I prefer the new Feit Electric 4" modules to the CR4 - brighter, better color rendering (94+ CRI), much less expensive (especially if you get the Costco version). The Cree was the best available when it was new but I don't think they've always kept up with the competition in the last year. I also find the light from the CR4/CR6 to be a tad pinkish.

Lee,

Thanks for the feedback. I'll look into the Feit models asap. Any suggestions or observations on trends moving away from 6" cans toward 4" cans for whole house lighting?

Also - do you need to go insulated or non-insulated on the can/housing unit? (My inclination would be to save the $ and go non-insulated but you'd be in trouble if you ever went back to a standard halogen is my understanding).

Thanks again - like I said, I wouldn't have even known about the Feit without your suggestion so much appreciated!

Andrew

Hello Andrew,

Several comments
1. The main cost for cans is the labour to install. A ball park estimate of ~$100+ per can would be reasonable.
2. Installing/Replacing a CR4 can be trickier than a CR6 for people with large hands since the cavity space is significantly less.
3. The price differential between the insulated and non insulated cans is not all that significant (4").
4. The cost of a 6" can + LED lamps - CR6 is slightly less than a 4" can + CR4.

Home Automation could be used to control lighting layers...

PS - I received your email, but
(PLEASE NOTE: The member responding to your post has chosen not to reveal his or her email address. Therefore, you cannot reply to this message via email.)

I'm not a huge fan of small lights just for the sake of being small - you do need to be more careful about the same amount of light emanating from a smaller area, which can cause glare if you look up at the ceiling. But in some installations they can look good and less obtrusive than larger cans.

I always go insulated (and usually air-tight) for cans that go into a ceiling below an attic or roof. I'm less familiar with installing on a lower floor, though the last time I did an installation where the ceiling wasn't drywalled yet we used IC cans simply because they were more readily available and sometimes cost less. Except for remodeler cans for ceilings that are already drywalled and you don't want to cut anything beyond a 3" to 6" hole.

These are the Feit 4" LEDs I was referring to. At Costco they have completely different packaging and model number but the same lamp inside. Costco doesn't sell the 6" version at least where I live (they have another brand that doesn't look as good for the 6-inchers), but Feit does make a 5"/6" version (which is much brighter than the Cree CR6, and also uses more power). You still have the option of separate trim kits and reflector bulbs too, although if you're fine with (usually) white trim and (usually) white frosted lens on the bulb, the modules make more sense and are better at heat dissipation. If you don't already have trim kits (as when installing new cans), the modules are also less expensive.

Andrew,

There are 2 main routes with led recessed lighting
1. Lamp module & housing
2. Lamp + housing + trim ring

Material costs constitute less than 50% of the total cost, especially for large installations.

If you're looking to save costs and yet have elegant lighting, alternatives like cove lighting could be used to augment or in some cases replace recessed cans.

I'd venture that the installation will be performed by a licensed electrician who is familiar with LED lighting. If so, the important aspects you'd need to look at are
1. Style - layers of light, contemporary/ traditional/ ...
2. Sufficient lighting for the various spaces
3. Cost

You'd also need to collaborate extensively with your electrician and architect to ensure that the chosen lighting (lamps/ bulbs/ strips) do not cause electrical noise/ interference and meets the design requirements.

David & Lee,

Thanks for the feedback and funny you mention Cove lighting as I'm planning on lighting up the Tray in the Master bedroom as well as figuring out how to backlight the mirrors in the master bath as we have a pocket door making sconces impractical to put on each side of the mirror. (A center doorway splits the His/Hers Vanities)

Any suggestions for LED strip lighting for the following projects?

-Kitchen Undercabinet Lighting
-Master Bedroom Tray Cove Lighting
-Behind Mirror/Backlit Lighting in Master Bath?

Thanks again guys! Doing bid walkthroughs with several Control4 dealers today to talk automation (That seems like one area I can't find much feedback on the GW community about).

Andrew

Check the UCL thread for ideas on the Kitchen UCL.

The main decision you'll need to resolve is whether to use low vs line voltage for cove lighting, backlit mirrors, ...

Your electrician should be able to do the necessary calculations to figure out a low voltage vs line voltage solution.

