Joaquin looks to stay well off shore, Ida's remains should stay even further off shore, and the new one whipping up off the Ivory Coast may or may not develop into anything and is ten days out anyway. :-)

I'm going to guess from the Derby City mention that you're near Louisville, Kentucky. While the seeding window looks like it's still open, it's not going to stay that way for long, so I wouldn't delay overmuch. You have time for a fescue or rye, but the KBG might be just a bit dicey even at this point.

Any of the Big Three will feature about the same performance in your locale, but for spreading, nothing beats bluegrass. Bluegrasses are less tolerant of not being watered in summer, but are also happy to go dormant and wait out the bad weather. They'll be back (with minimal to no losses once established) when the weather turns back. Like any other grass, they do require that you water them the first year until establishment. Bluegrasses also require consistent feeding for good performance and spreading.

Fescue and rye are both tolerant of less water, but once they enter dormancy they start to die pretty fast. Leaving holes, as you noted, which also happens when the grasses die due to age, disease, insects, or just to annoy you.

On the winterizer, wait at least a month post seeding. The correct time for winterizer is when the grass stops growing but is still green, which for me here in east central Pennsylvania is around Thanksgiving, give or take a lot. For you, probably very much later. December 15th, plus or minus two weeks, feels like a good initial guess.

morpheuspa - wow - you answered every question and even raised a few. I'm seriously thinking my lawn has never seen any KBG seed and that is the problem ! I've fed organically for years (compost, soybean meal, alfalfa pellets). It would look amazing all spring and summer, but when August rolled around the dry/dead spots would start showing up and I'd reseed. I tried Scott's fall/winter application a couple of times - greened up and looked great and then died out in August - wash-rinse-repeat.

I think your comment said it all with respect to fescue/rye not spreading and not holding up as well as KBG in dry weather or just dying out to 'annoy' me. Yep, only thing missing is a picture of the lawn and my name !

I now think the original grass might have been a blend, thus the sustained, good grass in most of the lawn, but the spots that die every year are the same places I reseed with fescue. Duh.

Thanks for your response and good thoughts on all this. Now when did you say you were coming to help . . . .?

morpheuspa - thank you for all the above info. Most helpful. Wanted to see where else you might be sharing your wisdom on GW and found your Green, green grass of home BlogSpot. I'm in 'garden nerd heaven' ! ! ! :)

You're welcome! Enjoy the blog...you've got, what, seven years of posts to read through? Something like that.

Hope you're still there, morpheuspa, cause I have another question ! Met with the lawn expert of a well respected and established (90 year) garden center today. Took in some pulled up sections of the dead grass, a plug of good grass, some soil as well as some up close and distance shots of the lawn.

He said he could probably rule out grubs since I found none and maybe brown spot, but felt that thatch more than hydrophobic soil was the main issue causing water/nutrients, etc to not get to the roots which were only 1" long in the dead areas.

He knew that the effected lawn was only 6 year old fescue sod, fed organically with a couple of times of Scott's, always cut high with a mulching mower, no pesticides or herbicides, in full sun on a slight slope, always stunning through spring and summer until patchy dying in the same places every August. With all that knowledge, he still said he felt it was a thatch build up that was keeping water from penetrating the soil and that thatch didn't have to be thick to have the lignin create an impenetrable barrier. Made sense.

My question to you is can thatch really build up when lawn is mulch-mowed. The other 3/4 of my lawn in other areas is 40 years old and has never died out in patches - it's also never been thatched in all the years I've lived here - something I attribute to a mulching mower. Crazyl.

While this man could have sold me a bunch of 'cure alls', he basically sent me home to thatch, reseed and water well. He loves organics, but agreed with you about the Scott's or like for fall/winter to build a stonger root system.

So what do you think ~ make sense? Now to find some able bodied soul willing to thatch !

Anything up to a quarter inch of thatch is pretty harmless (it's not like the water sheets off the lawn and goes somewhere else, it has no choice but to fall through to the soil below). More than that and yes, dethatching of some sort is a good idea. Not because it'll shed water, but because it's a perfect place for disease fungi and harmful insects to hang out.

However, thatch is very specifically lignin content--which means stems and dead runners (for grasses that produce runners). Dead leaves don't count nearly as much.

