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Advice please.. telling Jacques Cartier from Compte de Chambord

I have these two in my pink bed in full sun. One has remained small and defoliates from blackspot and is stingy with rebloom. The other is 3-4ft might get taller if I didn't prune it and black spots a little, but nothing to signify. This one give a good 3 or 4 bloom cycles depending on the weather and if I feed it. i want to replace the unsatisfactory one with another of the good one. Just being sure which is which. They both came from Beales originally if that helps - somewhere saved I have bloom pics. I'm not good enough an eye to tell defintively from foliage. I think the good one is paler and has larger flowers, but that might be to do with the relative vigour of the bushes.

Thoughts?

Comments (12)

  • 9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In my experience JC gets larger than CdC and so thinks my local supplier also. Neither of the two is very good in my climate.

    fduk_gw UK zone 3 (US zone 8) thanked nikthegreek
  • 9 years ago

    H'mm. Yeah, I think even in this climate, they would both like rather more water than they get, placed where they are in sun from sun up to sun down. I suspect even the good one would be more generous with rebloom if I watered it regularly but I resist watering established plants where possible.

  • 9 years ago

    Fwiw Beales also list JC as growing a foot taller than CdC.

    fduk_gw UK zone 3 (US zone 8) thanked nikthegreek
  • 9 years ago

    JC buds look like they have been bitten off. It's ugly, and a lot of people post here asking what to do about the 'insect damage'.

    Aside from that, I agree with everybody else that JC is much healthier and generally a better grower than CdC.

    fduk_gw UK zone 3 (US zone 8) thanked mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)
  • 9 years ago

    How old are they? I have 3 CDC's & 1 JC purchased as Marchesa Boccella that are 4 yrs old. The JC is shaded by a beautyberry on one side & a hazelnut tree on the other, it is marvellous for being in so much shade, flowers are perhaps smaller than they should be but still a lovely rose. The CDC's tested my patience, small & straggly for 3yrs in an excellent location, they are now so much better. I took the 2 weakest & replanted them in one hole & they loved it. The flowers are heavenly. We have fairly high blackspot pressure but neither variety seems to be troubled by it. They do not appreciate companion plants at least not in my garden, I have also read this from several different sources, the CDCs that is.

    Jane

    fduk_gw UK zone 3 (US zone 8) thanked smithdale1z8pnw
  • 9 years ago

    From what I have read about Jacques Cartier, a way to tell is by looking at the leading leaf, which is larger and more elongated than the other leaves on the same shoot. You can see something of that here on my young plant [which I no longer have incidentally]. Also the blooms are not so fine and cabbagey as on CDC, which had the most perfectly shaped blooms, as I remember it, not muddled like 'JC', and a much finer scent...

    'JC'.. this June...

    fduk_gw UK zone 3 (US zone 8) thanked User
  • 9 years ago

    H'mm. Sounds like the 'good' one, (I put it in quotes because I suspect all roses are good for someone, somewhere... even if it's only one person!) is probably JC. Ha. Except mine definitely needs more water, if that's what yours looks like Marlorena, omg. The foliage on mine never looks that sleek. The blooms look right though, as does the high up foliage.

  • 9 years ago

    Which ever one I had was dreadful here. Grows straight up tall, blooms like a lollypop on top, and is so chlorotic in my soil that the foliage looks white and burnt, not green.

    I forgot that happened to which ever one it was when I first planted roses here, and tried it again 15 years later and in another spot. Same thing happened again.

    I do believe that it can be beautiful elsewhere, but not here on my hill overlooking the Valley of Heart's Delight.

    Rosefolly

  • 9 years ago

    I love your picture of Jacques Cartier, Marlorena.

  • 9 years ago

    I have Jacques Cartier here and he does fine -- blooms a lot. I've found I get along with him best when I prune hard (to 1/2 in winter).

  • 9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oldrosarian's photos look like my roses. Both varieties do well for me. What I particularly notice is their different habits. 'Comte de Chambord' (which may actually be 'Mme. Boll') is a Portland type, with upright growth, of moderate height--in my garden, unpampered, it gets about 3' tall--and with the typical Portland "high-shouldered" blooms, sitting upright at the ends of the canes. It's notably fragrant and a good clear rose pink. 'Jacques Cartier' has laxer, taller, more spreading growth.

    P.S. Oldrosarian, your photos are lovely.

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