"I follow the EB recommendations and mix 1/4 cup of hydrated lime with a gallon of water"

Just a question for you. Was it really slaked lime that you added??

If so, the pH is sky-high and material caustic which would explain your plants' demise - no remedy except to wait it out and see unless you can bring down the pH which is probably not practical at this point.

They probably meant agricultural lime, which is relatively inert calcium carbonate and not as reactive.

Cheers

PC

I used hydrated lime...same as I do every year -- though this time I used a 1/3 cup measuring cup and eyeballed it so it was not quite full. The only thing I didn't do was add more water to completely fill the Earthbox reservoir after adding the gallon of the hydrated lime mixture. I'm thinking that might the reason for my problems. Perhaps the boxes were low on water at the time and which might have made the mixture too concentrated. I can't remember if I've added more water to the boxes after adding the hydrated lime in the past. I've always used that 1/4 c per gallon mixture, which is what Earthbox recommends.

"I'm thinking that might the reason for my problems. Perhaps the boxes
were low on water at the time and which might have made the mixture too
concentrated. I can't remember if I've added more water to the boxes
after adding the hydrated lime in the past. I've always used that 1/4 c
per gallon mixture, which is what Earthbox recommends."

Slaked lime is caustic and I think you have said correctly what happened. I doubt Earthbox recommends adding slaked lime, though I would understand if they suggested trying it if dolomitic lime failed to bring the pH in line. Did you add dolomitic lime in advance of planting, which I hope is their real recommendation? Even if you didn't, it would be easy to hurt the plants without doing this carefully in a little container. Sometimes I add nitric acid to my plants. Nitric acid can burn a hole in my hand, so much care is needed to prepare the right concentration and keep wide pH swings in check. I admit to never using slaked lime in a container, but I have used potassium hydroxide and it is even more caustic if not properly diluted.

Cheers

PC

Earthbox recommends using Dolomite or Agricultural Lime when you plant and hydrated lime if you experience blossom end rot. Here are their instructions (from the Earthbox web site):

"If you notice dark/ black, rotting spots on newly set fruit, simply pick those off and discard. Mix ¼ cup of hydrated lime (or pickling lime) with 1 gallon of water and add to the reservoir via the water fill tube. Do this just 1 time only. It will take a couple days, but this will cure the BER. In that time, you may still see some affected fruit, so just pick those off. Picking them off will ensure the plant puts its energy into producing good fruit, rather than wasting energy on a rotted fruit that can't be consumed."

I used the same product that I'd used in previous years (same bag, in fact). The only thing I didn't do was make sure the reservoir was completely full after I added the gallon of hydrated lime mixture. The Earthbox holds 3 gallons of water, so if it happened to be very low at the time, it's possible that the gallon of "lime water" may have been far more concentrated. Had I made sure that the reservoir was completely full, it probably would have diluted it further.

The curious thing, though is that I've seen recommendations from other Earthbox users to add a Full cup of hydrated lime to a gallon of water. So if people are doing that with success, it makes me wonder how a little over 1/4 cup per gallon would have harmed my plants. This is the first time I've experienced such a problem...and I've been doing it this way for a good 7-8 years...but perhaps my boxes were full prior to adding the lime solution in previous years.

Do you think there's a chance the plants might generate new growth since there's still plenty of growing season left? Or is the damage irreversible? Thanks again for any help!!

- Rod

Well I am not familiar with Earthbox and hydroponics at all. But I think PC said it right : You raised the pH too much. Maybe it was already in the upper range before adding lime.

Get some litmus paper and do a pH test. It should give you a ball park number.Then maybe use something like sulfur or vinegar to bring down the pH.

For calcium supplement during the season I make "Calcium Acetate" by adding vinegar to dolomitic lime or eggshell. Then calcium is in ionic ( Ca++) form readily available for plants uptake. . There are calcium supplement in liquid, ionic form that you might want to look into it. Lime, in my opinion is to increase pH. That is why it is added to soil less potting mix before plant out, to bring the pH of things like peat moss and pine bark up slightly.