You can get thatch on an organically fed, mulch mowed lawn, but it's not what I'd call common. I have elite bluegrass--the second thatchiest grass out there (Zoysia being #1 by a mile). I have no thatch and you'd be hard-pressed to find much in the way of dead matter under there, except for the recently-shed leaves.

Inspect and see how much you have. There's a homemade spray that might help (it's harmless to you, pets, animals, children, frogs, and so on), but if that fails, it's time to think about dethatching next spring. October really isn't a great time to do it as the lawn doesn't have time to repair the damage before winter. April and September are perfect. But the spray can be used any time you like as it doesn't harm the lawn (quite the opposite, actually).

Glad I checked in with you ~ had no idea this isn't the best time to thatch. Will wait until April and plan on hiring it done unless I have success with the spray thatch remover you mentioned. I'll check into that now that I know it's safe and non-toxic. This really takes the pressure off, too.

Most baffling thing about all this is that the only place this is happening is in the newer lawn area - 2009 fescue sod - front yard (bordered by driveways and sidewalks) was renovated after a huge tree, roots and ivy were removed. Soil was tilled (killed!) and some questionable compost was added at my request. It's just never been the same as the lawn in other areas of the property which is why I've been so careful about 'feeding' the soil and not the grass..

As to the water shedding: Went out today and selected a good test area of 'dead or dying'. I watered a little and watched as the water just ran across the top of the thick, dead stems (lots of them) and other debris and onto the concrete a few feet away.

Then cleared dead area until nothing but dirt was left and watered again. Soaked right in. This tells me that while maybe not technically thatch, something (until it's removed) is keeping water from penetrating the soil and probably causing the grass to die due to drought. Also saves me the 'hydrophobic soil' treatment I was thinking of doing.

Decided to seed all the now bare spots and watered in well. Will add Scott's a couple of times later on and be done for the year. Always planning the next springs' yard and garden work before fall is done, but then that's what we gardener's do - right !

Sure wish I could post progress photos. I have internet speed issues that AT&T can't fix and so my many attempts to load have failed. Maybe someday.

Thanks again for all your help !

Hum. In this case, let's make a little mod to that spray (which will still be harmless).

Spray 4 ounces of blackstrap molasses, 4 oz of any clear shampoo, and 1/4 oz of household ammonia per thousand square feet. Use enough water to thoroughly damp the thatch; you may have to go back and forth a bit to get it to penetrate, but that's enough shampoo that it should work. Just before spraying, feeding over the top heavily with any grain or Milorganite will really help out.

You can substitute any other type of molasses for blackstrap if necessary, but the blackstrap is heavier, has a bit more sulfur and other elements, and a slightly lower simple sugar amount. What type of shampoo doesn't matter. Baby, Suave, White Rain, whatever's cheap. The ammonia is optional but helpful, although unnecessary if you feed heavily--I want to get a little nitrogen in there for the bacteria to work with, they already have enough carbon.

Normally, I'd say repeat monthly, but October is the end of the road on this. November is too cold. You can pick up again once the weather's warm enough for you to be outside working on garden stuff.

I have a huge amount of respect for morpheus' opinions, but we differ when it comes to acceptable levels of dead material at the surface. I dare not call it thatch, but dead nonetheless. At minimum, bag clippings in that area to reduce the buildup & a dethatching rake from Lowe's would help too. Once the soil biology is built up like the 40-year old sections, you'll probably never have to do it again.

Actually, I didn't think of that. A dethatching rake will do far less damage than a powered dethatcher (just don't rake extremely hard). It's terribly hard work regardless, but that can seriously reduce the problem.

I bought a thatch rake and had planned on doing myself (no powered thatcher for me), but after reading and watching Youtubes of how hard it is, I will pass it on to someone more able bodied come spring. Think it is the answer.

Also think another reason these areas seem to die out every year might be due to the way I've reseeded each time. Really too heavy handed, I think. Grass comes up nice and thick, but think it chokes itself out and dies. Maybe?

It certainly doesn't help...and it's one of the reasons I never recommend exceeding the maximum seeding rate.

A consistent thatch problem indicates a problem with the soil biology or soil chemistry. A well-tuned biology can eat thatch as fast as the grass can produce it. However, a poorly chemically balanced soil can't support a strong biology, and any area that's OK on chemistry can still have problems with the biology for many reasons.

