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Are these the blind shoots ?

Anna
July 13, 2016
last modified: July 13, 2016

My Grande Dame is about 4x3 foot. I got the new flush and only see 4 buds forming, the rest stems look like this below. Are those the blind shoots?

And the other stem

Comments (8)

  • Samuel Adirondack NY 4b5a

    I fertilize with compost. I make alfalfa tea compost tea. Once in awhile I use a Tea spoon of fish/seaweed. I don't use any fertilizer with nitrogen or manure. Could be high nitrogen causes a lot of growth and no roses. I have plenty of nitrogen in the compost and the alfalfa tea. Also I have a lot of nitrogen fixer plants in my garden. I had a great spring flush. It's possible temperature might cause the blind shoots. Nobody knows for sure. Those pictures look like great healthy summer plants.

    Oh I forgot to say I use Rock Phosphate every 5 years. I am real careful to not use too much because then I get too many roses and not enough leaves.

    Anna thanked Samuel Adirondack NY 4b5a
  • strawchicago

    Anna: The second to last is blind-shoot, with a black-center. The last pic. has "tiny ears" at the base, indicative of "blind-shoot". Here's a pic. from the below site of "blind-shoot", which should be pruned off. Note the black center:

    The below site stated: " This shoot has stipules, or the tiny “ears” at the base of the petioles, coming out of the stem in almost the same place and a shoot that seems to have died off in the center.

    https://bluerosegardening.com/2013/07/07/keep-your-roses-blooming-prolifically-pruning-blind-buds-or-blind-shoots/

    *** From Straw: When I see a shoot with a "black center" I always chop it off, it's blind shoot. With roses grafted on Dr. Huey, brutal pruning is needed. Dr. Huey is a climber, really good in picking up nitrogen (air is composed of 78% nitrogen) .. just air and soil bacteria alone is enough to make Dr. Huey a monster.

    Folks here never fertilizer Dr.Huey's take-over, but He gets over 10 feet, and don't bloom unless winter-killed to below the knee.

    Here's the pruning guidelines from David Austin catalog for roses grafted on Dr. Huey: prune 18 inch. off after flowering. After the 1st flowering, cut off at least 5 leaves. After the 2nd flowering, cut off at least 2 leaves.

    I used to get blind-shoots on Golden Celebration (a climber), then I switched to high-potassium red-lava-rock (with acidic rain-water), or sulfate of potash/gypsum for alkaline-tap, and no more blind-shoot. I also notice that some potting soil like MiracleGro put too much nitrogen-fertilizer-granules .. so it's tons of leaves for the first 6 months, until the nitrogen get leached off.

    For that reason I buy Jungle-Juice Organic potting soil, zero fertilizer added, really don't like the salty chemical fertilizer added to potting soil. I can control the growth better with just sulfate of potash/gypsum.

    Anna thanked strawchicago
  • Anna

    They are dry, dark brown inside



  • Samuel Adirondack NY 4b5a

    Rose midge. I had to put plastic around the base of the roses last year to protect the soil from the rose midge. Three of my roses had the rose midge. I don't have any this year.

    Anna thanked Samuel Adirondack NY 4b5a
  • strawchicago

    Anna: The pics. you posted recently are all blind-shoots. Now it's evening time so I can see better. Also the 1st pic. you posted this morning is a blind shoot, same with the picture preceded by "And the other stem" title.

    Also Sam's suggestion of rose midge is good .. I never have rose midge in pots, but I had rose midge one time in the ground (wet spring & partial shade & loamy soil on top). Rose midge doesn't like it too dry nor flooding wet .. with your roses in pots, in CA hot weather .. and IF it's always dry on top like my pots .. the chance of rose midge is slim. Some pics. of rose midges from the Internet:



    Another reason for blind shoots:

    Manganese deficiency as black dying of new tips: "Manganese: Symptoms of a deficiency can include necrosis spots on leafs and black necrosis of new tips."

    http://www.cannaversity.com/cannaversity/article.php?id=101

    Manganese is rampant in my alkaline clay (pH near 8) and alkaline tap water (pH near 9) .. folks in CA report the same alkalinity. Manganese is just as important as iron for roses. Manganese is abundant in decomposed-pine-bark. The most flowers I had seen was a rose in a pot at Home Depot, filled with composted pine-bark chips and lime to neutralize its acidity.

