in my MI ... in my area ... i can do either.. with about the same result ...

ken

a second thought ... if i bought some .. lets say oak ... which prefers spring ... and i bought it in summer.. and held it until fall ...

it would have much longer odds... being planted ... as compared to wintering it over in a pot ...

so in this case.. its might not be about what the plant might prefer ... it should fear my winter care level.. lol ...

ken

Texas lives oaks should always be planted in the Spring in marginal zones 6b-7a

For instance, I've heard tupelo, pawpaw, and magnolia prefer being planted in the Spring to the Fall.

I personally have never had any luck getting American Persimmon to take in the Spring. I've since heard that bare root trees ordered in Spring and shipped to northern zones were often dig up some time ago and kept in a refrigerator to keep them dormant, which most trees are fine with...but not, apparently, American Persimmon.

On the other hand, if a smaller nursery in the South DOESN'T do this, they end up digging up trees before they break dormancy in the Spring, and sending them to your northern address when your soil is still frozen or too muddy to work.

Can anyone else think of a plant that definitely prefers Fall planting?

Much of the answer to this query lies in location. what works in Houston will very likely not resemble what works in Green Bay. So, as I am quite near the latter city, we don't do well with fleshy-rooted species in fall, such items as Magnoliacea, tulip tree, rubrum and freemanii maples, and a few others. But that's for here, where winter is a real challenge for plant life, and human life, I may as well add!

+oM

Here in New England, we tend to have short springs with warm or hot air and cold wet soil. Fall tends to have cooler air and warmer soil, with relatively even moisture. I find my plants do best planted in fall, even things like evergreens that are normally not recommended to be planted in the fall.

My experience tells me there are a few things that don't like fall transplanting, but beyond that, most things do.

I recently read a report about establishment of nut orchards using fall planting that indicated that for the nut species (which tend to be things that people lump as spring planting), there was at least no down side to fall planting.

Don't transplant red oak in the fall. If it's dug and has been sitting in a rootball, it's fine to take home, but don't go dig one and move it. Magnolia has been the same in my experience, but given that most of my experience has been north of Minneapolis, it's also not something I experimented with a lot as far as pushing the late end of the year.

In general, trees that would be described as having a fleshy root system would be something to avoid transplanting in the fall. Again, it's one thing to visit a garden center and take one home that's been sitting since spring, but not to go dig one.

Where I do have experience is in planting bare root trees in the fall. Once we get past labor day, I start scheduling the trucks. I'll plant until ground freeze. There are a couple of oaks I avoid, and a few fleshy-rooted trees, but after doing this for a few years, I'd rather plant bare root trees in the fall than any other time of the year.

This year will be a down year for me. I'll only plant about 4000 bareroot trees this fall, from now until ground freeze. Largest will be 2" crabs and maples, smallest will be some 6', but in general, my preference is for 1" to 1 1/4", everything in the landscape, exceptions noted above.

The biggest challenge I have in doing this is the end of the season...if ambient air temps are too cold, I'm not planting. Ground freeze is the end of the season, but freezing air on those fine root hairs will kill the plants faster than anything else. So at the end of the season, there are some short days, and some days I don't work at all...but so far (knock on wood), I haven't had to winter any stock that couldn't get planted. I have gone, blast it all anyway, I could have planted another load...but if I could guess the weather that well, I'd put my talents towards more rewarding activities.

I have a contact in Ohio that specializes in production of larger bareroot trees for planting. By larger, I'm talking 4" diameter, and he has a full catalog...oaks included. That's the part that gets me...4" bareroot bur oak. It's my goal to have a job where I can try this out.

Yeah, that's exceptional in my experience as well-a 4 inch caliper bare-root oak. I forgot to mention oaks and I "think" we plant them mostly in spring here in WI. I hesitate to say more because quite honestly, I don't get involved in our main tree-planting program here at my job much anymore. Tree pods in stormwater sites-sure..I do lots of those, but that's been all spring-planted conifers so far.

+oM

I've been using state nurseries and county conservation sales, which only ship in the Spring. Also annual native plant sales, which are also in the Spring. Since work has gotten busy in Spring the last couple years, I have more planting the I hve time to do. In the past I would spend Fall planting things I got on sale at the Garden in the Woods end of season sale and the Lowes bargain bin, but neither seem very good this year. And I pretty much completed Project Bulb.

Seems like everyone acts like gardening time is over in September, even though that is a better time of year for some things then August.

I was considering planting some tupelo and paw paw, but both are things they say prefer Spring planting. Also want to plant bare root sassafras and persimmon, but I haven't had much luck with those those.

"Seems like everyone acts like gardening time is over in September, even
though that is a better time of year for some things then August."

Not in my world!! After some midsummer lulls, things start ramping up again in September. In fact, I am often busier now (and until around Thanksgiving) than I am in in April and May. The only "end of season" sales we have at local nurseries are for annuals. In fact, many bring in fresh nursery stock expressly for the fall planting season. The only factor that limits what can be planted when in my area is availability.