Interestingly, one of the ways of damaging the biology so that it has trouble removing thatch is to remove the thatch (but an initial dethatching on a severe problem area certainly won't be an issue). The organisms that eat the thatch don't flourish if they're consistently denied dinner. It's the same as mowing the leaves into your lawn. Done consistently, the biology ramps up to be able to eat huge amounts. But it does require some ramp-up time and the right conditions (which are, fortunately, easy to come by in fall).

I'm confused about a couple of things then. If I can look at an area of healthy grass (95 % of the yard), separate the blades to the bottom and see earth - not thatch, why would I need to thatch?

As well, In the mostly dead areas, there are sometimes slight green sprigs coming out of straw-colored, rather thick bases at the end of the stalk, but I can still see soil even though most of the plant looks dead.

The places where there is nothing but dead matter, there are either clumps straw-looking stems, but I can see dirt or where fine grass blades lie in a mat in a hole. I can scoop the mass out with my fingers and move on the next place, again, leaving bare soil.

You guys have the patience of Job. . . . thank you for hanging in there with me.

>>I'm confused about a couple of things then. If I can look at an area of healthy grass (95 % of the yard), separate the blades to the bottom and see earth - not thatch, why would I need to thatch?

You almost certainly don't. Thatch tends to be a widespread problem across the lawn, not something that happens in just a few small spots.

>>The places where there is nothing but dead matter, there are either clumps straw-looking stems, but I can see dirt or where fine grass blades lie in a mat in a hole. I can scoop the mass out with my fingers and move on the next place, again, leaving bare soil.

You just rang one of my alarm bells. (More than three, actually, but which one's really ringing depends on more information). One, is that always in the same spot? Two, is the grass that grows there (probably best in spring and fall) the same as the grass in the rest of the lawn...and can we have a closeup photo of anything still green in the area, along with wide shots? Three, have you probed a long-bladed screwdriver into the soil to see how easily it penetrates and whether it hits a rock shelf down there?

1. As near as I can tell, the dying out has happened in either the same spots or at least the same general area since the year it was laid - June 2009.

2. Is grass same all over lawn: The sod I requested was a blend of fescues and when in good shape is simply beautiful. Where I had some die out the first September, I reseeded with a product called Trifecta (a blend of fescues) that is sold by a local nursery as a 'top of the line seed'. I have since found data from a Kentucky Ag site stating their findings that what is listed on the Trifecta bag is NOT what is actually in the mix ! Makes me mad to think I might have been reseeding with something that wasn't good quality. Could either be that or my penchant for grossly over-seeding. Ooops.

2: Photos: I would give anything to post photos, but have never been able to get them to load to GW due to a slow and unfixable internet connection. I am able to text and email photos, just not upload to GW. I really think it would help if you could see what I'm talking about. I took pics the other day before going into talk with the lawn guy at a different nursery and he found them helpful.

3. I've only dug in the areas where grass dies, but not deep. We finally got a little rain today, so first thing in the morning I'll head out to check with a screwdriver. Good idea. We did have the entire area tilled in 2009 before sod, so the area should be cleaned of such things, but saying that surely doesn't make it so !

If you have any thoughts about me getting photos to you, please share ! I just tried again and no dice. sigh.

Checked all dead areas with a screwdriver - found no rock, etc. Just nice loose soil. Cleaned up all the dead places down to soil, added compost and some good garden soil, patted in seed and watered. All this on Saturday and have been watering daily. Overall yard is already looking really nice and green which makes me think more and more this is a water issue. Now just hoping the seed sprouts as we have frost and freeze warnings for the weekend. Drat.

This is an update to my own post of a month ago. My yard was in bad shape and so many of you offered great advice. Now 6 weeks later, it is a beautiful deep, rich green and all the bare spots have filled in with new baby grass. I applied soybean meal in early October, a Scott's winterguard application in early November and will do another in December. All this followed by days and days of gentle soaking rains have literally transformed it to springtime fresh.

So, all my whining and worrying - is it brown patch, thatch build-up, cheap seed, lack of nutients - I've come to this conclusion. Drought. Every year it's beautiful until August and then goes downhill as the temps go up and the rainfall is scarce. My goal in 2016 is to follows Dave Hall's lawn watering schedule along with SBM in spring and summer and Scott's in fall and winter.

Thanks again for all the advice - I hope this post will be helpful to others.

Annie (Lincann)

Sounds great! The other thing you can do is embrace the drought, let it shock a bit, water just enough to keep it from dying, and let it bounce back in fall.