Some more pics....

I'm imagining 'Marie Pavie' on either side of this door....

....to be continued.

:-)

~Christopher

Good luck with the exciting project, Christopher. What I can say is that neither FeP nor PHM have the habit you are looking for. They produce long thin scrambling canes that either need to find something to grab to in order to climb or need to be initially coaxed up. I have others of the roses listed but they are too young to comment on. La Mortola, to my understanding, is more of a huge shrub than a climber and will probably also need coaching to climb

La Mortola pic

Some more.....

I think this is the oldest "resident" in terms of "year-born".

But this may be the oldest in terms of "years lived".

...to be continued.

:-)

~Christopher

And here are the last few pics.

:-)

~Christopher

What a fabulous idea, Christopher! There is certainly space to implement it..only wish I could add to your plant collections but doubt if our respective Ag. Depts. would allow it, let alone the prohibitive shipping costs. Wishing you a great success. Melodye.

Nik -- thanks for the info. From the pic you shared of 'La Mortola' it seems it may still work. I don't mind "getting them started" into the trees, since the trunks don't branch until rather high up for the most part. And I think 'Paul's Himalayan Musk' would respond similarly -- both have fishhook-like prickles that seem to be good at snagging onto tree bark. They don't need to be upright if planted out in the open -- just with a general "reach for the sky" attitude when grasping onto a tree, such that once into the branches, they can be basically "left to do as they wish" up there. I think keeping Wichuranas in trees this size would require more attention, since they are more "weeping" in habit. If I get permission, I'd love to have some along that fence.

Ozmelodye -- sorry, I should have specified that sharing would be possible only from US gardeners, but I do appreciate the thought.

Also, since I'll be attempting to propagate things from elsewhere, I may have extras. So if instead of "donating" anyone (in the US) would rather "trade", that would be another possibility. Since I'm still honing my rooting skills, I'll be trying multiples of each variety -- but I'll want, for the most part, only one of each for the cemetery.

:-)

~Christopher

P.S. I already have an order for Spring from Long Ago Roses for the cemetery. They are:

'Baronne Prevost'

'Henri Martin'

'Ispahan'

'Ombree Parfaite'

'Robert Le Diable'

'Rosa Mundi'

"Rush Family Gallica"

"Ruth's German Rose"

'Shailer's Provence'

'The Bishop' -- not sure which "version" Linda has

I don't mind buying some myself, but as I started making this list, I realize I'd be best trying to source as much as possible "from other ways" first.

:-)

~Christopher

Who is going to maintain the roses, you or the caretaker? My guess is the caretaker, so the question is then how much is he willing to do, and how much is he willing to learn to do. OGRs require regular pruning, which can be a PITA. Also, it isn't really a good idea to be zone pushing in somebody else's garden unless they understand the risks involved. Having watched Teas and Chinas at Sailor's Snug Harbor for years, I certainly wouldn't plant any anywhere it wasn't clearly understood that this is a science experiment. That is even more true of climbers.

Regarding what is, and isn't zone pushing, look at the first USDA map. When the current (3rd) map was under discussion, it seemed like that was a good way of getting a handle on what was what in the east. If the second map moved you down a zone, but the third moved you back up, the third was right. If the third moved you up, but the first and second agreed, people were complaining the third was wrong. I sounds confusing, but it all boils down to find the first map and go with that one.

Christopher, on reviewing your list, I can say Veilchenblau would happily go up a tree as it makes stout canes, but it could also be trained along a fence, as the canes are pliable and will arch when young, which is how I grow it. My Phyllis Bide was a misidentified mistake 20 years ago, so ended up in a shady corner in my back yard. Not a vigorous grower for me in that position, so I maintain her as a large shrub, but I note that new canes are quite thin, therefore she may need help getting into a tree until established. She flowers quite happily where she is, though my sunlight conditions may be quite different to those in NJ.

As far as maintenance, initially a combination of both of us. After a few years, I'll be moving away, but I'll be popping down there regularly until then. The caretaker lives in an apartment attached to the church, and he's out there quite often trimming and tending to things. Before living and working here, he worked on a much larger garden somewhere in "mainland" New York, and that encompassed tens of acres, included an orchard and veggie garden, as well as ornamental plants. The details are a bit fuzzy in my head, being as he just mentioned this to me once while we were talking.

