Sorry forgot to attach layout!

I think it's a bad idea. No oven should be in that location. Here's the nkba recommendation:

What is the doorway to the left of the oven? And is there any flexibility in the layout of that wall where you have the fridge and oven?

BTW, I too have been trying to get information about a recommended side clearance for this oven. I'll let you know if I find out anything.

I have these ovens. Although opening the doors 90 degrees is enough to slide the racks out, you really need to be able to get the doors completely out of the way so you have elbow room to lift your pot or roaster out of the oven without getting your arm burnt by the door. If your layout can't accommodate the full range of the doors, I would strongly advise planning for conventional wall ovens.

I have both these ovens and a very similar arrangement. I have the ovens with the hinge side on the right (so if open, it blocks entrance to that hall). I have not had an issue with that being a safety thing -- although I have had to glare at a kid or 2 when I was in the process of taking something out and they wanted to get by. ;-) Your wall might jut out a bit more than mine though. I can open the door as wide as I want.

A few notes of interest: I have a SxS fridge. While we weren't in the habit of opening its door all the way before, it happens now and there is a mark on the fridge where it "hits" the oven handle if opened too far. It's more like a blemish, not even a dent. While I do very much like the side swing option with the ovens, they haven't been trouble free. The electronics have gotten "confused" a few times - enough that Bosch came in and switched them out for me. Since then, they have frozen once or twice, but not nearly as bad as before. (Before repair, my oven turned had started to turn itself on.) So far, I am able to unfreeze the electronics by flipping the breaker switch in the basement. When the Bosch repairman was here, he did say that they had been having issues with the electronics for this oven and Bosch was trying to remedy that. I bought the ovens in March 2015... installed in June 2015. The repair occurred in the fall sometime.

I just pulled up my reveal thread. There is a not-so-great picture of the fridge/oven/hallway area. If you'd like a better picture, let me know and I can take one. http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3530350/if-i-wait-for-perfection-itll-never-occur-2-toned-kitchen-reveal

hth,

Colleen

I, too, have had electronics panel difficulties with these ovens, though I have not sought service as of yet. After I have used my ovens and they are off and cooling, my upper oven will beep "convect bake on", then beep off several seconds later. This happens multiple times while the ovens are cooling. I would have to press " enter" for the oven to actually start to heat, so this is more of a nuisance than anything else, though if this feature can beep on all by itself, why not others?

I do love my ovens, but this has definitely been a downer for me. I have had them installed for almost two months. Eliasgrace, perhaps some additional research might be in order before dropping $$$ on these!

KimLadin -- thank you! Let me know if you hear of anything regarding recommended clearance.

Colleen -- thank you for the link to your reveal! Beautiful kitchen!! And I think your cardboard island was pure genius : ). Side note -- do you still not think the Karbon was worth the extra $$? Thinking of getting it for my prep sink. Clean up sink with have pull down or pull out. Anyway, back to the ovens -- Your wall juts out much less than ours will, I think. If you have time, could you post a better picture of that area? That would be amazing. Our entrance will be a sliding door entrance to the mudroom. DH really wants the sliding door in place to be able to hide the mudroom mess when we need to. So...we will need that little bit of wall there so that the door can be a standard size.

Prideofowner and Colleen -- question for you both -- if you had to do it again, would you still purchase the same ovens given the technical glitches? Also, more importantly -- DO THE OVENS BAKE EVENLY???? I might be willing to deal with calling a repairman to fix wonky electronic panels if the ovens bake evenly. I love me some evenly baked cookie trays!

Colleen -- We will have a SxS fridge too and I am prepared for dents : ). I have a feeling that the right swing won't work for us b/c of that little wall. It would be crazy to do the left swing, right? Really interested in your input on this since you have the exact same set up.

Is there a reason you completely ignored what Benjesbride wrote about not having the oven opening where there is a walkway or doorway? That is a SAFETY issue, especially if you have children.

