I think that to some extent part of the issue is that fairly intact antique housing stock continually diminishes, and what constitutes and "old house" changes.

When I moved from the 1838 building I lived in to a 1965 house, I did post some things about it at that time, and a couple people sort of brushed it off and said that a fifty year old house was " not an old house" and not really of particular interest to the forum.

It didn't matter that what I wanted to do was bring the house closer to the architect's original intent, and undo inappropriate 2000s bathrooms and vinyl replacement windows, the house was sorta dismissed as "too new".

I also think fewer and fewer are doing that type of full on restoration of antique houses, which either require a lot of DIY or a lot of money.

I'm afraid genuinely old houses have gone the way of antique stores. Nobody wants one. I can't picture a shiny white with ss appliances and a granite counter in any old house that I really liked. You're right. White and 50 shades of gray. I think it's a generation gap. We like old stuff for so many reasons and the rest of the world wants disposable.

Floor plans with no walls doesn't give them anywhere to place furniture so they don't have any. Bathrooms must be smooth and shiny and no color in case the next buyer doesn't like that color. I've so often wanted to ask how long they're planning to live there before they put the house up for sale. A year? Two years? and the decorating they are doing today will appeal to the next buyer at some undetermined date? If they stay 10 years the decor will be dated. It will. There is no way to choose colors today that will last for 10 years or more and still be "current". That bland interior they chose will be changed by the next owner. Guaranteed.

To expand on palimpsest's comment: It takes a lot of DIY AND money to do any kind of restoration.

We love our"old" house( 1924), not a grey wall in site, although all the trim is white. I work in different new houses almost every day and would not trade this house for any of the million+ dollar houses that are being built these days. The builders over the last 30 years(most of them) don't even know how to use a level.

In case misery love's company,poorly thought out inquiries are also getting real common on other forums. One of my favs is "there's a horrible odor in my entry hall,where could it be coming from?". Not far behind is"my air conditioner has never cooled well,any help is appreciated".

I've been here since at least 2000 and don't see a lot of change to this forum. I find it rather slow moving--not a whole lot of posters. Perhaps that's what you mean by change. I get a lot more traction from the several reincarnations of the Wavy Glass forums.

In my neck of the woods, the vast majority of housing stock was built between 1880-1930, so old houses are everywhere, much sought after, and lots of restoration going on all the time. Perhaps because I'm immersed in it (I'm on my fourth old house restoration now) and it is all around me I just don't find much on this forum. On the other hand, I am also quite experienced at this point so I don't need as much advice as I once did.

I did just finish restoring my kitchen in my 1923 dutch colonial revival and posted photos on the kitchen forum. I got lots of positive comments including a number of those who said "just like gramma's kitchen!" and other nostalgic things. I'm so happy to live in a place that really feels like home!!

I am curious Emory, are most people actually restoring though, or remodeling? I look at real estate daily (and on a national level) and I often see the description "restored" or "restoration" and the house is clearly a fairly current remodel. By accident, if the house was built before WW II, the bathrooms and kitchen tend to look compatible because subway tile and 1900-to-1930s-inspired tile, plumbing and lighting fixtures are popular right now. But restorations, they are not, for the most part.

I am not saying you didn't restore, Emory, but most people anymore, I don't think know what restoration means. Restoration means it should look original, or at least like it could possibly be original. (Given the exclusions that most people can't have vintage toilets, ranges or refrigerators, not even if the rest of the kitchen or bath actually is completely original).

Emory, would you post your pictures here? I'm scared of the kitchen forum. When I "remodeled" my kitchen and it didn't have granite, tile floor, no white cabinets- they were hickory wood, no pot lights, a wallpaper back splash, no island, no prep sink, no island w/or without seating, etc. It was not well received!

In all the old houses I've lived in, I've restored and remodeled--both, depending on what the house needed. Eg. In my current home I spent two years systematically working around the dining room, living room, and hall to strip, stain, and revarnish the original oak woodwork. I'd call that "restore" as I am bringing it back to the original look. I'm now replacing a door that is clearly not original to the house with a new oak door in keeping with the home's vintage. The kitchen project was a "remodel"; we did go down to the studs but replacing cabinets, appliances, etc. is not a "restore." So the answer is: it depends. In all cases, as a lover of old homes, I've worked to keep the integrity of the home's original design but also make it livable for the present (esp. in the kitchen).