As far as "zone pushing" goes, that would be first attempted with rooted cuttings of things from my garden which do OK here. Here, I just cut off Winter damage and let the Teas and Chinas do their thing for the rest of the growing season. In that way, I treat them much like Buddleia. The last two Winters were the most severe we've had in a long time, and they still managed well with this treatment. Certainly climbers in trees will not be amenable to this treatment, which is why I'd rather not "zone-push" them, and require further information from experiences on the list I posted -- but a few Chinas planted in full-sun against the church or the brick wall should do fine, since those in my garden don't even have that much protection.

I'm in Middlesex County, a few towns west of the coast, with the Raritan River running nearby, and with "urban heat island" effect. On the USDA Hardiness maps, there's a strip of 7a that runs along the coast of NJ, beginning just north of here and continuing south. This same strip of 7a extends into NYC and Long Island. The different maps varied with regards to how far west that strip extended, and where 6b started. From what I remember, the first map had New Brunswick as 6b, but the second and third have it as 7a.

:-)

~Christopher

Christopher, what an exciting and deeply cool project! You know, I live really close to you (I'm in Griggstown, just up the hill from the Griggstown Farm market where I saw you bought one of your T-giving birds). I could definitely donate some suckers from my La Belle Sultane - I dug up a bunch, potted them up, and they are currently resting in my veg. garden/pot ghetto, but I'd think you wouldn't want to plant til spring anyway. I also have some Paul Transom cuttings snoozing in the pot ghetto, and a volunteer Peggy Martin who rooted herself in my driveway. Anyway, all of this depends on if they make it through the winter, but if they do and you want them, they're yours! (Well, I want to keep a few of the La Belle Sultanes, and probably one of the Paul Transoms, but there's a whole bunch of them). I can deliver or you can pick up.

I saw you have Ispahan on order - I have that, and its a really sublime rose, excellent choice! Of the ones you are considering, I grow Veilchenblau, Paul's Himalayan Musk, Phyllis Bide, Ghislane de Feligonde, and Erinnerung. All except Erinnerung do great for me, and Erinnerung I think is just in too shady a spot, I'm moving it this spring. Other big ones that are great for me are climbing Caldwell Pink, 7 sisters, and Complicata.

Best,

Frances

...I'm poking my oar in here when it's none of my business speaking from a million miles away, but whilst I think it's marvellous what you would like to do with that ground, I would exercise caution and hope that you might rein yourself back a bit... as you've often stated, you'll be moving away in the future, and with some of those climbers, you're making a lot of work for someone there, even if the present incumbent is capable, they too may move on at some point...

...the garden does need a bit of t.l.c., some plantings of smaller shrub roses would be nice... I'd also like to see some summer bedding go in... but if I was a local person walking past there, I'm not sure I would think the garden lends itself to having roses billowing out of trees, along railings, it will be swamped.... and those railings have to be painted, I've got some here like that...

...it looks a quiet place, of rest, obviously... and established....it's peaceful... I wouldn't want to make it look too busy, I don't think a cemetery should look like that... unless it's especially huge and there's scope and staff for it...

...I think on this forum we're all a bit rose radicalised, to use a somewhat unfortunate term, but influence plays such a part, and I try very hard to keep my own ideas within my own boundaries and not to allow them to escape onto another garden which doesn't belong to me... and I'm wondering if you see this as an opportunity to develop a kind of 2nd garden of roses, of your choice....

...I hope you're not offended, I don't mean to put a damper on your enthusiasm, but just maybe encourage you to perhaps step back a bit...?

...just my 2 cents, as you'd say.... all good wishes...

Frances, thank you so much for the offer of 'La Belle Sultane' -- it's on my list. Considering how prevalent "pink" is among the European OGRs, I was aiming for some dark-colored Gallicas and Hybrid Chinas to widen the color spectrum. I'd also love to try rooting cuttings from your 'Veilchenblau', 'Paul's Himalayan Musk', 'Phyllis Bide', 'Ghislaine de Felligonde', and/or 'Erinnerung an Brod' if you let me pay a visit in Spring.

I'm not sure about Wichurana-type ramblers just yet -- the caretaker couldn't give me an answer about planting along the fence, saying that it's currently undergoing renovation, and needs to be kept free. That may change, or it may not.

And yes, planting wouldn't be until next year, and likely not until after peak Summer heat has passed. I've found that, in my baby garden, keeping things pampered and potted allows for faster growth than popping them in the ground right away. I waited until August before putting any new roses in the ground.

