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Pre-winter journal: roses' and our health & observation & wish-list

strawchicago
September 28, 2016
last modified: September 28, 2016
The above is my most favorite bouquet taken in August, thanks for Duchess de Rohan (deep pink) fantastic scent .... slightly better than Comte de Chambord. Wise Portia's scent is the best among purples, Evelyn smells like floral peach. Tchaikovsky (yellow) smells like candy.

This thread is a pre-winter journal to write your observations & learnings for this year, wish-list for next year roses, plus what works for your health.

I'm thankful for Totoro (Aileen), a physician in this forum. Also appreciate Khalid's healthy home remedies.

I bought a cheap apple cider from Walmart, taste icky, so I use that to dissolve gypsum to feed roses. Roses like that more than harsh white vinegar.

The Bragg Organic apple cider taste much better. I ate more salad when I used Organic apple cider. Saw google news today about apple cider helps with weight loss. For those who don't like the smell of apple cider, NOW makes apple cider pills, $8 on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Now-Foods-Vinegar-Capsules-180-Count/dp/B0001TNCK0/ref=sr_1_10_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1475071341&sr=8-10&keywords=apple%2Bcider%2Bvinegar&th=1

Amazon folks report that worked for acid-reflux, acne, colds, etc. Regarding its weight loss property, see below link:

http://www.medicaldaily.com/apple-cider-vinegar-diet-weight-loss-drinking-meals-improves-digestion-gut-399220

"The "magic elixir" has been used for centuries as a versatile ingredient with a wide-range of uses for the body, including an anti-microbial and antifungal agent that increases immunity and weight loss, among other uses. Previous research has found sipping on ACV has been associated with lower body weight, body mass index (BMI), weight circumference, and serum triglycerides (fat found in blood). Obese adults who consumed a beverage containing one or two tablespoons of vinegar every day lost two to four pounds after 12 weeks.

Beta-carotene, calcium, and potassium are nutrients that remain after apples are fermented into vinegar, giving it its antioxidant power. Antioxidants in vinegar, such as catechin, gallic acid, caffeic, and chlorogenic acids help keep the body healthy and running smoothly. The acetic acid in ACV increases the body's absorption of important minerals from the food you eat. Moreover, the acetic acid helps to suppress your appetite, increasing metabolism and reducing water retention, helping you shed the pounds."

Comments (58)

  • vaporvac

    Excellent recommendations for smaller roses. I'm really interested in those. Valrose, thank you for the FOTW info. I think this rose went by three names! when I was considering it this past spring for my upper beds. It ended up my 2 New Dawns had babies so I felt 5 New Dawns! was enough for that space and, in fact, will move one down to the lower level to climb the wall next year. I went with a mix of Munstead Wood, Dark Desire and Darcy Bussell to provide the deep reds instead. Is FotW a fast grower? Does it repeat well? I'm also thinking of planting more Viking Queens up the wall. I should just do a post on that, but pics of my concrete retaining wall would horrify you all. Your houses are so pretty and neat. Mine is old and crumbling and needs a good power wash, although I still like it.

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  • totoro z7b Md

    Biggest lesson I learned is that different roses have different, pH, soil type and nutrient needs and that you can make educated guesses about these unique needs by examining the lineage, root system and leaves.

    For my health, I find that gardening is excellent for relieving stress and getting exercise. In the winter when I cannot garden I do yoga.

    Considering for next year: Nahema, Teasing Georgia, Garden Sun, Lady Emma Hamilton, Jubilee Celebration, Margot Koster.

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  • vaporvac

    Go for Margo, tototo! I'm growing her up from a band. She sat most of the Spring and Summer as two little sticks, but suddenly she exploded. She wants to bloom like mad and I've had to keep them mipped to encourage root growth. Now that I put her in the ground she wants to bloom again. i'll post pics when she does; her blooms are so sweet.

  • strawchicago

    Warning about Nahema: ugly as a bush, if Roses Unlimited could not make it bloom, neither could I. I ordered Nahema with 5 other roses as own-root, and Nahema was the only one with so little leaves, and zero blooms.

    For alkaline tap water, I would place Dee-lish or Versigny scent ABOVE Nahema.

