Hmmm....

What is the path of least work here.

Mark your walking or driving trails.

Kill the trees you don't want via chainsaw and or round up.

Clear the wood from the trails.

Plant bunches of tiny seedlings from your state or companies like Musser forests.

Come back and kill the root suckers you don't want to regrow via manual labor and round up.

Repeat the last two every fall and spring?

Maybe hold a controlled burn here and there if u can hire people who have done it before to come over at least the first time.

Doing much more is labor for the sake of labor.

Rotting logs in the woodland ARE your fertilizer. Fertilizing is a commercial farmer's tool and I have a fear you will raise trees which get used to the un natural fertilizer and decline when you stop fertilizing or they get to large for you to fertilize in 20 years.

My sons and I have planted 10,000 trees to date on land we own and are managing for tree plantation/forest. We have never used one cup of fertilizer, nor will we be doing so. What I would be looking into if it's a forest-type planting I'm interested in creating is mycorrhizal fungal associates of trees. That string of funny words is the absolute rock bottom reason why all over the world, where mankind-the wise ape-has not yet destroyed them, beautiful, lush and green forests are growing. Indeed, in one acre of primary (never been logged) forest, this beneficial fungal biomass is probably the greatest single component of the forest-by weight-surpassing the weight of the trees themselves. No serious effort to initiate forest or a forest-like planting would be complete without at least some understanding of this group of fascinating organisms, and their functions and values to the forest.

That said, the actual practice of using these organisms is still in its infancy. I could write all day about some exciting (to me, anyway) news coming out abut a two-pronged approach to getting these valuable organisms going on your project, but the truth is, they're almost always present anyway, if in a woodsy area. In extremely abused ecosystems, like mine tailings piles, etc. one can add in the mycs and see a difference. So far..........and I stress this, so far...we haven't been able to successfully inoculate soils with these organisms. But I do believe that day is coming.

Fertilizing plants is old, crude practice. More and more, things are moving in the direction of the far more complex way nature does it.

NHBabs / waynedanielson / toronado3800 Zone 6 StLouis - You 3 are so far the only ones to put something up of usefulness.
(NHbabs - I like the NRCS web soil survey info, unfortunately additional information was not yielded from the site/ the city had the most to offer, but their records were from 75years ago and all they did was make drainage maps and go off of predictions)
(Waynedanielson - I like the information of what you would do for planting and idea of where to get christmas tree saplings for cheap already grown and I will be looking into that. TY!
(Toronado3800- Like your thought process , but I believe the invasive locust tree plant will not just die by cutting the tree down and will do more harm then good and that doesnt even cover the other invasive pricker bush type plants, which I have not intention of researching to figure out what they are. If there is any roots near the surface from the cut down trees or bushes, then lots of little tree sprouts will shoot up from the roots overly ridiculously fast.) Example In 3 days there will be thousands of 3 inch plants popping out of the ground all the same type. In 1 week they will be 10 inches tall and by the end of the 1st month will be waist high. I know this because the tried to do this last year on me. Which is why I pick up a soil conditioner and tiller to reach 6" deep and a tree auger to eliminate the stump. Im using a midsize skid-steer with numerous attachments!

AS FOR EVERYONE ELSE- I feel its my fault for giving you all the entire picture from start to finish! I shouldve just said the property is flat/level with not 1 single plant on it. Because you have all went off to your own Emo states of confusion and ended up being stuck on trying convince me to save some of the forest and whatever else.

I wanted to also say to the other group of people who think I have a regular standardized forest. I have not seen 1 animal on that property since I owned it for about a 1 1/2 yrs now. I have never seen any animal tracks of any type or even a squirrel/chipmunk run across the street since I been out there. You dont even see birds landing in the trees.
SO if anyone has any more comments about saving or there is, but I cant see the animal life. KEEP IT TO YOURSELF, If you dont have something useful to add then dont post. PLEASE!

I'm curious what the "soil conditioner" is that you're planning to use?

1 - Auger for tree trunks - (http://quickattach.com/attachments/earthauger/)

2 - Soil conditioner (http://quickattach.com/attachments/soilconditioner/)

3 - Tiller - http://quickattach.com/attachments/rotarytiller/)

4 - Tree trencher - If nessacary for large roots (http://quickattach.com/attachments/earthauger/)

Hope this answers your question!