The kitchen forum (and the decorating forum) can be tough! I was surprised that my little box of a kitchen got some applause, because the usual norm there is for humongous "open concept" kitchens. In fact, one of the things that makes me shudder the most are old houses around here--a fair number of bungalows, for example--where people knock out the dining room wall, typically with the gorgeous oak buffet built-ins, to make a "breakfast bar" for the kitchen. Just terrible and so sad.

imhappy, here is the link to the kitchen forum site with my post. Thanks for asking!

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/4506819/finished-1923-kitchen-with-breakfast-nook?n=48

I'll take Emory's kitchen any day over what I mostly see around here.

There's a town near me that has about 1500 cottages built between WWI and 1950, and it's just agony trying to find one that hasn't been spoiled.

Here's a typical sample from a current listing.

First pic. Makes me think, "hmm, maybe…:

But then you click to the very next photo and see:

ETA However, at least the outside isn't too awful on that one because it's in a historic district. Outside the district one sees this:

Three guesses as to the style of that house. I was surprised, too, once I realized what it really was.

I wanted a nook like yours but there just wasn't room. My 1880 house has rooms but unfortunately the back porch became the kitchen at some point. If I would have known then what I know now.... and had a nice lottery winning to go with it....

I have also done restoration and remodeling in the same house. I searched high and low for tiles to fill in missing sections in my baths, researched how to remove rust stains from the orginal porcelain tubs, stripped lilac painted mahagony doors, replastered instead of patching with drywall and refused to change or remove any interior walls. I added a simple rectangle plastered pool far in the back of my property with only a foot of coping surrounded with grass like it would have been in 1920. I use old fashion plants like rhododendrons and pachysandra.

However, I have added a bathroom that has a different feel than my originals. I wanted the new master bath to look like a dressing room, which was more prevalent in my era and sized house than a master would have been but it does have a very now vanity, retro fitted 1930 dresser, and a grey herringbone tile floor and has the only pot lights, one in the shower and one over the toilet, in the whole house and I did not do a tub like the house's orginal one. I matched the new moulding to the orginal but used PVC not wood or plaster. I had a door made and stained to match our existing style doors and used vintage hinges and knobs.

I also added modern barn door hardware to my neighbor's toss away 1920s doors to replace inconvient hinged doors in my sunroom. From one side they look just like pocket doors that could have been orginal but on the other that are very today...

I also widened our diveway to a two car width from a one car size which is not fitting of this era. But we will be at least a three car family in less than eight years. All these are renovating not restoring but being a purist did not work with our family situation or honestly budget and time.

i will say that my motto is to try and do no harm that another owner can not easily change back to the orginal way. This means I can paint and furnish however I like and even add modern tile in places that did not still have orginal functioning ones left. I will say I love having a lit shower, the other two orginal showers have no light in them but I will not add a pot light to the plaster but it is tempting after enjoying my new well lit addition shower.

i think the old house forum can be a place for those trying to stay true to their home's era and for those who need to make their old home work as they need it to for their modern life. Both situations need help and advice, so it is ok either way.

I agree, when it comes to kitchens and baths in particular that it doesn't make sense to live in a house museum with cabinetry and appliances that don't meet modern ergonomic or efficiency/safety standards. Most people don't want to have a toilet with a high wooden tank and pull chain or a monitor top refrigerator.

On the other hand, I have a hard time looking at a bathroom with extra large format tiles and accent stripes of glass mosaics in any old house, or free standing tubs or neo_Edwardian style baths and kitchens in a mid-century ranch, and considering it anything but a renovation. (And I have trouble even considering it appropriate, which gets me into trouble with people who want to do it--if it's a done deal I keep my mouth shut).

I also think it's telling that there have been so few responses on this thread. Maybe people don't know what they want it to be.

Pal, should glass and large formate tiles only be used in homes built after their production? Many old homes predate baths so what finishes could be appropriate?

