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Roses that perform well on Own Roots...

Straw has shared her experience on this important aspect in different threads during various discussions. I am taking the cuttings of some of my roses nowadays and only want to make effort on those that perform well. There is no point in planting those cuttings that won't grow well even when fully established.

While I am trying to dig out this information which is available in different old threads in bits and pieces, I would request the members to share their experience and name those roses in their garden which performed well on own roots and also those which did not.

Thanks and regards

Comments (129)

  • strawchicago

    Lavenderlace: For the own-roots that do well for you:

    New Zealand, Neptune, Jude the obscure, Sharifa Asma, Ebb Tide, Evelyn, Frederic Mistral, Fragrant Plum, Memorial Day, Tiffany, Parole (Buxom Beauty), Amazing Grace, Lemon Spice, Midnight Blue, Ebb Tide, Heritage, Savannah, Grande Dame, Twice in a Blue Moon, Lagerfeld, Madame Isaac Pereire, Reine des Violettes, Violet's Pride, Earth Angel, First Crush, Beverly, Magnificent Perfume, Midnight Blue.

    Which ones are best in sand, which ones are best in dense clay? Which ones are best in partial shade? Which ones can handle hot & full-sun? Which ones are drought-tolerant? Which ones need frequent watering? THANK YOU.

  • strawchicago

    noseometer: I didn't see your post until now, after a long absence from Organic Rose forum. THANK YOU for the info. about David Austin site selling own-root.

    As to chlorosis, check out the below thread in Rose forum, where Kelly posted pics. of her Alnwick rose being very pale & stunt, after she topped with bagged cow manure. That's exactly what I did years ago, stunting my tomatoes and 6 roses with bagged cow manure (has quick lime added to deodorize, which shot the pH up to above 8) .. my tomatoes became pale & 1/4 the size, and I had to spend 2 hours crapping that manure off my plants. Quick lime is DIFFERENT from natural sources like oyster lime or dolomitic lime.

    Quick lime is AN UNSTABLE CHEMICAL & it binds with potassium & phosphorus & trace-elements and make roses stingy and pale. Quick lime is used to deodorize bagged manure.

    Fresh cow manure is acidic at pH 4 & mighty stinky, my Mom had a 5-acre garden in Michigan, which she topped dress with cow manure and had the GREENEST tomato plants & lots of fruits. She got that manure from the dairy farmer across the street. But when I bought BAGGED cow-manure at local stores, it has zero odor, thanks to the quick lime added to deodorize, with pH above 8. My soil is near 8, and the bagged cow-manure is EVEN MORE ALKALINE, when I pH tested it.

    Another person from Florida, mixed 1/2 cow manure with 1/2 sandy soil, and her roses turned all pale, plus brown-salt-burns. She posted pics. of that years ago.


    QUESTIONS FOR NOSEOMETER to solve the puzzle of chlorosis: Is your soil sandy/loamy? What's your annual rainfall? Is your tap-water alkaline (Walmart sells litmus paper for fish-tank for $6 to test one's water). Thank you.

    Re-post what noseometer wrote: "My first year Jude got plenty of heat, dry air, steer manure, and sandy soil, but was very slow (as compared to Munstead Wood, planted in the same location/conditions and the same time)." Noseometer.

    Yes, my Munstead Wood as own-root is quite vigorous after I pile up alkaline clay. Radio Times is extremely vigorous in my alkaline clay, blooms abundantly when I fix my alkaline tap water (pH 9). But Jude is very wimpy in my alkaline clay & cold zone 5a, versus vigorous for Totoro (zone 7 & acidic clay).

    At local rose park, Jude (grafted on Dr. Huey) bloomed well during hot & dry weather, but shut down during cold/rainy. Andrea in England, zone 8, noted that Jude died over her winter, and Jude likes it warm.

  • Kelly Tregaskis Collova

    Looking back on my records, Darcy Bussell is own root. It is one of my strongest growing DAs. Very good one for cold zones with alkaline clay, but very light scent however.

    My phone can't capture the deep color-more purple mauve in real life.

  • Kelly Tregaskis Collova

    Benjamin Britten 3 yrs o.r. has been a strong grower here but has been stingy on blooms. Heaven on Earth is doing well for me also. Surprizingly, Love song is doing very well too. Made it through one pretty bad winter, but still too soon to add to the list. I have heard this one can be rather cold tender. Kordes o.r. roses Jolie Veranda, summer romance, madame anisette, and Posiedon are also doing very well after their first winter.

  • strawchicago

    Kelly: thank you for the info. on which ones are vigorous in your cold zone & alkaline clay. I'm asking people for their annual rainfall, type of soil (sandy, loamy, clay), and soil pH level (neutral, acidic, or alkaline), as well as partial or full-sun. Own-roots are best classified by those criteria, the planting zone doesn't matter.

    Stephen Big Purple (6th-year own root) is very vigorous in my zone 5a & alkaline clay, but died on a loamy soil zone 5b-person. Golden Celebration is vigorous as 7-year-own-root in my wet clay, but died on a loamy soil person (only 15 min. from me).

    My last house was acidic clay, and it's only 1/2 hour from my current house of rock-hard & alkaline clay. What's vigorous in acidic clay won't be vigorous in alkaline clay. What's vigorous in sandy soil won't be vigorous in hard clay. Own-roots like French Meilland and Romanticas bloom easily with my alkaine tap water at pH 9, but Austin roses won't bloom unless there's tons of acidic rain water (pH 4.5) in my Chicagoland.