Alternate ways of lighting mirrors include
1. hanging sconces - Robern uplift sconce which hangs from the ceiling
http://www.robern.com/product/detail.rbn?productNumber=UFLWAL

2. Having cutouts in the mirror in order to install wall mounted sconces

3. Indirect lighting

The Home Automation installers will also want a hand in installing your lighting.

Control4 dealers appear to be more focused on home entertainment. All controls must be dealer installed. The min price point which generates interest is ~ $20k.

One often touted advantage of Control4 is the ability to form a mesh network.

Unfortunately, it is really difficult to achieve this in real life for home automation as some switches may be in multi gang boxes and others may be quite distant.

Commercial wifi networks on the other hand can be planned that the necessary access points are positioned appropriately to create a robust mesh network.

Lutron's RadioRA2 is another viable solution/ alternative which you should explore. IMO, RadioRA2 is less painful than Control4 and includes shading options.

Both are proprietary.

Andrew,

Lots of good info in this thread. Are you sure you want mostly can lights for your lighting? From my research, having a good mix of up light (sconces, cove, some lamps and some ceiling fixtures) and down light (cans) offers the most flattering light. I would certainly avoid having a can light over a head of where a person would sit or stand for long periods. Cans can also be directed to bounce the light off walls for indirect light and/or to use to accent art. Down lights tend to age a person when they are over top of heads-- just saying. Have you posted your lighting plan?

I am looking forward to hearing what you learn through your research on lighting controls. They seem pricey, but I sure like the convenience of lighting scenes vs long banks of light switches (and not knowing what turns on which light).

Best of luck.

Carol

The Cree CR4 seems to have changed in design recently and the new ones are smaller and easier to fit into cans. Cree also has a brand new DR4/DR6 series that maintain the 90+ CRI (color rendering index) of the original CR4/CR6 but cost substantially less. Same lumens but they draw 12.5 watts rather than 9.5. These are also sold at Home Depot as part of the TW Series line in the dark blue boxes with different model designations. They too have the shallower dimensions, and both sizes use separate dongles with the Edison or GU24 connector. Haven't tried any of these new ones yet, they just became available two weeks ago.
{{gwi:2135486}}

Lee - You just brought up a good question that no one at Home Depot could answer for me the other day. EcoSmart branded bulbs seem to carry a lot of shelf space at Home Depot. Does anyone know if that is their "store branded line" that they own/carry?

It seems my stores in Metro Detroit do carry the CREE bulbs (Can't seem to find Feit here) and EcoSmart but MUCH MORE shelf space is dedicated to the EcoSmart lines. Any professional comments from those with experience? Thanks!

Andrew,

I can't help you with LED lamp (bulb) selection as we are not there yet. I can tell you, that unfortunately for us, we have more can lights currently roughed in on our main living spaces than I now want. We were in a hurry to get the rough in electrical done and just listened to the electrician (as well as architect and 2 designers) to mainly light our 8 foot ceilings with can lights. It was after this rough-in that I started reading every book I could get my hands on to understand the best way to layer light and found out what a mistake mostly cans lights will be. Over Christmas holidays I was in a newly constructed house that was well light up with almost all can lights and it was bright but not flattering and the owner wished they had more fixtures. The owner also remarked that they never have the cans on more than 50% intensity (well dimmed).

So, long story short, my DH is going to remove some of the currently rough-in cans, move others, which will mean he needs to pull fresh wires, etc. It will be time consuming, but now that I have read what I have on lighting design (and shared it with DH) it will need to be done. Recently, we met with a talented lighting designer (not a general designer, but one who specializes in lighting design) and she was in total agreement with our plan of reducing the can lights and replacing with other light sources.

Just in case you or anyone else is looking for lighting design books these are my favourites:

1) The Home Lighting Effects Bible (by Lucy Martin)
2) Residential Lighting: A Practical Guide to Beautiful and Sustainable Design (by Randall Whitehead)
3)Perfect Lighting (by Sally Store)
4)Residential Lighting Design (by Marcus Steffen)
5) Randall Whitehead also has a blog on lighting design with some videos you can watch (he is the author of one of the above books).

If you know of any other good books or websites on lighting design please add to this list.