Sey

Rod, I'm sorry to hear about what happened. It is possible the plants will bounce back depending on how harsh their poor roots got hit, which as you correctly state will depend on how high the ratio of water:hydrated lime started out with. I personally am uncomfortable with the Earthbox suggestion (it is a remedy, not a recommendation for normal growing per what you posted), so I'd do garden lime in the future to avoid a recurrence ... and I can't explain what the other users are thinking with cupfulls of Calcium oxide, unless they are actually dealing with a less caustic version (Ca(OH)2 or CaCO3, etc.). If you look up the pH of hydrated lime you will see it is 12.3 when saturated and this is caustic and will cause permanent damage if the exposure is direct. Tomatoes really can't survive well much above pH 8. So we are stuck wondering about how harshly they were hit plus how basic ("alkaline") the whole Box ended up. That is what makes it impossible to compare one case to another since it depends on the "initial conditions" of how "alkaline" you are. I use the word alkaline here loosely since that is what others call what is technically properly called "basic", though alkalinity is related in the sense we don't know how well the soil buffered or neutralized the added slaked lime.

What you are seeing besides potential caustic burn (damage) is an elevated pH causing nutrient lockout, especially that of iron, and to a lesser extent, probably nitrogen. If you happen to have a little ammonium sulfate sitting around, now would be a good time to add it (20-0-0). I'd put in 10-15 ppm which would be just a gram, not more, into a gallon and then fill the 3 gallons this time! That will increase Nitrogen availability instantly to the plant, and possibly somewhat drop the pH, but it is only a guess. I would not worry about fixing the BER anymore since the plants seem to indicate the pH is already too high and there is plenty of Calcium in there! Messing with these ratios is shooting in the dark, and as you saw adding harsh chemicals can cause damage, but I don't think there is much to loose if you don't have plans to otherwise test (pH, ppm N, ppm P, ppm ppm K, ppm Ca, etc).

Hope that helps a little, or at least doesn't hurt

PC

If i had to guess you are probably watering them too often. Why do you think they arent getting enough water? If my plants cant get enough water from roots to support them its always because of a sudden increase in temps like 67s average highs to mid 80s 90s. I give them a little shade from the midday sun for a couple days until they are rejuvenated. Less sun beating on them lowers the required water

Rod, I had a similar experience a couple of years ago. Dont recall details of what exactly caused my mistake or whatever with lime but the plants eventually recovered. Slowly. I did a lot of flushing though.

this year I made a mistake and put Roma into EarthBox instead of Beefsteak. I t is plagued by BER. I decided not to use the recommended by EartBox remedy remembering the disaster a few years ago.

some varietis just cannot be grown in EB. My Roma inground seldom have BER.

i am using "snack" this year too - 1 tsp Calsium Nitrate once a week. Supposedly should help to overcome BER. Dont help with Roma.

beefsteak, Black Krim, glasier - no BER

zarnitsa, roma - BER

all in EB, watered and giving weekly "snack"

flush the boxes, several times

"Slowly. I did a lot of flushing though...flush the boxes, several times"

This assumes that the pH hasn't recovered, but the damage was applied a week ago and it has been several days and Rod has already "flooded" plenty:

("But I've been flooding the earthbox with water the last 3-4 days in hopes. ")

so it is likely passed by now and I don't know the sort of fertilizer in there, but more flushing will remove the available calcium that may have been needed in the first place, plus any nutrients that are soluble. The problem at this point is you need to know the soil/mix pH or you are just making stabs at whether continuing high pH is the problem or if the the roots have been damaged and not able to assimilate fertilizers due to the damage already inflicted. Without further knowledge I wouldn't continue flooding more than already done since that also will continue to stress the plants and possibly contribute to rot, depending on if the water is just going through the tube or being applied by soaking medium itself. I'd also watch to see any wilt and if the water consumption dropped a lot, to get a handle on how far gone the root might be. The comment,

"It almost looks like the plants are no longer capable of taking in the
amount of water they need. It's almost like they're dying of thirst."

where the OP sort of answered that already though, and it didn't sound good, and it really sounded to me that he has made all the visual observations and been really good at observing and summarizing what happened, and acting after the fact. Recovery if it does happen will be case by case, and in this case the plants apparently are fruiting which added to the stresses that may be overcome, and removing any good fruits left growing is an option as much as it might defeat the purpose. I agree with tigrikt that recovery would be slow if it happened at all, which doesn't sound promising, and the plants would be set back significantly ... so it depends on how much time is left in the season, but we'll know more about recovery that in the next few days since that is the hump they need to clear.