    I killed a few roses (including Darcy Bussell) by mixing bagged coarse sand (pH over 8), it became a "wet-sink" in my poor-drainage clay, and compacts my pH near 8 clay further, thanks to bagged-sand's high pH. Didn't realize that until I tested the pH of bagged sand. In contrast, mixing in pine park (pH 4) result in vigorous roses & lots of blooms.

    Dry & acidic pine bark helps with drainage, versus sand creates a "wet-sink" if placed in planting hole. My neighbor put sand at the bottom of planting hole and 1/2 of her 30 Knock-out bushes died over our zone 5a winter, after tons of acidic rain in mid-winter.

    Thank God the roses that I tested were the ones I don't care for (William Morris, St. Cecilia, and Darcy Bussell) died with my experiment of clay mixed with sand. Horticulture sand is washed sand, without alkaline lime, to root her roses.

    Own-roots are all different from each other as to pH-preference, type of soil (sand or clay), full-sun/partial shade, need acidic rain (pH below 5), or can bloom with alkaline tap water (pH 9 here). The planting zone doesn't matter.

  • noseometer...(7A, SZ10, Albuquerque)

    Straw: Strangely, my Iceberg and Marie Pavie are not chlorotic so far this year. Perhaps the steer manure lime has been neutralized by the organics after a year of composting, perhaps the higher precipitation this winter helped leach it out or produce more organic acids, or just that there was more water and they are happier. The manure I get is very stinky, but I haven't pH tested it. Iceberg always seems to have yellowish leaves wherever I see it, and they are back to that look now instead of that chlorotic green-veined look they had last year. We'll see what happens as the summer wears on. Thanks for the information.

    My soil is sandy, in fact almost pure sand in some areas, as my garden was apparently built on a slope and leveled using fill (probably bought cheap as "topsoil"). Underneath all that, is compacted decomposed granite and caliche, the native subsoil. My water is about neutral to slightly alkaline (about 7.2) and high in calcium. I tried using aluminum sulfate on one plant, but it didn't help. Rainfall is 10-14" per year, mostly in the summer. Most of my roses are in full sun, except for Evelyn and Pure Perfume, which get mid-day shade.

    BTW, I moved my Radio Times and Jude the Obscure, and they are now happier. Seems that even when well irrigated, competition from pine tree or spruce tree roots is very bad for roses (or at least these roses, as Alnwick Castle does just fine under the pines). They certainly aren't growing like gangbusters, Jude has had 6 flowers so far (certainly not impressive, but twice as many as last year), and Radio Times has had at least a dozen. Still very small plants.

    Radio Times this year:

    Jude has been a much nicer color to my eyes this year:

  • strawchicago

    noseometer (7A)... ABQ: Forgive me for my ignorance, but what's ABQ behind your name stand for. Thanks.

    I have over 38" of rain, and 23" of snow in my zone 5a winter. We also have brutal summer heat up to 100F, and dry & hot spell which I can see which roses bloom well with my alkaline-tap water at pH 9. I also tested bottled waters with fish-tank litmus paper, they all are above pH 8.5.

    Thank you for those fantastic pics. of Radio Times and Jude .. they are my top scents in my alkaline clay. Marie Pavie had pale foliage as 1st-year-own-root, but now very dark-green as 7th-year own-root. What happened? When roses are tiny own-roots, they are "cluster-roots" like whitish alfalfa sprouts. As baby-roots, they can't secrete acid on their own, and need acidic & loamy soil. But as they mature, roots become woodier & chunkier (like Dr. Huey-rootstock), and better in producing acid for blooming and for dark-green leaves.

    Dr. Huey, as a woody-stick, can go through my rock-hard clay better than my shovel. I always put pale-own-roots in LOAMY potting soil (mixed with pine-shavings at pH 4), and watch them turn dark-green instantly from the aeration of the pine-shavings and its acidity.

    Marie Pavie had zero problems in my poor-drainage clay as a SHALLOW-CLUSTER-ROOT, 1st-year own-root, survived winter with all-green canes. But as 7th-year own root, it lost 1/2 canes through last wet winter (week-long of rain in freezing Jan.). My maple tree also died, so did many street-trees ... these have DEEP woody & chunky roots that rot easily in freezing acidic rain.

    I learn my lesson to dig past 2 feet deep and 3 feet wide for own-roots, to provide excellent drainage when their roots become DEEP & woody & chunky and cannot tolerate standing water like Dr.Huey-rootstock. One summer during heavy rain, I witnessed the over-flow from the rain-spout filled a 32 gallon garbage can in less than 10 minutes. With heavy rain climate, fast drainage is a must to prevent diseases & death.

    Alkaline clay with plenty of alkaline minerals (potassium & calcium & magnesium) do help roses to be healthy, but digging deep is still the key for blackspot-prevention in high-rain areas.

  • Kelly Tregaskis Collova

    Our annual rainfall is around 31", and snowfall, 42". I have sticky clay that I have never officially tested, but I assume it's pretty alkaline because the hydrangeas are always pink, and blueberries won't grow....most of my roses are planted in partial, dampled shade.