Eliasgrace, if I had seen a post like Colleen's before I bought my ovens, I would have purchased something else! Way too expensive to be glitchy, and it appears this maybe isn't an anomaly but perhaps the norm, if the Bosch repairman is making those comments. Bummer!!! But, the ovens do bake and brown very evenly and I've been very happy with their performance so far!!

cpartist, the reason that I'm not too concerned about the oven opening where there is a hallway is that the door entrance is to the mudroom. This is not an area where kids are going to be roaming back and forth. Also, see lawjedi's post above about kid safety. I normally am very risk averse when it comes to safety but this doesn't particularly concern me.

Thanks prideofowner for the feedback on evenness. It has taken me a long time to settle on this oven b/c I really want to avoid blue porcelain but still want a decent oven. Glad to know you're happy with the performance.

The nkba guideline is not just for safety for people walking through the kitchen, but also for the person taking something heavy out of the oven. You should consider the ergonomics of you pulling something out of the oven, turning around and taking two steps to set it on the nearest counter 4.5 feet away (and leaving the oven door open.) If you're super strong and don't cook anything heavy no problem, but I'm a 5'8" and pretty strong woman and I've been quite thankful for landing space right next to my oven for heavy turkeys, etc.

Is this kitchen in the works, or have the cabinets been installed?

prideofowner and lawjedi -- Since you have these ovens, I would be very interested to hear what you think is a good, comfortable side-clearance distance. My installation will be something like this:

I'm not sure how much room to leave between the oven and the wall on the right. (I'll fill the space with a cabinet or filler, based on the size, but I don't want it to be larger than necessary.)

Any suggestions?

Ok you guys, I am really beginning to see that this is not the best location for the ovens. Thanks cpartist and benjesbride for that gentle nudge : ). How about if I moved the double pantry to the current oven location, then moved the oven down to the current fridge location, and moved the fridge to the current double pantry location? The only downside is that the fridge will be far from my prep area. Also it would be located right behind the island seats which could cause potential traffic jams? Island is going to be just a bit longer than what's shown in the pic below.

It's not really clear in the pic above b/c of the angle, but the island would extend to half the length of the fridge if we moved it to where the double pantry is currently.

I'm glad we were able to nudge you. :) Just think of trying to pull that 18 lb turkey out of the oven at Thanksgiving time and having no where nearby to put it down. :)

I would divide the pantry into two pullouts. One framing each side as indicated. I'd move the ovens to behind the seating as you use your ovens less than you'll be using your fridge. You want your fridge nearer your prep sink. Is it still 100% ideal? No but it's a heck of a lot better and as long as you're aware of it, I think it should work fine. Also now you can get the side door benchmark, which I was drooling over a few months ago.One more thing I did was move the prep sink down so you have at least 15-18" closer to the cooktop. With such a big island, why have the sink so close to the edge?

Thanks cpartist, I really appreciate your help and your drawings! This is such a hard decision for me...and sacrifices have to be made, I know :(. I actually do use my ovens quite often. And in particular, I like to cook stuff on the stove top and finish under the broiler...so to imagine walking all that way with a hot skillet to get to the ovens, meanwhile bypassing folks sitting at the island...hmmmm. The drawing above doesn't reflect it (b/c it's an old layout) but the new island will have three seats facing the kitchen window. I know I have to weigh that against having the ovens right next to the mudroom entrance!

Colleen can you comment on whether it's been difficult not having a landing area right next to your oven? Seems to me we have very similar kitchen layouts.

Kim Laden, here is a picture of my oven opened approximately the spacing of my adjacent 18" cabinet. I have never had to open it this far, but it will hopefully give you some idea of what you need for spacing!

How about putting the ovens nearer the cooktop like so?

Thanks, prideofowner! That's interesting that you've never opened it that far. How far would you say is a good distance to open it?

Thanks cpartist! So sorry to be working from this old layout bc the cooktop wall has changed.....I will actually have a 24" rangetop and a 30" induction cooktop separated by 3 inches on that wall so doesn't leave much room for an oven stack unfortunately. But if there was room that would be absolutely perfect!!

By the way, Happy Mother's Day to all who apply :)!

eliasgrace - I am completely feeling your pain. I'm having similar issues trying to figure out my arrangement as well.

One other idea... You could put a tall cabinet with a strong pull-out shelf to the left of the ovens, and use that shelf when needed for oven landing space. I know Hafele and Richlieu make this kind of thing.

