Here in Northern CA, where we have a "Mediterranean" climate (ie, long warm/hot dry summers and cool wet winters), we ALWAYS plant in the Fall. That way the plants can get established and grow roots during the cool wet winter. However, we don't have any snow and very few freezes in winter - do you?

One recommendation I can make it to plant LOTS of South African bulbs, and So African plants like agapanthus. They evolved in climates like ours - they go dormant in the dry summers, but bloom fabulously in the Spring. I have sparaxis and ixia, there are many more. Oh, salvia leucantha (Mexican sage) also does well in this climate w/o summer water.

The main thing to know you have already figured out - you have to find out what works in your conditions by trial and error, not believing books or catalogues. What I do is plant several things, see which ones do very well, and then plant more of whatever that is.

Jackie

I agree about fall planting: it gives plants time to get established before the summer drought next year. My planting season is after the fall rains begin, usually in October, through the end of the year.

My climate is I believe similar to yours, and we too don't water after the first year. I don't know if we have similar soils: ours in the sunny garden is near pure clay that requires heavy amendment for anything to grow, but which is then moisture-retentive. The sunny garden is currently in that phase of development where grass grows pretty well, but only the toughest perennials (think common daylily) can get started and resist being smothered. Mainly I grow Mediterranean subshrubs that are big enough to get their heads above the grass. These are tough plants, but our soil needs to be amended even for them.

I grow rosemary (this occasionally dies, perhaps it gets waterlogged), hybrid lavender, shrub germander (a big favorite, in both senses of the word), Mexican sage (S. greggii), common sage from seed (handsome bloom, good foliage in summer, sadly ugly in winter), artemisia 'Powis Castle' (I think it is), which is beautiful and unkillable but monstrously vigorous, so you have to keep it under control, and to my nose it stinks. Caryopteris, especially the named hybrids, is good. I also find this one stinky. Also lavender cotton, another stinker, but durable. Oh, heavens, I forgot phlomis. Most of these make good-sized subshrubs, the dimensions of a big rosemary (they can be pruned), but there are creeping ones. In sun these can take anything. They're very handsome foliage plants, and they bloom. I have three shrubby species whose names I don't know. Sometimes they seed. A good plant is Euphorbia characias--this gets large--though I don't know whether it takes heavy soil well: mine is in thin soil over rocks, where it seeds around. A rather rough-looking but agreeable filler is Teucrium hircanicum, with spikes of purple flowers, which seeds about but doesn't get invasive.

I'm very fond of thyme, but it tends to get run over. I have a lot of pepper thyme, one of the creepers, but it seems to do best in part shade. It looks good running through prostrate rosemary. Pinks, which I love, grow but get overrun with grass; tall bearded irises thrive, but, as you told me, porcupines adore them. I actually am happy to have my beds fill with annual grass, and any number of pretty spring annuals come along with it: native geraniums, wild peas, euphorbias (some are pretty, some are ugly), veronicas, English daisies, some of the galiums (not the awful pest G. aperine). Saponaria officinalis is native and attractive. Native field sage, Salvia pratensis, is good looking and very tough. I have many plants that I like, but that may be too rough for a more refined garden, such as the native mulleins--though these are very handsome, actually--and a daisy subshrub with fragrant sticky foliage and yellow flowers.

Very popular locally are fall-blooming asters, running about three feet tall, in shades of pink and purple. I don't know their names: ours came from seed we were given. These are good looking, totally healthy and unkillable, though they disappear in winter. They seed, moderately. They are rather coarse I must admit. There are frailer blue varieties, a more select color, possibly bred from different species. Globe thistle/Echinops is good looking and manageable, seeds around some, is ugly in winter. Achilleas, native fennel and the bronze form come to mind.

Plain Paeonia officinalis, not the named varieties, is amazingly tough and resistent, though it grows better in kinder conditions. Mine has never seeded, but it increases fast and can be divided (and will come from bits of root with no bud eyes). I'm just experimenting with Lactiflora peonies in the big garden, though in part shade. Do you have sweet violets and strawberries? These might take kindly to positons under the roses.

