susanjf_gw

ogrose?

susanjf_gw
August 31, 2016
last modified: August 31, 2016

saw that you're from texas...now I know most can't be walled because of the rio...

have heard that many in texas weren't fond of closing off the border? some 68 years ago (omg) we lived in el paso (very short time as my dad was installing elevators in new va centers) and I know we went over quite often for dinner and shopping...

but what are your feelings?

Comments (99)

  • dublinbay z6 (KS)

    I can't get that stirred up about when an immigrant and descendants learn English--primarily because the descendants will grow up speaking English if they are raised in the USA. By the following generation, they probably won't even know Spanish any more--but so what if they are bi-lingual.

    I grew up in the upper midwest among Norwegian Lutherans--their immigrant ancestors arrived in late 19th century/early 20th century--and the church still held services in Norwegian when I was young. Those people got along fine speaking English in everyday conversations and Norwegian in church and with their older ancestors. The church did finally go all English while I was still very young--I remember the big deal that was made about it, but by that time, the younger generations knew very little Norwegian. They were English speakers.

    It's a natural and inevitable process of change. No need for us to force people to become like "us."

    Kate

  • tibbrix

    chase_gw

    ..........and I wasn't addressing your post.

    Might want to NAME the person to whom you are responding, then, Chase. Or were we all just supposed to know it, somehow?

  • tibbrix

    Learning to communicate efficiently in a country not one's own is not "becoming like us", kate. And no one every said children should be taught ONLY the language of the country for which they originate.

    Where that argument came from, I do not know.

    all I know is, if I were to emigrate to another country, I would expect the burden to be on MYSELF to learn that country's primary language. If I moved to Italy, I would believe I had an obligation to learn to speak Italian. I would not believe Italy had an obligation to cater to my native language.

    To me, that is common sense.

  • chase_gw

    Tib, I wasn't addressing anyone in particular. Why do you think it was a response to any one in particular? It was an open post.

    When I respond directly to a person I generally use their name. Sometimes I don't if my response is directly following theirs and it is clear that my response is to them.


  • tibbrix

    "It was an open post."

    And I responded to it.

    Cripes.

  • frank_il

    Seriously, you are about as bad as Demi was. You are the reason that there is such low participation on this board these days. Congratulations for effectively killing a board.

  • chase_gw

    chase_gw

    "..........and I wasn't addressing your post.

    Might want to NAME the person to whom you are responding, then, Chase. Or were we all just supposed to know it, somehow?"

    Tib, this was a totally unnecessary and rude post. There is nothing in my earlier post that would suggest it was meant for you or any other poster.

    When I explained I wasn't addressing you a simple "sorry" for your misunderstanding would have been more appropriate.

  • adoptedbyhounds

    "No need for us to force people to become like "us.""

    Wait a minute, kate. Coming here is a privilege, which means we have no obligation to admit anyone unwilling or unable to adapt to our culture.

  • chase_gw

    What exactly is your culture ?

  • hericles

    Learning to speak English = A Strong Public School system

    GOPers don't get that.

    Assimilation = Integration, not Segregation

    GOPers never understood that and many will always choose to avoid living around minorities or in a segregated neighborhood.

    Assimilation = Is everyone's responsibility, not just immigrants. When I say everbody, I also refer to our government and our public school system.

    GOPers refuse to acknowledge that either.

    The assimilation of our European forefathers worked out pretty well for them but not for others who had to clear higher hurdles with more obstacles in between.

    It would be nice if people could be more patient with a process that takes generations to complete rather than taking their shoe off, banging it on the podium, and ranting about illegal aliens insisting on communicating with their native language.

  • ubro

    assimilation ?

    Reminds me of Star Trek and the Borg, the next sentence was "resistance is futile"

    Society should be a mosaic, not a melting pot. Or better yet a well put together puzzle where everyones differences actually contribute to the whole.

    Not sure weather that is an achievable goal though. Too many of the puzzle pieces object to being next to other less affluent pieces, pieces of the wrong colour, religion, or sexual orientation.

  • elvis

    ranting about illegal aliens insisting on communicating with their native language.

    ...which works just fine as long as the illegal aliens, or anyone else FTM, are communicating with each other. Not so much when most people don't speak that language.

  • hericles

    i agree with Tibbrix that immigrants should make every effort to learn English in order to take full advantage of all that we have in this country and that includes sending their children to well funded neighborhood public schools.