I ended up not using the appropriate tile to my house's era because today's even most expensive subway and hex tile look cheap and thin compared to my real thing. I thought the appropriate choices look even worse than the inappropriate more trendy options. If I had none of the real thing in the house it would have worked but not right down the hall from authentic tile. Kinda like having a fake Christmas tree next to a real tree. A fake tree can look great on its own in a room but near a real tree it looks so bad.

Give it time. Everything always swings back and as younger people start renovating, I think we'll see more interest in restoration.

Also, as more older houses in older neighborhoods become easier to afford for younger people, there will be more interest in something different. And what is more different than not taking everything out and painting? Going back to what was originally there. Looking for vintage fixtures, finding out what types of bathrooms used to be in the homes, vintage kitchens, etc.

I guess I'm an optimist, but as long as there are books and articles (and pictures) of older homes and how beautiful they were...there will be someone wanting to restore them.

I dont know if I quite buy the myth that young people dont like old and vintage - my early 1900s urban so-called "creative class" neighborhood hasnt gotten the memo. The 1990's style old antique stores with old early 1900s wood furniture and stuff I think just priced themselves out of existance - they reached a limit to what people wanted to pay, and the market corrected itself. Also Im just not seeing much of anything I want in a lot of antique malls and flea markets anymore - I think the good stuff is largely in people's collections now which leaves a lot of junky little knick-knacky stuff at high prices in the stores or furniture that are not really great specimens. Example - LuRay plates - scratched up for $20 each? Uh, no thank you! It doesnt mean people still don't like or want the stuff - just that Im not going to spend much time going to antique malls or yard sales anymore on the off chance that I MIGHT find something I like at a price I want to pay. Although it does happen occasionally - so I havent totally given up on it, just not that big a part of my life anymore.

Meanwhile.... its the architectural salvage and industrial antiques that command high prices - at least around here, in my neck of the woods - and anything midcentury or "atomic" looking.

At auctions here, unless it is a fine specimen you can't give away first period furniture from 1780s -1830s. Not a run of the mill dresser or table, anyway.

I think much of the good stuff has moved out typical of brick and mortar antique stores and is sold online pr is sold at specialty shops. I think online venues such as eBay and 1st dibs have both educated people and overly raised expectations to some extent about what things are worth.

Roarah, I don't think it is inappropriate to have a modern kitchen and bath in an older house, it used to be done all the time. But the problem now is that many "new" styles are really reworked Edwardian or Victorian designs, so they are not new, they are mimicking old.

I would much rather see a modernistic bath in an antique house than I would see a clawfoot type freestanding tub and dimensional subway tile and elaborate chair rail in a modest rancher, but you see the latter all the time.

But neither is a restoration, either. A restoration bath should look like it possibly belongs in the house as original.

Even these baths, in a Neutra house that was restored based upon original documents and correspondence with the children of the original owners are a bit "new" looking, rather than strict restorations. The countertops and faucets are nicer, the overall quality is probably better; the tile format is correct, but they are nicer than what would have probably been basic Daltile or American Olean 2x4 porcelain. The "correct" faucet design is probably still available but so cheaply made you would not want to put it in a $2M house, which this is. And people don't want Formica countertops and a sink mounted with a Hudee ring, for the most part.

The originals may have been more like this, which is not Neutra. Although the Neutra house may have had nicer vanities like above.

I haven't been around for a long time, we have been too busy renovating. But every once in a while I stop back in. But this thread really makes me want to comment.

What do I wish this thread could be.... it is simple. A source for for inspiration, as well as a place I can go for advice when we get stuck.

With that being said the rest of this site, besides this forum over the past 7 years since we have started our entire diy, whole house renovation, has become extremely disappointing. The OP made me laugh as about 9 months ago I was so stuck on picking a color in our bedroom I went and posted in the decorating forum asking for help. I even said it was an old house and full of color, we need a color, not white. Just about everyone's advise was "white with hints of blah blah blah". (We went bright yellow with red trim. ) This was even after my husband made me promise not to post any longer after I had asked for advise for hanging a microwave in the kitchen forum at one point and they made me feel as if I were committing a mortal sin. And no I also don't have or want granite near my kitchen.