BTW, do you have any full shots of any of the roses you mentioned? I'd love to see their sizes and habits in our area.

Thanks again! I'll keep a record of any donated roses, and if you allow, your names just may end up being mentioned in the garden.

:-)

~Christopher

Marlorena, I will definitely heed your advice. I have ideas of what can go where, but I'm not about to swamp the place in one go. In my mind, adding to the garden will take place over several years and waves. In terms of putting things in trees, I envisioned about five or so for the whole property -- not every tree, by far, and blooming at different times. The fence idea would be pretty to my eyes, but as you say, that would be something requiring more maintenance. It's likely it may never happen.

As for the rest of the area, I'm not picturing a "rose garden" so much as tucking in a few here and there, where they could enhance the existing landscape. For example, that bed along the street facing west, by the wall of the neighboring parking garage, to me could easily accommodate an Alba in the corner where the chain link fence meets the iron fence. For the rest of the bed, maybe two or three other roses. Similarly, I see some other "bare spots" that look as though something perhaps WAS there but is no longer -- like the empty spots on either side of the church door, where I think a few 'Marie Pavie' would look cute. The caretaker has told me that his goal for the garden is to have "something of interest" for as much of the year as possible, and I agree that a bed full of roses wouldn't allow much else to provide "something of interest" when they're not blooming.

I don't take any offense -- the reason I posted this is for a balance of opinions on all sides, as well as saying "hey, if you have anything you'd like to pass on....." And in your case, sage advice is definitely appreciated.

:-)

~Christopher

Christopher, I have a 'Mlle Cecile Brunner, Cl.' set aside for you. I have no doubt she can eat a tree, or the whole churchyard, but it remains to be seen how well she'll weather your 7a/6b winters- she has an 'Excellent' cold-hardiness rating at HMF, but who knows what that really means? I doubt she'll die, but she may die back.

My own year-old plant has yet to bloom, but she's been kinda busy getting ginormous, so I'm not surprised. I did cut two canes back mid-summer, because they were in everyone's way (and not thornless), but I'm still expecting to see flowers in the spring. (One of those canes rooted itself so that's the source of the plant I have for you.)

FWIW, the parent plant of my young 'MCB,Cl' does have some rebloom; it was flowering last month when I visited it (or rather, the gardener whose plant it is).

Here's a photo from April 2014, from the parent of my plant.

Lovely churchyard, and I hope 'Aunt Jane' gets her own rose- maybe one from her birth year?

Virginia

Thanks, Virginia! I know you have it waiting for me, and I have that noted.

Oh, one other thing for Marlorena, and anyone else if I didn't get this point across. While this is a cemetery, it's also a church yard. People walk through the garden on the way into the church for services, and they hold outdoor functions like picnics there when the weather permits. I regularly walk through it myself on my way to work, as it cuts through between two streets, and often find people sitting on the benches reading or having lunch. The church's facebook page has lots of pics of its members both using and maintaining the space. So this isn't necessarily functioning just as a cemetery -- there's a lot more "life" going on in this garden-in-the-works than in most cemeteries.

Again, I appreciate everyone's thoughts and advice.

:-)

~Christopher

Now that I understand the project a bit better, I'd strongly recommend against any climbers. Not only do you need to maintain the roses, but it also becomes an issue maintaining the trees. Having anything growing up the trees makes it harder to see potential problems.

Definitely a plan will help. Without that, I'm not sure you have room for many more than are already ordered. Particularly since without pruning, shrub roses get BIG. Also, you should only plant indestructible kinds that do not have Napoleonic tendencies. That eliminates a lot of gallicas, and more than a few damasks and albas.

I've been mixed up with more than my share of 'public' rose gardens. The priority is very different than what may happen in somebody's private garden. First priority may be something that looks good all year, with ease of maintenance being a close second. Little else shows up on the radar.

Basically, I'd recommend starting all over with a thread asking for recommendations for locally superlative OGRs. There should be almost nothing going in that churchyard that somebody locally has not had long term success with. It isn't the place for 'flyers'.

I appreciate the comments and concerns about maintenance, and the following is NOT a rant, but rather my attempt at clarifying the specifics of this site.