What, no one is going to comment on the giant water slide?

Cloud Kicker, I'll admit I haven't carefully read all of your posts. I skimmed them first and saw what looked to be pretty rude statements is ALL CAPS, and just got turned off. When I read stuff like, "KEEP IT TO YOURSELF," I can't help but wonder if you realize this is a public forum and not your personal blog! I bet if you act a little more civil, you're likely to get better responses. I don't know if your "real life" persona is different than the way you've come across here, but I sure hope so.

i think your property has a lot of potential....but its going to cost you. First thing i would do is stabilize that stream bank or your going to have flooding issues....plant trees (preferably indigenous) that can tolerate wet conditions next to it. If you want to grow trees for profit then black walnut and black cherry are your trees.

Viper, I agree on the potential and hate the sound of extra effort and costs.

Cloud Kicker is on 20 acres. Unless it is very flat I put forward there is probably no reason to spend time with channelizing the stream. The dual effort of digging a trench for it to run in and building walls to contain it seem daunting.

also want to add that its vital to work with nature not against it.....always have that in mind. Those who work against nature are facing an uphill battle that only leads to more work and costs. I think permaculture principles would work wonders in this situation.

rhizo_1 - I want to hear your thoughts on the giant water slide!

brandon7 TN_zone - You shouldnt be surprised with snippy remarks if people dont bother to read the main post thoroughly and then hijack a thread in many different directions other then what it was meant for. The CAPS were specificly for people such as yourself that wanted to do the skim read and proceed to continue derail the direction of the conversation (ATTENTION GRABBERS, not meant for yelling). I also want to point out that I did try to get everyone on the same page as nicely as I could. And I did admit it may have been my fault for trying to give everyone all the information, I blame my Extreme OCD to give out a huge amount of information so people can make sound decisions, when giving logical suggestions/answers/and feedback.

viper114 - Your the kinda guy I think I was hoping to run into on this forum with that kind of thinking. Thats exactly what I was thinking when I walked the property and seen the landscape <Potential>. Were on the same page with stabilizing the stream. I purchased a back hoe for digging it out and on my list of plants to purchase Erosion controlling plants near the banks. It sure did cost me, a backhoes ($7000) worth of money! As for the growing trees for money, that was what I was planning to do (See Color chart at the top), the foresters told me 10 * 10 rows for planting and thin here and there. I specific put up a color chart / elevation chart / a few aerial charts / and was going to upload a tree listing, so people could get a lay of the land and maybe see if I missed something with where I was planning to put the trees. I did alot of research on the trees and I do know/believe they all grow in my zones and will work with the soil. But only a handful of trees need (3%) the soil changed. Anyhow if its something you believe is in your expertise/interest I will upload the tree list for you to give it a look see. I appreciate any feedback. If you got any questions I will answer.

Not trying to fight nature, just give it a reboot and help it breath with some restructuring. Got plenty of tools to get the job done. Just hope other people will see what im after and offer their ideas/thoughts.

Just a suggestion, but if you don't want people to skim over your post then you should break it up into paragraphs. It's hard to read one big long paragraph, especially when some people are trying to do it on a tablet or phone.

Doesn't look as there will be consensus anyhow so I'll hurl this firebomb over the fence. We often forget how brief our stay on earth will be and set about changing things for perpetuity. It would serve well if we consider land we buy as being on short term loan then treat it as such. I once noticed new neighbors cutting two live Oaks down in their yard. When I asked why the trees were being removed,the answer was very unexpected. "They are ugly so I'm replacing them with nice Maples like we have back home." This took place in Texas where Maple last 20 years if they are watered and pests don't kill them first,roadside Live Oak life span is measured in centuries. Probability of this property being critical riparian buffer sound's high.

Some good points there Klem. For my part-and my part is mostly staying out of this hot mess-I would expect some degree of govt. regulatory concern in the project being contemplated here. And to an equal degree, govt. agency help. I don't get any feeling however that any of this is in play here....and that's quite concerning.

Yes it is concerning if forestors and wildlife experts didn't address the point.

Is it possible that this isnt even a real post? When I saw that land and then the comment "0 wildlife value" from a "forrester" I became very suspicious. Based on the pictures of the creeks and all of that undergrowth I would imagine that land is teeming with wildlife. Also the comments on it being "dangerous". Give me a break. If it is a real post the only possible explanation is a city slicker who has moved to the country and has never seen a wild piece of natural land and has money to burn on new toys (skid steer, backhoe, etc...).