Anyway, I would hate for the old house portion to fully go away. It certainly isn't what it used to be,but I have another 7 years or so to go on our renovation. I could use all the help and encouragement there is. And our house is OLD. They dated it back in the 70's, they could only guesstimate then that it was about 250 years old. It is not fancy, old log cabin that has been added onto piecemeal over the centuries.

The adobe house I currently occupy was built before electricity, before
city water and sewer, before distributed gas. I like the house, but I'm not
going to get crazy about restoration, nor will I rip off the modern
laundry room/bath addition.

My goal is to make it look like it's always
been well-cared for, and upgraded with decent modern conveniences when those conveniences became available ...
I'm respecting the genre, but I have to live here, so the AC stays and the curbless shower is going to happen real soon.

I'm into keeping old houses in use as much as possible, because a teardown is wasteful and un-green.

I'm in favor of updating with minimal destruction of their original features, but realizing that not all the old stuff was well-made - someone was shrieking about the horror of a San Francisco remodel that "ripped out the exquisite fireplace carvings". One look at the demolition showed that the 'carvings' were painted paper, pressed into molds, for a poorly done fireplace. Nothing worth restoring.

Not all old houses were well-maintained. Original features have rotted or been ripped off and sold. And we all know that a full-up restoration either requires a skilled DIY owner, or someone with enough money to hire skilled craftsmen.

And the old floor plans don't get along with modern life.

And the old floor plans don't get along with modern life.

The tide is turning on that one, lazy. I submit the comments here for your inspection, for example:

http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/before-and-after-a-blend-of-new-and-old-style-in-a-california-bungalow-244610

Five years ago they would all have agreed with you.

I would like to see a definition for "old" on the header, I don't consider anything after 1940'ish to qualify as an old house. Many of the posts are about mid-century house, maybe they should have there own section. And I do agree with Writersblock that open concept will soon be seen as dated.

I Think MCM qualify as old homes that deserve care and respect for preservation no less than a turn of the century Victorian or Tudor does. Twenty years ago a 1920s house was considered old so why would you not know call a 1940's house old too? Closing the door to people with houses still over 30 years old because they are not old enough will only make this site even slower!

I don't consider anything after 1940'ish to qualify as an old house.

And a house built after 1940 is 75 years old and a house built in 1965 is 50 years old.

Not considering something of this age worth discussing, or thinking that something 50-75 years old is open game for gut renovation every time because it's not old is exactly the mentality that ruined so many Victorian and Edwardian houses in the 1950s.

I don't believe every house has to be maintained as a time capsule. I dont believe any house really is ever a complete time capsule unless it's a museum. But there has to be a point when one asks oneself why XYZ is not worth saving and needs to be replaced with whatever is current no matter how bad it looks in the house. (And people don't think it's bad until later and its not the latest thing any more).

There are enough options out there that a new kitchen or bath could look completely compatible with almost any age of house, without necessarily trying to be a period recreation, and without breaking the bank. Daltile ceramic or porcelain tiles in basic sizes cover the bases for practically any period of bathroom from after about 1920 and if you are okay with non rectified subway, you can do a compatible bath from before 1920.

The Old House forum should at the very least support those who want to restore and renovate compatibly with their older houses instead of leaving them to the vagaries of fashion in the general Kitchen and Bath forums. I don't think this necessarily has to be a forum for complete purists--I don't think it is now, but apparently some people do (?). Many people may beg to differ but I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to maintain or recreate something from as recently as the 1980s. There is really nothing "wrong" with some of it, Late- and Post-Modernism can be kind of interesting. It's just that most people hate with with the same knee jerk reaction that they hate anything that they think is too old Not to hate and too new to not look back on as just another period in design history.

Here's the reason I would recommend a cut-off date around the 40's. This was the period that saw a substantial change in building practices to be the same as those that are in use today. Post WWII the building boom encouraged speed and economy over quality and craftsmanship. New house forums speak to the same issues and building techniques of that era. Houses built prior to that era were build differently and so owners need information about those building types and techniques to solve the issue they run into.

I agree about building techniques, but I am not really sure that most people are doing a lot of building in old techniques when they restore. Most of the time it's about getting the proper surfaces. For example, I am not sure anybody who is replastering the inside of an 19th century house is hand splitting lathe and mixing horsehair in with their plaster and making paint from scratch. Most people aren't doing full gauge plaster on plaster board at all anymore, they are doing skim coat or even dry wall and just attempting to get the appearance the same.