Cheers

PC

Earthbox is semi-hydroponics system.

"Earthbox is semi-hydroponics system."

Earthbox is not like a deep water culture which is being aerated continuously. It is a bottom fed passive wicking system into a typical soil/mix. Well designed or not, depending on the extension and size of the roots, and the composition of the mix, root/soil water retention can increase when flooding, which has already been done for 3-4 days, so I see no reason to continue. However if you want to go down that path, use distilled water (gallons are available from the supermarket) on your next fill one more time to make everyone happy. The distilled water will have 2-3 times the capacity, and act faster to bring down pH/concentrations of whatever soluble things are in there, so you only need to do it once.

Cheers

PC

Thank you everyone for your comments & suggestions. I think I'll ride it out for another 7-10 days and see what happens. Several of the Earthboxes look like they may make it -- as the stalks feel moister and the still-green fruit rock-hard, as they should be. But the majority of the plants are looking like it may only be a matter of time. Time will tell. I'll post a follow-up in a week or two to let everyone know the outcome.

For those unfamiliar with how the Earthbox works, there's a fill tube that goes into a 3 gallon reservoir, which wicks up moisture into the growing medium (planting mix). There's an escape hole, so you never can over-water...once the resevoir is full, any additional water pours out the hole at the bottom of the box. Since there's a constant supply of water, the growing medium always stays moist, but not saturated. This constant supply of moisture is somewhat counter-intuitive to the traditional approach of infrequent but deep watering. I attend a tomato growing class every year at our local nursery and the person giving the class always says that keeping tomato roots constantly moist shouldn't work...but for whatever reason it does.

I started out with 2 Earthboxes about 7-8 years ago and have gradually purchased more. I now have 14 boxes (you can get 2 tomato plants or 6 pepper plants in each box). I'm using 11 of them for tomatoes, so 22 different heirloom tomato varieties.

"I attend a tomato growing class every year at our local nursery and the
person giving the class always says that keeping tomato roots constantly
moist shouldn't work...but for whatever reason it does."

The key is in the soil mix you are using. I don't know if EB has a standardized one or if users or you make their own which I thought they did, from coconut coir and adding their own additional ingredients.

When you are told you can't over-water, that applies when the system is working as it was designed to do on paper. That isn't always the case. For example, I know some people add extra perlite to their to their mix in SWCs. Whether you have the best mix or not also can depend on your climate, temperature and humidity. It has to do with the amount of water retention the mix has.

Put simply, there is a sweet spot and not everyone hits it in their SWC but most don't notice if they are off unless it becomes a problem. Other aspects of what can mess up EB water/air ratios in the mix is if roots grow enough to slow or partially block water flow through the overflow. Really there are so many factors that come into play. Having a big air gap under the plants is also more helpful for aeration. Air gaps are smaller when the res is full, so this is another minor reason but all things could count. Another consideration is whether roots and/or mix has settled/grown to the bottom to form an aquiclude of sorts which maintains higher saturation. I'm only putting these as examples. Also "flooding" means you applied the water directly to the mix from above in the original explanation, and not through the tube, since it "can't be over-watered" which means no flood :-) That can make a difference, too depending on the retention of the mix.

Cheers

PC

I usually use a bagged planting mix from the local nursery (their own "custom mix"), which contains a variety of ingredients (peat, redwood, bat guano, etc.). Before I plant my tomatoes, I usually empty the box from the winter plantings and mix some fresh planting mix with what I took out of the boxes in a large garbage can and then I refill the Earthboxes. I add 1# of dolomite, and the recommended amount of fertilizer, acording to EB's instructions. I don't use their product; I just get a box of GrowMore dolomite and GreenAll vegetable fertilizer at the nursery. I didn't "flood" the soil directly....I just continually added fresh water through the fill tube in an attempt to dilute the hydrated lime solution (the soil is covered by a plastic cover, which is part of the Earthbox system).