This would not exactly be natural, but you could plant a grove of European Oak and Elm trees. This would certainly make it wonderful to stroll around your property in the Summer. Sometimes park-like can be better than nature. Plant some ferns and raspberry bushes in your forest too.

alabamatreehugger - There main post had 8-10 paragraphs with multiple spacing between them. I didnt understand why It just put everything together like that and theres no way to fix it (No Edit Button for main post) It has no problem leaving the spacing with all the sub post.

klem1 / wisconsitom - You are not mistaken with gov / county / city concern and help. The foresters did address the issues with me. And I did all the calling a person could do to try and get help. The problem I ran into is the property is 19.96 acres and not 20 or above. So there are no government programs to help. I called up DNR, the EPA, city, and county to confirm all that I have planned to do. EPA had 5 concerns and city had 2 concern/issues
EPA

1. - No chemical spraying around creeks with in 200ft. Makes sense to me that they dont want chemicals in the water that flows to the great lakes.

2. - If I wish to remove any or all trees and replant then I must NOT Rip the stumpes out in the low land areas. (Thier suggest was cut trees down auger stumps, use a soil conditioner followed by tiller, but keep tiller 3' from the creek.)

3. - If a road is needed to get over a low land area, then a road must be of equal or greater height then the main road with proper drainage. (Meaning dont trap the water) Plus I need a special permit to install road from EPA not the city.

4. - The installation of a culvert must be done in 1 jump and not several. They were very specific about this and will not allow me to to use multiple 4'culverts. I need to use a 10' culvert.

5 - No throwing of any unnatural debris in creeks.

City
1. Burn permits are required for small things and zero allowances for controlled burns around water within 200' / wetlands/ and 1000' for when other homes are around.

2. NO buildings are allowed to be built in the wetlands. Easy enough, I plan to put the house on the hill.

3. It is the property owners responsibility to Manage and control his/her Land and does not disclude right of way, whether it be natural or unnatural. Liability is the home owners responsibility.

I did shorten their lengthy concerns and there are a few more, but nothing that apply s to what will be going on.
Foresters did address the issues and suggested I properly manage the forest quickly before going forward. It would befit me for a future source of income and the forest would quickly recover if done right. These guys were nice enough to let me visit some of their other customer who are doing the same thing as me. Their property are amazing looking. Main thing seems to be proper spacing of trees and thinning here and there. Adding key shrubs/bushes that feed the soil nutrients for certain trees to help them grow quickly. And a good root system to get the trees started!

parker25mv - Those 2 trees are on the list and ferns and raspberries sound like a great idea

.

Good to hear that these parties are in the mix, Cloud Kicker, both for the legitimate issues raised and so as to not have you do a bunch of stuff that later has to be undone. That wouldn't help anybody.

yes leave the stumps in place the roots are holding the soil together so if you rip them out you would have a huge erosion problem and possible landslides depending on the contour of your land. Tilling will not help your situation. All it will do is bring weed seeds to the surface to germinate. If you want to amend the soil add a little something special to each hole when u dig like manure or vermicast.

I'm with sowen18. This is a joke right?

That makes three of us.I do hope that this is a joke post.

If not literlly and intentionally,without a doupt metaphorically. Stranger things do happen. A family from a far away country bought a ranch near me in Texas then set about changing everything in sight. The steel pipe driveway enterance was removed in favor of polished marble and lavish lighting more suited to a casino. Native trees along winding drive to home were removed and in their place erected ornate pole lights spaced about 20 feet apart. The house and barns were sickening after they finished. Moored on the 20 acre private lake, a 520 Sport Coupe cruiser which translates to a 52' diesel powered yacht you expect to see along the FL coast. I've never seen such a boat on nearby Toledo Bend that has 1200 miles of shoreline. I wonder if the owner would be pleased to know locals say he has too many dollars and not enough sense.

"It would befit me for a future source of income and the forest would quickly recover if done right."

I love the idea and helped some fellows with the Powerpoint part of a lecture on sustainable logging a decade or more back I think it was.