Can't wait to see your lighting plan, Andrew.

Not sure what you meant by "get strategic with circuits for setting up "lighting scenes" via different dimmer switches", but it sounds promising as those light scenes are over priced.

Carol

Lutron has multiple options for Home automation
On the low end there is the caseta line, which anyone can install and control via the Staples hub, Wink, Lutron hub,... This is targeted at the same market occupied by z wave devices.
Z wave doesn't scale very well
There is an upper bound of 50 devices which can be controlled by caseta.

Then there is RadioRA2 which provides more controls, but is more involved and better suited for larger installations (> 20 controls).
There is also HomeWorks from Lutron - legacy(?) system.

It is possible to get RadioRA2 at a price lower than Control4 as Lutron doesn't seem to as strict as Control4 over the distribution.

EnOcean is another alternative to RadioRA2 and Control4. Leviton sells such devices under the label LevNet.

With wireless HA, multiway switches are rendered largely obsolete as circuits can be controlled remotely.

Fwiw, FrontPoint security is a pretty good choice for an alarm system. The integration with Lutron works pretty well.

Davidtay,

I will explore some of the options you kindly listed above for scene control. Do you have a rough idea how much the least expensive one costs (e.g. Caseta line?) I would like 3 scene control switches (one for the dining room, great room and one for the kitchen). I just don't want those huge banks of light switches in the 3 main rooms listed above. After going to the trouble to layer the lights in those rooms properly, I would just like to be able to easily set different lighting scenes without flipping switches on and off trying to figure out what works. I find the subject of lighting controls confusing to say the least, and my research so far says none of the systems are affordable.

Carol

Sorry for the duplicate post

This post was edited by OntarioMom on Sun, Feb 1, 15 at 18:00

> There is a growing discussion that recessed lighting will be going the way of the Dodo Bird eventually - much of that has to do with energy efficiency and the fact that building science spends so much time making an energy efficient home then homeowners love to make swiss-cheese relatively non air-tight holes in the ceiling to let heat/energy escape. (Even with ICAT housings, etc.)

Unlikely. Insulation around recessed cans and air loss a non-issue with many first-floor or lower floor installations where there's a level above it. And even on the top level, there should be ample insulation above the air-sealed IC cans to be efficient. You think lighting the room with floor lamps (often with lampshades that steal much of the light) in the corners is more efficient than overhead cans?

Ecosmart is a Home Depot house brand. They can be made by anyone, and it frequently changes. The Cree CR6 was offered as an Ecosmart for years, then they changed to the "contractor series" low-CRI higher-wattage version of the CR6, and more recently it became sourced from Lighting Science and others. The Cree DR4/DR6 currently sold at HD under Cree's own brand name in the dark blue boxes.

We are building our own home, and for the lighting we chose to use 6" cans from HD for the main ceilings, and 4" to accent a ceiling area, and small closet like rooms. I think that decision was easily made if you figure out where the lights would be on your plan. Each size will need different spacing for the same coverage, distance from walls; etc. That will tell you which size fits better. Other than that 4" costs more in my area for housings and lights plus needing more did not seem like an upcharge that I got my moneys worth.
I second the Feit lights. We have Feit led retrofit lights in daylight color (5,000k) ordered though amazon. I cannot recommend them enough. The color is the same color as daylight coming in the windows. Such an improvement! They are simple to install too.

Carol,

A Caseta dimmer with the accompanying pico remote costs ~$60. To control multiple circuits simultaneously from a smart phone/ computer/ tablet a hub is also required(eg Staples hub ~ $80. The Lutron caseta hub costs ~$120). Then you have to define the scene to be run when a button is pressed ...

Assuming that each room has 2 sets of lights, 2 master switches per room. No need to run wires for a 3 way circuit. People are finding the Caseta cheaper and more convenient than having regular multiway circuits installed.

Total of 6 switches and a hub
$360 + $80

David,

That's incredibly inexpensive. You referenced earlier the Lutron RadioRA2. It definitely looks promising via the Lutron website - just curious if you have a ballpark cost estimate on a system like that? I did a search of Lutron RA2 certified installers on their site and will be contacting several - but is this something that a savvy homeowners could do or is it strictly proprietary where they control distribution/installation?