  • noseometer...(7A, SZ10, Albuquerque)

    Straw: ABQ is the airport code for Albuquerque, New Mexico. I live at 7,000 ft elevation. Winters go down to 10F (sometimes lower) and summer usually has at least some days over 100 (this week is supposed to go up to 106). 10-14" of precipitation, most of which is in July-August monsoons.

    Thanks for sharing the information on what happens as rose roots mature. How did you learn or discover this? I didn't know that pine shavings would acidify the soil. Would pine needles do the same thing? I may try it.

    Yes, Dr. Huey is probably the only rose I've seen that can penetrate the compacted decomposed granite and caliche that is here. Unfortunately, that means that it is nearly impossible to remove once it decides to grow and take over the top graft if those roots are deep. You can't dig down to where the root sprouts come from the roots to twist them off. You'd need a jackhammer to get those roots out. That's why I grow own-roots.

  • lavenderlacezone8

    Straw, thanks for this super discussion! I'll add more on that list of roses that you asked about as soon as I can. Gardening today in 110 heat index!

  • strawchicago

    Lavenderlace: Look forward to your info. Without your experience in clay vs. sand for your 200+ roses, I would not be able to "code" own-root roses.

    Kelly: Thank you for those gorgeous pics. of Darcy Bussell, and many thanks for posting the pic. of stunt & pale Alnwick rose (with bagged cow-manure) in rose-forum. Honesty and accuracy about one's garden benefits far more people than just posting pics.

    noseometer...7A...ABQ I learn from rooting roses from cuttings for the past 3 years, and from growing 110 varieties of own-root-roses, to grow them from tiny-band to 7-year-own-roots. My zone 5a winter kills a lot of roses .. I dug them up and take pics. of their roots, their roots are ALL different from each other, from cluster-root of multiflora, to tap-root of Dr.Huey, to rope-like root of Basyes Blueberry, bulky & chunky root of Romanticas, steel-cable roots of Centifolia, and to very deep-root Austin roses (most hardy in cold-zones).

    My minor in college was chemistry, so I'm always interested in soil chemistry and how that relate to own-root performance. I did a lot of experiments just to understand how things work. There's a process called "acid-phosphatase" which roots secrete acid to get phosphorus from soil, so baby-own-roots have to be "spoon-fed" with SOLUBLE fertilizer at first to bloom .. but as their roots mature to woody, they secrete more acid to utilize hard-minerals in soil, and bloom better.

    However, multiflora-parentage roots stay as shallow cluster-root longer, thus best for high-rain & loamy soil. French Meilland and Romantica roses are vigorous & acid-producers and become woody-fast, so they bloom well with alkaline-tap water. French roses are bred in hot & alkaline regions, versus Austin roses in cool & rainy climate.

    I tested the pH of white-pine-needles, both fresh, and few-months old, in red-cabbage juice, and it's NEUTRAL in pH. There's a debate about this in soil forum, and many people testified that it's neutral pH. But pine-shavings (sold for $8 for a HUGE bag at Walmart in pets' section), and pine-bark (brown & chunky), both tested at pH 4 (University Extension also reported the same value).

    It takes much longer for pine to break-down, so it won't release acid fast like greens or alfalfa. But pine-bark, soaked in acidic rain water, do get VERY ACIDIC, below pH 4. That's how my last garden of acidic clay & mulched with pine-bark & tons of acidic rain became a BS-fest.

    I thought about listing my 110 varieties of own-root roses as to their soil & rain and pH requirement. But it's time-consuming and I have weird varieties that no one grow. So I summarized the below info. in my Houzz profile:

    "Austin, French Meilland, and hybrid tea like my heavy alkaline clay. Albas, damasks, hybrid perpetual, and esp. Rugosas & hybrid Musk prefer sandy and loamy soil & need good drainage. Multiflora prefers high-rain & acidic loamy soil, but wichurana (Dr. Huey) prefers drier & alkaline clay.

    My code for OWN-ROOT roses: PALE LEAVES prefer loamy or acidic rain. DARK-GREEN prefer heavy/alkaline clay & OK with alkaline tap-water. GLOSSY: best with partial shade & wet. TINY LEAVES prefer loamy & drought-tolerant (species). LARGE LEAVES = vigorous & deep root. THICK LEAVES = heat tolerant.

    5-leaflet = modern roses, OK with alkaline tap-water

    7-leaflet or thornless or blue-color = multiflora & cooler sites & loamy & high-rain

    7-leaflet and many prickles = drought-tolerant Centifolia or Rugosa & prefer loamy/sandy & can handle hot & dry. " StrawChicago.

  • lavenderlacezone8

    Straw, sorry this took so long and it might not have enough details for you but that's a lot of roses! You've given so much of your time that it's the least that I could do. But it still took a while! Please let me know if you want me to elaborate further on any particular rose.

    I use soaker hoses, sprinklers, and hand water so my roses aren't subject to all of our droughts. With the exception of New Dawn, as none of them get anything at any time.

    All are growing well in sandy soil and I added notes if I had ones to compare also being grown in clay. If I didn't say much, that meant that they were doing fine with normal water in my climate. If I only mentioned sandy soil, that doesn't mean that they won't grow in clay, just that I haven't tried it yet.

    New Dawn- clay, sand, gravel, caliche, shade, full sun,
    tough as nails with horrible thorns.
    FAST grower.