    Where I think there is disagreement is who pays for the assimilation, particularly with children . My view is that public schools should be equipped to handle students who need to learn or catch up on English and that we should explore ways to help the assimilation process rather than becoming blowhards and telling tall tales about how our parents and grandparents assimilated so why can't Mexican Americans..

  • elvis

    Too many of the puzzle pieces object to being next to other less affluent pieces, pieces of the wrong colour, religion, or sexual orientation.

    Not to mention political orientation...or how about living next to people who make more noise than you'd like? The list goes on and on and certainly isn't limited to prejudices. Sometimes it's plain old ordinary annoyance. Crankiness.

  • jodik_gw

    Perhaps, Chase, that's my fault...

    I used the example I hear most often when I'm out and about in public and families are speaking among themselves... and that is... some obviously prejudiced people will say, "This is America - learn to speak English or go back to Mexico!"

    Or the same idea is brought up in a conversation I find out part way through that I don't want to be having.

    It's a piece of that "assimilate" that drives me nuts. Quite a bit of our country is set up for both languages... English and Spanish... kind of like it's common to see English and French in parts of Canada... even on products labels shipped to the US from Canada.

    So, what's the problem? One wouldn't think there was a problem.

    But some folks are extremely against having both Spanish and English here, in the US... as though English were the first language ever to be spoken on these shores.

  • tibbrix

    "Tib, this was a totally unnecessary and rude post. There is nothing in my earlier post that would suggest it was meant for you or any other poster.

    When I explained I wasn't addressing you a simple "sorry" for your misunderstanding would have been more appropriate."

    rolls eyes. And very ironic.

    YOU said it was an open comment, so there was no misunderstanding. Anyone can respond. Open comments are addressed to everyone, Chase. I responded.

    You're the one who said you were not responding to ME, presumably saying you were commenting for all to see and respond...except me. Yes, you should have made that clear. I had no way of knowing that from your response. And if you consider suggesting you name the person to whom you are responding to be "totally rude and unnecessary", perhaps Hot Topics is a bit too hot for you?

    And it is NOT unnecessary when someone responds to YOU responding to them by saying, "I was not responding to you." It actually becomes necessary.


  • tibbrix

    "...we have no obligation to admit anyone unwilling or unable to adapt to our culture."

    Wow. What a statement.

  • chase_gw

    Tib, if you can't follow what happened in those 4 or 5 posts then you likely should refrain fom talking about others reading comprehension skills.

    Let me help you out....

    chase_gw

    If I was an American with children I would be making sure they were learning Spanish. Being proficient in Spanish will be of great benefit on a resume.

    Like Bookmark 4 hours ago

    tibbrix

    I would as well, and Latin too, and the real language to learn for a resume now is Arabic. But that is not what I'm talking about.

    Like Bookmark 4 hours ago

    Edit|Delete

    chase_gw

    ..........and I wasn't addressing your post.

    It was your chastising me for YOUR error in assuming my post about American children learning Spanish was directed at you that was offensive

    Your response

    ".........and I wasn't addressing your post.

    Might want to NAME the person to whom you are responding, then, Chase. Or were we all just supposed to know it, somehow?"

    Answer this what about my post would lead you to believe I was addressing you or anyone else ? Nothing..........yet you cannot bring yourself to say you assumed incorrectly that I was addressing you.

  • nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

    What is "our culture," and where does "our culture" reside?

    If "our culture" is in the Southwest of the US, Nik has no legitimate reason to complain about Latinos not assimilating.

    .

    Complaining about non-English speakers -- so 20th century, the 1980s to be more precise.

    .

    Ballots in California are available in five or six languages; the Los Angeles municipal utilities bill offers an even greater language choice.

    .

    You can be dogmatic and insist that all residents be fluent in English -- unrealistic given the number of years it takes to gain real fluency -- or government and business can be proactive re language differences and aim for greater inclusion. California and Los Angeles have chosen the latter, for better relations between institutions and residents.

    .

    Edited to add: I misspoke. Nativists managed to eliminate bi-lingual education in the state. I haven't been following the issue, but there are attempts to reintroduce bi-lingual instruction on more limited scale,

  • tibbrix

    OMG.

  • tibbrix

    Yes, what is "our culture"???? Watching the Kardashians after we get home from the gun range which we went to after a morning at NASCAR races????

  • elvis

    As a practical matter, if a cop calls out "stop, police!" does the officer now have to repeat that in several languages, or even two? C'mon.

  • nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

    We have bilingual police, and not just English-Spanish.

    Remember community policing . . . know the community you are serving.