I've had agapanthus close to the house, in part shade, for a decade, and it has done fine. I'm not sure how it would do in very hot dry conditions. Up here in Piacenza I'm a bit doubtful whether the South African plants would be able to take the winters; your area may be warmer.

This is all I can think of. I purposely left out discussion of bulbs since this is a lot of information already. Many of these plants are vigorous coarse creatures, not suitable for a well-groomed, refined garden, but this is what I can grow in sun and dense soil with little maintenance. If your soil is lighter than mine the adapted plant population might be very different. Have you looked at local wild plants? Are you interested in them?

From my experience, Bart, I would recommend, with few exceptions, NOT planting South African bulbs in the ground, unless you want invasive masses that are only relatively briefly green and then leave you with dead foliage and/or bare ground for the rest of the year. I enjoy those mainly confined to pots; a couple of species that have "naturalized" in the garden have become annoying, and even counter-productive, in most cases -- and once there, are almost impossible to eradicate. What I have preferred is something that has a presentable presence of some sort all year round without being obnoxious.

A lot of what you mention as failing for you also fail here. Campanula poscharskyana works here with minimal water, but only in the shade -- all the rest have fizzled out for me. The creeping thymes require summer water, but the shrubby ones do not, and I use those (they stay compact) on the edges of my rose beds, which do not get irrigation. The one I really love is Thymus mastichinum, which has fuzzy-ball white blooms and, to me, one of the most enticing leaf scents in the entire plant world. I have also used Thymus capitatum successfully like this. These Saturejas are also good for me: S. spinosa and S. thymbra. There is also the Teucrium lancifolium. All of these survive, stay green, and even bloom (small flowers, of course) without summer irrigation even in extreme heat (and a lot of these come from your part of the world, including a long-blooming and ethereal pink species I love, Dianthus monspessulanus, which gets by on minimal water -- I haven't subjected it to total summer drought, so don't know about that). These oreganos, Origanum sipyleum and O. microphyllum, are drought hardy and not invasive the way some oreganos are.

The one S. African plant I use on the edges of the rose bed and can highly recommend is Salvia muirii, which stays just over a foot tall and a couple of feet wide and blooms, literally, all summer and fall, beautiful clear blue blooms, very tidy bushes -- wants a well-drained position (soggy winter roots are not its thing, and it is only good to zone 9a, so it is tender).

The pygmy Jerusalem sage, Phlomis lanata, yellow flowers, stays about 1.5' tall and is in full south-facing sun with no summer water at all, but stays presentable. Another yellow that persists and blooms without water is Oenothera longiflora, which will seed itself around but not so much as to be annoying, like some of its congeners are.

Definitely plant in the fall when rains start, and, if possible, give a few supplemental irrigations the following first summer and ONLY during the first summer (that first-summer watering is more like "insurance", since many of these plants don't get that under natural conditions -- on the other hand, these species do tend to naturally recruit only in the most favorable, wetter years, not every year).

Slightly ot: Melissa, you comment that paeonia officinalis will grow from root fragmants. Of the hybrid peonies, I have found that the corals will also do this, in a way that I have not found the lactifloras generally to do. They also seem to tolerate heavier soil here. I think they are a closer species out crossing.

Bart, I don't have a Med climate, but I do have very, very dry, sandy droughty soil with a lot of tree competition, and I have a short list of plants that I've found bullet proof. I also don't do watering in general except for expensive things that I really need to be sure establish well, and I suspect even then I'm a bit lax compared to more dedicated gardeners here!

I can list things that have survived for me if you'd like.

Your conditions sound a bit like mine. Southeast Texas has long, hot summers and mild (sometimes wet) winters. I have found that, generally speaking, perennials really hit their striide in the 2nd or 3rd year in the ground. Salvias, especially salvia farinacea and gregii do well, along with lantanas, cupheas, daylilies, louisiana iris and as Jackie mentioned South African bulbs. Santolinas and Germanders do well for me as well.