    New Zealand, only tried sandy

    Neptune, only tried sandy soil, full sun, changed to afternoon shade when it got hotter

    Jude the Obscure,
    shade, full sun, and no direct sun, sand
    and clay, much better in sand and extremely vigorous, leaves can be quite light
    here and prone to bs, but I probably water too much for tons of blooms.

    Sharifa Asma, sandy
    soil, regular water

    Ebb Tide, afternoon
    shade, sandy soil, extremely vigorous,
    tons of blooms, fragrance stronger second year, getting too tall in my climate,
    color everything from magenta to violet to occasionally dark purple.

    Evelyn, only tried sandy soil,
    full sun

    Frederic Mistral, only tried sandy
    soil, full sun

    Fragrant Plum, only tried sandy
    soil, afternoon shade

    Memorial Day, sandy
    soil and clay, fine in both,
    inconsistent plant when young, many behaved differently (some are big,
    some are small, right next to each other, etc…), doesn’t like to be too wet
    here, will drop leaves and blackspot, doing great in full sun. Local nursery says that this one doesn’t like
    wet feet in our climate. A Californian
    in dry air says that hers requires extra water.
    Here, MD wilts with too much water but produces huge blooms with
    comparatively less water.

    Tiffany, only tried sandy soil

    Parole (Buxom
    Beauty), only tried sandy soil

    Amazing Grace, sandy
    soil, quite vigorous. lots of big blooms. HMF has reports of being stingy so maybe this one actually likes the soil? I have seven, none in clay. Some afternoon shade, some morning shade.

    Lemon Spice, sandy
    soil and clay, doesn’t like too much water.
    Blooms all the time and does great in the heat. Wonderful fragrance.
    I irrigate but this one could possibly be drought tolerant as I
    deliberately skip them quite often.

    Midnight Blue, only tried sandy
    soil, blooms are everything from hot pink to blackish purple.

    Heritage, fine in both clay and sand, though started out
    slower in clay. Evergreen here. Full sun all the way to complete shade. Fragrance isn’t as great as reported here, as of yet, and blooms blow fast so
    there’s no burning. Getting very tall so
    using them as a landscape rose.

    Savannah, great in sandy soil, horrible for me in clay
    but I think that I might have let her get too wet. Doesn’t seem to need a lot of water, even in
    sand. Beautiful foliage summer and
    winter, evergreen here. Blooms started
    out hard and flat and coral, then changed to big and a peachy soft color. Always fragrant, very long lasting blooms. I would love to hear how she does in clay if the water is controlled!

    Grande Dame, very vigorous in sandy soil (only tried), strong fragrance,
    lots of blooms, think this one is doing great for everybody

    Twice in a Blue Moon, delightful
    fragrance, even in high heat, wafts in vase. only tried in sandy soil, some full sun and some afternoon shade.

    Lagerfeld, only tried in sandy
    soil, some full sun, some afternoon shade

    Madame Isaac Pereire, this one is in a super fluffy
    composted alfalfa and coarse sand mix.
    Extremely vigorous in growth but the scent hasn’t developed yet. Straw thinks that she might prefer clay.

    Reine des Violettes, only tried in sandy soil

    Violet's Pride, only tried in sandy soil, drops leaves with too much
    water, very vigorous, lots of blooms.

    Earth Angel, only tried in sandy
    soil, fine in shade,

    First Crush, clay and
    sandy soil, both fine, shade and full sun, and afternoon shade

    Beverly, only tried in sandy soil, full sun

    Magnificent Perfume, only tried in sandy soil

    Charles de Gualle- hates my sandy pots, needs watering twice a day because it's too fast draining, candidate for clay?

    Love Potion, blackspotted horribly in sandy soil, couldn't keep it wet enough, now watering twice a day and keeping extremely wet, covered in blooms. Candidate for clay?

    Hope this helps somewhat!

  • strawchicago

    Lavenderlace: THANK YOU for taking the time to write that very useful list. What you did will help generations of rose-growers. I wish that I had known you earlier !! I can't thank you enough, esp. I lost $$$ from own-roots that died through unsuitability in soil/climate.

    In 2012, I bought own-root Eglantyne since I fell in love with its scent at Cantigny rose park (alkaline clay) ... but I didn't know that Eglantyne is best as GRAFTED, rather than own-root. I spent hours moving Eglantyne 3 times, from potting soil, to native clay, to sandy mix, then back to potting soil .. so glad that it died through my zone 5a winter.

    Even as grafted Eglantyne is really stingy at Cantigny rose park with clay, but gave many times more blooms at ALKALINE LOAMY soil Chicago Botanical Garden, but it lost its scent completely in their loamy soil.

    In 2012 I bought pale own-root Frederic Mistral: it refused to bloom, despite my digging it up to put Rose tone, alfalfa meal, etc. So I moved it to a DRY spot (with a roof-overhang that blocks out rain), then put 1 bag of coarse sand in the planting hole, plus SOLUBLE fertilizer, it gave 40+ blooms for spring flush. Fred tolerates the alkalinity of sand better than Austin roses.

    Sand works for dry spots, but doesn't work for wet & poor-drainage clay, since water drains slower through sand, than through pine-barks. Years ago local Menards had samples of bark-mulches, plus sample of sand. After days of rain, the mulches are dry, but the sand is soaking wet, and there's a weed sprouting inside the sand. That's the same year which I bought mighty stinky bagged cow-manure which gave a bumper crop for my tomatoes, but there's WEEDS in that manure to torture me for the next 5 years in that raised bed.