These are things I've thought and talked about with the caretaker. I first approached him about this back in early Summer. Being recognized as a historic site by the state of NJ, they do get quite a few hands working on keeping things up. Volunteers from Rutgers University have been coming by this Autumn to clean, prime, and repaint the fence. The small water feature was donated by a church member, and installed by the caretaker. All the plants you see in there already were donated -- and in many cases planted -- by church members. They get together for leaf raking and shredding in Autumn. Brian, the caretaker, has shared with me his desire to create something really beautiful, but he's limited by cost. He's been expanding beds, but doesn't have much more than divisions of church members' plants to fill them. Since he lives on-site, this is effectively his back yard, and I saw him out there almost daily during the growing season -- he also maintains a small veggie garden for the church which I didn't photograph. [The church is across the street from my job, and down the street from the Starbucks from where I collect used coffee grounds daily.] I told him that a few old roses could make good "anchor shrubs" around
which he can continue to spread the companion plants he already has in
abundance. This is not an empty stretch of land that some people "say" they'd like improved but don't do anything about it -- and this is why I took interest in it.

When I was in Buffalo, I was approached by my "block club" about helping to put together a proposal for a city grant to buy plants for the empty space at the end of the street. We did get a few volunteers for helping to put it together, but I did much of the work by myself. As my free time started to shrink from classes and a busier work schedule, "maintenance" became me going down there once a week to pull weeds and pick up garbage. Once things were planted, the attitudes I kept hearing from non-participating neighbors about how "the college kids will ruin it" morphed into "no one will take care of it" -- and it was the latter which became true. So in essence, I lived on a block full of people complaining about how the neighborhood looked crappy and no one was doing anything about it, yet they themselves were reticent to make the first step -- or even keep things going after others got things started for them. I lived there for three years, and became well aware -- as they knew I am a "downstater" myself -- of that "blame everyone else" attitude for their deep-seated Rust Belt woes. What I at first thought would be an example of the "Stone Soup" story coming to life and igniting a desire for further improvement became an example of how throwing some money at something isn't enough to make a change -- you need people willing to keep it going.

But this isn't what I find at this location. Instead, I find someone with the desire, energy, and know-how to make something beautiful here, but is limited by funds. Yes, there are plenty of roses I can't grow in my yard which I'd like to see in this garden, but this isn't going to be "my garden". I'd like to see them there because they'd be appropriate there, and the caretaker agrees. As for tree maintenance, as far as I can tell none is performed, other than raking leaves. I will speak to Brian in more detail about having roses up in them, but he has already expressed interest when I asked if he'd want that.

In the meantime, I don't have any roses on-hand right now that will be planted there. I do have an order for Spring, but that's it. I also have my own "inventory" from which I can propagate, as well as whatever I can propagate from the Peggy Rockefeller Rose Garden, and whatever I can get donated. If it turns out I have too much, any "leftovers" will go back to the HRF. So, in the end, this will be about me saying to Brian "Hey, I have this, and I think it'd work over there....want it? Oh, and what about putting this one over here...it'll get this big eventually, so you'll need that much space." He's really the designer. I'm just sharing my rose info with -- and trying to "make plants happen" for -- him.

:-)

~Christopher

That sounds great, Christopher, that there is an onsite gardener. That could make all the difference.

'City of York' is one that springs to mind. The late plant pathologist Cynthia Westcott loved this rose, which she reported to be super hardy, tremendously vigorous, free of disease, and fragrant. See http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.124288

Christopher, you did pick a somewhat alarming subject line for going public with your plans!

I know you've been thinking this out for a while, and while I know your plans will inevitably have some failures, because even you are capable of miscalculations, I also know that this churchyard/public space will benefit from your efforts to introduce some old roses into a space where they probably existed in years past.

I also am hoping that you can rein in your zone-pushing tendencies (dead plants- or plants that look dead- in the spring aren't exactly a good advertisement for planting old roses), and don't get carried away with roses that might easily overstep their bounds after you move on, and if the caretaker also moves on.

However, the thought of what bad things might eventually happen shouldn't stop you from trying. It sounds like an ideal situation for you to help plan and plant something beautiful in a historic public space, and if I know you, you'll have some of those volunteers roped in to learn how to care for the roses, and the caretaker's continued presence will not be the only hope for the churchyard's rosy future.

I will add a caveat that you may not have considered; I have heard from gardeners in public gardens that unlabeled roses are less likely to get dug up and stolen. Some people think nothing of digging up plants from public or private gardens and then selling them at flea markets or what have you.

Good luck to you,

Virginia