Molly

Hi Bart. I can't add much. No doubt Melissa is your best source of advice. I would echo her on salvias (though in my experience many become thugs, spreading by bits that touch the ground rooting), phlomis which is well-behaved, achilleas, artemesia (looks nice scrambling around under roses, and isn't greedy). As I've said before, I love perennial wallflowers under roses - not sure on their drought hardiness though. I know you've said you've planted shrubs: have you any of the smaller buddleias? Lochinch is pretty, and not straggly, and there are some that only grow to 3'. Also, there are some small ceanothus. And iris? I'd also add, that a number of my perennials got shaded out by the roses, so maybe plant the sunlovers well away.

Trish

Addenda: I forgot nepeta, smaller than most of these but able to hold its own. Iris unguicularis has been hardy for me, and blooms in winter. I like this one. I think I have the species, but I there are named varieties: they'd be worth looking up. Iris orientalis, formerly Iris ochroleuca, is a traditional plant here, which gets large. The porcupine doesn't appear to have a taste for either of these. Also worth mentioning, "mentuccia", which, if I can believe Wikipedia, is Clinopodium nepeta, alias Satureya nepeta, alias Calamintha nepeta, alias Calamintha officinalis. This is a nice little plant. It seeds around and gets ratty in winter, but is pleasant to eye and nose and easy to rip out where you don't want it. Low growing.

Perhaps I should add, about my soil, that I believe the Ph is probably around neutral.

fduk, I'm always glad to talk about peonies, and I doubt bart will object to our bringing it up. What are corals? My garden budget (and my garden ambitions) are such that I don't have a lot of money for peonies, but I'm interested in the Officinalis peonies and in the Mediterranean kinds in general, as well, of course, as being dedicated to Lactifloras and tree peonies. Peonies forever!!

Thank you all; I'm gonna have to do some Google-ing, since I don't know many of the plants mentioned.

Melissa's conditions are the closest to mine, IMO. I don't think that South African stuff would do too well in my garden; we DO get snow,and sometimes something approximating true cold (-8 Celsius,though that is going to make a lot of northerners laugh). I know for sure that one thing on which I want to concentrate is adding evergreen stuff, to help shade out weeds. I've seen that keeping up with good mulching is not really going to be sustainable for me. It's obviously been a BIG help to my soil and plants, but my garden is just too big,my purse too small, and my physical possibilities too limited for me to keep it properly mulched,so one main goal is to create a living mulch. I'd like to get the paths covered with evergreen "steppable" groundcovers, to keep weeds down and soil cooler.But I have a lot of thinking to do about what to put between the roses, especially since many of said roses are still too young and small to deal with competition. Salvias, for example,do VERY well as plants, but the ones I put out by now don't flower very well at all,just get bigger and greener and lustier; obviously NOT a good matey for a young rose! Then there are the ceanothus reptans: in theory an excellent idea; only problem is, apparently in real life these things can get much, much bigger than the size stated,so placing is important...

Fduk, please DO list stuff that's good for your garden, if it's not too much trouble!

A flat, native, evergreen, drought-tolerant ground cover (runs along the ground, no higher than 1/2" or so) here is Phyla nodiflora (aka "turkey tangle fogfruit" -- I have NO idea what that means...), which is fairly hardy (zone 8, at least) and also tolerates alkaline conditions. In the verbena family and has small pink verbena-like flower heads. I don't know if it would be available in Europe, though.

I had a bed with forget-me-nots and yellow reblooming iris in a previous garden. The forget-me-nots made a great weed free mat, even smothering onion weed, to my amazement.

Bart, Not related to plant selection but perhaps helpful: At one time I collected water, in my case from a downspout but in your case rainwater, into a galvanized tub. It was about 2' across and a little less than 1.5' tall. These are used for animal feed troughs and are relatively inexpensive. You could partially bury it so it would look more like a pool and less like an eyesore. Larger would be better or perhaps multiples. Cover it/them during the dry season to limit evaporation. If you rationed carefully, these might help.