Sorry guys... I didn't realize more posts came in... so let me see if I can answer some questions. First... more pics.

better shot - of fridge/ovens/hall entrance

my wall is almost 1 inch out from cabinets... but I DIDN'T want the optional flush install of ovens, so my ovens are just a bit (fraction of an inch) protruding from wall

it does not impede opening the door AT ALL. that being said, I don't think I've ever opened the door wider than this:

landing spot is not an issue at all. Everything goes on that counter right there.... if something is super heavy, the racks can pull out (I only really pull it out if heavy)... and then it's just a tiny hop to the counter. As far as safety is concerned, I have 4 kids -- the youngest is 9. My kitchen has 6, yes 6, traffic openings. Avoiding the traffic pattern is impossible. This is the main thoroughfare from the garage/mudroom/pantry/office. Yes, they've had to wait for me to close the oven from time to time... but everything is very easy to see - no coming around a corner and being surprised the oven is open. To be honest, this feels far safer to me than when my stove opened down low close to the ground -- I'd be bent over and unstable as I lifted things out of the oven.

as a bonus, I have to say that I LOVE what I did with these 2 drawers... I made a 2 drawer stack - super deep drawers. They've been so functional -- I made the drawers super deep for my big cast iron pan. Unfortunately that wasn't deep enough - I ended up putting it flat in the small drawer under cooktop (see reveal)-- but I was left with 2 awesome catch all drawers right where I needed them.

yes, that's an instant pot pressure cooker with the lid resting on it... it fits in the drawer!!!

ok. questions.

Kohler Karbon. hmm. that's a toughie. Dh just installed the tap master for me today! Happy Mother's day. I haven't come to love the Karbon for its functionality. a pullout/pull down with a good reach might have been preferred in hindsight. But aesthetically I really think the Karbon works for us. It's got a nice style that keeps the kitchen a bit edgy and doesn't get in the way of my gorgeous window view. I never came to the point where the water dripping on the joy stick didn't bother me - so that's why we've upped the investment to adding the tap master. We'll see. I've been enjoying playing with it today. I'd say if you have a faucet with a large reach that you like, go for it. The Karbon is very expensive to feel wishy-washy over.

right swing/left swing. I would NOT like my ovens with a left swing opening. I think that would kill the easy landing flexibility. So if your wall juts out too much for it to work, nope.

ovens. I have had zero complaints about it's actual usage -- even baking :-). I really wish we haven't had issues - but when I was researching their purchase, I couldn't find a "perfect" appliance out there. I was considering these and the electrolux ovens. I went for the side swing door and a nice package bonus - also did bosch cooktop and dw. Would I buy them again? I don't know. I'm quite happy to not have to make that choice now. I drove both myself and my dh crazy during that stage of kitchen planning.

kim ladin -- see my pictures. I have no filler. it still works. but if your wall pulls out, maybe a 3" filler? Check with your kitchen person/cabinet person for specs.

elias grace - I wouldn't like my fridge to be buried the way you mentioned. Especially if it is backing into island seating. The arrangement I have really works FOR ME. It might not be ideal for others, but it does work. I think my landing counter is a tiny bit closer though (remember, I have almost no wall jutting out) ok. just measured. it's 39.5 inches from the face frame of the oven cabinet to the landing counter.

I **think** I got to all the questions. I'll try to check back sooner this time. :-)

~Colleen

Thanks, Colleen! In that picture that's as far as you ever open the oven door, I can't tell from the angle how far past the right edge of the oven it's open. Could you give me an estimate?

I just opened the oven up... you can pull out the oven racks when the door is at a 90 degree angle. only the handle protrudes past the hinge point --- and the handle is under 2" (1.75 deep)

Thank you Colleen (AKA. ANGEL IN DISGUISE)!!! Thank you for all the photos and the incredibly helpful info!! On Mother's Day of all days, when you should be relaxing and basking in the servanthood of your four children, you're sitting there typing away, helping a stranger out. Cpartist, and everyone else too, seriously you all have restored my faith in humanity : ). Sorry to be so dramatic but I truly appreciate you guys.

Colleen, is the reason you didn't want the flush install of your ovens so that that your ovens doors would be able open all the way? Is there any other reason NOT to do a flush install?