    Prior to ordering Nahema, I asked Predfern in Chicagoland, which is better looking: Jacques Cartier or Nahema ... he answered: "neither". I would NOT put Nahema in a pot, but I would put Versigny (compact) or something cute like Olivia Rose. Check out this previous info. in Organic Rose, written by Nicole:

    Nicole_GA

    Thank you strawchicago. :) I absolutely LOVE Roses Unlimited .... So far the new roses for me this year include a few austins: Evelyn, Munstead Wood, Molineux, the new Olivia Rose that is grafted ... and many others that I observed in trial gardens locally that I liked that performed well in our climate like Bolero, some Kordes roses (lions fairy tale, savannah, dark desire, polar express, winter sun) and a repeat old reliable pink pet/caldwell pink for the inferno strip in the front yard next to the sidewalk. Here is a pic of the new Olivia rose. These pics were a few weeks ago when those first blooms were opening.

    3 Likes Bookmark June 3, 2016 at 10:14AM

  • rosecanadian

    Oh wow!!! Those Olivia's are fabulous!!!! I can't believe how outstanding they are!!!! What do you think of the fragrance?

    It would be wonderful to try the apple cider vinegar as a weight loss method. But I don't think I could get past the taste.

    Carol

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  • totoro z7b Md

    I am also considering Sharifa Asma and Boscobel for partial shade locations.

    I really want Olivia rose too, but does anyone know how she does with only afternoon sun?

    Thanks for the warning about Nahema, Straw. I was planning on planting Nahema climber close to Heritage and using the same trellis so it would not be noticeable if Nahema's leaves or blooms were sparse.


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  • Kelly Tregaskis Collova

    I love Nahema! I bought two this year, one giant own root from cool roses and one grafted on huey from Ludwigs. The own root it a huge blooming machine over 5 or 6 ft tall. It had to be at least 3 years old when sent. I would highly recommend it. I am really hoping it will make it through our crazy cold winter. Versingy, variagata de bologna, dee lish and vicks caprice are on my wish list. Here is nahema. Produces tons of hips too!

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  • jabubaoski

    Thanks Kelly! I don't see a picture, can you maybe repost?

    If I can find a bit enough pot (25+ gallon enough?) I may fit in a dwarf clematis at the bottom.

    Thanks Staw, I do love Olivia Rose, so pretty! On my list too, which is getting longer and longer...

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  • Kelly Tregaskis Collova

    shoot, my phone doesn't want to let me import...Ok-

    Nahema

    I had some really great pics of the whole bush, and the clusters of hips but they seem to be gone now..;) Ill post if they show up

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  • strawchicago

    THANK YOU, Kelly, for that fantastic shot of Nahema. I grew Nahema BEFORE I experimented with sulfate of potash/gypsum. Plus that was before I dig down to 2.5 feet for winter survival. That was before I fix clay with coarse sand. Will buy Nahema again, it was 100% clean, zero blackspot for 2 years even unto late fall. Hopefully I can find an old-bush-shot pic. of Nahema. Below is Versigny:

    Above is Versigny, always healthy. It's a child of Graham Thomas and a Davidoff hybrid tea. Versus Dee-lish as a child of Louis de Funes and Graham Thomas. They both prefer loamy & alkaline soil.

    If I had fixed my clay to be loamy with a bag of coarse sand, Versigny would had lasted more than 2 years. Now I dig down to 2.5 feet since I want to ensure winter-survival. Wet & icy clay = death to root.

    Above bouquet: Versigny is orange, Firefighter is red, Liv Tyler is pink, and Bolero is white. Below is another bloom of Versigny.

  • rosecanadian

    Oh, Straw!! I love all of your roses - but especially Versigny!!!! That is exquisite!!! Please tell me it has a wonderful fragrance!! :)

    Carol

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  • strawchicago

    Carol: Versigny is worth growing for the scent alone, it's like an apricot pie & cupcakes & fresh garden all in one. Better scent than Golden Celebration, and lasts twice longer in the vase.

    I found a pic. of Nahema's leaves dating to late Sept. 2012, yes, it's WORTH GROWING, not a trace of blackspots for 2 years.

    Second pic. is late-fall 2012 bouquet, blooms are smaller due to much less sun in early Oct., right before frost. Nahema is the light pink:

  • jabubaoski

    Straw & Kelly, thanks for posting such enticing pictures, but where am I going to put all these roses?! I guess as long as I still fit sideways in the yard I am good. :P

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  • strawchicago

    vickysgarden

    I want to add to my comments that my 4 Olivias are in part shade, and they seem to do very well with that....another plus for this rose! vickysgarden

    **** From Straw: Vicky is in Chicagoland, with a partial shade garden like mine. My Sharifa Asma has 1/3 less blooms with partial shade, but the blooms have nicer scent and better form in partial shade. Nahema gave the best blooms (thicker petals) in partial shade, then I moved it to full-sun, and the blooms went downhill.