Cath

Are the corals one such as Coral Charm, a fairly recent hybrid? It's a favorite of mine. Diane

I wouldn't be at all surprised, nanadoll; still hoping to hear back from fduk. Thanks for the suggestion.

A couple more plants I forgot: rue/Ruta graveolens, and Centranthus ruber. This last died out where I had it growing in a terraced area, but the white form has held out for several years in heavy soil and full sun.

Bart, Ceanothus thyrsiflora repens can get big. Our plant on the terrace, in loose soil and sun, is probably about 3' x 7' x 5'. My sister calls it an indefinite spreader.

On my part, fduk, thanks for this. All the information is interesting, and I was really wondering about those peonies.

Thank you SO much, fduk; I'm going to have to get busy looking up some of the ones in your list that I've never heard of. But one thing really catches my eye: Lithodora! I love those true-blue flowers, but I tried it once and all three plants died. It was one of those things that make me ask if that plant just can't stand my soil? my climate? The three plants were hale and happy in their pots,but once planted out in my garden dwindled steadily away. Does it need acid soil or something? I think mine is pretty neutral,slightly alkaline perhaps. I'd like to try it again,since it is so beautiful.

What an interesting thread. I'm bookmarking it. I think that Daisy has to chime in also. She seems to know her perennials and has gardened both in England and in the med climate of Crete.

I think lithodora does prefer neutal to acid - it's not a true acid lover though. I on the opposite side would love gypsophila but kill it rapidly every time!

So I can't grow these here, but for more alkaline soils, gypsophila as mentioned, there is a creeping form, reptans that I love, cistus, maybe convulvulus ceonoroum, possibly vinca major in shade, ballota pseudodictamnus, winter savoury, can't think of anything else right now that hasn't already been mentioned.

Gypsophilia did OK for me; I can't remember why it died; probably I tried to move it.

I think my soil is around 7-8 on the ph scale, so only slightly alkaline. I wonder if I could fix it by adding , say, peat moss and cracked corn, maybe fertilizing with stuff for acidophile plants. Another thought occurs : the question of drainage. As I mentioned before, none of the creeping thyme plants I bought survived, yet I do have creeping thyme growing in other spots on my land: very, very rocky spots ,with almost no visible soil on top. So maybe the garden's soil was too heavy for them? My lithodora experience happened several years ago, so I don't remember much, but I have this vague idea that I was under the impression that it wanted "ample moisture" or something,which now I'm gathering is far from true. Some areas of my garden have heavy clay; maybe this was a factor in killing them off???

pH 8 signifies the soil is pretty alkaline. 8.5 is in the very alkaline realm and in the limits of soil where 'most things but acidophiles can be grown'. Very many plants will exhibit iron chlorosis in a 8.5 soil. Remember the scale is not linear, it's logarithmic. 0.3 points more signify 'double' the alkalinity.

Real Med native plants DO NOT LIKE summer watering nor too much organic material or nitrogen in the soil.

I don't think Gaura's have been mentioned to you yet bart... they grow well in hot southern California, as they do here too providing they don't get too much winter wet..

I grow both pink and white varieties. If you cannot grow these, then I would question just what you could grow at the moment if your conditions are so inhospitable. Do you not have any already? I find them invaluable I have to say..for dryish poor soil conditions..

I second Marlorena's suggestion of guara. I grow both large and dwarf varieties. So many of my so called drought tolerant plants couldn't survive the water restrictions and triple digit heat of summer, but the gauras did great in my garden. Supposedly, they like well draining soil, which mine is not, but I have them on a slight downhill slope, so they did fine with El Nino rains in winter. The variety I have has burgundy and green foliage which is beautiful even when not in flower. They have a long blooming time. Mine are booming now in late winter/early spring and will keep going through summer.

Ok, went away and thought about it some more while weeding. (Ruddy spanish bluebells!)

Hellebores

Muehlenbeckia
complexa

Verbascum

Eringyniums

Mallows

Anthemis
tinctoria

Lupins

Borage

Brooms

There's a creeping eunonymus as well that might be good for you, spacing on the cultivar name though sorry.