    Latter years the manure no longer stink & there's no weeds, but the manure stunt plants to 1/4 the size, and plants turned pale. I suspect they put QUICK LIME in both the cow-manure and sand-bags, to suppress weeds, resulting in disasters compared to excellent results years ago.

    Years ago my neighbor bought bagged top soil from Menards to fix holes in her lawn, there were tons of weeds sprouting from that bagged soil. She told me her lawn-company will spread quick lime to kill the weeds. Quick lime shoots up the pH, and kills any plants, including weeds.

  • Kelly Tregaskis Collova

    Ok, so I need to go edit my post on the other thread. Apparently I have been confused. I dug up what I thought was OR Alnwick Castle, to find out that it was really grafted Abraham Darby that I killed. So that means Alnwick is doing fabulous for cold zone sticky clay in part sun. Sorry about the mix up. Looking back I have very few pics of Abe. He was/is a stingy bloomer for me and seemed to do better when I first got him. Maybe part of that is the decline on huey? Is this one that does not like it alkiline? Maybe he does better OR?

  • lavenderlacezone8

    Straw, I had an "ah ha" moment after one of your posts. When we got two inches of rain at one time, all the plants responded well, though I hadn't allowed them to get particularly dry.

    But when I over-water sometimes, their leaves can immediately turn and the lower ones might bs. My well water seems to be about 7.5-8.

  • strawchicago

    Kelly: Agree with all your questions. Yes, Dr. Huey-rootstock declines, both I in zone 5a, and Seaweed in zone 9 California note that with Austin roses, the 1st-year as GRAFTED is fantastic: tons of blooms. But it's a decline in blooms for the 2nd year and onwards. There was more blooms than leaves on 1st-year-grafted-Jude the Obscure at rose park (at least a dozen blooms per bush), but for the 2nd year, there're only 2 blooms. And they get rid of that afterwards.

    Same with grafted-Munstead Wood at rose park. First year was fantastic (more blooms than leaves). Second year it's a sparse & gangly ugly bush, few lousy blooms & not worth taking pics. .. versus my own-root spreads out twice more in width.

    I saw pics. of Abraham Darby blooming well as tiny own-root in a pot, and I also saw Abraham Darby as a 7 foot tall giant-grafted-on-Dr.Huey with one bloom at alkaline-clay on its 2nd year. They get rid of it after that.

    It dawns on me why a nursery owner roots roses IN PLAY SAND. There's no chemical quick lime in play sand. The neighbor's kid left her play-sand in open rain, and there's tons of weeds sprouting. But I left my coarse-sand bag in open rain, and zero weeds. My neighbor used coarse sand to fill the cracks of her brick-patio, so they put quick-lime in coarse sand for folks who want to zap out weeds in brick-patio. That explains for my rooting failures when I used coarse sand to root cuttings.

  • strawchicago

    Lavenderlace: Just saw your post. What's great about brain-storming with a group of friends is: I realize things which I never realize before, just by exchanging ideas with honest folks. You helped me solve problems with bagged sand in my garden. Many thanks.

    Yes, watering with tap-water definitely ZAPS OUT POTASSIUM, which is vital for disease-prevention (esp. blackspot and mildew). There are a few Agricultural Studies that linked potassium deficiency to mildew, and potassium silicate is shown to help with blackspots. Evelyn was the only one that got pH 9 tap-water, since it's next to my faucet, and it went from strong & thick stems & blooms faced up to WEAK & THIN, DROOPY canes, all blooms face down.

    I have at least a dozen impatients flowers, there are 2 bowls of tap-water at the ends to feed the rabbits. I emptied the 2 bowls daily on 2 impatients .. those 2 REFUSED TO BLOOM, while the rest are blooming (with occasional rain-water).

    So I don't even give plants any pH 9 tap-water (stated on the village's website), unless it's fixed with sulfate of potash/gypsum, or they are wilting in the heat.

  • lavenderlacezone8

    That's a very good point Straw about the sand, THANK YOU! But I've had some play sand totally zap out the grass and now I think that's why my pots with it mixed in it were so unthrifty compared to native sand and/or a different brand.

    Probably all brands aren't the same and they never show if there are any added ingredients.

  • lavenderlacezone8

    Straw, our posts crossed. Brain-storming is indeed helpful, thank you!

  • noseometer...(7A, SZ10, Albuquerque)

    Straw and Lavenderlace, I'm going to have to make a list of the roses that you report do well in sand and replace the ones that aren't doing well with those. Too bad that Austins are my favorites, since I grow in dry alkaline sand. I'm going to have to get some pine chips. Or I can try many Austins to see which are exceptions to doing poorly in sand, expecting that a lot won't do well. So far for me, they are Bishop's Castle, Alnwick Castle, and Abraham Darby. The others are too young to tell, or not doing as well. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.

  • strawchicago

    Lavenderlace: Agree with products are different across the country. U. of Kentucky used BAGGED cow manure for their greenhouse experiment, and they reported a value of 4 for cow-manure from Indiana (near Michigan, where my Mom had fantastic experience using stinky cow manure from the farmer across her street). I tested BAGGED cow manure from HomeDepot, and the pH was over 8 (with quick-lime added to deodorize and kill weed-seeds).

    Bagged top soil here is sticky black clay, pH near 8. Government website reported a value of 4 to 5 for bagged top-soil from North Carolina. One person in Florida reported her bagged top-soil to be mostly sand.