    Nahema had a strong and beautiful scent, and died in a wet winter due to poor drainage. What makes me want to get that again as own-root is its exquisite petals .. like butter-cream frosting. The bloom looks best in real life, if grown in partial shade. This time I'll do it right: dig down to 2.5 feet & make my clay loamy with a bag of coarse sand & gypsum, and fertilize well.

  • rosecanadian

    Oh boy!!!! I really want Versigny!!!! Sounds delectable!!!! Lovely bouquet too!! Love the colors!

    Wish I could smell Nahema. I'll probably never grow it, because it's a climber.

    Carol

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  • Khalid Waleed (zone 9b Isb)

    This is a great thread. Enjoyed reading the comments. My winters are still few months away and I am currently planning to get good blooms in fall.

    best regards


  • totoro z7b Md

    Thanks so much. Sounds like Olivia will do well where I was planning to put it.

  • strawchicago


    The above pics. were taken during hot August 2013, that's when the summer phlox were blooming (tiny lavender flowers).

    The above are why I'll order Sonia Rykiel again, even the leaves smell good like raspberry floral. It died last winter thanks to freezing rain in Dec. which killed many trees. This rose is worth digging down to 2.5 feet for best drainage. It would had survived more than four zone 5a winters, if I had dug down deeper for drainage.

  • strawchicago

    Nahema has slightly better scent than Sonia Rykiel, but blooms are bleached out in hot sun. Plus it gives one-tenth the amount of blooms as Sonia Rykiel. It has its strong points: almost thornless, and 100% healthy with zero BS. This rose is stingy for Khalid (grafted on vigorous Centifolia), so high NPK soluble is probably best.

    What is a good deep-purple rose for cut-flowers besides Chartreuse de. Parme? Chart de Parme died many times on Cynthia, zone 5b, so I won't even try that one. I'm thinking about Ebb Tide, but don't know how long that would last in a vase. Thanks for any info.

  • rosecanadian

    Have you ever tried Ascot, Dark Desire or Twilight Zone? I have Dark Desire - beautiful rose with a lovely deep fragrance. So far (it's a new bareroot from last year) it doesn't bloom all that much - but each bloom is grogeous.

    Gorgeous pictures, Straw!!! I love the strong colors and the amount of petals!! Raspberry scented leaves? Wow - that sounds wonderful!! Does it fade to a blotchy color? I'm not fond of that - otherwise I would love to get that rosoe too!!!

    Carol

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  • strawchicago

    Carol: I have the same question for any pink rose: Does it fade to blah-beige? I always wonder if Boscobel or Princess Alexandra of Kent fade to a light pink? I like deep pink, and not pale pink. Without trace elements in chicken manure or horse manure, my roses fade really bad.

    Thank you, Carol, for that suggestion of Twilight Zone. I don't have deep purple for my bouquet. That will be on my "buy list" for next spring.

    One site stated that copper is essential for scent, I personally think it's phosphorus. My best scent for Duchess de Rohan was when I grew that in a pot, fertilized with Bloom-booster (high phosphorus) 10-52-10.

    I have zero scent on my Pink Peace for the entire year, until I topped with horse manure and Coop Poop NPK 2-4-3 mid-Sept.

    Below bouquet shows the fading color of Sonia Rykiel, the pink rose among peachy Evelyn. The reds are Crimson Glory:

  • rosecanadian

    Ooooh!!! Love the flowers!!! I especially love your Crimson Glory blooms!!! I'm looking forward to getting Coop Poop next year!!

    My PAoK keeps its color to the end...but we're pretty cool here....that may make a difference.

    You're welcome! I don't grow Twilight Zone - but it sure looks gorgeous!!!

    Carol

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  • strawchicago

    Cynthia (Nipptress) just informed me that her Versigny died in zone 5b after a few years, just like my Versigny died in zone 5a after 2 years. So I searched for something more hardy (apricot) and own-root.

    Few choices: Paul Bocuse (also a French Guillot) hardy to zone 5b. Lady Ashe (climber), hardy to zone 5b. Also Star of the Republic (climber and thornless), hardy to zone 5b (light pink).

    I wonder if Kordes South Africa has any scent? Also if Anna's Promise is hardy to zone 5b? Thanks. Did some searching and found South Africa didn't survive Cynthia's zone 5b winter, plus Chris from Newflora warned that South Africa is not winter-hardy.