I'm definitely going to try gauras; they look beautiful. But again, about lithodoras: Nik,fduk says it's not a true acid lover, and my soil isn't that alkaline; if it was, wouldn't I have more chlorosis issues? People say that Reine des Violettes is prone to chlorosis in alkaline soil; mine have never had it. I seem to have an impression that Excellenz Von Schubert sometimes shows mild cases of it, but my plants are all very young. What about the drainage issue; what do you think of that? the thing about the creeping thyme failing in the actual garden, but being happy elsewhere? I'm curious to try this plant again,messing with the soil a bit. I do see that on the Perennials forum, somone says that it's easier to alkalinize one's soil than it is to acidify it,but maybe soil ph isn't what the problem was...

Gauras can become a noxious weed over here.

Bart, if you haven't really being bothered by chlorosis on various plants your soil is probably neutral or slightly alkaline so you can grow most plants with no problems.

Thymes in general do not like their feet too wet in the winter and wet in the summer. They prefer sandy well draining soils. They can be bothered by root rots if grown in too wet conditions especially during the warm period. I don't know about creeping thyme specifically, though.

The dark blue in the foreground in this photo is Lithodora 'Grace Ward', I think one of the finest ground coverers there are for us here, providing you give it the right conditions. You can see the kind of company it prefers to keep... at least in this country, I don't know about anywhere else, but like this, it bloomed for me 9 months of the year, even into January I counted 40 flowers on it and all through summer... this bed has changed somewhat and I moved it to another part of the garden, more alkaline, certainly above 7.0, where it dried up and turned brown very quickly... I wouldn't want to make that mistake again...

I still have a couple of these Azaleas and that's where I'll be putting my new 'Grace Ward's' when I get them...

Perovskia atriplicifolia, Pelargoniums, Alstomerias, Aster x frikartii Monch and Verbena hybrids are happy in a dry garden..

Artemisia Powis Castle, seen here in an August heat wave.

Verbena bonariensis, here with the annual Nicotiana sylvestris.

Calamintha nepetoides, not yet in flower, with Rehmannia elata, ivy-leaved pelargoniums, Achillea Cerise Queen and another artemisia. All good in dry conditions.

Pinks, sedums and Lychnis coronaria. The lychnis seeds around beautifully. The pinks can sometimes be short lived, but are easy from cuttings.

Another one that seeds around nicely. Erigeron karvinskianus Profusion.

Flowers all summer and into winter.

Sorry, computer is playing up.

Daisy

Yikes, fduk! Broom is an out-right enemy for me,lol! I've got it all over the place on my property,and am struggling to eradicate it from the garden! I've also got tons of wild hellebores,which I like a lot, though they don't seem to tolerate being moved. I've been wanting to try non-wild mallows and verbascum, because the wild ones are natives. I was under the impression that lupins neede a lot of water and a cool climate, but maybe I'm wrong; the others I'll have to look up, but thanks so much for this new list.

I'm intrigued now enough by this lithodora question that I think I will try it again; after all, one or two plants won't be a big investment.

Bart, I've moved Helleborus foetidus and H. viridis, our two natives, with about 100% success, though the latter has been slow to establish. H. foetidus is relatively short lived, but seeds around. Also the garden hellebores, mosty H. orientalis cultivars I believe, can be moved. They all need part shade to shade and fairly cool conditions.

I haven't grown brooms myself, but I understand there are many highly regarded garden varieties.

Bart, your thyme may do better with a gravel mulch. It doesn't need to be deep. The purpose is to keep the crown drier especially during winter. Here we have heavy clay soil and plants that were technically cold hardy to our zone, e. g., lavender, would die some winters without the gravel mulch because the crowns were too cold and wet.