Thanks!

Andrew

I'm on my way to CostCo to confirm where they carry the new upgraded LEDRT4/927 model with the 94+ CRI or the older LEDR4/827 model that is rebranded from Feit but I want to let everyone on this thread know I just posted my proposed electrical layout from the Electrician (including his proposal line item quote if you're curious).

I didn't want to hi-jack this thread with an off-topic subject like "Hey, review my electrical plan!" so here's the link. And I'll let everyone know what I find out about CostCo.

Thread Link Here:

Here is a link that might be useful: Please Review My Lighting Plan

Davidtay and Andrew,

Still trying to get my head around these lighting controls. I think the Lutron RadioRA2 is what we prefer. Please help me understand what we would need to buy for each main room (let us assume there is at least a 3 way switch in each room and some have 4 way). In other words, our open concept house will have at least 2 spots in each room where lights can be turned on and off. Presently, the plan was to have multiple switches in each location (which I hate do to confusion of which switch operates which circuit).

So, with the above preamble, what do I need to buy for say one room with a 3 way switch (two locations at different entries where lights can be controlled)? In that room let us assume there are 3 circuits needing to be controlled (say dining room chandy, mood lights and say pot lights all on a different circuit and all we desire the control to dim as needed).

If you could help me understand what I need to buy for one room with the Lutron RadioRA2 scene control, I could then figure out what I would need to buy to have similar scene controls in all the main rooms (kitchen, great room, dining room and media room).

Any general guidance on pricing of necessary products for the above scenarios?

If these scene controls are controlled wirelessly, what if any in wall wiring do we need to ensure is in place before closing the walls? Do we need to hire a contractor to commission these scene controls or can they be DIY installed (DH is handy/knowledgeable enough to do some of our wiring).

Do the scene controls in a room eliminate the need to have the multiple groups of light switches (or are they in addition to the multiple switches)? In other words, if we have 3 circuits needing to be controlled in a room, do we have one Lutron scene control beside a 3 gang regular light switch (room for 4 light boxes)?

Sorry for all the questions -- even if you can answer some of them I would be very grateful. Also, if you can point me in the direction of where we can learn the nitty gritty of what needs to be bought and how to install these scene controls that would be very helpful. We do not have the budget to hire out the whole install and design so have to find a way to learn what needs to be done and how to do it.

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: Lutron scene control we prefer

Okay, so I think I found out one way to learn more about controls. Here is a link in case anyone else is interested in the subject. I still would love to have your input to my above questions though. See free education tab on right of linked website.

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: Lighting Control Association -- Education Express

Here is another option (aside from Lutron) that offers scene controls for lighting control. Has anyone had any experience with this company's products? It seems to use low voltage wiring (although I need to read product details more).

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: Watt stopper scene control

Sorry, but I should have posted my recent questions in a separate thread, so all who are seeking info on light controls might find the info they need. So I have started a new thread, and have cut and pasted the last few posts to the new thread. Please consider responding to my new thread if you want to add to the subject of lighting controls.

Of course if your info relates to LED light bulbs in line with the original topic then please post away.

Carol

Carol,

Great questions above as I'm trying to wrap my head around the same thing. Looking forward to someone who can answer your "set-up" answers to manage the several light systems you referenced in your example. Thanks

Andrew

Andrew, if you're open to new lighting styles, there is TrueGroove from Phillips which is a linear led recessed lighting fixture. There are similar products from other manufacturers, but support could be better from Phillips.

TrueGroove product description

Regarding Control4, I have a fairly extensive system in my house. I like it and I do some pretty complex lighting control with it. However, I don't think it would be my first recommendation if lighting control is your primary interest. We got into it for the entertainment controls, and added on lighting "because we could." My dealer is great, but having to get a dealer involved every time you want to add a component is a real hassle.

Thanks sch9171 for the feedback on Control4. Do you think the RadioRa2 would be a better option if lighting control was your primary interest?

Carol,

Each time you want to add a component or change something in a setup (i.e. - change the programming), as long as a 3rd party is involved, things become complicated.

If you're looking for a professionally installed system whether it be Control4 or RadioRA2 dealers, expect a significant outlay.