  • vaporvac

    How about Buff Beauty, straw? Buff Beauty

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  • strawchicago

    Thank you, vaporvac for that Buff Beauty link. Just found out that Star of the Republic is healthy for Tammy in TN (very acidic red-clay). My zone is so cold that I lean toward climbers. Crown Princess Magareta (climber) gave me 10 times the blooms compared to Honey Bouquet floribunda that died in its first winter.

  • totoro z7b Md

    If my apricot climber Breath of Life does not improve with respect it disease resistance I was thinking of replacing with Lady Ashe which is disease resistant or Bathsheba. Very excited to see if Bathsheba will be available next year.

  • strawchicago

    Totoro: Lady Ashe is a sport of Aloha, that's iffy in disease-resitance. There are new Kordes climbers with pastel colors & better disease resistant (Quick Silver as light blue, beige Honeymoon, pink Jasmina, and yellow Golden-Gate climbers), see link below:

    http://newflora.com/product-category/kordes/garden-roses/climber/

    http://www.kordes-rosen.com/kordes-fragrant-garden

    In the older Austin catalogs (2011 - 2013) it stated which roses have dark-green foliage, mid-green, or pale-green. Jay-Jay from the Netherlands told me in HMF that his soil pH is 8, alkaline clay like mine, and his vigorous roses have dark-green & glossy leaves: A Shopshire Lad, Jubilee Celebration.

    Same here, dark-green leaves are vigorous in my alkaline clay pH near 8: Wise Portia (acidic folks report mildew), Evelyn (acidic folks report BS), Scepter'd Isle (acidic folks report BS, but 100% clean for me), Lilian Austin, Pat Austin (glossy & round & dark-green), Stephen Big Purple (large round dark-green), and Betty White (glossy & large & round dark-green), and CPM (dark-green large leaves).

    In contrast, the pale leaves like Graham Thomas & Teasing Georgia are very stingy as own-root for heavy & alkaline clay. But Graham Thomas has tons of blooms for Columbus Park (sandy soil fixed with acidic peatmoss). Jude the Obscure has pale leaves .. and 4 of them died on me as own-roots. For the 5th Jude, I fixed my clay with a bag of sand, and it doubled in size. Pale means wimpy roots and need fluffy soil.

    Charles Darwin has pale & small leaves and was very stingy in my heavy clay, but it bloomed tons AS GRAFTED ON DR. HUEY at nearby rose park with loamy & slightly alkaline soil. Pale leaves mean roots don't do acid-phosphatase, and need fluffy & loamy or sandy soil (plenty of phosphorus in fluffy soil, but much less in dense clay).

    Lady of Shalott as own-root gave me hell, its leaves are pale & skinny & slender in set of 5 to 7 (multiflora parentage) .. I had to fix my clay with a bag of sand, plus acidic pine-bark before it bloomed. Bathsheba has slender & pale & small leaves, so that would do well in loamy & acidic soil.

    Also watch out for crinkled & ugly leaves like Sharifa Asma ... very wimpy as own-root. Young Lycidas has crinkled & curly leaves like Sharifa. Young Lycidas is VERY VIGOROUS as GRAFTED ON DR. HUEY, giving Bailey 120+ perfect large blooms in a pot for spring flush.

  • totoro z7b Md

    Thanks for the advice, Straw. I have considered Quick Silver for a different spot in my garden.

    I have Lady of Shallot and Jude, both of which bloomed a lot for me this year (relatively speaking for young plants). I was thinking of getting Sharifa and Teasing Georgia eventually too. I will consider these grafted, but part of why I am a little wary of grafted is that I want the roses shrubs to stay small, like under 3 ft because my garden is so small.

    I really like the bloom form of Jasmina but I had read that it balls a lot.

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  • strawchicago

    Totoro: I would get Sharifa as GRAFTED on multiflora for acidic soil, or on Dr.Huey for alkaline soil, but Teasing Georgia is best as OWN-ROOT.

    Sharifa is wimpy as own-root in perfect potting-soil, smaller than a petunia !!

    Teasing George gives 8 foot-canes for zone 5 person. So glad that I have Crown Princess as own-root, yesterday I chopped off a 8 foot-cane on that climber.

    Huge climber PALE rose is best as own-root in acidic & loamy soil. Pale means it secretes less acid for flowering, but will bloom great in acidic soil, or grafted-on-agressive root like Dr. Huey (secretes plenty of acid for alkaline clay).