    However, rabbits are the same across the country. I wonder, which roses rabbits and deer don't like to eat? During our June drought of 3 weeks of no rain, with temp. over 90 F, rabbits LOVE glossy & shiny foliage of FlowerCarpet (more water in leaves), but didn't eat the dull & pale foliage of Bohemian Rhapsody (bred in a sandy/hot climate, thus less water in the leaves). They ate my Asiatic Lilly's leaves (dark green & glossy) but left other perennials with dull leaves alone.

    So for rabbit-proof roses, the roses from Lavenderlace's list that thrive in sandy soil & hot Texas with temp. over 100 F, are less likely to be eaten. Rabbits don't eat the less-water-in-leaves: Frederic Mistral (pale leaves in my alkaline clay), Evelyn (thick leaves & heat tolerant), Sharifa Asma (dry & crinkled Rugosa heritage), and Lagerfeld (pale here).

    Rabbits go after the "dark-green & glossy" leaves which hold more water, and thrive in wet clay.

    Rabbits also ate the THIN-LIKE-LETTUCE leaves of BS-prone roses: Heirloom, Jude the Obscure, and Bridal Pink. One year I tasted the leaves just to find out: Knock-out's leaves are very bitter, but rabbits still eat that, so they definitely go for the water-content inside the leaves. Lynnie was bred in hot & dry California, and rabbits don't eat such leaves.

    If you taste the leaves of different own-root roses, you'll find that some roses are bred to be disease-resistant by being astringent (bitter) like Knock-out, other roses are bred to be disease-resistant by having LESS WATER in leaves, thus less prone to mildew and blackspot .. Lynnie's leaves are very thick (heat-tolerant), but dry (bred in hot & dry climate). Lynnie is superior to Knock-out, since it's drought-tolerant, and rabbit-proof. Knock-out doesn't bloom unless given tons of water, but Lynnie blooms easily during drought.

    Pat Austin's leaves are mild & alkaline & best-tasting. Pat Austin, with dark green & glossy foliage got eaten by rabbits, but thank God my giant bush (Excellenz von Schubert) is even glossier & holds more water in the leaves .. so rabbits ate ALL the leaves from that bush, except for the top. Husband made a comment "rabbits don't drink water, they EAT WATER." I left water bowls for the rabbits but only the birds use those bowls.

  • strawchicago

    For noseometer...7A...ABQ These Austin are the favorites of those in dry & alkaline regions (California, Arizona, Nevada), I list them in order of drought-tolerance as OWN-ROOTS:

    Wild Eric (Rugosa prefers loamy & dry), William Morris (Khalid's most vigorous own-root in hot Pakistan & loamy soil), St. Cecilia (hot & sand), Sharifa Asma (Rugosa heritage & sand & heat), The Dark-Lady (Rugosa heritage & loamy soil & drought-tolerant), Munstead Wood (loamy/dry/alkaline, but need shade), Pat Austin (blooms well with high pH-tap-water, but needs shade), Carding Mill (takes full-sun better than Pat, but needs soluble fertilizer or rain to bloom), Evelyn (heat-tolerant & alkaline), Tamora (heat & loamy & alkaline), Bishop's Castle, The Prince (heat & alkaline), Christopher Marlowe (blooms never fry in the heat, prefers loamy soil), The Endeavor & Mary Magdalene & Radio Times (heat & alkaline), Darcy Bussell (alkaline), Tess of the d'Urberville (need shade & like alkaline), and Heritage (loamy/sandy soil with rain). Jude the Obscure (neutral loamy or acidic rain), Crown Princess Magareta (vigorous for hot & dry but needs high potassium SOLUBLE fertilizer to bloom).

    Thanks to Lavenderlace, I'm moving Sharifa Asma from soaking wet dense clay to a drier & loamier spot. Lots of complaints against Abraham Darby from clay regions as to rust & stingy, same with William Morris (died in my soaking wet clay).

    In 2014 I hung out with Seaweed who posted gorgeous pics. in Organic Rose. She's from southern CA, with only 12" of rain per year & alkaline clay & 250+ roses. Her favorite Austins are the same as mine & we both have alkaline-tap-water.

    For sandy & dry & alkaline, the best choices are those WITH LESS PETALS, such as Sharifa Asma, Jude the Obscure, Tamora, Pat Austin, Heritage, Darcy Bussell & Munstead Wood, The Prince. Pat Austin is the favorite of those in hot & alkaline tap water, if planted in a pot in shade. The dark-red color also needs some shade for hot climate.

  • noseometer...(7A, SZ10, Albuquerque)

    That's PERFECT information for me! Thanks so much! I already have Sharifa Asma, Jude, Munstead. Now I have more options.

  • Kelly Tregaskis Collova

    Pat Austin new band last year. Is doing fairly well planted in more shade than most. Maybe 4 hours?

  • strawchicago

    Agree, 4 hours morning sun is best for my 2 Pat Austin. Carding Mill takes full-sun at 90 F better than Pat, but my Carding Mill as own-root needs acidic rain-water or SOLUBLE fertilizer to bloom, versus Pat can bloom easily with my fixed alkaline tap water (pH 9).

    However, Carding Mill as grafted-on-Dr.Huey blooms easily for dry & hot California folks. Will add Carding Mill to the list of hot & sandy/loamy/alkaline.

