Straw: how much of red lava rock do You apply for potted roses? I have Vigoro decorative red lava rock available at Home Depot

Anna: I bought that Vigoro brand and tried to crush it, it was a pain. So I bought small bits for bonsai on Amazon for $10 (tiny bag which used up on 4 roses !!). Big Viogro bag at Home Depot is cheap $5, but hard to crush.

Trace elements like boron is needed in tiny amount. Wood-ash has boron, high in zinc, but high pH over 11. Khalid uses 2 part vinegar to 1 part wood ash to fertilize his roses. I listed the trace elements for wood ash in "Mineral Deficiency thread".

Bluegirl in Texas said she got lava-sand cheap at local nursery. The smallest particle is best, esp. for your alkaline soil & water.

I have rain-barrel which I throw a few red lava rock to dissolve. Rain water is acidic at pH 5.6 which dissolve red-lava well, and dissolve Azomite well. Both minerals are alkaline at pH over 8. If I have pots in hot & dry California with alkaline tap water, some ways I might do for trace-elements:

1) Mix red-lava-sand (pH 8.2) with cracked corn (pH 4) soaked in alkaline tap water. The acidity of cracked corn will break down the red-lava into SOLUBLE nutrients. Used lemons is safer than vinegar too .. I never wilt any plants with used lemons, but I wilted plenty with vinegar. Red-lava needs an acidic agent to release its minerals.

2) Put dry lentils on top of pots. It's only $1 per bag. Lentils is acidic (I already tested its pH: around 5, lower than rain-water). Lentils is high in potassium, magnesium, manganese, zinc, copper which potting soil lacks. But Lentils don't have boron. However, prune and raisins are high in boron, and will lower high pH tap if a blender is used to pureed them. This second approach sounds crazy, but acid is the best way to release minerals to plants, if there's no rain-water. I plan to test this second approach on a really pale & stingy own-root.

I will try nr 1. How often would you water with the mix nr1?

The last time I put 4 pieces of big-red-lava rocks in my 50 gallon rain-barrel, they dissolve within a week (the water was reddish). 7 days of watering with that was enough to get Betty White to pump out 3rd flush immediately. I stopped sulfate of potash & molasses on Betty White after it browned her petals for 1st flush.

Dee-lish and Munstead Wood gave these "cluster-bunch-up-leaves & blind-shoot" just like your pics. with too much molasses. So I stopped that & pruned off the broom-blind-shoot, and gave them "red-lava-water" for 7 days, and Munstead wood got a bud (first time in 2 months). I put Dee-lish in my clay (pre-made months ago with cracked corn & red-lava), she broke out in 5 buds.

I think Khalid's approach is best, considering that wood-ash dissolve faster than big-chunk-lava. Wood-ash has 15% calcium, 2.6% potassium & 1 % magnesium. For ppm 0.84 iron, 0.53 phosphorus, 0.41 manganese, 123 boron, 70 copper, and 233 zinc.

Wood-ash is low in iron, but VERY HIGH IN boron, at 123 and high in zinc at 233. I tested ground clove (spice) as manganese today on a few pale roses .. will report the result later.

Anna: just saw your message of putting red-lava-sand & cracked corn on top of pots .. that's even better !! Slow and gradual release is best for trace elements. When I checked on boron, the site stated that too much boron is even more toxic than too little. I like that approach of putting stuff on top on pots, and let the water leach down tiny amount of trace-elements.

I've been putting leaf mold on my pots which is full of worms. They make the soil so friable the roots explode filling the pots so quickly. I was worried it would steal nitrogen, since it's not yet compost, but it doesn't appear to be the case. I also much by beds with leaf mold over a layer of compost to suppress weeds. It breaks down quickly and so far my roses and other plants seem to be doing well. Any thought on what this method might be contributing? I hate to stop something that's working.