I'm two zones north of you. The big box stores just beginning to switch to Halloween mode. Although admittedly the big sales haven't started yet.

"I'm two zones north of you."

You are two zones colder than me but I am quite a bit further north than you :-) In fact, I am further north than most of the US gardening public! It's somewhat misleading to assume winter hardiness zones align with the compass - colder further north and warmer further south. Seems logical to assume that but coastal and/or continental influences can have a significant impact.

Reminds me of an earlier conversation!

+oM

Smaller deciduous bareroots I'd wait till spring to plant in zones 5-6. Larger 3-5' bareroots & deciduous I'd feel fairly comfortable planting during fall.

And I'd have to agree with Tornado's perspective of hardiness of each given plant. For me it's not heat tolerance but cold tolerance/hardiness.

Dax

waynedanielson: What oaks don't you plant in the Fall, and what ones do you?

Would sassafras do well in the Fall?

Can anyone come up with a list of species that do particularly well with Fall planting?

I would say avoid Nyssa in fall at all costs. Considering the first-year-in-the-ground winter dieback that seems so common even among SPRING planted blackgums, Fall probably won't work.

I would avoid Sassafras at all costs as well. It's known not to transplant well from containers to begin with, or from dug plants in the wild.

Dax

gardener365: I've tried to transplant Sassafras in the Spring without success. I was actually considering ordering some to try planting in the Fall. As it stands my fall order was bare root American Persimmon and Sassafras. I'm holding off on the tupelo until Spring. I was planning on getting hawthorn and maple from county conservation sales and state nurseries that unfortunately only sell in Spring.

Any other suggested changes to my Fall tree order?

I don't have experience with persimmon. I have seedlings in pots but I always plant in the spring no matter what it is (minor exceptions.)

Sassafras took me several tries to get one established. Mine were dug in the spring in IL not far south from me and then potted to #1's and given to me in fall (mid-October.) Quite honestly Ed, after a try or two of fall planting, I now have a sassafras growing. There is however a lot of conversation about the difficulty of establishing a transplanted (potted/dug) sassafras and the same goes with Blackgum.

Maples and hawthornes would be just fine to plant during fall. Anything you might plant this fall, you should get them in the ground asap to give them a few weeks advantage. And mulch is a must, of course... as is keeping the roots moist all the way up until your ground freezes.

Dax

So the successful Sassasfras tries were planted in the Fall?
Unfortunately, the maple and hawthorn were things I was planning to buy cheaply at state and county plant sales, which were in the Spring.

I'm a zone warmer then you, and just had a weird September heat wave.

We had a heat wave too. Heat indexes at 100 within the last 7 days and 95-98. Warming up again beginning Tuesday into the 80's. But... that is IL. It's not rare here.

I go to a plant exchange mid-Oct. annually. So I planted Sassafras a couple times after I returned home. I also planted Carolina buckthorn three times (Rhamnus/Frangula caroliniana) and I've lost that son-of-a-gun every time.

We already did our plant exchange this year due to the International Oak Society meeting being held on our usual date. This time I'm overwinterting a Rhamnus caroliniana to plant, next-spring.

Dax

@ edlincoln(6A)

Halloween? Local HD was prepping for christmas!

IIRC, pawpaw is spring only just because of the taproot that needs to be established.

I tend to avoid oaks related to red oak with pointy leaves...so black oak is out, but I have no problems planting the weed known as pin oak any time of the year...I mean, the majestic shade tree, the pin oak.

Often, when asking questions like this, the answers tend to be arrived at by consensus. If multiple people provide similar answers, it's safe to say that's the answer. So if you re-read the posts, how many people have had success planting bare-root sassafras in the fall? How many have had success planting container grown? If you can't parse the difference in the answers, dig deeper. Sometimes, that means you have to try. The nature of trying means sometimes you fail...and in doing so, you have learned something you could not possibly learn any other way.

Ruppert Nursery linkRuppert Nursery is a dominant player in my state. They furnish large B&B material for the Atlantic Seaboard. That link has a great explanation regarding fall digging. Winter dehydration through foliage and thin bark is a great concern.

I really hate it when I read here someone recommending to newbie posters Always buy BR and always buy small. Scroll past that "one size fits all" advice. There are many concerns about planting small, BR trees in the fall. One consideration is lack of availability. I want the OP to get back with us and assure us that he is not tempted to order pawpaw, sassafras & persimmon from Tennessee. If you are that garbage is cheap, BR and wild-collected.

If you are having trouble digging sassafras this topic has been discussed here ad nauseam.

The suckers of sassafras do not have an independent root system and will likely fail. That's why propagators are always on the look out for seed. Individual seedling plugs, grown on in containers are easily transplanted.

Yes, but this very list suggests that what works in say, Texas, is identical to what would work in Maine. Is that not "one size fits all"?

+om

Generally speaking I find I have the best luck with small potted trees planted in the fall. Potted just gives you way more flexibility in planting time...If you are busy, you can leave a potted tree on your deck until you have time to plant it.