    Still remember Daisy in Crete (hot/dry climate) posted a tons of blooms Pat Austin in a pot & partial shade, watered with alkaline tap-water.

  • lavenderlacezone8

    This is extremely helpful, thanks Straw!

    That's particularly interesting about the rabbits as I hear that complaint from so many people. I have canine and feline assistance in this department!

  • lavenderlacezone8

    Posts crossed again!

    Kelly, your Pat Austin looks great. In my climate, the Austins seem to handle shade, all the way to full shade, the best. But when I check with a light meter, it's still pretty bright so maybe our shade is comparable to rainy England!

  • strawchicago

    Lavenderlace: I miss those wild-cats that chase rabbits away. But those wild-cats died after a few years in zone 5a winter.

    The ability to bloom with ALKALINE TAP water in hot & dry spell determines the success of an own-root.

    In HMF, if you click on NEW/RECENT, then click on COMMENTS, you'll see the daily discussion. This is from Puns n' roses, posted today 6/20/17 : "In Germany we are experiencing a very hot and dry summer ... All specimens - literally all - of Iceberg I see are heavily blackspotted, even the huge bushy ones. Burgundy Iceberg in my garden partly sported back to Brilliant Pink Iceberg and is also blackspotting (as are most of my roses this year). In my garden, Penny Lane, Aprikola, Arthur Bell and Christine Helene are the only healthy ones of 40+ roses. Blackspot infection levels in my garden vary from catastrophic (Paul's Himalayan Musk Rambler - I would hack it down, however the blackbirds have a nest in it, so I wait....) to very mild (Gloriana, Climbing Bonica), but of all the roses I've seen in the city, the only ones unaffected by blackspot are Dortmund and Westerland, even those standing next to an infested Iceberg." Puns n' Roses in HMF.

    From Straw: I grew Arthur Bell, after a sandy soil person raved about its drought-tolerance. That has DARK-GREEN & GLOSSY FOLIAGE, and bloomed easily with my alkaline tap water (pH 9). Then I pushed it too far, I never water it for the entire year, and it came down with blackspots. I killed it at the end, since I dislike its being prickly & less petals in the heat.

    My neighbor grows Westerland (dark-green & large foliage & super thorny) that blooms constantly with alkaline tap water & blazing hot full-sun. Never see blackspot on that one, but much less petals than Austin roses.

    LESS PETALS & DARK-GREEN & GLOSSY FOLIAGE like Pat Austin can be good in hot & dry & shade if given alkaline tap water ... while the pale ones refuse to bloom in hot & dry. Like Deep Purple (multiflora-parentage) & thornless .. that blackspotted & refused to bloom when given tons of alkaline tap-water in hot & dry. Multiflora prefers loamy & acidic rain & cool weather.

    Lots of complaints against Twilight Zone (from hot & dry regions), and it's VERY PALE & almost thornless as own-root for me, refuses to grow while The Dark Lady (prickly Austin & Rugosa) has lots of blooms as newly bought own-root & same with The Prince (prickly Austin), and Marie Daley (drought-tolerant Earthkind) .. watered with nursery's alkaline tap-water.

  • Kelly Tregaskis Collova

    sunrise sunset does fabulous for cold zones too. Sorry, my fingers got in the way.

    I am getting more impressed with summer romance by the day. Look at how many bloom and the size if this plant in zone 4!! Yes, I only planted it last year, but I really impressed with this one.

    It smells wonderful, too.

    Louis Odier has been doing very well also. Started blooming early. Planted as a 4" band last year.

  • witchygirrl6bwv

    I just moved last fall. Planted 16 own root from Chamblees. Didn't spray anything.
    The First Crush did the best. I have two. Both are healthy, both got
    alfalfa tea, and one has two new thick basal breaks. Love this rose. I
    always had bad luck with hybrid teas, but not these. The ones doing the worst are twilight zone, and love song. The two love song are bs magnets so far. The twilight hasn't 100% defoliated as bad, but growth on both are poor, though they do bloom on those tiny diseased canes. I've started trying neem on them.

  • lavenderlacezone8

    Thanks for that info witchygirl! Even though I removed a lot of First Crush from my best locations, they seem to be doing well without a lot of attention here in both sand and clay.

  • lavenderlacezone8

    I'm not sure if Khalid is still checking in on this thread, but I would add Abraham Darby, Evelyn, and Just Joey to the list of those that are doing super on own-root.

  • vaporvac

    Kelly, how did your Louise Odier do this summer in terms of BS? I'm considering her.

  • vaporvac

    I thought I'd update that 1st Crush is doing much better since transplanting and has not been plagued with BS. The blooms have really improved as well. All mentioned above continue to thrive. Those new this year that are doing extremely well in terms of BS and vigor are Gruss an Aachen, Peggy Martin, Cl. Clotilde Soupert, Cl. Pinkie, Mme. Alfred Carriere, and the Hybrid Musks Belinda, Penelope and Bubble Bath. I don't feel I can judge a couple yet, such as Lavender Lassie and Ballerina, although both have improved immensely since being planted in the ground. I have many still in pots and they struggle, but we'll see how they do once they're in the soil.