Help me with the math real quick here. The time frame and start up costs of you doing it this way concern me. My initial idea is the only ways for a relative newb like me to make money off 20 acres in a few years with plants is to open a pumpkin patch (or corn stand etc) or start a tree farm relying on selling something fast growing and hot like metasequoia.

Roughly how much are you investing in equipment?

What sources of income is this land going to give?

Something like black walnuts....what is the time to your first harvest? I don't think this will be major if unstart small but how much will you spend on 18 or so acres of walnut trees?

What are your equipment and tree maintenance costs?

toronado3800 Zone 6 StLouis -

Equipment cost - $20,000 for the skidsteer and $20,000 for the attachments. Im also using the skidsteer to build my house, dig out creek, put the road in, run electrical, plumbing, decking, maintain property, move bolders around, move heavy machinery, snowblow driveway, make/maintain trails, lift walls/trusses up, Lift Wind turbines, various other future projects, etc.

Lets be clear cause I did do the math multiple ways, if I were to rent the equipment to do most these jobs it ends up costing me $30,000 - $38,000. Plus the headache to pick up and return each item. Wear and tear on my vehicle. The need to return the items in the same condition, gas, clean up, etc. Rent a trailer.

Now if I paid someone to do some of these jobs I was planning to do myself then were talking around $70,000-$80,000. And I did call around getting multiple quotes!

Regardless I was getting the equipment even if I wasn't doing the replanting. So the equipment kinda nulled and voided it self in my eyes.
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Sources/Gain of income - No need to pay city for water (Installing a well)/electric (Solar panels/wind turbines/water mill will reduce my bill to zero and will actually have the electric company paying me for a change)/ water sewage cost will be gone/ and not to mention a huge difference in my property tax.

Free nuts,berries, syrup, various wood species, and vegetables. No interest in harvesting for others, but if someone wanted to, I would be willing to hear them out.

Sell timber tree wood / sell tree seedlings or larger size trees!
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How much on walnut tree maintance? My guess would be $200 max for pest infestations/fungus/disease control issues. Dont need mulch the whole property is mulch, suns free, and water is free. Harvest is recommended every 10 years. And once again I feel the equipment cost is nulled and voided for reasons already stated.
I think the most important factor is, the property can be properly maintained, and pays for its own make over and then some for peace of mind.

What tree are you planning on harvesting after 10 years? Nothing of value is going to be ready that quick. If this post really isn't a joke please get some professional opinions, the people you've spoke to just told you what you wanted to hear.

"What tree are you planning on harvesting after 10 years?"

210 different type hardwood (70% of three hundered different type trees total on property) fast growing,geneticly engineered super trees.

Ok. It sounds like you aren't investing 40k expecting walnuts to outpace a mutual fund.

I'd be curious as to the breakdown of tree types. IMO walnuts aren't as bad as folks say but be aware of junglone.

I think I might have said this already, but since this has gone down the road of making $$ on wood, I'll throw it in that, say you're growing black walnut for the purpose of producing furniture-grade veneer. These trees then would need to have been pruned throughout their lifetime to remove lower limbs. Knotty lumber is worth much less than knot-free. So add that into your costs-the costs of pruning these trees of lower limbs throughout their rotation, whatever it ends up being.

Another tidbit: Lots of sources will hype this or that "fast-growing" super tree, or whatever lingo is used. But the very high-grade lumber that is obtained from old-growth timber is that way because as trees age, their growth rate slows, such that one ends up with very tightly-grained sapwood. Just growing a tree rapidly is only about 25% of the goal. You also want to grow your trees very slowly for some time, to get that valuable tight grain. There're no free rides in this thing.

" IMO walnuts aren't as bad as folks say but be aware of junglone." Are you talking about nuts or wood? What is there about junglone that one should be aware of? I stated here or elsewhere that junglone stunts and kills many plants but the consensus was that it's not so. I think op's property may be unsuitable to grow most trees anyhow but I'm expanding my knowledge base.

Klem, there are plants very much inhibited by juglone-think tomatoes-and there are other plants seemingly completely unaffected-think bluegrass turf. It's not all or nothing, but somewhere inbetween. As for what OP's after here, it does seem a bit confused, but maybe I'm the one that is confused! I know how to tell someone what to do if growing the trees for timber........or for nuts..........or for aesthetics....or for biology. But I can't tell someone what reason to pick!