  • chase_gw

    Same here, we have police who speak the language of the neighbourhoods they serve and it's not about "stop, police" . It's about "are you OK", " did you see who hurt you" "what did you see/hear" ........" can I help you "

  • jillinnj

    Oh, right, elvis, we wouldn't want the police to actually be able to communicate with the neighborhood they're policing, now would we?

    C'mon is right!

  • momj47

    As a practical matter, if a cop calls out "stop, police!" does the officer now have to repeat that in several languages, or even two?

    Yes, or even more languages, and maybe use sign language too.

    Or the police had better learn not to assault or shoot and kill people before they know what's going on.

    Grandfather visiting Alabama from India stopped by police while taking walk, left partly paralyzed

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

    What about the deaf motorist who was shot and killed by a policeman who could not hear what he was being told to do?

  • adoptedbyhounds

    "What is "our culture," and where does "our culture" reside?"

    Look it up, Nancy. Google is your friend.


  • hericles

    Yes, what is "our culture"???? Watching the Kardashians after we get
    home from the gun range which we went to after a morning at NASCAR
    races??


    LOL. Yes we are asking them to assimilate to a lack of culture.

  • nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

    Nik, I don't think the US has a common culture throughout the 50 states.

    Evidently you cannot give me a reasonable answer as to what you think is "our culture," and resort to deflection.

    Noted.


  • chase_gw

    I agree Nancy, on both points. I have traveled the US extensively and enjoy the diversity of culture in the various regions, The customs, foods, the way religion is practiced, dialects etc vary considerably. It all adds to a wonderful mosaic.


  • jillinnj

    Some cannot see beyond their own door. They assume everyone is and thinks like them, no matter how many times they are told that's not the case.

    And then are condescending to those that have a wider experience.

  • adoptedbyhounds

    "Nik, I don't think the US has a common culture throughout the 50 states."

    Nor did I assert there was. When I say "our culture" I am referring to the shared expectations of every free and healthy society. In our case, that means adherence to and respect for our Constitution, including the rights enumerated under our Bill of Rights. I am referring to the long-standing expectation that our laws will be enforced, with everyone equal under the law.

    America has a history/tradition of correcting wrongs by speaking out against the abuse of power.

    We have shared tradition of speaking out when we see politicians abusing their power and positions to avoid accountability. Today, progressive/liberal politicians are on a mission to remake our nation (the term is "fundamentally transform") into one that is poorer, less educated, and more easily led. All that has been going on under our noses without politicians consulting the citizens burdened by this unwanted transformation

    Around the world, multiculturalism is being seen as the disaster it is. When Donald Trump says America First, he's talking about putting the power to choose who we want to be back in the hands of the people. Around the world, politicians have done a terrible job, and Americans are not alone in wanting their country and their culture back.

  • jillinnj

    America has a history/tradition of correcting wrongs by speaking out against the abuse of power.

    We have shared tradition of speaking out when we see politicians abusing their power and positions to avoid accountability.

    Did you speak out about Bush's abuse of power? Did you speak out about his sending 4000+ Americans to their death for his own personal vendetta? I'd call that one hell of an abuse of power. Didn't see one word from you on that.

    No, you have a history of speaking out against any politician that is a Democrat.

    This is called being hypocritical.

  • Marshall C.

    Right On! jillinnj

  • nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

    Multiculturalism is a disaster?

    Why? Because you say so?

    .

    As for shared expectations, there have been competing interests and power blocs in the US since the first days of the republic.

    .

    There are groups that desire a less educated country, and a continued upwards wealth distribution -- to the detriment of US workers. Progressives are not among those groups.

  • chase_gw

    Most modern western countries "cultures" are just as you describe American "culture" . What you describe is not culture it is a framework for the rules that govern a society.

    Canada prides itself in being a multicultural country rather than a melting pot.

    Multiculturalism is not what's causing problems in some countries it is disenfranchisement and bigotry.

    ETA Actually if adherence to the Constitution and Bill of Rights is the standard, as it should be, then multiculturalism vs a singular culture is the more American" way

  • Marshall C.

    The is an odd disassociation at work here among some posters. This country was made up from disparate colonial units and imposed on lands wrested from indigenous inhabitants. We as a nation were born and raised from multiculturalism. Wanting to establish and "American" culture without reference to this history of multiculturalism smacks of something I would hate to see in this country.

  • adoptedbyhounds

    "Why? Because you say so?"

    No, Nancy, what I say isn't your problem. What matters is what the citizens living in victimized countries say about multiculturalism and what it has done to them and their way of life.

    How is that "rich tapestry" working out in Germany? Switzerland? The Netherlands? Belgium? Greece? France? The US?