"continually added fresh water through the fill tube in an attempt to
dilute the hydrated lime solution (the soil is covered by a plastic
cover, which is part of the Earthbox system)."

OK, I get it. Since I'm a DIYer who reads but still won't follow directions (and have no patience for being on tour buses and the like LOL), removing the cover is something I wouldn't think twice about to get rid of the excess. But a single top flood if we could turn back the clock would have addressed the problem much more effectively. More importantly, I think it may also hold a clue for you to re-enforce your original thoughts on what happened when you didn't quickly refill with the balance of water. You'd wick up the let's say 2x concentrated solution, which you already worried about ... but if the top had somewhat dried, you'd also wick up more total volume ... we are not dealing with a gas tank, but rather a sponge. Now you are slowly removing it since there will be a concentration gradient through the small wicks and what is above stays (and this might be the situation that tigrikt was thinking and helping you with too).

"I usually use a bagged planting mix from the local nursery (their own
"custom mix"), which contains a variety of ingredients (peat, redwood,
bat guano, etc.)."

tigrikt could comment better than I on this one if they are an actual EB user in your sort of climate. I'm inclined to think you have bad advice from the nursery on the soil, if there is nothing in there to cut back on the sponginess of the peat - like perlite. Redwood? perhaps you mean redwood bark? Big difference there. I'm not up on shredded redwood wood, but I do recall Dr. Gericke had some issues with it, as being somewhat acidic at least, though as a composted ingredient it would probably be good. Either way these things seem to add up to high acid (hurts calcium uptake) and high water retention - outside the sweet spot. I am assuming a lot of things online so it is more of the concern I'd check on, and recommend you learn more about the properties of soils. I understand you've grown this way for years, with reasonable results, so I'm just suggesting you go to the next level now and experiment a little with your soil mix's water retention with something as simple as some added perlite in a few Boxes if you want to take it slowly.

Sey has been experimenting with a mix in containers promoted by tapla, and probably could add a few thoughts on the soil if he's still following the thread.

Cheers

PC

edit: maybe the cover is not removable, and I assume it is. If that's the case, I'm sure a DIYer could experiment with removable covers, which I guess is going against the EB concept of set it and forget it, so it will depend on the complexity you feel is appropriate for your situation. One difference between my containers and yours is that I use a lighter mix uncovered and depend on the rain to naturally flush with pure rainwater (free distilled water). It helps keep accumulation or any errors with fertilizer supplements in check, but I enjoy supplementing with fertilizers so that is part of my growing strategy.

Cover is removable. But there is a fertilizer strip on the top covered with soiless mix and then plastic cover. So flooding from the top has to be done on the corners making sure that fertlizer strip is not affected too much.

we dont use tapla suggestions on soiless mix in EB.

i use and re-use promix

Rod, I see you have already posted on Eartbox forum too. Hopefully GardenDoc could see your post soon and give a good answer.

"we dont use tapla suggestions on soiless mix in EB"

tigrikt, Study up on retention and oxygenation of the mix as well. The damage is already done and the high retention properties of the soil the main issue at this point. Nobody suggested using tapla's mix. The suggestion was to brush up on soil characteristics, and to understand what an addition of perlite would do to the present soil, for example. That will
improve your ability as a grower in both organic, inorganic and everything inbetween systems, since there are no one size fits all solutions. Study up on the "3:2:1" while you are at it and compare the benefits of the two. Then compare that to your own; think about the conditions of the Box and the weather and try to put it all together to get a better idea of what it is like to be a root buried in the Box.