Heres the HARDWOOD list - Anything went a line through it or a X has been ruled out. Maybes just me im debating on weather its worth it to keep them or not.
All these trees were found off of 3 tree sites. So if someone wants to recommend 1 thats great and if someone thinks one should be removed im ok with that as well, but just list the reasons why to either add or subtract.

Growth rates were determined by arbor day rules. Slow means Under 0-18" of growth per year / Medium means 18"-36" / Fast Means 36" and up.
If theres a dash between it means the growth rate changes with age! (Slow-Medium or Medium-Fast)

Here is the PINE tree list - Same as before if someone wants to add or subtract something just list the reasons. Anything with a X next to means it was ruled out.

Rest of trees are either on the Flowering tree list or the Decorative tree list. If anyone wishes to see those list let me know and I will be happy to upload those list as well.

FYI - I used that kids coloring map everyone laughed at me for earlier to try to put things in key areas to either seperate/group/needs lots of water/dry land/ shade tolerant/Loves sun/ fast growth rate/ slow growth rate/ grows well on hills/ loves nasty soil/ rich soil/ etc. them from the group for reasons like (Either black walnut or black cherry is said to poison the ground to kill other plants off). All I did was try to preplace the trees in areas that seems that it would be a suitable area for it.

And just to clear things up, my main intention is not to grow the trees for money, its for aesthetics 1st! It just seems after watching all these forester videos that it makes logical sense that if trees are going to fall and die from overcrowding / root decay/ or whatever else then I would like to collect some funds and have use come from the lumber instead of letting it just rot in the forest blocking trails and whatever else.

Im trying to hit 3 birds with 1 stone. Since im a builder/carpenter/cabinet maker/ etc. I understand that waste is bad. If I cant make use of 1000 12" blocks left over from 1 site I would like to see it go to another site and save money/material.

Cloud kicker, try to modify growth rates and sizes for your zone.

Examples not specific to you I am thinking about are things like:

My favorite, metasequoia, grows fast here. Put it in a dry zone 6 or in Ken's great frozen north and it just won't do the same.

Southern magnolia is a big wide tree down south if open planted. Here, it might grow as tall as the nearby buildings unless you are in a sheltered spot.

You need to come up with a list of trees that will actually grow in your location. Quite a few will never make it.

One additional comment: Nothing wrong with envisioning a dollar or two from potential future thinning cuts or full-on timber harvests, but I would like to disabuse you and any other reader(s) of the notion that a fallen tree in the forest represents a waste. Nothing could be further from the truth. In the forest, it is literally impossible for any such fallen material to be wasted, as mycroorganisms-which collectively weigh more than the trees-set about reducing it back into usable soil materials. Further, there are tree species, including some of our favorites, which never start on the ground but which require a fallen log or rotting stump on which to grow and begin their lives. Think such important species as hemlock and yellow birch.

The other item is, do some looking around you. What types of forest associations are common to your area? Is there a lot of sugar maple/red oak/beech? Is there more green ash/silver maple/cottonwood? What is going on already in the area? Not that you have to follow this explicitly, but it can be a good jumping off point.

We got just about everything on that list with the exception of 17 trees, which was added from recommendations from another forums with people that are from zone 6 areas. Michigan is famous for maple trees. But just driving to the property I can see tons of different trees on other peoples propertys, off the freeway, and around the citys.

I will tell you how I came up with my list. I used 3 websites to make a huge list of about 600 hardwood / pine trees and 400 flowering / decorative trees / food trees. I wittled the list down, then goggled 30 huge tree/garden crop sellers in the michigan area. Physically went to the stores checked off trees that were being sold by them or that they knew of that were actually growing here (which some supplied a address /street location to view how the trees were doing). Some I went to go visit and some it was too much trouble. Too much time to much gas. I narrowed the list to about 300 hardwood, pine / 200 flowering trees. From there I googled each tree and looked up growing conditions / soil conditions / amount of sunlight /what the tree will look like / etc, to Narrow down the list the rest of the way with lots of goggling. Even had foresters look at the list to get their take on it, via email. They added 12 and convinced me to eliminate 5.
< As for the forest associations they literally have been about the same amount of helpfullness as this forum has been since I started the post. Everyone is telling me the same repetitive general info which I already know and nothing to add/subtract that is new. Maybe I posted in the wrong forum/ location, I dont know! >

ex. 1 - Theres a guy 2 countys over growing 2 giant sequoias and 1 coast redwood tree. Those trees used to grow here, but died out long long long time ago for who knows what reasons. If you do a search online you will find many other people trying to also grow those trees in michigan. Some were able to get the tree up 130' with help from fogging units.