    Foods high in manganese are: pecans & nuts ... that explained for a recent report of pecan-shells was fantastic for roses.

    What helped me with flowering for pots was "Bloom formula" high in phosphorus & low in nitrogen, plus trace elements like Manganese, copper, zinc (all are needed for flowering) .. but I use only 1/2 dose to avoid phosphorus overdose, then supplement with sulfate of potash/gypsum.

    There's an inverse relationship between manganese and iron. UP the iron, and manganese is less available. Also UP the boron, and manganese is less available. For that reason I no longer use molasses (at 20% iron, zero manganese). Molasses is great for soil deficient in iron, but my soil is deficient in manganese.

    I did cause a bunch of blind-shoots just like the 1st pic. you post, and the recent ones .. that's when I tested fermented alfalfa-tea, plus UP the molasses in watering. That greened up roses in alkaline clay, but caused blind-shoots in my 2 roses in pots, these shoots got infested with rose-slugs, so I pruned them off, and a healthy shoot with a bud sprouted (will post a pic.)

    The most blooms I achieved for my alkaline clay (deficient in manganese) was when I mixed pine-barks with alkaline clay. I got 40+ blooms per flush on Firefighter, Liv Tyler, and Frederic Mistral. Didn't use molasses whatsoever, just alfalfa meal & sulfate of potash & gypsum. The second most bloom is when I put cracked corn in the planting hole, at 25% iron and 40% manganese, plus zinc and copper for flowering.

    The ratio of nutrients is important. Re-post what U. of CA found in rose-tissue: http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7465.html

    "For low-ratios, it would be 3 Nitrogen, 2 Potassium, and 0.2 Phosphorus, plus 1 Calcium and 0.25 magnesium. For ppm it would be 50 iron, 30 manganese, 30 boron, 15 zinc, and 5 copper."

    From Straw: Magnesium is needed in 1/8 the amount of potassium, and 1/4 the amount of calcium. Phosphorus is needed in 1/10 of potassium. Manganese is the second most vital trace-element after iron for flowering in roses. Manganese is least available in dry & hot weather and with alkaline tap water.

    Anna thanked strawchicago
  • strawchicago

    Anna: The Lily Miller for roses has trace elements for blooming: manganese, zinc, copper, and boron. But it's too hot & dry to use granular now, unless you find a way to dissolve that in water first.

    That's why I suggested Bloom-Booster such as MG SOLUBLE NPK 10-52-10 at 1/2 dose. I had success using that with 20+ own-roots in 2012 in pots in hot & dry weather, getting 15 blooms on tiny-own-root Sonia Rykiel in a dinky plastic pot. The bloom-booster I used was salty chemical .. isn't best. I'm testing an Organic SOLUBLE fertilizer right now.

    Bloom-Booster at $5 as soluble-fertilizer was fantastic for my petunia in pot, with many-times thicker root, and it did help with more blooms in roses if used at 1/2 dose, to make it NPK 5-25-5, plus trace elements like manganese. See below:

    https://www.amazon.com/Miracle-Gro-Water-Soluble-Booster-Flower/dp/B00004RADF/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1468552789&sr=8-4&keywords=bloom+booster+fertilizer

    Peter's professional bloom-booster is better rated than MG-bloom-booster, it's NPK is 10-30-20, more potassium, plus lower-salt formula, has trace elements added.

    https://www.amazon.com/Peters-Classic-10-30-20-Blossom-Fertilizer/dp/B00JDRWE0K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1468553182&sr=8-1&keywords=peters+professional+bloom+booster

    I would pay $5 more to get Peter's Blossom booster, since it's much lower in salt. MG-bloom-booster has muriate of potash at 120 salt index !!

    Alkaline tap water zaps out potassium 1st, then phosphorus, so Bloom-booster high in phosphorus & trace elements help, but best use at 1/2 dose.

    Lilly Miller for roses: Chicken manure, alfalfa meal, ammonium sulfate, ammonium phosphate, sulfate of potash, calcium and sodium borate, Ferrous, Manganese and zinc oxides, sodium molybdate. NPK 5-8-4, with 4% calcium, 4% sulfur, and 0.1% iron.

    Here's info. on trace elements of manures by University of Wisconsin:

    "Average concentrations for 87 dairy, 10 swine and 24 poultry manure samples are in Table 1. Swine and poultry manure contained similar amounts of Zn (zinc), Cu (Copper) and Mn (Manganese) and was approximately 10-100 times higher than in dairy manure ... Swine and poultry manure also contained about 10 times more Selenium than Dairy."