Vaporvac: I have 26 trees, never fertilizer them except when I first bought them as tiny babies (less than 1 foot). Some lose their leaves yearly, yet they grow taller than my 2-story house. Air is composed of 78% nitrogen. Leaves fall down, and feed bacteria that fix nitrogen. NPK of apple leaves is : 1.0/0.15/0.4. Bacteria is more efficient in fixing nitrogen than any chemical fertilizer.

Anna: thanks to you I solved the problem of my 10 own-roots in pots being stingy (ran out of Tomato-tone & didn't put in the pot). After 3 days of watering with red-lava-rock (potassium & trace elements), plus 1 Tablespoon of ground clove per 2 gallon of water for manganese: Strike it rich broke out in 4 buds, and Munstead Wood threw the biggest shoot (with but).

Amazing how giving roses lacking trace-elements can result in FAST GROWTH & buds. Will post pics. later.

Amazing, I am happy it's been working.

Re-post info. I posted in 2013:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/2134600/fertilizing-your-success-and-why-organics?n=26

Prickles (Bailey) in Antique roses forum posted a super-loaded Young Lycidas rose with 150+ blooms per spring flush IN A POT. He fertilized with salmon bits and shrimp shells.

There's more to seafood than just high phosphorus, salmon is high in B vitamins, including B12, B3, tryptophan, vitamin D, Omega-3 fatty acids .... a total of 80 nutrients.

Can't find NPK of shrimp shell, but I found NPK of lobster shell of 4.6 / 3.52 / 0. Fresh fish has NPK 6.5 / 3.75 / 0 ... also high in phosphorus & nitrogen for blooming. Upon further research, I found that phosphorus needs nitrogen and trace-elements to maximize blooming.

There's more to blooming than the high phosphorus number, there's trace elements, such as boron, zinc, copper, etc. Take horse manure with NPK 0.44 / 0.17 / 0.35, quite low in phosphorus but high in trace elements..

Take leaves such as oak with NPK 0.8 / 0. 35 / 0.15. I have a few roses fertilized with leaves, I never water them for the past 6 years, and they are healthy & bloom well.

Below is a spray of Radio Times rose, fertilized with horse manure and chicken manure last spring. I counted over 40 blooms for a small 2nd-year own-root:

Here is a link that might be useful: NPK chart of Organic fertilizers

Re-post info. I posted in 2013: Found a link on why chicken manure is awesome as fertilizer: it's high in boron, zinc, and copper .... most deficient in alkaline conditions .. folks put minerals in chicken-feed. Some excerpts from link below:

"She told me that no matter how much home-made compost or cover crops they used, they just couldn't get the growth response and production they wanted without bringing in chicken manure from one of the commercial chicken farms in the area. ....Interestingly, although the Phosphorus and Potassium levels were high, they weren't exceptional. It was the Copper, Zinc, and Boron that were through the roof.

Here is a link that might be useful: Soil minerals for Organic garden and chicken manure

seaweed0212

Another example of diluted own chick poo, rescue cl Don Juan $1.99 5gal back in Aug 2004. I am not kidding.

Like Bookmark September 27, 2013 at 2:05PM

Anna: Sharon (Enchantedrose) shared how a nursery in CT (lots of rain) grew roses in pots (grafted on Dr.Huey) .. they fertilized their roses once a month with Rose Tone 4-3-2 (granular), and MG-soluble 20-20-20 once a week.

In hot & dry climate like CA, I would do 1/2 dose of granular once a month, and 1/2 dose of soluble once a week. All-day rain leach out nutrients, but that's not the case with dry & warm CA.

Indoor & shady nursery uses 1/2 teaspoon of NPK 20-10-20 per gallon of water at 3 times a week on tiny seedlings. That's safe guideline for bigger rose in hot full-sun.

Plants can't take too much salty fertilizer in hot weather, but plants benefit greatly from acidic fertilizer to neutralize alkaline tap water. My best fertilizer in hot & dry is cracked-corn (pH 4) on top.