ex. 2 - There is a huge arizona cypress tree growing in the middle of the state off of I-75 exit for Leland (guessing name of exit). There is a pretty big Garden center there and they have a few trees growing at the front of the property to show they sell exotic trees and have a large selection.

ex. 3 - Then we got highway/ city trees from when bush did those huge stimulus packages for roads/ freeways/ and forests. Lots of cities have their own special type of tree groups. Just driving through the cities in my areas or walking through the forest (gross pointe/ harper woods / troy/ birmingham / fraser / pellston / petosky / mackinaw/ cheboygan/ charlevoix/mackinaw ) and you can find most the hardwoods and pines on my list.

So when you tell me to make a list of what grows in the Michigan area, that is the list. I been making the list for 1 1/2years.

Anywho I just ordered all the materials <2,500 tree containers / potting soil mix> to start growing, with the exception of the seeds and growing light. Also finished building the temporary green house for summer. So im about set here. Im growing all the hardwoods and pines 1st. $462 spent to date.

What do the squares around some names mean?

Subtractions:

1.) Austrian Pine:

Very vulnerable to disease (eg. nematodes) and barks beetles in parts of the country.
(Are Bark Beetles common in your area? Look to see if you can find any really old specimens...and look for little holes in the bark)
Also a relatively small pine, and not a native. I find them less attractive then white pine. They are still extensively used in suburban areas due to their tolerance of road salt, pollution, and compacted soil from construction sites, and the fact they are smaller then white pines...but none of those are things you need. ( there short life expediencies in the U.S. may be irrelevant in cities where few trees last long)
2.) Loblolly Pine
Somewhat vulnerable to Bark Beetles...although not as vulnerable as Austrian Pine. Also don't like cold winters. I'm in Zone 6 and they don't grow here. You could try Loblolly x Pitch Pine hybrids...they are slightly more cold tolerant. Or white pine.

3.) American Elm:

Dying out due to Dutch Elm disease. They are working on disease resistant hybrids, but they are expensive and hard to find.

4.) Live Oak

I'm in Zone 6 and they won't grow here.

5.) Black Oak

Extra salt tolerant (which you don't need) but being wiped out by the Black Oak Gall Wasp in places. Is that problem present in your area?

6.) Common Ash/Green Ash

Aren't these being wiped out by the Emerald Ash Borer?

7.) Italian Alder:

An invasive species in some regions. Check your local invasive species list.

8.) Black Locust

An invasive species in some areas...check your local invasive species list.

9.) Atlas Cedar

Beautiful tree, borderline hardy in Zone 6. Won't survive in Zone 5.

Substitutions:
Not bad trees, but other trees are better choices

1.) English Oak
Nothing really wrong with this one. It's just a tree for which there is a perfectly good native substitute. White Oak is the most disease resistant oak, red oak grows a bit faster and transplants easier but is starting to have disease problems in parts of the US.

2.) Red Pine

Not a fan. Lacks the disease resistance of white pine and the salt tolerance of pitch. Somewhat vulnerable to bark beetles.

3) Red Maple

Perfectly good tree, but the Sugar Maple can be used as a source of maple syrup, is more shade tolerant, and has fall color that is second to none. The red maple is largely used because it tolerates urban areas better...but you don't need that. Plant Sugar Maple instead. I'd also substitute Sugar Maple for Big Leaf maple.

4.) European Beech

Perfectly good tree but if you are planting for wildlife, plant native American Beech.

Additions:

1.) Tupelo (Nyssa Sylvatica)
On your list but not checked.

One of the top trees for bees and somewhat tolerant of swamp soil. Good for birds to. Shade tolerant so you can squeeze a few in between the shorter lived trees.

2.) American Holly

Attractive tree that provides food and shelter for birds. Shade tolerant. Good privacy screen. Slow growing and might be borderline hardy where you are.

Did you say there was another list of flowering trees? I'd like to see that.

edlincoln -- nice comments.