    It's the short & small rose that's needed to be GRAFTED in cold climate (Jude the Obscure & Sharifa Asma, Eglantyne, Lady Emma Hamilton, Princess Alexandra of Kent, Munstead Wood, Young Lycidas). These rose are so small as own-roots that they can't support huge flowers, so instead of zillion-petals-huge bloom, they give tiny-blooms or barely survive cold winter with their tiny roots.

    W.S. 2000 is a pale own-root that gave California folks a hard time. It gets bigger in my clay since I have the rain-barrel dumping tons of acidic rain, making the soil wet and loamy for its wimpy root.

    I should had known better to order Munstead Wood as Grafted, after seeing how tiny the rose park's Munstead Wood (grafted on Dr.Huey). Small comfort: Munstead roots easily, so I hope it will recuperate from my making the soil too acidic. Munstead Wood as own-root is one-sixth the size of Dee-lish (dark-green vigorous French Meilland).

    Balling is from lack of potassium & calcium. I never have balling problem with sulfate of potash/gypsum, or soluble potassium/calcium in horse manure at pH 8. Khalid doesn't have balling with his Jasmina (soil rich in calcium/potassium), but Jasmina is stingy with alkaline condition (such as California).

  • totoro z7b Md

    Yes, Straw. I followed your advice about potassium and calcium and Clotilde Soupert bush did not ball despite a week of rain. Maybe I will revisit Jasmina after all.

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  • vaporvac

    I can't comment on balling as I don't actually grow Jasmina. However, at the Columbus Park of Roses in their 'EarthKind' area, she was huge with healthy foliage, mid-June in HOT weather. Unfortunately, she holds onto her petals. Perhaps this isn't a problem when grown horizontally and easily accessible, but the look over an arbor was that of huge dried teabags littering the entire plant. She must have a massive flush, but clearly requires dead-heading! Fiji and Pomponello exhibited the same habit.

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  • strawchicago

    So glad I broke the rule of stop fertilizing mid-August for zone 5a. Well, I fertilized mid-Sept with Coop-poop NPK 2-4-3, and very pleased with the result. These pics. are taken Oct. 15. Pink Peace bought as $8 gallon-grafted-on-Dr.Huey from Menards:

    Yves Seedling, grown from seed. It did lousy in slightly acidic potting soil .. once I planted in my alkaline clay, it does much better. I almost killed it when I stuffed acidic grass clippings in the planting hole. Glossy foliage does better in alkaline clay.

    Below is Mary Magdalene in Oct. 15. the small leaves are Mary's, the larger & darker green leaves are Strike it Rich (like alkaline):

    Highly recommend W.S. 2000 as own-root for cold zone 4 to 5. Small & compact, and blooms lots in 4 to 5 hours of sun. It's 100% clean as of Oct. 15, despite my routing-the rain-barrel water, dumping 30 gallons of acidic rain every 1/2 hour. I spent 1 hour digging down to 2.5 feet for good drainage.

    Also highly recommend Wise Portia as own-root for zone 4-5. The color becomes burgundy red in alkaline soil. When it gets tons of acidic rain, the color becomes purplish. This has dark-green foliage, so a pH 8 soil is best.

    Pat Austin, pic. taken Oct. 12, becomes deeper bloom with horse manure (with shell lime at pH 8). It has dark-green & glossy foliage:

  • strawchicago

    After many hours of research, I will buy Young Lycidas as OWN-ROOT from David Austin U.S.A. Young Lycidas is listed as 4 x 3, same size as W.S. 2000.

    I won't have the instant reward of 120+ blooms for 1st year like Bailey with grafted-Young-lycidas, but I don't want to spend 1 hour digging a deep hole for grafted-rootstock, plus 1 1/2 hour killing Dr.Huey later.

    I find out why Sharifa Asma is so wimpy as own-root in my alkaline clay. Here's from David Austin website on Sharifa "A short shrub with bushy, upright growth and typical Rugosa foliage."

    So glad I dug that up to fix my clay with a bag of coarse sand. It rained for 2 days non-stop .. went out and saw Sharifa sprouting new leaves .. as a Rugosa-child that Sharifa Asma definitely likes loamy & acidic soil. No wonder it didn't like dense & peaty potting soil.

    Rugosa is known as "beach rose" for its thriving in sandy soil.

  • rosecanadian

    Straw - love your roses!!! The best is your seedling! Just amazing how you could create such a beautiful rose!! Your Mary Magdalene also speaks to me. Lovely!!!!