If GardenDoc is an expert, and has another opinion better that flooding once with DW water and adding a gram of Ammonium sulfate to the res, please come back and share it as though we can disagree about methods, we are all here to learn and have taking a keen interest in the success of these plants and learning to be better growers ourselves. It is the reward of participating in the forum :-)

Cheers

PC

Wish I would've posted here the moment I noticed a problem. I posted on the Earthbox forum, but so far no activity there. Lots of good and very technical info here. At this point, I think what's done is done. Probably too late to reverse the initial damage. I thinned out all the dead/yellow leaves and the still unripened but dry/soft-looking fruit along with the branches that clearly had lost their structural integrity. So hopefully the roof systems have enough oomph in them to generate new growth. I usually pull my tomatoes around Halloween, so maybe the plants that weren't as hard-hit will stabilize shortly and maybe those that I thinned out heavily will sprout new growth and give me a decent late summer/early fall harvest. I'll post a followup in a week or so to let everyone know whether my plants were able to stave off the grim reaper.

Next year I may stay away from hydrated lime altogether. A friend of mine just tried crushed Tums in a jug of water to offset blossom end rot and said that so far, his plants seem to be doing fine. Anyone ever tried that? I've heard of ground up eggshells, too.

Im unfamiliar with the EB system, you might ask around and experiment with different types of tomatoes if you aren't already. Some type of tomatoes might just not work in that type of system, or in your area, or just in your backyard specifically. Maybe try raising them higher off the ground so there is better airflow. Try to keep them away from the grsss. Are the boxes themselves shaded, or do they get pretty hot? Try making your own mix next time and keep it simple. The potting soil they have at the nursery here is pretty good stuff, but it holds moisture forever, Im not sure what would work best in a wicking system. In order for a wicking system to work the soil at the top has to remain moist. Some heavier mixes might be good at retaining moisture but not as good at allowing water to wick up. I prefer the taste you get from the Earth, my stuff in containers gives heavy yields but the flavor just isnt the same. Amd

Hydrated lime is dangerous stuff. Dissolved hydrated lime can raise pH to about 12.5! Lime, on the other hand, can only raise pH to about 8.2. You should not over-apply either, but over-application of lime is not a disaster. Over-application of hydrated lime is...

After seeing all these comments, I'm surprised Earthbox recommends it as the primary solution to BER. I just figured it was some ordinary gardening product. Had no idea it was so caustic. I probably should've been wearing goggles when I was mixing it in the past. I just casually put it through a funnel into a 1 gal jug, filled it with water and poured it into the EB fill tube. While filling it, there was plenty of dust from the lime swirling around in the air where I was working. I think I'll be looking for an alternate means of controlling BER in my Earthboxes in the future. I appreciate all the helpful comments.

It's been about two weeks since my original post and I think the worst is over. Some of the plants seem to have stabilized and the remaining stalks on those plants are again moist, rigid and standing upright. I've stripped about 1/3 of the plants almost bare, to where they look like Charlie Brown's Xmas tree -- just a few long limbs with a little fruit. But the other 2/3 of the plants still have quite a bit of foliage and look they may have survived the dreaded lime monster. Now I'm waiting to see if new growth emerges and new flowers start to appear.

The planting mix that I use is from a local Bay Area nursery chain (Navlet's). The bag says it has forest humus, peat moss, chicken manure, earthworm castings, bat guano, kelp meal, alfalfa meal, oyster shell and dolomite limes...though not sure in what percentages. The description of their planting mix on their web site says: "This formulation of peat moss, worm castings, oyster shell and dolomite limes, along with other critical sources of nutrients and soil conditioners, is based on more than a century of working with Bay Area soils."

Next year, I may avoid Earthbox's recommended application of 1/4 cup hydrated lime in a gallon of water when BER first appears. Or, I may try it in just one Earthbox, fill the reservoir completely and wait 3-4 days to see if any similar ill effects arise. If so, I'll ditch the hydrated lime altogether for the other Earthboxes and will look for a less caustic calcium substitute.

This has definitely been a learning experience!

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WOW u used way way too much! I dilute 2 tablespoons in 500 ml of water as my base solution, then leave it for at least 24hrs. After that use a ph meter then add drops of the lime solution per litres of water...You must have fried those tomatoes!! If the phone is too high then you can use lemon juice as a buffer to bring it to the desired level before using.

The thread is 4 years old :-/