Just to mention, loblolly seems fine, so far, in my z6. Of course, loblolly x pitch is more cold-hardy. Below is my loblolly (and a small ponderosa pine) -- weathered -9F before w/o problems. And I've seen a couple very large & healthy loblollies in the VA State Arb (Winchester, VA):

Cloud kicker, Arizona cypresses grow well in western MD -- some examples. But they need good drainage:

He said he is at the border of zones 4, 5 and 6...and I never see loblolly around me in zone 6.

edlincoln / beng12

I also wanted to let you guys know there is a good reason why, im planting so many different species and some that I know have a few problems and some that may just never have a chance of making it. Trying to repopulate a few trees that hold sentimental value for me and some of my family and friends.
Ex. It cost $0.05 to plant a american chestnut tree that had a huge blight issue, but may now have a resistance to the blight. If it works great, if not im out a nickle.

1.) Austrian Pine: Ty for pointing bark beetles out! Yes seen the bark beetle report as well, but from what I read they only attack weak trees. From what I seen of the few pine trees around me they all appear healthy meaning (Bark from bottom to about 15ft up looks good, No dead branches or tips, no root rot, and no little bore holes). Im only planting three of those trees for birds and food for wildlife. I figured if worst comes to worst, I I will burn them to the ground (If I cant find a civil solution).
***But on a side note U.P. of Michigan is having alot of pine tree issues. While people around the L.P. end of Michigan are having no problems. My guess is its because alot less pines in the south is why.

2.) Loblolly Pine - Ok, I will mix Loblolly x Pitch Pine hybrids, with regular loblolly pines. I found a forum on here and a few other google location with people stating that both will grow, but the tree needs more time to grow before planting to make it tolerate the cold. And considering with past winter not being cold at all, I will just try both and see what happens. Ty for that info.

3.) American Elm: - I did not know about the Dutch disease and do see they have hybrids out there. Going to get some and give them a shot and see how they do. Thank for for the heads up

4.) Live Oak - We got all the Oaks here and only the black oak seem to have a problem here. We have lots of Live oaks between the farm lands here and are doing very well.

5.) Black Oak - Michigan does have a Gail wasp issue although not in my area. Its from what people bring into the state and have started a quarantine. So I will cross the black oak off my list. Ty for bringing that issue to my attention.

6.) Common Ash/Green Ash- I read that green ash is being wiped out by the emerald ash borer, but common ash was suppose to be the replacement hybrid from what information I found and read. < It appears after doing more digging, none of the ash trees are safe. So I guess I will be REMOVING all the ash trees from my list. > FYI - supposedly someone in Lansing thinks they may have solved the issue and are just waiting to confirm. So for now I will just be patient.

7.) Black Alder - Good catch and im scratching it off the list. TY

Ran out of time today, so i will look the rest over later. I will put the other tree list up later when I get a chance.

Cloud, I'm not up to date with all that has been said here, but I noticed a reference in your last post to Austrian pine and bark beetles. Let me tell you then, the issues with that pine species in the east are not bark beetles-so far anyway-but rather, a group of pathogens that has been pretty much ruining the tree in many eastern areas. These diseases-Dothistroma, Diplodia, and one or two I'm not thinking of at the moment-make this a poor choice compared to some other "hard" pines.

At the risk of going off-topic, the OP sounds like Donald Trump to me. More knowledgeable, perhaps, but same dismissive arrogance. Show of hands on this?

As I've lamented a few times, my parents had a lot of black pine (not sure if they were Austrian Pine or Japanese Black Pine) and they all died. The landscaper blamed turpentine beetles. My understanding was that turpentine beetles spread disease to pines, the way mosquitoes spread malaria to people, and Austrian pine were particularly susceptible. wisconsitom, was the landscaper incorrect?

Austrian pine tend to look great when young but self destruct at a certain age.

The pine problems aren't nearly as well publicized as EAB or Asian Longhorn Beetle...hard to find local information.

Eastern White Pine (pinus strobus) is the most disease resistant pine in Zone 5. Grows fast. You probably have a few on site already.

If you are looking for an Ash replacement, American Mountain Ash isn't affected by EAB. (Because it isn't really an ash or remotely related to ash) Ornamental good for birds. Kinda prone to minor diseases and insects.