    I'm giving my Falstaff, Roberta Bondar and Young Lycidas to a friend. I've been defoliating my roses, because they're going into the garage for winter this weekend. Strawberry Hill is a rose that I wrapped around a cage- pillar like thing. My hands are all scratched up from trying to get the inside leaves. I've decided I don't want to have long canes that I have to espalier - I'm just going to stick with HTs. Although Strawberry Hill is so fabulous I'm going to keep that one.

    Carol

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  • strawchicago

    Carol: Agree that Hybrid Tea bloom more for pots, hybrid-tea are bred with alkaline tap water, so they bloom easier. Austin roses (GRAFTED) throw crazy canes at the rose park .. I saw grafted-Jude the Obscure with only bloom at 7 feet (2 meter) .. to sniff that one needs a ladder. Compare that to tons of blooms on their Cherry Parfait (Meilland), Gene Boerner, Singing-in-the-rain & other landscape roses.

    The problem with Austin roses: some have climber-genetics, which need lots of room. Phosphorus (for branching) and potassium (for blooming) are more available with loamy soil, and dense-peaty potting soil can't provide that.

    Loamy soil are best for stingy Austin-roses, and I can't get "loamy" or "pine-fines" potting soil so I have to mix coarse sand into my pots, or mix Orchid-soil with potting soil.

    This past mid-May purchase of own-roots: Kordes Poseidon, French Meilland Dee-lish, Lady of Shalott, Munstead Wood. Both Poseidon and Dee-lish gave 10 times more blooms than the 2 Austins, plus P. and Dee are at least 6 times bigger & bushier.

  • vaporvac

    Carol, Why do you need to defoliate before putting them in the garage. Won't the leaves just fall off or does that make too much of a mess? I may want to do this with a couple next year.

    I think I need Dee-lish, straw. My 1st yr bare-root Grafted Munstead Woods gave me well OVER 100 blooms. I actually lost count at that and they've had an addition flush since then... 5 so far! And that's after moving one of them mid-July and having to wait for regrowth. The grafting must account for that.

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  • rosecanadian

    Straw - that's interesting! You know so very much!! I really want to get Dee-Lish!!!

    Vaporvac - I do it so there's not a mess in the garage and so the leaves don't feed the canes. I want everything to stay dormant. It also gets rid of any diseases and bugs. I have a method that I have figured out and I never lose any roses anymore. I can post it here if you want. :) I'm the only one in the rose society here that can overwinter roses in the garage. I'm posting my methods for them on the newsletter.

    Wow!! Over 100 blooms!!!!!! Is that in ONE flush??? Sheesh!!!

    Carol

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  • Kelly Tregaskis Collova

    Yes, Carol! Please post your method. I am going to try winterizing a few this year but could really use some tips!

  • strawchicago

    Carol shared her method last winter, but her roses are grafted on MULTIFLORA, plus in fast-draining potting soil. Multiflora-rootstock can take tons of water without losing leaves, like my Comte (grafted-on-multiflora) swimming happily under the rain-spout, while own-root Carding Mill almost died, and own-root Barcelona broke out in blackspots in that puddle.

    Last winter, right before freezing, I watered my own-root roses in slow-draining heavy clay, and killed over $100 worth. After these 4 to 5 year-old OWN-ROOT roses died (thanks to my watering them right before freezing) .. I dug up University Vermont, and they stated "plants/trees can survive winter better on the dry side, rather than soaking wet".

    Multiflora-rootstock behaves differently than trees or deep-rooted Dr.Huey-rootstock. Multiflora-rootstock is a surface cluster root, rather than DEEP chunky-woody which will crack in freezing ice .. that applies to older own-roots, Dr-Huey, and trees.

    I damaged my 15-year old cherry tree by emptying my 50-gallon rain-barrel, right before it dipped down to below freezing last winter. It didn't flower much last year, and quite bare. Yes, to watering fast-draining & loamy potting soil and multiflora-rootstock, but No to watering heavy clay before winter. That won't drain fast enough, and the freezing ice will crack roots, including trees' roots.

    Sam used alfalfa-tea to induce blooms on his roses, but his roses are grafted on MULTIFLORA, which doesn't produce as much acid as Dr.Huey rootstock or the dark-green & glossy foliage own-roots. I have to give Comte (grafted on multiflora) four-times the dose of acidic gypsum/sulfate of potash before it blooms.

    So when I tested alfalfa tea several times on own-root roses, they broke out in blackspots. Tiny own-roots can't handle such big dump of acid, but multiflora-rootstock loves it.