    Anna thanked strawchicago
  • strawchicago

    Anna: Forget to tell you that high-phosphorus works for wimpy own-roots which are like tiny alfafa-sprouts, but Dr.Huey-huge woody root doesn't need to get bigger with high-phosphorus, esp. when it's in a pot.

    I look at the trace elements for manganese in MG-bloom-Booster at NPK 15-30-15, very disappointed at MG's low trace-elements: 0.02 boron, 0.07 copper, 0.15 iron, 0.05 manganese, and 0.06% zinc.

    Peter's-Blossom-Fertilizer at NPK 10-30-20 is also low in trace-elements: 0.5 magnesium, 0.02 boron, 0.05 copper, 0.10 iron, 0.05 manganese, and 0.05% zinc.

    Twenty years ago I grew tomato in a pot, using MG Soluble NPK 20-20-20 & tiny trace elements, that was a joke: plant so tall, too many leaves and very little fruit. Now I grow tomato in alkaline clay, with Tomato-Tone NPK 3-4-6 (mostly chicken manure) in the planting hole .. with short & compact plants and tons of fruits.

    So the success of soluble-fertilizer got to do with its SOLUBLE phosphorus, which works for wimpy own-roots, but may not work for Dr.Huey-rootstock (which is already huge). The rose park nearby use high-phosphorus fertilizer on their roses (grafted-on-Dr.Huey) and it worked for landscape-single-petal, but stingy hybrid-tea, and really stingy Austin roses.

    Phosphorus promotes branching both above, and at root-level. But Dr.Huey-rootstock in a pot doesn't have the room to branch out, so it's useless. Also Dr.Huey rootstock is a woody-stick straight down, and it's not a cluster root like petunia or marigolds .. which benefited greatly from high-phosphorus-soluble.

    Phosphorus as soluble-fertilizer worked well with wimpy own-roots (look like alfalfa sprouts) that's to promote branching of tiny-own-roots, plus branching above to make fuller & round bush.

    I already tried SOLUBLE fertilizer high in phosphorus & low in salt in my clay .. didn't work but crystallized my clay and made it harder. It's more efficient to supply acid from above (like decayed alfalfa) to release tied-up phosphorus due to high pH, than adding chemical phosphorus.

    Here's an excerpt from below link:

    http://passel.unl.edu/pages/informationmodule.php?idinformationmodule=1130447043&topicorder=2&maxto=15

    "Adding phosphorus to soil low in available phosphorus promotes root growth and winter hardiness, stimulates tillering, and often hastens maturity.

    Plants deficient in phosphorus are stunted in growth and often have an abnormal dark-green color. Sugars can accumulate and cause anthocyanin pigments to develop, producing a reddish-purple color. This can sometimes be seen in early spring on low phosphorus sites."

    Anna thanked strawchicago
  • strawchicago

    Anna: I look at your last few pics. again, and it's boron deficiency, rather than manganese. Chicken manure has decent boron. Boron deficiciency is common in alkaline soil & alklaine water. One fruit-orchard owner got a soil test, supplied needed boron, and witnessed a big jump in fruit-production.

    I didn't fertilize my peach tree, and most years it was really stingy in fruits. Then I used Lily Miller with acid & chicken-manure, and got the most peaches in over a decade. Just a tiny bit of boron can make a big difference in flowering.

    The cluster of leaves (witches' broom) is typical of boron deficiency. Boron is needed in very small amount. Bloom Booster SOLUBLE fertilizer has only 0.02 % of boron, but red-lava is very high in boron. I'm using red-lava in my garden and the blooming is fantastic in all flowers (perenials & roses & tomato), if there's acid to dissolve the red-lava.

    See info. on red-lava in my new thread "Rock, herbs, kelp ..."

    Boron Deficiency:

    Caused by:
    - High pH.
    - Increased Nitrogen, Calcium and Potassium levels.
    - Soil low in organic matter.
    - Dryness.
    - Easily washed away in sandy soils.

    Symptoms:
    - Young leaves become irregularly shaped, thicker (especially around their tip) and dark green.
    - Extensive stem necrosis.
    - Terminal bud necrosis.
    - Affected root growth.
    - Decreased flower and seed production.
    - Short internodes.
    - Witches' broom.

    Anna thanked strawchicago

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