    I'm thinking Donald Trump may have more in common with the people of those countries than their own leaders do. What a scary thought for the new world order.


  • jillinnj

    Wow. Just so darn proud of that prejudice, aren't you?

  • woodnymph2_gw

    Our planet is increasingly interracial and multicultural due to global economy and increasing travel. This is the new normal. Get used to it!!!

  • adoptedbyhounds

    Dont waste your time worrying about my "getting used to" more interracial Americans. Two black grandsons and an Asian baby of unknown sex in the way!

    Chase, I gave you examples of elements that make up a culture, and described those elements in terms of our culture. If you think shared beliefs and values are merely a framework and not part of the culture, that's entirely up to you.




  • chase_gw

    I guess part of the problem is you don't understand what culture is...that's O K but it won't work over time. There are many cultures represented in the States and one is growing faster than another.

  • jodik_gw

    The United States is a multi-cultural nation, filled with many peoples who speak a variety of languages, and observe a multitude of customs!

    It's awesome! Unless someone harbors prejudices, or is a bigot.

    This is why I always say I'm a non-conformist, a unique individual... because I am not part of the collective that some want everyone to assimilate into! I refuse!

    I might not speak multi languages like my husband does, but I have the capacity to learn should I wish to, and I'm open to learn a lot!

  • nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

    Victimized countries?

    A truly Orwellian phrase to describe industrialized European countries with high standards of living -- Germany, Switzerland, France, Netherlands -- and no mention of the death and horrors the refugees are fleeing in their native countries.

    Syria, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, the Sahel; murdering militias, salafist jihadis, ethnic and religious persecution, terrorism, aerial bombarding, drought, famine. Yet the wealthy first-world countries in Europe are the victims in Nik's view.

    .

    The weaker economies of southern European nations are the front lines of the refugee crisis, and have been left to deal with the situation as best they can. Italy and Greece have literally been the saviours of refugees on sinking boats, for years. The EU has been stingy sending money to help with the rescue efforts, and GB's Cameron was shameless and heartless in his your-problem-don't-bother-us attitude .

  • ogrose_tx

    Wow... interesting conversation for sure! But I wonder what the answer is for the United States; or, at this point, for some, maybe, we don't really have a United States... Is this important?? Is it more important for us to "assimilate" in order to all get along, or who cares what we believe?


  • adoptedbyhounds

    Nancy, Citizens who live in nations that "welcomed" people into their midst without thinking through the cultural differences are not pleased with what has been done to them. Around the world citizens are outraged. Angela Merkel is in big trouble with citizens fed up with her failing to protect them. It is ill advised to bring in refugees who include large numbers of people who are clearly not interested in preserving the values or following the laws of the host country. The "migrations" taking place have been rushed, and most importantly, achieved without the permission of the citizens of targeted countries. Some countries have removed refugees because of attacks on their own citizens.

    Don't expect citizens to put up with mass migration. They are pushing back, and middle class Americans are among those most fed up with the scheme.


  • jodik_gw

    We have a United States... we just don't have a united population, which contains some who harbor prejudices and refuse to help thy neighbor.

  • nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

    Of course the recent mass 'migrations' are rushed -- that's the nature of humanitarian crises.

    Since when does any country organize referenda to accept refugees. The leaders are elected to make decisions.

    As far as accepting persons from a different cultures, Germany accepted guest workers and residents from Turkey for decades.

    .

    Nik, how do you propose to deal with humanitarian and refugee crises? How should Europeans react to refugees fleeing ISIS and Al Qaeda in Syria and Iraq? What about the multitudes stuck in refugee camps is Jordan -- should they remain there forever.


  • ogrose_tx

    My older neighborhood has become very "multi-cultural"... behind me lives a Hispanic lady (whose husband left her after moving in), across my court lives a Vietnamese man who lost his wife and two children trying to leave Viet Nam by boat, but has two children he managed to get through college and get great paying jobs. They do speak English, sometimes hard to understand, but we all work together to help each other out. My late husband helped the Vietnamese family understand and fix what is up in owning a home, why his phone bill was so high, why his water bill was so high (toilet running all the time). Up the street are two thriving shopping centers that were dying. One side is Hispanic, thriving, a grocery store and meat market, two restaurants. The other side Vietnamese, grocery store, restaurants, an Ethiopan lady who cuts my hair, a Cuban bakery, etc. etc. This is what I mean by "assimilating", these people are truly trying to become a part of the so-called "American Dream", and I really resent the negative remarks on this.

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