    Own-roots are best with slow-released organics, versus multiflora needs a huge dose of ACIDIC fertilizer before it blooms. The biggest fertilizer hog in my garden now is Comte (grafted on multiflora). The other 2 own-root Comte can produce acid to digest minerals in clay, but Comte on multiflora has to be spoon-fed HIGH dose of SOLUBLE-fertilizer before it blooms.

  • vaporvac

    I second the request, rosecanadian. Would it be possible to just have a link to your newsletter, to save you some time? And, I only wish those 100 blooms were in one flush! However, for a 1st year plant I though it was pretty good. I'm pretty much a newbie, so almost all my roses are 1st year.. Each MW gave over 25 blooms after being in the ground for 6 weeks! The blooms were as big as the plants. They took a short break, put on some growth and bloomed again, repeating that cycle 5 times. Now I'm getting thick mature canes.That's why I think MW IS a blooming machine! (cavet: mine are DR Huey grafted.)

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  • rosecanadian

    Wow, Straw!! That's quite the difference that a rootstock can give. I had no idea. Good thing you mentioned this for everyone else.

    Do the two of you still want my method after Straw's info?

    Carol

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  • strawchicago

    There's a thread about rootstock years ago:

    http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1679153/about-multiflora-rootstock

    patriciae_gw(07) Unless they go own-root roses on Multifora have a life expectancy of about 10 years. This from Christian Schultheis in Germany who did his Specialty in root stocks.

    https://www.nps.gov/plants/ALIEN/PUBS/MIDATLANTIC/romu.htm

    "Multiflora rose occurs throughout the eastern half of the United States and in Washington and Oregon. It tolerates a wide range of soil, moisture and light conditions and is able to invade fields, forests, prairies, some wetlands and many other habitats." Below is an internet pic. of multiflora-leaf:

  • strawchicago

    Cup_shaped roses is Niels in Denmark. He grows 400+ roses, zone 5b, acidic clay:

    http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1719734/lifespan-of-a-grafted-rose

    cupshaped_roses(6) In my experience bareroot (grafted) modern roses .., have a few years where they look really great ...then they seem to decline - almost grow backwards - and I end up replacing them with new plants.

    It may however be a matter of rootstocks? Up until the 1980es - R. Canina species was most often used as rootstocks over here - (Rose Canina Pfanders in Germany - Rosa Canina Laxa in milder/warmer areas - like France and England - but most use R. Multiflora today.cupshaped_roses(6)

    **** In the above thread, Roseseek (Kim Rupert) reported Grafted-on-Dr.Huey can survive 30 years in dry California. Also Seil in sandy soil, zone 6a, reported grafted-on-Dr.Huey being 50 years old in her mother's garden.

    Nearby alkaline clay rose-park, zone 5a: they replace their Austins (grafted on Dr.Huey) every 2 to 4 years. Their longest grafted-rose is Double Delight, more than 5 years old.

    Dr.Huey rootstock, being drought-tolerant, can't handle soaking wet clay that turns into freezing ice in zone 5a winter. But grafted-on-Dr. Huey lives long in dry-climate like California, or in loamy/sandy soil like Seil's in Michigan.

    From Heirloom roses: "The place where the bud has been added, called the crown or bud-union, is a weak area on the plant. A hard, freezing winter can easily damage the crown, leaving only the rootstock to grow. "

    trospero(8) Paul Barden

    This is why I despise 'Dr. Huey' as a rootstock. You can be guaranteed that at some point in the life of the rose, 'Dr. Huey' will send up suckers that you will never, ever be able to stop. This is just what it does. The joke around here is that it is everybody's favorite rose because in May, there is no other rose you will see more blooming plants of than 'Dr. Huey' trospero(8)

    **** Agree with Paul Barden on Dr. Huey. In my Chicagoland, all the neighbors' roses which are grafted on Dr.Huey: either they die, or roostock take-over and become 10 feet tall rambling-eye-sores. For that reason, I post-pone getting some Austins until they are offered as own-root.

    bigtruckerdave(7 NC)April 7, 2013: Today I found enormous suckers growing about 3 feet from where I removed 2 Alba Maximas in the spring of 2012. And they were grafted on Dr Huey.

    jerijen(Zone 10)

    I haven't had Dr. Huey sucker in quite that manner -- but I have seen Dr. Huey suckers pop up about 6 ins. out from the bud union.