So I don't think that it matters that a house from 1946 and 2016 are built more similarly than a house from 1876 is to 1946--because a house from 1946 still looks a lot different stylistically from a house in 2016, and that's what most people are dealing with. And really, in my opinion, a bathroom from 1946 is probably more appropriate to a house from 1876--because it could have been the first modern bathroom--than a bathroom from 2016 is in a house from 1946, even though functionally they may be more similar than before.

" In fact, one of the things that makes me shudder the most are old houses around here--a fair number of bungalows, for example--where people knock out the dining room wall, typically with the gorgeous oak buffet built-ins, to make a "breakfast bar" for the kitchen. Just terrible and so sad."

Emory, I can relate to this. Some years ago, my KD neighbor wanted to do this in our kitchen. We had asked for help and the plans he drew up would remove the wall between the kitchen and dining room to make a great room. I have never been a fan of open floor plans, as I like walls and doors, plus my house is 99 years old (four square). I asked about it on the kitchens forum, and iirc several people actually agreed with me that it was not appropriate for my house. We ended up holding off on the remodel as we didn't really have the $ at the time.

We are finally ready to start the remodel, and I am struggling with design. We are keeping the wall, but I find myself drawn to more modern interiors nowadays. I live in Prairie land but don't want a Prairie/Arts and Crafts kitchen. Sigh. But we won't have an island - no room!! ETA: and we are doing cabinets that match the original blond woodwork throughout the house.

To punctuate palimpest's point. My 300 year old house had an outhouse for a bathroom until my mother-in-law was 16. She fondly remembered getting indoor plumbing and the addition being added for the bathroom in the late 30's. So, while we are not bringing our house back to the 1700's here, we are making it "old-ish", if that makes sense. Our theory is a house that is old is made to evolve and change with it's owners. I don't want new or anything that really dates it as trendy, but I certainly am not going to give up indoor plumbing, electricity, or cook over an open hearth to live in a museum.

Sure I agree that we aren't building with old-time techniques. But when you understand how they built it is easier to perform repairs, evaluate problems and chose materials that will have success. An example would be an HVAC

Crazy computer.... An example would be an HVAC tech that wanted to use Portland cement to seal around a vent pipe in early 1800's brick. Elastic caulk was the better more appropriate solution.

It's interesting because my current house built in 1965 was not constructed all that much differently than the house I lived in built in 1838. The older house was all brick construction with plaster applied directly to the party walls between row houses. The 1965 house is concrete block with plaster applied right on the block. Single pane windows with sashes build specifically for each opening in the 1838 house, most of the windows in the 1965 house were originally sheets of glass held into the openings with quarter round,with ventilating windows here and there. Slightly underframed and springy floors, Stairs that we can't figure out how they stay up, under serviced electrically and HVAC wise, uninsulated roofs both houses.

writersblock

And the old floor plans don't get along with modern life.

The tide is turning on that one, lazy. I submit the comments here for your inspection, for example:

*********************

The chopped-up warren of rooms that were the servant's domain, the teensy closets (I have ZERO closets), and some other things drove me nuts when I was managing and rehabbing old housing.

I'm fine with a kitchen that has a door and walls ... but it needs to have windows and storage space.

**********************

MCM is definitely fun to discuss because it was such a break with the old styles, and so distinctive.

As a newbie to this neck of GardenWeb, I was surprised at the houses popping up as "old" - not many relatable issues between my turn-of-the-seventeenth-century farmhouse and the slew of mid-twentieth houses before me.

And, as mentioned, not everyone in an old (or really old) house wants it preserved.

Perhaps the historic preservation segment ought to be separated out from those with goals more modern-day. Obviously there are still similar construction methods, but if the intent is to restore the needed information is different from those looking to replace.

"How do I fix these old windows" vs "How do I get these old windows out and new ones in with out damaging the lathe walls"

Or, age groupings by date (not age)

Pre-lead and/or asbestos, pre-electricity, pre-running water/indoor plumbing.

A newbie's $0.02