My "take away" from this thread was to hold off on planting the tupelo, oak, pawpaw, and black gum. I'm getting mixed messages about sassafras...I got advice to avoid Fall, but also someone said she successfully planted in Fall.

Both the bare root sassafras I planted in the Spring and the potted sassafras I got from a local native plant society and planted in the Fall died. The bare root American Persimmon I got from the county in the Spring all died, but the potted one I got from the native plant society and planted in the Fall is doing great. I just ordered some bare root American Persimmon and sassafras from Cold Stream Farm. I am not currently contemplating buying small bare root trees from
Tennessee...although I did buy some bare root sassafras from that state
in the past. I've learned there are a lot of issues ordering trees from a climate zone south of you.

I'm not so much looking for a list of trees NOT to plant in the fall as a list of things that prefer it...For instance, I've never gotten a Spring planted American Persimmon to survive. There must be other trees like that.

So...take the catalogue of nursery stock...basically, every woody plant from a to z...remove the list of plants to avoid...and you have the list you desire. If you really want to type it out, go right ahead.

As a side note, take the list of plants to avoid in the fall, compare to a list of plants that are recommended to be sweated if handled bareroot. Draw your own conclusion.

So...you ask about fall planting, and then ask about some of the hardest, most difficult to transplant plants out there. Some are just harder. If you figure out how to idiot proof those species, you might not get millions out of it, but you'll get a certain amount of fame if not some degree of fortune. You have my sincerest wishes of good fortune in the endeavor.

There is a difference between "tolerates Fall" and "prefers it". Out of all the woody plants out there, SOME must prefer it.

Am I correct in assuming plants that need to be sweated may benefit from Fall planting? I certainly haven't has luck with Spring...

Interesting twist in this convo-towards the need for "sweating" in some species. So, Johnson's Nursery is one of my state's leading tree nurseries. At a workshop there last week, we discussed the perceived (and real) need for seating in hackberry. Johnson's is real big on root pruning, at multiple points in production. they feel that the heavier root system so produced obviates the need for sweating in such species. According to their head propagator, the problem is simply the lack of sufficient root mass and the resulting low turgor pressure, thus leading to insufficient sap flow to push new bud expansion, etc. Makes sense to me, even f it was wrapped up in what amounted to a testimonial for Johnson's trees. Their claim is that such species-provided from their nursery-do not require this seating process.

+oM

There is significant overlap on the list of plants to avoid digging in the fall and the list of plants recommended to be sweated. It's quite possible the plants recommended to be sweated could benefit from fall planting, but NOT if you dig them in the fall...spring dug b&B, or container.

I can't say as I've heard, or pondered, the question phrased in this way. I can say, I plant more plants in a week than most people do in a lifetime, and my list of plants that prefer fall planting would be as outlined above.

Last winter, I sat in on a presentation about producing maple sugar. My background is horticulture, and before that dairy, so the maple world is new to me. What surprised me was that according to the narrative of the presentation is that just about everything I thought I know about tree biology and seasonal behavior, based on a horticultural education and years of experience in nursery production, was apparently unknown to the post graduate degreed staff of one of the only maple research centers. Which begets a series of questions about how do we know what we think we know when it comes to woody plants, physiology, seasonal behavior, and similar tangents.

Before this morphs, let this be stated...the presentation was from the head of the Proctor Research Center, attached to the U of VT, and was specifically re: the new production system using high density plantings. This was the end result of a experiment supposedly designed to test how sap flowed in trees, specifically sugar maple, in the spring. So how much of the narrative was in telling a story, how much was just people pondering what could be done, and how much was truly unknown, I have no idea. But the idea of sitting in a presentation where people with advanced in plant physiology supposedly didn't know one of the basic things about tree physiology really makes we wonder how we know what we think we know.

The truth is, there is a lot we think we know. No one is going to repeat every experiment on every plant...there may be that many people looking for research projects, but there's not going to be the funding for it. So what we know about this species, based on specific research, is going to be extrapolated.

Which ultimately gets us to the current question, or more specifically, the application of the question in dealing with sassafras and persimmon. Ultimately, I'm not sure the nuts and bolts research has been done. If the answer to the question does exist, it's possibly buried in obscure journals that only exist in the bowels of research institutions. More likely, bits and pieces of the answer are locked away in the brains of individuals such as the head propagator for Johnson's...or Sherman's...or Bailey (yeah, I know the ownership of the two)...or Forrest Keeling...or one of several dozen other nurseries or research centers (specifically avoiding Monrovia...never can get a decent answer out of them unless it's how many they want to sell me).

So at some point, we get to questions that people ask, and it's possible that question has never been asked to the right person before. the right person would be the one who is going to draft a grant proposal that gets approved to do the research. Could this be such a question? Perhaps? That's a topic in and of itself, and the kind of esoteric discussion best held in the rarified air of Colorado...and soon, maybe a state near you.