Cath

Thanks, all! Daisy, your garden is so beautiful. But I wonder how late-summer bloomers like asters would do in mine, since I can't water(no running water out there, so only new implants get watered in their first year in order to establish). Melissa, I wonder what I am doing wrong with the hellebores??? I think mine are H. foetidas.Cath, I do want to try thyme again; maybe adding sand to the soil,and, as you suggest, gravel. I don't think the plants I had didn't die due to winter wet, though. If memory serves, I planted them out in early, early spring and they just died off in the course of the summer. It is possible, too, that the plants just weren't very good ones.

I have had my best luck with Helleborus argutifolius here, which does beautifully, little or no summer irrigation. My attempts with H. foetidus have all failed -- it doesn't seem to bear extreme heat as well as H. argutifolius.

Our late summer asters thrive without supplementary water. It may depend on the variety. They're amazing plants.

I want to revive this old thread of mine from 8 years ago. So much has happened since then! but now, once again, I want to try perennials. I'll get back to this as soon as I can.

OK, this ties in nicely with my "Comparing Blue Salvias" thread, so I wanted to revive it and re-read it.

Now, it's 8 years later, and many health problems, plus the ever-worsening summer climate in Italy, have slowed my progress considerably. But now, here I am, stuck at home by the need to recover from hip replacement ,and so I've been passing the time in part by planning my new foray into perennials. Hopefully, this time I'll have better luck. First of all, I have installed a DIY drip system in 2 areas of the garden. Secondly, I'm ordering perennials from an on-line nursery this time, rather than getting them from local stores -and I'm recieving them now, so I can grow them on in pots for a couple of months before putting them out in the garden in the fall,which is THE time to plant stuff here (fall, and winter,at least for trees and shrubs -roses included).

I have ordered:

1) Nepeta Six Hills Giant

2) 3 salvia Caradonna

3) 3 ajuga Black Scallop

4) phlox sub. Mac Daniel's Cushion

5) 3 phlox sub, Purple Beauty

6) 2 salvia Sensation Deep Blue

7) gentian scabra Luis Blue

My selection was partly conditioned by availability,as well as financial concerns (that is why I only got one of some of them). I also checked out the Jelitto perennial sed site,selecting plants that are not offered as seeds,and I tried to get stuff that will more or less bloom with the roses, though that is a big incognito. On the nursery's site, they said the salvias should start in May,though the tags say June, but clearly only time will tell for that.

I also have a few columbines, iris and saponarias ordered previously,plus a lithodora and 2 Veronica Georgia Blue. I'm hoping to put most of these plants in the floribunda beds which are ob drip. Maybe I'll get lucky this time?

Hi, Bart-bart. I have no idea what will grow where you are and have no suggestions. I did notice that many of the plants you are ordering are easy to propagate. I would order small numbers like you and work on propagating a few more. BTW can you grow salvia coccinea where you are? That one will bloom again if I cut it back and is a prolific self seeder. Poor soil and drought are only a minor inconvenience for it here. Many salvias here are vigorous and drought tolerant.

Thanks, Karen. I'd like to keep this thread alive for the future, since there are many , many good suggestions in it that I hope to try some day. I'll look up salvia coccinea...

Hello, bart! I didn't realize this thread was from you. Good luck with your new foray into perennials.

I'm happy to say that, what I said eight years ago, I stand by now. Well, with an addendum about very heavy winter rain. If I can ever get my grass reduced to tolerable levels, which I doubt, I'll think about perennials. There are lovely wild ones like anthemis, and a couple of annuals that pop up, a pale dusty pink and a silvery blue veronica. What came to mind recently was the possibility of mulleins as self-seeding biennials that could stand up even to meadow grass. There are two species that grow wild locally, both with a handsome rosette of velvety gray-green leaves, and stalks of yellow flowers that grow several feet high. These mulleins flourish in waste places, so ought to be able to grow in my garden. I tried to start fennel, too, but that failed. The hybrid caryopteris is still alive, though. I could add more plants of that.

There are some lovely garden photos in this thread, aren't there? I hope you can achieve beauty somewhat akin to that.

Bart, I loved reading this. So many helpful ideas! We've had some wonderful creative gardeners here. I hope they are doing well and still gardening.