    What I HAVE had sucker that far away from the plant is Multiflora rootstock. Those ALL suckered rampantly here --

    http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1621052/dr-huey-rootstock?n=7

  • Kelly Tregaskis Collova

    Very interesting. I have had lots of issues with my grafted Austins reverting to Huey and also try to avoid. I have not heard much about multiflora and now that I have found Palatine, I have a 3 grafted on this rootstock. I am curious how they will survive our winter...

    strawchicago thanked Kelly Tregaskis Collova
  • strawchicago

    Kelly: Multiflora root is a cluster-root which stay at the surface so it will do well in cold & wet & poor drainage clay, if there's a thick-winter-protection above to keep the shallow roots from drying out.

    Dr. Huey can't take wet & poor drainage clay because it's a woody & deep stick.

    Paul Barden is from high-rain Oregon. Looks like Dr. Huey doesn't like wet, and dry cold is more bearable than freezing wet.

    Dave and Deb Boyd, from DRY climate, Billings, Montana zone 5a, with only 13 inch. of rain & snow combined .. their roses do great on Dr.Huey rootstock, no loss in 12 years. They buried the bud-union 2 to 4" below ground, and wait until mid-Dec. to winter-protect.

    http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=3.4748

    That's very dry compare to my wet zone 5a, with 38 to 40+ inch of rain, plus 23" of snow, for a total precipitation of 63", plus heavy clay, which makes it 6 times wetter than Dave & Deb's garden. They also grow mini-roses as own-roots, but every own-root mini-roses I grew died during 1st winter.

    I witnessed 1st hand the decline in many grafted-on-Dr.Huey Austin roses at nearby Cantigny with 1,200 roses. First year Jude the Obscure was awesome: more blooms than leaves, huge blooms (better than Austin's pictures). 2nd year it was a tall-monster with one lousy bloom. First year their Munstead Wood was awesome, I took a pic. of the bush .. more blooms than leaves. Second year Munstead Wood was a stingy shrimp, not worth taking picture. Same with Abraham Darby, Lilian Austin, Charlotte, Carding Mill, Strawberryhill ... these lasted only 2 years, then the rose park got rid of them.

  • strawchicago

    Very good info. comparing Dr. Huey-rootstock, Multiflora-rootstock, and Fortuniana-rootstock from below link, worth reading:

    http://roses4az-mevrs.org/wp-content/uploads/An-Overview-of-Fortuniana.pdf

    The most preferred rootstock for colder climates is r. multiflora and for warmer climates Dr. Huey. Here in the Desert Southwest, with our generally alkaline soils and extreme temperatures, we find that r. multiflora has a shorter life span, losing its vigor after five years. While fortuniana bushes had superior root systems, they had difficulty with the harsh & cold English climate.

    In a study over several years, Dr. McFadden budded two hybrid tea varieties, Queen Elizabeth and Tiffany, onto three different rootstocks. After counting the number of blooms produced over many growing seasons, the varieties budded onto fortuniana produced significantly more blooms. The fortuniana plants produced about three times the number of blooms as those on multiflora and twice as many as on Dr. Huey. The popularity of roses grown on fortuniana has increased dramatically over the last few years, spreading from Florida through the South and Southwest. Additional benefits include increased resistance to gall, stem dieback, and root disease, such as Phytophtora and Pythium. Bushes planted over 40 years ago in Florida are still thriving. On this rootstock, plants are heavier feeders, as they have five times the feeder roots of more common varieties."

    http://roses4az-mevrs.org/wp-content/uploads/An-Overview-of-Fortuniana.pdf

  • rosecanadian

    I've had some problems with a few of my older roses (5 years) growing backwards. Gemini is doing that right now. I'm going to check it next year for root binding.

    Really interesting, Straw.

    strawchicago thanked rosecanadian
  • totoro z7b Md

    Thanks Straw. Here is a post from Kim Rupert on Fort. I may try buying some roses grafted on Fort for my zone.

    http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1700998/my-word-fortuniana-really-pushes

    strawchicago thanked totoro z7b Md
  • strawchicago

    For cold zoners (zone 5 & 4), I found a link to a zone 3a public garden in Minnesota in HMF. I should e-mail them to ask how they winterize such a large selection of roses at 179 varieties and what rootstock.

    http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=3.9093&tab=1

  • Kelly Tregaskis Collova

    That is actually not too far from me...maybe 45 min. I have been wanting to visit. The MN landscape arboritum in Shakopee does the mn tip and buries all the roses...

    strawchicago thanked Kelly Tregaskis Collova

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