything on the Clearance page that is available at the store. The Portland store will remain open, so maybe their clearance page is more up to date.

Rhome, Sure if you want to see a live E series, just email me. I am sure we can work something out. BTW I am in Port Townsend, not sure where you are in Western WA

Kalapointer, was going to email, but your page doesn't have an email link...I have contacted Albert Lee to see about a live oven, so will see what they have to say before I think about imposing on you. Thanks for your kind offer! I am only about an hour from PT.

Thanks for checking back in, Lascatx. I think the flipping panel is a little silly, but whatever. As long as it bakes! I do really like the touch panel on the E Series compared to others, but I probably said that.

I didn't realize Basco had things they didn't list, Athomesewing. Did they carry Wolf? I mostly remember a lot of Viking, but of course, know they had a lot of brands. They might not be allowed to list certain brands-- Crossroads had a Gaggenau in their clearance warehouse last year that they weren't allowed to list online. Another 'hindsight is 20/20' situation!

Dying to jump on this:
http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/app/1993064161.html

Or even this, even though it doesn't bake:
http://portland.craigslist.org/clc/app/1999382077.html

But am a little worried about them being too good to be true...or strictly legal...after the recent post about people selling (stealing) stuff out of about-to-be-repo'd homes. The reason on the ovens seems vague...

McRaney did some sleuthing and found the seller of the fridge has similar ads in several cities, and there was some info found about the other seller, too. I want everyone to know that I wasn't really considering those. But I feel badly that it's so hard any more to trust anything, and for people to buy or sell used goods and be safe.

Update: Monogram oven left Wednesday. (No pizza night this week!)

But...DECISION MADE. I called in the payment today and DH is planning to pick it up this afternoon.

I'm embarrassed to say that this whole thing had me suffering great anxiety to the point of feeling sick. People have cancer, seriously ill children, and other major life and death worries, and I was thrown about choosing an oven. Dumb. But, I didn't want to spend the ridiculous amount of money...as is anything over $1000 for an oven, if you ask me. The prices out there just aren't reasonable, but they're what we have to deal with. ANYway, I couldn't feel confident about the suitability and reliability of any oven but the Wolf for us. It made sense in so many ways, and after some angst of his own and listening to the results of my research, since DH agreed, that's what we're getting. I have set up a budget to help us handle the cost, and I hope it's realistic and will work. Time will tell. I've felt so much responsibility in making this decision and REALLY don't want to be disappointed or regret the expense. I hope I love it!

Additionally, I hope I purchased from the right store. I had 2 reasonable choices with different pluses.

It shouldn't be so hard to choose an oven and be assured it will arrive working and stay working. The gentleman who picked up my oven and gave me the refund check thought I was VERY lucky to have had GE agree to a refund. He said none of the manufacturers ever want to do that. They just want to keep trying to fix the original unit. He says he's installed new units that don't work, and he's always somewhat shocked and disappointed when he calls to get authorization to remove the defective appliance and trade it for another that works, but is told to leave it there and they'll send a tech to fix it. He said 'people spend all this money and if it doesn't work they're stuck with it anyway...And it's all up to the manufacturer whether they can ever get a replacement unit or a refund, and usually they don't want to do that.' Not great for consumers.

please update us how you like the Wolf. The E-series double oves is my pick for my future kitchen, so I am very curious how does it deliver; especially that you have recent experiences with other ovens to compare it ot :-)

I'm happy for you rhome.... :-)

Rhome, I hope you will be thrilled with the Wolf. If you got the floor demo and it is missing anything, let me know -- I have a couple of spare parts from the replacement and would be glad to check to see if I have one for you.

I completely understand the emotional upheaval. I went through something similar with mine before it was replaced and all I wanted to be happy was simple -- not to ever have another oven. Sounds simple enough, right?

BTW, I had a turkey in the freezer and figured I was going to be doing turkey again too soon if I waited much longer to use it, so I popped it in the fridge to thaw last week and cooked it TH. It didn't have the weight tag on it anymore, but DH and I were guessing 15 lbs. I rubbed it with Bicentennial Rub from Penzey's, cooked it on convection roast and it was done in about 2-1/2 hours. We used to sear on high heat and then turn it down, but the convection roast cycle's hot moving air sears, so it cooks faster and still stays moist. Be careful come Thanksgiving. ;-)

Rhome, is that homemade bread I smell, wafting all the way to Newcastle?