    Fingers crossed I finish my deer fencing this weekend and start raking some leaves!Then I hope to focus on felling some trees where I want my arbors to go. : )

  • flowersaremusic z5 Inland NW

    Yea! for you, Vaporvac! Been there, done that, and what a difference it made. I hope you find that the deer fence and opening the garden up to more sunlight will bring surprises and success you didn't even expect. My roses jumped from the gnawed off stumps the deer would leave behind to 4' and even 6' the first year they were not constantly being deer pruned. And the sunlight will be such a bonus! You'll have renewed enthusiasm for your roses next spring.

  • vaporvac

    Thank you, FRM! I didn't finish the fencing, but I got most of the broken posts replaced. I actually have a split rail fence lined with green chainlink, but some posts rotted and it's only 5' tall. I'm adding taller pieces of wood and running netting to make it ~7'-8'. This is only on one side; the rest has a 7' tall metal fence hidden by a hedge and also a wooden fence 6' tall. They've jumped the latter trying to escape, but I've never seen them enter through there as it's a steep incline. We'll see. I'm going to leave something tempting as an experiment.... Zaide has plenty of growth to sacrifice. ; ) My main hold up has been finding staples to fit my electric staple gun!

    Anyway, I thought I'd post a link to a conversation over at the Antique Rose Forum, since they list many DAustins that do well own root and a few that seem to benefit from grafting.


  • flowersaremusic z5 Inland NW

    Even the shorter fenced areas will deter them at least a little. I hope they don't bother your garden during the winter as much as the growing season. By spring, you'll have a good start at repairing or replacing the broken posts and a good plan as to how to proceed. Hope you find those staples! I hope Zaide doesn't suffer too much in the mean time.

  • vaporvac

    Well, the netting on the more open exposed area was a complete failure! Tomorrow I have welded metal fencing that I'm attaching instead so we'll see how that goes in keeping them out! It wasn't a total waste of time since I'm using the same wooden posts to attach the wire. It seems to be working in the rest of the yard; fingers crossed! The broken posts have all been replaced so at least the split rail is solid again. That was a lot of work that I initially doubted I could do, but slow and steady won the race.

    P.S. I posted a new thread if anyone wants to comment with their best no-spray roses for BS.

  • jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

    Own root 1 gallon Carefree Celebration is the fastest rose bush I ever seen grow here...Instant large rose bush...(4x4) in just 2 seasons.....Own root 1 gallon Miracle on the Hudson grows decently fast here also...

  • DLEverette_NC_Zone7b

    When a rose doesn't perform well on its own roots, what does that specifically mean? I have access to a cutting of a rose that isn't sold any more by the nursery, but was said to not do well own root. Does that just mean it takes more time to perform well, or is it something more?

  • witchygirrl6bwv

    DL It usually means it can be on the wimpy side, and needs the extra strength from a more vigorous root. Most of mine are own root. All but Peach swirl, and Sugar moon, and I think own root are bushier than grafted roses in the long run, because they throw out a wider set of basal canes. I also like not worrying if a cane is root stock or not. I wasted my first year of rose growing babying Dr huey, and hating myself and roses because of it. I gave up for a while, then started googling if there were any roses that grew on their own roots. (A lot actually)

  • totoro z7b Md

    Lady of Shallot is very vigorous, and quick reblooming even in part shade. It gets lots of water

  • jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

    I can tell you that our own root (Kordes) PLUM PERFECT and we have two own root Fiji (Kordes) roses and they are growing like SNAILS here in zone 6!

    All started out as one gallon roses:

    Fiji on the left is in its 3rd season...Right: In its 2nd season...

    PLUM PERFECT IN ITS 2nd season...Yep dwarfed by Marigolds.,...LOL

    I would not recommend either of these roses own-root in a cooler climate anyhow... I suppose they might do ok in warmer climates???

  • flowersaremusic z5 Inland NW

    I don't think it's the climate, Jim. We got our Plum Perfects the same year and mine is going gang busters. And, believe me, you're the better, more knowledgable gardener! I think you got some wimpy plants to start with. Or, they were so badly affected by all the virus problems you had the last couple years, they just don't have any umph left. I know, 'once bitten, twice shy', but I'd try again with a new one if you'd really like to grow Plum Perfect. I don't know anything about Fiji, never having grown that one.

  • rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)

    Although I haven’t posted on the Organic Rose forum, I enjoy reading many of the discussions. I’ve particularly appreciated Kahlid’s (the OP’s) many comments and pictures.

    It seems he has not posted here in quite sometime. I found no mention of him leaving this forum. I hope all is well. Does anyone have any info?

  • vaporvac

    Nothing. I know he was moving into a new house and he is a very demanding job. It was a period of some small drama so maybe he gave up then. I posted on his other sites hoping he would respond but nada.

  • jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

    Hummm flowersaremusic...Is your PP grafted or own root?

    I made a thread on the other forum about Plum Perfect its growing slow for others also but fast for some...lol...Who knows...

    Heres the thread:


  • jim1961 Zone 6a Central Pa.

    flowersaremusic...Is your Plum Perfect grafted or own root?

  • flowersaremusic z5 Inland NW

    Own root, Jim. Bought as a 4" band from Northland, same year you bought yours. I bought another one this year at Walmart. I'm sure it's grafted, but since I plant all my roses deeply, I don't even remember checking.

  • flowersaremusic z5 Inland NW

    Jim, from the photos, your Plum Perfect has caught up and looks robust and healthy this year. I took this photo of mine this evening. It blooms more continually than in flushes. I just deadheaded this one a couple days ago, and it still has a lot of buds.

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