Re-post info. I posted in 2013:

In U. of Kentucky research on Organic Fertilizers & Composts in tomato and pepper seedlings. Their conclusion: Fish emulsion NPK 5-1-1 and Omega 6-6-6 (blood meal, bone meal, sulfate of potash) are effective fertilizers, coming second to chemical fertilizer with higher nutrients NPK 20-10-20. High nitrogen was used due to leaching out from pots.

The best growth was achieved by using Peter's 20-10-20 at 1/2 teaspoon per gallon of water, 3 times a week. This was done in pots & greenhouse environment.

See link below for U. of Kentucky experiment, you see how big the seedlings & dark green leaves with chemical 20-10-20 (sulfate of potash at 20) ... next best is cow manure at pH 4, then alkaline worm casting, and worst is horse manure at pH over 8 (tiny yellowish plants).

NOTE: The stinky cow manure (not limed) has pH 4, but recently all bagged cow manure has quick-lime added to deodorize, and I tested the pH of bagged cow manure to be over 8. That U. of Kentucky used a particular brand of ACIDIC cow manure, no longer available.

Here is a link that might be useful: U. of Kentucky organics and vegetable seedlings

Straw: another wonderful thread. I am learning..

best regards

High nitrogen can hurt root and flowering ability in cotoneaster plant. See excerpt from below link:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0304423881900649

" Although root growth was not increased by either Nitrogen or Phosphorus, high N levels inhibited root growth."

More link to show that too much phosphorus can hurt root & flowering:

https://laidbackgardener.wordpress.com/2016/05/18/the-myth-of-starter-fertilizers/

"further studies showed that large quantities of phosphorous were not necessary for rooting. Yes, the soil must contain a small amount of phosphorus in order to stimulate rooting… but that’s also true of any other nutrient. If the soil totally lacks nitrogen, zinc or iron, that too will hamper rooting. In fact, plants actually root poorly in soils excessively rich in phosphorous. You’re far more likely to kill plant roots with 10-52-10 fertilizer than to stimulate their growth. "

http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/3788/

" When plants are grown in low phosphorus environments they emit organic acids from their root tips. These acids allow mycorrhizal fungi to penetrate the roots and form the networks that assist roots in absorbing water and nutrients. If the phosphorus levels are too high the roots do not emit the acid and the mycorrhizal networks do not form. This forces the plant to put more effort into root growth to compensate for the lack of mycorrhizae."

U. of Colorado Extension has excellent info. on Organic fertilizers: "recent CSU research has shown that phosphorus from bone meal at NPK 3-15-0 is only available to plants in soils that have a pH below 7.0."

On rock phosphate: Recent CSU research results concluded that no rock P (regardless of mesh size) is available for plant use unless the soil pH is below 7.0.

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/mg/gardennotes/234.html

According to CSU, Kelp powder has NPK of 1-0-4, decent potassium, plus trace elements, only need 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon per gallon, due to its high salt.

**** From Straw: I tested bone-meal many times, with negative result in my soil pH near 8.

1) killed over a dozen geraniums by topping with bone-meal in hot summer .. that burnt their roots, but their colors were vivid at first.

2) put bone-meal in the planting hole of Sharifa Asma, the color DID NOT deepen, but really wimpy root, plus the soil got hardened.

3) Killed a $30 gallica rose gifted by a friend with bone-meal in the planting hole.

4) Made Crimson glory really wimpy by putting bone meal in the planting hole.

5) Made wimpy Yves-pink-seedling into a Black-spot fest by moving it, then put bone-meal in the planting hole.

CONCLUSION: phosphorus is best in small amount as in 1/10 of potassium in rose-tissue analysis done by U. of CA at Davis. Phosphorus is best AS soluble, as in leaves, manure. Chicken manure at NPK 5-3-2 has plenty of phosphorus, plus trace elements zinc, copper, and boron.

bump this up regarding ratio of potassium to calcium and phosphorus, see top of post.