Ed, I can't speak directly to a case I had no involvement in, but in my part of the world-roughly analogous to yours-it is fungal pathogens taking the Austiran pine off the "good" list, not beetles, nor insects of any type. YMMV...or rather, what goes on in your area may vary from what holds true in mine.

There are two things I have to say at this time.

One is about the nature of growing things for sale, and the second is about the nature of people and opinions.

First, start that notebook. If you are going to be trying to grow something for sale, you are going to have a learning curve, and the things you think you know now are going to be things that in a short time are going to cause you to laugh, cry, or drink. There are other reasons for starting this notebook...sometimes, the difference between success or failure of a crop is minute, and may take months to be apparent. How good is your memory, in the midst of everything else live throws your way.

Second, trying to get your land to provide an income is difficult at best. it's far more work than you think it's going to be. And trying to grow a nursery crop may be more challenging than most. That is the extent of my admonition. Beyond that, I wish you the best, and I'll answer questions to the best of my ability, to the extent that I have time available.

This thread has been revealing about how people choose to answer questions. Not that most threads aren't, if you take the time to compare people's responses over time. This thread has had people make some revealing statements in a very compressed time frame.

edlincoln(6A) /beng12(z6 west Md) /wisconsitom / wisconsitom(Zone 4/5)

1.) Austrian Pine - Ok enough of you are saying bad Choice, so its gone.

8.) Black Locust - This is indeed invasive. Its the same as honey locust except no thorns and different color wood and flowers. I wouldve wanted to keep all these honey locust trees, if they didnt have those huge poker. But there are 3 logical reasons why I decided to keep it.

A - This tree has great erosion control abilities in wetlands.
B - Its wood value (rot resistant/ dense/ nice grain) is excellent along with its growth rate. Need alot of post. It can try to be as invasive as it wants. Also
C - Im a pretty heavy Halloween decorator, and these are the creepest looking live trees ive seen.

9.) Atlas Cedar - Just going to plant 3. If they dont make it, no big deal, I will grow something else.

Substitutions:
Not bad trees, but other trees are better choices

1.) English Oak - I agree with what your saying and will only grow 12 of these and mix them in. If they dont make it then I will put something else in its place.

2.) Red Pine - I dont disagree, but we have these trees on the property upnorth and the kids went through the trouble of getting the seeds out of the cones. Plus the rest of the family members are sentimental over them and if giving them a few trees will allow me to do some of my future products, then I will bite the bullet.

3) Red Maple - I think the difference from what I been reading is one produces soft maple wood and the other produces Hard maple wood. Regardless though, the rest of the family members each picked out their own favorite maple trees and the rest of this answer is the same as the answer for Red Pine.

4.) European Beech

Im planting for wood purposes and wildlife, so im planting both.

Additions:

1.) Tupelo (Nyssa Sylvatica) - Everything on the list is being planted except for things with a line through it or a X next to it. Obviously this will be planted.

2.) American Holly - I believe this is on the decorative tree list.

3. ) Did you say there was another list of flowering trees? I'd like to see that. - Granted - you have been extremely helpful and would appreciate additional feedback! Will put the other 2 list up in about 10 minutes.
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/beng12(z6 west Md) - TY very much for posting pictures and giving me confirmation of the loblolly x pitch / Arizona Cypress / Loblolly / and Pondarosa pine. I really appreciate that!
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kitasei(6b lower Hudson Valley, NY) - Yeah, I cant disagree with what your saying. But my arrogance is based off of logic/proof/OCD that is coming from lots of people experts in the fields giving me the same information, forcing my stances. So if there is no logic/proof/or a group of people to back a claim, then yes my mind will not change easily.
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waynedanielson -
1st - I dont do notebooks. They fill up too fast.
2nd - But I do have 56 word documents with around 200 pages for various things to jot/remember. 423 excel documents highly detailed for various list. Just know that I am doing what your saying, except on a pc. I got my hands in lots of cookie jars and I like to keep everything organized for reference purposes.

Flowering Tree group - Now I have a feeling some of these trees are bad, but I was getting so sick and tired of looking at trees that I decided to just make a list. And never got back to researching each tree in detail. I already do know some are invasive. Like the royal empress one. Regardless I have the perfect place to put it where it cant spread fast. Down in the valley where the wind Does Not Blow. If theres any details to note, Please tell me so I may put a note next to them.

Decorative Trees - Yes I know way too many Maples! Recommendations welcome!