My wall is going to just out way more than yours so unfortunately can't do the right swing, and I'm seeing now that the left swing would not be a good idea either. How would you feel about a traditional pull-down double oven in your current oven location????? The counter behind my ovens will be a little over 4 ft away, so there should be some wiggle room to pull down the door and maneuver to the landing space?

Also thank for the feedback on the Karbon! I agree, the aesthetics are pretty unique. Our kitchen will lean toward the modern side so it would fit in perfectly. I will have a tapmaster as well so hoping it will work well for my prep sink. Hope you're enjoying your tapmaster today! What a great Mother's day gift : ).

Kim Ladin, I'm going to think seriously about that tall cabinet to make the right swing work. It would mean decreasing the cabinet length in the undercounter fridge run or decreasing the double pantry. I hope you find a good solution to your dilemma as well!

I will actually have a 24" rangetop and a 30" induction cooktop

Before you decide you need both instead of one 36" induction cooktop, I'd suggest asking the question in the appliance forum. The few people who have had both wound up using only the induction cooktop 99% of the time. Additionally if you have an outdoor grill, couldn't that substitute for the 2 or 3 things you can't do on induction?

Having a single 36" induction cooktop would save you tons of space and money and allow your ovens to be next to your cooktop. (That is what I'm doing. I'm having my oven, then a 44" space, then my cooktop.)

cpartist, I am definitely going to use the gas. Only b/c of the burner space. I would love to have an 48" induction cooktop but it just doesn't exist. I cook for 20-30 people on a regular basis and a 36" cooktop just won't cut it. I toyed with the idea of 36" induction + 15" gas hob but I prefer open burner and there is no 15" open burner gas hob.

I chose not to install flush cuz it looked too modern to me. My kitchen is a mix of traditional with a few modern quirks. The flush install looks far more modern than I can get away with aesthetically.

side swing vs. drop down. definitely would only use a right swing in your space. Can you put a teeny amount of filler between oven cabinet and wall? I wonder if installing it in a 33" cabinet vs. 30" cabinet would suffice? If you notice my post to Kim Ladin above, the racks can completely pull out with the door opened 90 degrees... so you only need room for the handle of 1.75 inches. Would I want a drop down oven there? I chose the side swing due to back issues. A drop down would work there, but with the side swing, I think you have more standing choices - I can stand directly in front of oven without leaning over that door. Or I can stand to the side of the oven. With a drop down, I think you can only stand to the side in that position. Would there be room to have the door down, your body and then your landing counter? Plus that would be a 180 swivel rotation to put down your things. I think it's probably workable, but thinking through the motions is not a bad idea.

cpartist, I am definitely going to use the gas. Only b/c of the burner space. I would love to have an 48" induction cooktop but it just doesn't exist. I cook for 20-30 people on a regular basis and a 36" cooktop just won't cut it.

No it definitely won't. :)

So why not put a space between the fridge and the ovens so you have counters on either side of both? Notice now you can have a side opening oven and it's only 1 or 2 more steps from the cooktop than if you had it in the corner. The

Cpartist, not a bad idea! I like how there's plenty of landing space in your most recent drawing, both for the fridge and the ovens.

Colleen, thanks for your input about the drop down oven. The side swing seems the most "back" friendly for sure. I have back issues myself! Also, great suggestion about the 33" cabinet...maybe that will do the trick?

You guys have given me a lot to think about...thank you for your input!

Eliasgrace, what did you end up doing? I'm having the same conundrum as you are as I order my ovens now.

Eliasgrace what did you end up doing? Seems a shame to go through all this and not see the end result?

I know this is an old thread, but I figured it might reach owners of Bosch side-swing wall ovens. We're about to install one next to a short wall and are trying to decide how far the door needs to be able to to open to be safe. We can add a filler between the oven and wall to increase the opening angle. We know it can work at 90 degrees. We also guess that it will feel a lot safer if it can open more, but we don't know how much more.

So to owners of these ovens: how wide do you open the door in everyday use? Do you worry about burning yourself when the door is open?

@Thor Hammer I'm interested in the answer to your question as well. We're thinking of installing one at a right angle to a window with just 3 inches of clearance between them.